From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:23:16 EDT 1994 Article: 220 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:25:05 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 42 Message-ID: <35ckdh$k97@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article Lq2@netcom.com, pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes: >I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can >anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, >hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. >The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be >separate knives. >At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped >handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick. Buying knives is a very hard proposition. When I go backpacking I carry a Swiss Army Super Tinker, and a 7" bladed custom made bowie knife. If you want a big knife, get one that's completely flat ground, and which has a balance forward of the guard. This will allow you to chop. The Cold Steel Trailmaster bowie is a good example, except that it's very prone to rust, and is heavier/thicker than you really need. But once you've seen one you'll understand what a flat ground blade is, and you'll know how to evaluate other knives. The USMC fighting knife (aka. KaBar) is another good knife, when properly sharpened, but it's not very useful for chopping. It's a good car/pack knife however since it's cheap, will hold an edge well, is more easily re-sharpened than a stainless steel knife, and it's reliable. A really great knife was the Moran-Warner Rio Grande bowie. This was a fully flat ground, carbon steel blade. It had all the earmarks of a superb chopper. Unfortunately it was discontinued, but you still see them at gun shows. They sold for about $100.00. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:23:59 EDT 1994 Article: 255 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35ckdh$k97@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:34:01 GMT Lines: 28 The best all purpose "knife" I ever had was the Leatherman tool. This had a 3" knife (good for many camping chores, but not all), a can opener, phillips screwdriver and two flat head screwdrivers, a file and a few other attachments. The whole thing unfolds into a pair of pliers/ wire cutters, and on the spine is a ruler that (while being a bit hard to read in certain light conditions) had both inches and centimeters. It was the most useful tool I ever had and I always had it with me. But I was working on my car in the twilight one evening, and I didn't notice it sitting on the bumper in the low light as I cleaned up my other tools. Either someone took it that night or the next morning, or it fell off the bumper the next time I drove the car! Bummer. To replace it, some friends bought me a similiar "multi-tool" from SOG. What appealed to me about this tool was that the pliers didn't have the edges facing my palms like the leatherman tool did. The leatherman tool can really leave some deep red marks on your palms when you use those pliers! But once I actually tried using the SOG tool, I realized what a pain in the butt it is to unfold and use. I don't like the SOG tool. Gerber also has one, with spring loaded pliers. It also looks like a hassle to operate. Stick with the leatherman tool, I swear by 'em. Life- time guarantee too! And they can be had for a little as $35. I'm gonna have to pick another one up somewhere. If you wear it on your belt, you'll be amazed how often you use it. Just keep a rag handy to wrap around the handles when you need the pliers! rdh From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Mon Sep 19 19:08:28 EDT 1994 Article: 392 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!jfogh From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:56:19 GMT Organization: NWNEXUS, Inc. - Making Internet Easy Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35j5lj$nfl@news.halcyon.com> References: <35imkb$sol@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com I have three knives that I swear by: Spyderco Endura Clipit. Perfect for cutting army greenline, and small general purpose chores. Leatherman tool. The ultimate gadget knife. I have heard good things about the SOG and the Gerber, but Gerber lost me with all the funky little screw driver bits. Randall Model-1 7". This is my "combat" knife. This is what I carry to the field. I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. I paid $250 bucks for this knife and I have used a lot. Knives are special purpose tools. If you need to pound tent stakes get a hammer, if you need to chop wood get an axe, if you need to clear brush get a machette. In a pinch you can use a knife for these tasks, but I wouldn't make a habit out of it. - John From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Mon Sep 19 19:12:47 EDT 1994 Article: 392 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!jfogh From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:56:19 GMT Organization: NWNEXUS, Inc. - Making Internet Easy Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35j5lj$nfl@news.halcyon.com> References: <35imkb$sol@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com I have three knives that I swear by: Spyderco Endura Clipit. Perfect for cutting army greenline, and small general purpose chores. Leatherman tool. The ultimate gadget knife. I have heard good things about the SOG and the Gerber, but Gerber lost me with all the funky little screw driver bits. Randall Model-1 7". This is my "combat" knife. This is what I carry to the field. I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. I paid $250 bucks for this knife and I have used a lot. Knives are special purpose tools. If you need to pound tent stakes get a hammer, if you need to chop wood get an axe, if you need to clear brush get a machette. In a pinch you can use a knife for these tasks, but I wouldn't make a habit out of it. - John From fi017@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Mon Sep 19 19:13:41 EDT 1994 Article: 377 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!fi017 From: fi017@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bob Cathar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 19 Sep 1994 00:39:39 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35imkb$sol@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: eeyore.ins.cwru.edu I have the carbon steel Marine Kbar too. Great knife! I'll be taking it along with me. But those who want to "survive *and* thrive" probably wouldn't care to use such a knife for all their food-prep needs. Here's the "best" bet for that. Get a Chinese cook's knife at an asian grocery, etc. Mine weighs 6.5 oz. and has a 4.25" wooden round handle. The blade measures 1.75" x 8" and yes, it's carbon steel. There are cool chinese characters stamped into the blade too--just the accessory for your sks or ak. This knife wouldn't be good for dressing game, but for chopping and slicing meat and vegetables you can't beat it. You hold it in the hand with the round handle in your palm and the back of the blade resting against your curled middle finger. The thumb and first finger grip the sides of the *rectangular* blade (don't hold it only by the handle). Cost? 6-10 dollars. a few years back. There are different sizes. the carbon steel models maybe cheaper now that everyone has got the stainless bug. This is a fine tool. Probably a wicked slasher-weapon to boot :) -- --Bob "Don't Tread On Me" From tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com Mon Sep 19 19:15:02 EDT 1994 Article: 251 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!Starbase.NeoSoft.COM!tapeworm From: tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com (Joe Bushong) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:53:10 GMT Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 684 5969 Lines: 62 Message-ID: <35e086$s2j@uuneo.neosoft.com> References: <35cvt8$g50@shemesh.tis.com> <35d3ak$mcv@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: starbase.neosoft.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] *WARNING* everything that follows is just MY opinion! (And I hate having to start every sentence with "In my opinion,..." so it's implied from now on) The most important thing about a "survival knife" is having it with you in a survival situation. Period. It doesn't matter if you've got an awsome outragously expensive knife in the car, at home, whatever... If something bad happens - you need a knife immediately and have to have it on you. To me, this limits the discussion to medium sized folding knives for unplanned events. I carry a Swiss army knife 24-7 (OK...whenever I am wearing pants...). I have owned my Victornox Huntsman for many (+5 now) years. I find it to be the perfect size for keeping in my back pocket alongside my wallet. It is the perfect width to hold easily in the hand (mine at least...). The giant Swiss Army knives are MUCH to wide to be useful...and half of the junk on them is dead weight anyways. The Huntsman has the perfect selection of tools. The saw is excelent (cross cut?)and will cut down a 3-4 inch tree. I bought the Boy Scout version (heh...I was a Boy Scout at the time...never knock an organization that teaches honor as a virture) and feel that ALL Swiss Army Knives should have a Philips-head screwdriver in place of the corkscrew. The Swiss might carry bottles of wine with them for all I know but in the "real world", the corkscrew is pretty much useless. Both the large and the small blades can be made extremely sharp (I use a Lansky sharpening kit with a diamond Fine hone as my final step). All in all, the perfect knife. Very moderately priced at $30 or so. Also makes a great gift (trust me...they will love you for it...) The Leatherman tools are very nice but are more of "a pair of pliers with a knife on them" than the other way around. In my day-to-day life, I just don't seem to need a pair of needle nosed pliers all that frequently, and when I do, I bring a pair along. I know people who swear that the Leatherman tool is the greatest invention since fire, and if it works for them...who am I to argue. I would also consider the Spyderco Clipits series as great carry knives. They can be opened with one hand (with practice this becomes automatic). They come in a variety of sizes (go with the Zytel plastic handled ones, the stainless ones are heavy and expensive). My only reservation is not being able to sharpen the serrated versions but I have had friends tell me that the special SpyderEdge pattern never seems to get dull. And did I mention the full range of handle colors...All in all, probably a much better "knife" than my Swiss, but definitely not a better "tool". I also own a Cold Steel SRK sheath knife which I would carry if there wasn't a stigma against large, openly carried, sheath knives. The SRK is an excelent knife and will do everything that an expensive hand-made knife will do. Cost me $50, which is an tremendous value/cost ratio. K-Bars are the same way and they are available everywhere. I just can't see putting any hard use on a knife that I couldn't afford to replace ,and if you own a "work knife" what's the point of you having the "good knife"? The Carbon-V steel will rust in the places you scratch off the black coating. The handle on the SRK (and all Cold Steel knives) is perfect. They have knife ergonomics down pat. It feels exactly right. If it ever came down to a "me and one item" senario, my SRK is what I would bring. I don't think there can be any higher praise than that. If you are interested in the best prices for knives, email me. I have a couple of knife catalogs. Tapeworm From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Mon Sep 19 19:15:41 EDT 1994 Article: 392 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!jfogh From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:56:19 GMT Organization: NWNEXUS, Inc. - Making Internet Easy Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35j5lj$nfl@news.halcyon.com> References: <35imkb$sol@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com I have three knives that I swear by: Spyderco Endura Clipit. Perfect for cutting army greenline, and small general purpose chores. Leatherman tool. The ultimate gadget knife. I have heard good things about the SOG and the Gerber, but Gerber lost me with all the funky little screw driver bits. Randall Model-1 7". This is my "combat" knife. This is what I carry to the field. I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. I paid $250 bucks for this knife and I have used a lot. Knives are special purpose tools. If you need to pound tent stakes get a hammer, if you need to chop wood get an axe, if you need to clear brush get a machette. In a pinch you can use a knife for these tasks, but I wouldn't make a habit out of it. - John From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Mon Sep 19 19:16:46 EDT 1994 Article: 437 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 19 Sep 1994 17:40:31 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 74 Message-ID: <35kief$5sc@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35ja5u$6mt@uuneo.neosoft.com> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article 6mt@uuneo.neosoft.com, tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com (Joe Bushong) writes: +John F. Fogh (jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com) wrote: +: I have three knives that I swear by: + +: Spyderco Endura Clipit. Perfect for cutting army greenline, and small +: general purpose chores. I carry this at all times in urban settings, but in wilderness settings I found the non-serrated swiss army knives more useful. Since I carry an 8" sheath knife in the wilderness having thy spyderco & swiss army both is overkill. + +: Leatherman tool. The ultimate gadget knife. I have heard good things +: about the SOG and the Gerber, but Gerber lost me with all the funky +: little screw driver bits. I find this tool very useful in urban settings, but nearly useless in the wilderness conpared with my Swiss Army Super Tinker. + +: Randall Model-1 7". This is my "combat" knife. This is what I carry to +: the field. I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. I paid +: $250 bucks for this knife and I have used a lot. + +I never equated expensive with useless...(Did I???). I have nothing +against buying top of the line gear when it is markedly better that +everything else available. All that I said was: + +Is there anything that your $250 Randall made knife can do better than my +$50 Cold Steel SRK? Yes. The Randall is hot-forged carbon steel, with the edge packed. This results in a tougher knife, by which I mean it will bend, but not break, and the edges are less prone to chipping out. A bent knife is still useful, but a broken knife is not. The randalls typically have better grips and balance than factory knifes, although the factories are slowly learning. My biggest gripe against Randalls is that all the bowie patterns are saber ground, not flat ground, so they aren't as sharp as they could be for the blade size. I had a #1 which was beautiful, but it was not as sharp or as tough as the Fisk bowie I now carry. Of course it was about half the price too. In terms of cheaper knives which have the features I like in expensive custom knives, here are a few knives I've seen that I liked: Moran-Warner Rio Grande bowie - spear point, flat ground, carbon steel bowie. Discontinued, but very nice. SOG Tigershark bowie - a large bladed, flat ground, rolled edge knife, with almost acceptable balance. "Arkansas bowie" - by BlackJack, this was advertised but I've heard it had problems, or the company had problems, and it was never released. It was a 7" bladed flat ground bowie designed by master bladesmith James Crowell. Cold Steel Trailmaster bowie - way too heavy and large, but the early models were extremely sharp and tough. Still, this design is what a bowie should be, albeit in oversized form. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From jat@cup.hp.com Mon Sep 19 21:17:16 EDT 1994 Article: 474 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!cello.hpl.hp.com!hplntx!hpscit.sc.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!jat From: jat@cup.hp.com (Joe Talmadge) Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Sender: news@cupnews0.cup.hp.com (News Admin) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 22:04:01 GMT Reply-To: jat@cup.hp.com References: <35ckdh$k97@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Nntp-Posting-Host: capella.cup.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0.7] Lines: 22 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 (rdh@arriva.dr.att.com) wrote: > To replace it, some friends bought me a similiar "multi-tool" from SOG. > What appealed to me about this tool was that the pliers didn't have the > edges facing my palms like the leatherman tool did. The leatherman tool > can really leave some deep red marks on your palms when you use those > pliers! But once I actually tried using the SOG tool, I realized what > a pain in the butt it is to unfold and use. I don't like the SOG tool. > Gerber also has one, with spring loaded pliers. It also looks like a > hassle to operate. Stick with the leatherman tool, I swear by 'em. Life- The Gerber is nowhere near the pain-in-the-ass that the SOG is. In fact, it is less of a hassle to operate than even the Leatherman. Basically, the Gerber is stronger than the Leatherman, doesn't hurt your hand when using the pliers, and has a standard plier head. The Leatherman is lighter but has needle-nose pliers. Either is a good choice, but don't be scared off by Gerber's mechanism -- it's not like the SOG. Joe jat@cup.hp.com From jat@cup.hp.com Mon Sep 19 21:20:37 EDT 1994 Article: 478 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!jat From: jat@cup.hp.com (Joe Talmadge) Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Sender: news@cupnews0.cup.hp.com (News Admin) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 22:09:18 GMT Reply-To: jat@cup.hp.com References: <35ja5u$6mt@uuneo.neosoft.com> <35kief$5sc@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Nntp-Posting-Host: capella.cup.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0.7] Lines: 30 Robert Allen (rja@Eng.Sun.COM) wrote: > tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com (Joe Bushong) writes: > +Is there anything that your $250 Randall made knife can do better than my > +$50 Cold Steel SRK? > Yes. The Randall is hot-forged carbon steel, with the edge packed. > This results in a tougher knife, by which I mean it will bend, but > not break, and the edges are less prone to chipping out. A bent > knife is still useful, but a broken knife is not. The randalls > typically have better grips and balance than factory knifes, although > the factories are slowly learning. My biggest gripe against Randalls > is that all the bowie patterns are saber ground, not flat ground, > so they aren't as sharp as they could be for the blade size. I had > a #1 which was beautiful, but it was not as sharp or as tough as the > Fisk bowie I now carry. Of course it was about half the price too. In addition, just pick up a Randall in one hand and the SRK in the other, and your questions will be answered immediately. Don't get me wrong, the SRK is a great knife: inexpensive, strong, sticky handle, sharp. In fact, I own an SRK. But the Randall just *feels* like it's in another league, even before you even cut with it. The Randall just _wants_ to cut -- this is hard to describe, you just have to handle it. In any situation where I needed a lot of cutting power along with lots of speed & quickness, there's no doubt which I'd choose. My Gryphon M30A1 feels the same way compared to the SRK. Joe jat@cup.hp.com From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Tue Sep 20 21:45:38 EDT 1994 Article: 512 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!jfogh From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 20 Sep 1994 05:11:45 GMT Organization: NWNEXUS, Inc. - Making Internet Easy Lines: 20 Message-ID: <35lquh$2h3@news.halcyon.com> References: <35imkb$sol@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <35j5lj$nfl@news.halcyon.com> <35ja5u$6mt@uuneo.neosoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com In article <35ja5u$6mt@uuneo.neosoft.com>, >Is there anything that your $250 Randall made knife can do better than my >$50 Cold Steel SRK? > >I am not trying to get into a "My knife is better" argument. Whatever >works for you and you can afford, heh - I'm happy for you. I think >everyone should have at least a couple of things which they are >completely happy with...mine are my knives... > I have a cold steel recon tanto as well, and I like it very much. However the SRK and the Tanto both lack a guard. This might not seem important, but it gives you better control over the knife and margin of safety. It's largely a matter of preference. I also did not like the material that the grip is made of. Once again a mater of preference. I expect to have and carry my randall for the rest of my life, I would not expect an SRK to last. - John From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Tue Sep 20 21:46:35 EDT 1994 Article: 513 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!jfogh From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 20 Sep 1994 05:22:32 GMT Organization: NWNEXUS, Inc. - Making Internet Easy Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35lrio$2q1@news.halcyon.com> References: <35j5lj$nfl@news.halcyon.com> <35kpjf$hpj@male.EBay.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com In article <35kpjf$hpj@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, > >>I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. > >What I said was "the more you pay for a knife, the less you will use it". > >Obviously, this is a generalization. If you're one of the few and >studdly that actually put a Randall to work, than my little "law of knife >selection" certainly doesn't apply to you. > >Greg > I understand. Frequently Expensive does equal useless. If my randall was up on the mantle instead of on my web gear it would be useless. Anyone who has bought an expensive, quality knife and doesn't want to put it to work let me ask you this: How much is your life worth? If I am in a survival situation I think want the best tools I can afford. I'd feel pretty silly suffering because I brought a $14 dollar knife that wasn't up to the task while leaving the $200 life saver at home. - John From marlo@lib.nmsu.edu Tue Sep 20 22:05:09 EDT 1994 Article: 581 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.sandia.gov!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!dns1.NMSU.Edu!pc-branson1.NMSU.Edu!marlo From: marlo@lib.nmsu.edu (Marlo Brown) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:23:26 GMT Organization: NMSU Branson Library Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-branson1.nmsu.edu In article pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes: >From: pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) >Subject: Knives for Wilderness >Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:15:22 GMT >I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can >anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, >hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. >The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be >separate knives. >At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped >handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick. >Thanks > - Gary - I thought I'd list a few favorites: -Leatherman Tool ($35-50) - an excellent all purpose tool. It's essentially a pair of folding stainless steel pliers with a knife blade, file, awl and several screwdriver blades in the handles. It's sturdy, well made and extremely functional. The special design lets you "lock" any tool in the open position by closing the handles. As long as you grip to tool, the blade can't close on your hand. Comes in a very small, sturdy leather belt case. -Spyderco lightweight folders ($30-60) The Delica, Endura, Rescue and Merlin are lightweight folders with G2 stainless blades and Zytel handles. They come with pocket clips and are made for one-handed opening/closing. The serrated models cut like there's no tomorrow. Eric Remmen up in the Seattle area teaches a course in defending oneself with the Delica. I haven't taken the course but think the Delica would be useful to a trained individual. These knives are *much* sturdier than their looks suggest. -Gerber LST ($16-25) LST stands for light, smooth, tough. These little folders are simply, in my opinion, the best single-blade pocketknives in their class. Too small for the fast draw/open of a Spyderco, but extremely useful as an everyday tool. I've heard of Special Forces types sewing a small pocket on their fatigues to carry LSTs. One of the best knives for this price on the market. I bought mine in 1986 onboard the USS TARAWA and love it. I understand the new ones feature a pocket clip similar to Spyderco's. -Ontario Knife Co. machetes ($12-20) - The 18" blade model used by the military is a good choice. There are also some models put out by Blackie Collins featuring plastic "D" handles and Ontario blades. Blade lengths range from 12" to 22". The grip of the "D" handle was too big for my hand, so I converted the 12" Blackie Collins to an 11" machete with a linen micarta handle, homemade steel rivets in the handle and a plastic scabbard. Machetes are very useful for a big, rough outdoor knife. With their low cost, you won't be afraid to actually *use* the tool. Tramontino of Brasil also makes decent blades at very low prices. -Fighting knives? It would take too long to discuss this topic in this message. My personal fighter was made from a German military blade. I silver-soldered the guard, fitted it with a Pakkawood handle and made a synthetic scabbard of plastic. It suits me, but this is such a personal subject that there are *lots* of different opinions out there. You'll notice there are no custom knives in the list above. I think that much of the custom work coming from people like Ken Largin, Randall, Emerson and others are excellent and exceed the quality of the blades listed above by a good margin. I like low-cost knives, however, because I can buy more than one, leave them in my pack, in the car and in other places and not worry too much about them. I'm not afraid to use them, as I can replace them if something happens to them. In this way, at least I *know* the capabilities of my blades and will have them with me if I ever need them. Marlo From dlewis@nmsu.edu Tue Sep 20 22:06:54 EDT 1994 Article: 583 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.sandia.gov!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!dns1.NMSU.Edu!dlewis From: dlewis@nmsu.edu (David C. Lewis) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 22:09:47 GMT Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM Lines: 54 Message-ID: <35d53b$rc1@dns1.NMSU.Edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dante.nmsu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Gary Trubin (pushkin@netcom.com) wrote: : I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can : anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, : hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. : The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be : separate knives. : At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped : handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick. : Thanks : - Gary - : -- : -------------------------------------------------------------------- : - US Congress regarding its constituency ... or was it Roger Waters? : - "if I had my way : I'd have all of them SHOT!" : ==================================================================== Well, heres my two cents, avoid knives with hollow handles (too fragile, and more for people who wear camoflage to the grocery store.) Be careful about knives with a saw edge on the back, most of the saws aren't effective and weaken the blade (the USAF survival knife is one exception, the notches of the saw aren't very deep and don't really weaken the blade much.) For the blade itself think about a down-swept point (i.e., not a bowie knife) as they are easier to skin animals with. A good length would be about 5 inches although the longer the blade the longer it will stay sharp. As for the material a good stainless steel like 440-C, ATS-34, etc., would make a good knife. The hardness of a blade is usually measured on the Rockwell C scale, 60 is increadibly hard to sharpen but can last a long time, a hardness in the mid to low 50's is probably more appropriate as knives can be more readily sharpened with just hand tools. If a person does buy a serated edge knife they ought to be sure that they know how to resharpen it when it finally does go dull. The handle shouldn't be made out of antler or bone (too easy to break). Material like Packa Wood or Micarta is good. I have heard of leather washer handles rotting when wet, but I have one that has yet to rot that has been wet more than once. A guard is optional, a well designed knife might not need one. The knife should have a full tang, hidden tang knives can be strong but are usually weak because they can hide poor workmanship. Some brands to consider would be custom (if one can afford it), or Buck, Gerber, and Ka-Bar. Of course there are some other good knife companies that I've probably left out. And don't forget pocket knives, a Swiss Army knife (Victorionox and Wenger are the best brands) would probably be more useful than a sheath knife in many situations. And whatever you do 1) don't throw it at anything, 2) don't get in a fight with one (better to run or throw rocks or even use a club), it kind of defeats the purpose of survival i.e., staying alive. Good Luck - DL From jfogh@coho.halcyon.com Wed Sep 21 09:52:43 EDT 1994 Article: 645 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!coho!jfogh From: jfogh@coho.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 21 Sep 1994 06:50:50 GMT Organization: NWNEXUS, Inc. - Making Internet Easy Lines: 24 Message-ID: <35ol4a$brs@news.halcyon.com> References: <35lquh$2h3@news.halcyon.com> <35n32t$3ca@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: coho.halcyon.com >I have a CS Master Tanto, from the Japanese manufacturing run. I >used it in the field briefly, where it was marginally satisfactory >as a tool, until I chipped the edge badly and had to send it back >to get it sharpened. The first time it came back it was not factory >sharp, so I called CS and complained. They had me send it to the >main office, and Jody Sampson personally sharpened and buffed it back >to a razor edge. Since that time I haven't cut anything with it, since >I don't want to chip it again. It's good soley as a martial arts >knife, and even for that the highly polished edge won't bite into >a leather jacket or denim as well as a my home-sharpened carbon steel >knives. > I really like my Recon Tanto, and it's a damn good field knife (I prefer the Randall for it's length, and guard in jungle, dense brush, etc) in desert/plains environments. I would never try to put a razors edge on the blade, even for use as a weapon. Most knives don't have the leverage to make a good slashing weapon, so I wouldn't destroy a tool by making it too sharp. Yes you can do that. If you can shave with your I bet it cuts the first couple of logs really well, but after 20 or so you might want to rethink that. - John From mcoonrod@cup.hp.com Sat Sep 24 05:29:53 EDT 1994 Article: 1000 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!mcoonrod From: mcoonrod@cup.hp.com (Mike Coonrod) Subject: Knives for Wilderness Sender: news@cupnews0.cup.hp.com (News Admin) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:32:55 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: capella.cup.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0.7] Lines: 22 I think that the final verdict is in and the best choices are: 1. Spyderco delica (urban) and Swiss Army Knife with saw blade (Wilderness) 2. Randal #1/6 carbon steel(my choice), or KA-BAR, or Cold Steel SRK 3. Gerber multi-plier or Leatherman tool ***** AND I ALSO WOULD TAKE ******** 4. A light Kurkri or Jungle knife with a blade from 10" to 12" long I have carried my Benchmade Kurkri for years hunting in the wilderness. and It will do just about any cutting chore. Splits a deers chest open like you wouldnt believe and I can make a shelter 100 times faster than with a 6" sheath knife. Carrying four knives (one from each catagory) would get you through just about anything. You would want to add an ez lap diamond knife sharpener, a good 4" medium stone, and a small bottle of oil if you had room. From decastro@netcom.com Thu Sep 29 11:15:26 EDT 1994 Article: 1176 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: knives. hardness ratings and classes. what are they? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: Date: Sun, 25 Sep 1994 23:14:34 GMT Lines: 34 allan@elvis.tamu.edu (Allan Bailey) writes: >What are the hardness ratings for knives/swords etc? >I was thinking about ordering a knife from a mail order place (U.S. Calavry) >but I want to know what the ratings they give mean. >Example: anodized 440 stainless steel. Rockwell C: 51-52 >is this "Rockwell" some rating scale? If so, where can I find info >about it? Rockwell is a measure of hardness of different materials (usually metal). Rockwell C (Rc) 51-52 is a medium-hard temper for steel, suitable for things like knife blades (it is more brittle than, say, an Rc 40-43 steel. Itg will tend to be a bit hard to sharpen, but will hold an edge well in use. You might check in the Materials Engineering section of a good university library. >-- >Allan Bailey, allan@elvis.tamu.edu | "Freedom is not free." _O_ >Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations | allan.bailey@tamu.edu | >Esperanto: MondLingvo, lingvo internacia. | nefud-the-delirious@tamu.edu >GCS d-- H->+++ s g+ a- w+ v-/+ C++++ ULAVIS@$ P+++ L++ E++ N++ >po--- Y++ G+ b++ e++ n+ x+ -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From degroff@netcom.com Thu Sep 29 11:17:26 EDT 1994 Article: 1278 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!degroff From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d) Subject: Re: knives. hardness ratings and classes. what are they? Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 22:36:53 GMT Lines: 46 In article allan@elvis.tamu.edu (Allan Bailey) writes: > >What are the hardness ratings for knives/swords etc? > >I was thinking about ordering a knife from a mail order place (U.S. Calavry) >but I want to know what the ratings they give mean. > >Example: anodized 440 stainless steel. Rockwell C: 51-52 > >is this "Rockwell" some rating scale? If so, where can I find info >about it? > Try metallurgy or materials science... There are a couple different test devices and scales...thus Rockwell C is different from Rockwell A. This is a measure of surface hardness, and instruments to test for it are a point or ball, which can be dropped or pressed into the surface with a meaured force. 440 is a particular type of steel, besides metallurge books, standard handbooks like Machinery Handbook will have most of the common ones and useful details about uses,performance. Another common set of notation which has immediate useful information there are O, A and W alloys which are best hardened and tempered using Oil, Air and Water (or brine) respectivly. It is worth keeping in mind that Hardness is differernt >from Toughness....with many steel alloys you can heat it, plunge it into water, and have a hard object that will break like glass. I have made a small carving blade from a salvaged hacksaw blade that I originally shaped by grinding and breaking by a hammer blow... it can take a fantastic edge, but I know its brittle, and would not try to make and treat a larger blade out of it. Les deGroff> >-- >Allan Bailey, allan@elvis.tamu.edu | "Freedom is not free." _O_ >Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations | allan.bailey@tamu.edu | >Esperanto: MondLingvo, lingvo internacia. | nefud-the-delirious@tamu.edu >GCS d-- H->+++ s g+ a- w+ v-/+ C++++ ULAVIS@$ P+++ L++ E++ N++ >po--- Y++ G+ b++ e++ n+ x+ From Reid.G@Applelink@Apple.Com Fri Sep 30 22:50:36 EDT 1994 Article: 1554 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!decwrl!murky.apple.com!gallant.apple.com!apple.com!NewsWatcher!user From: Reid.G@Applelink@Apple.Com (Greg L. Reid) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Super Leatherman to buy or not? Followup-To: misc.survivalism Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 22:25:52 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <365gok$5vf@crcnis1.unl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 17.127.11.96 In article , decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) wrote: > mshafer@herbie.unl.edu (MICHAEL SHAFER) writes: > > >I just lost my Swiss Champ and am debating whether to but another one > >or to purchase the new Super Leatherman. I have read all the threads > >comparing the SOG, Gerber, and Leatherman and have come to the > >conclusion that neither is perfect and each has a different advantage > >over the other two(its too bad someone doesnt take all the good from > >each unit and make one perfect unit) until the ideal unit is made, the > >Super Leatherman looks to have an edge(no pun intended) over the > >others. Has anyone purchased one yet? If so has the metal grade and > >thickness improved? Is the new locking mechanism a vast improvement? > >I loved my Swiss Champ and used it extensively while camping and > >fishing should I go back? I would like to carry both but then I would > >have to wear suspenders just to keep my pants up... > >Thanks in Advance.. > >Michael > > >"Dr. DeWalt for President" > > > > To quote the rec.guns moderator, "buy them all!" > > > -- > ============================================================================ > decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! > Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... > Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, > I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! > -Don't Tread On Me!- > ============================================================================ -- Buy the SOG Paratool & get another Swiss Champ. I feel the Paratool is better than the Super Leatherman. P.S. I have all three. RotnApple From mcoonrod@cup.hp.com Mon Oct 3 20:16:41 EDT 1994 Article: 1815 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hplntx!hpscit.sc.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!mcoonrod From: mcoonrod@cup.hp.com (Mike Coonrod) Subject: Randall Sender: news@cupnews0.cup.hp.com (News Admin) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:35:36 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: capella.cup.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0.7] Lines: 19 Here are the answers to your Randall questions: 1. Randalls have the reputation because they are functional not pretty. 2. Carbon steel holds an edge longer and is easier to sharpen. Stainless is more brittle but it dosent rust. I like the Carbon and Ive owned both. 3. Randall handles run a little narrow so they fit my small/med hands real well. 4. Brass corrodes. This is good and bad. When It's tarnished, its not shiney like nickle silver. Unless you are a commando and need everything subdued, I would go with the Nickle silver. 5. Sawteeh are a mess to clean after you have cleaned a fish or skinned a deer. They are NOT wood saw teeth on the Randall. They are saw teeth made to saw through the aluminum skin of an aircraft and will not saw wood very well. You would be better served by not getting the saw teeth. They do look cool.