BTP: You mentioned earlier about how you were the GBC chairman during the so-called 'Guru wars' period and how you felt at that time that the movement needed serious reform, that Srila Prabhupada's position as 'king' was being undermined by others. Are you happy now with the way things are? Do you think that Srila Prabhupada's position as king has been restored or do you feel that now that things really haven't changed that much.

Balavanta das: I don't know, I don't really ... being in Alachua and that's where my primary experience is, I don't have as much contact with the more traditional ISKCON temples as other devotees, so I can't say about that directly, except I can say that I'm not satisfied with the way that ISKCON is ... because I think that ISKCON is not as spiritually strong and vibrant as it could be and it should be, and I think that the evidence is all over. Our temples are increasingly ... irrelevant in the larger culture. We used to be on the streets and we had a big impact and we were here and people were talking about us and the Hare Krishna's were part of the culture and the fact that we're not so much that ... in many many parts of the world is a sign of some sort of spiritual disease. Now I don't think that it would be fair for me to be able to say what that is, because to be honest with you I don't have a deep conviction of what that is. I don't want to just talk off the top of my head, but I believe that ... ISKCON definitely has a need for some ... sort ... kind of spiritual upliftment.

BTP: Rejuvenation ...

Balavanta das: ... rejuvenation. It's definitely needed.

BTP: And you ... that's interesting ... did you read the magazine that I left with you ...

Balavanta das: Yes.

BTP: Right. In that, ... we agree with what you're saying, and we feel that this rejuvenation will come from the title ... Back to Prabhupada, going back to the basics - doing what he wanted us to do and keeping him, as you say, the king. That's because our understanding is that what's happening now in ISKCON was predicted by Srila Prabhupada - that if you disobey the order of the acarya, gradually Lord Caitanya's tree will dry up and the things that you're talking about are happening. So our aim is to push Srila Prabhupada and his teachings as being ... the key to everything. What is your feeling?

Balavanta das: Well, I absolutely agree with you that the source of our spiritual energy is Srila Prabhupada. There's no other source. If you want to compare it to a tree, then the nourishment of every one of us comes through him and cannot be obtained independently of him, even though you may say well Prabhupada is not the trunk of the tree, and Prabhupada is not the earth in which the tree is rooted, that may be, but that's irrelevant from our point of view because we cannot make any contact with the earth ... or the roots or the trunk except through him. And so we have to ... and so there's no question, you're absolutely right, the source of our nourishment is Srila Prabhupada, and it is to there that we must ... we have to turn for the solution.

BTP: Do you feel that Srila Prabhupada is available to some young person like me, who's a new person coming into the movement, and people like children - that he's just as available now, through his teachings, as when he was on the planet.

Balavanta das: Absolutely. I think that he always has been to me, and ... there were many years in which ... I didn't have personal direct intimate association with him. In fact when ... as I told you, that time I was running for office, that was the closest that I ever felt to him ... and I think that by that time I had had almost no intimate contact, one-on-one with him. I had been in the room with him a number of times, talking, and I wasn't nearly as close to him as when I was standing at the podium ... and speaking out in a debate for the office of Mayor.

BTP: In other words, that closeness came from serving him, carrying out his instructions. You felt a lot closer there than maybe if you'd been in the same room or even talking with him. Because you were executing his instructions, you felt that he was there.

Balavanta das: That's right. You can be with someone physically, but that's not ... that's not the real test of closeness. If you're with someone spiritually, that's the closeness. And he said that many times, and ... its true, Krishna ...

BTP: ... and you've experienced that ...

Balavanta das: Absolutely.

BTP: The message that we're trying to give with this magazine is to tell everybody now, new people, what you're saying - that just serve Srila Prabhupada and he'll be with you just like he's with everybody else.

Balavanta das: Srila Prabhupada said he was running for 10,000 years so that means that he ... he also said it to us, the householders. So there is a direct ... it's like the telephone ... it's like with the telephone line. You pick up the telephone line and call Los Angeles. You can talk to the person because the telephone line connects you and that other person. By the same fashion there's a spiritual connection between you and every person in the universe. There's a spiritual connection between you and every person anywhere. Because Krishnas within your heart, and Krishnas within my heart, and Krishna has his own identity. So that means that Krishna knows every single word, thought and action that you've ever performed, and knows every word, thought and action I've ever performed - if he wants to reveal to me anything about your thoughts, words and actions, he can because he's deeply within your heart and within mine as well - so the same way, he's within Srila Prabhupada's heart wherever Srila Prabhupada is, and so if he wants to immediately communicate your thoughts or mood or consciousness to Srila Prabhupada he can do so just within not even the blink of an eye - and similarly Prabhupada back to you. So Prabhupada ... and Prabhupada ... anyone who's ... so it's only a question of whether Prabhupada is interested in you. That's the only question, because if Prabhupada's interested in you, Krishna can make him immediately available to you, and you immediately available to him - and Prabhupada's interested in you, if you're interested in him.

BTP: Right. And also one can also say because Prabhupada has said that I'm here for 10,000 years, my teachings etcetera, he's already in one sense already given the order, or given the instruction that he's interested in the universe for the next 10,000 years - that's his mission ...

Balavanta das: Yes.

BTP: ... and it's just for us to respond now.

Balavanta das: Anyone ... that's right. Srila Prabhupada said it's like the sunshine. You can stay in the shade, or you can step out into the sunshine, anyone is free. It's like the statement that the ... devotional service is open to everyone ... it says that everyone may take a bath in the month of March. Some may not be interested, but Srila Prabhupada ... Srila Prabhupada ... there's no question. If your question is can persons now make connection with Srila Prabhupada ... and the answer is unequivocally yes.

BTP: That may be at divergence with the 'official' view.

Balavanta das: Well, I mean ... I'm just speaking my understanding of it. I don't think that that's ... I don't ... if the official GBC policy is that any person cannot have any connection with Srila Prabhupada now, I think that that policy is wrong.

BTP: Right. They say that you can, but only in certain circumstances, and it's not the same unless ... it's not the same ... unless you actually had some ... you know ... you're one of the people who had some contact with Srila Prabhupada before 1977.

Balavanta das: Well I don't think that's ... I don't think that's true ... because ... I think that ... he said the Christians can have contact with Christ, and the Buddhists certainly have contact with Buddha ...

BTP: And the Muslims...

Balavanta das: ... with Mohammed, and ... you know ... the Ramanujacarya people with Ramanuja ...

BTP: That's exactly what we say ...

Balavanta das: ... and the Sankarites with Sankara. And you know what? I pray to Lord Caitanya ... is it ... I'm not his direct disciple. Does that mean that Lord Caitanya doesn't speak to me?

BTP: Oh no, we're not talking about that ... but the ... I think that the point is that ... I don't know if you managed at all to look at ... did you manage to read the other thing that I left with you, because there was Srila Prabhupada's will and stuff like that. So, in that, the point that's made - and you're a lawyer - is that ... and I showed this to another devotee lawyer as well, there's just certain things ... like in the will, Srila Prabhupada makes a statement which ... you can't contest because it's a legal thing, where he states that for the next so many thousand years, all the people in the movement would be initiated by him. Because he mentions the executive directors of his properties in India which he said that ... then later on he said that these instructions are irrevocable, immovable etcetera, the properties in India - they can't be touched - he wanted them to be for 10,000 years, they're his special project. And he then said that the future executive directors ... the succession principle ... the people could only be, he says, my initiated disciples. In other words, that indicates that he wanted that ... like Ramanujacarya, like Jesus Christ, he wanted to remain the guru, for everybody ... so ... and also in law ... when somebody gives an instruction like a final instruction, unless a person revokes or changes that, it remains active, even if he leaves the planet. Just like in the Ramayana ... you may know that when Rama's father passed away, Bharata, who was looking after the throne said to Rama to forget about the exile, your fathers gone now, come. And Rama said because he didn't change his order to me ... just because he's gone does not mean you can change the order ... so the other point that you may have read is that his final instruction regarding initiation was the July 9th letter, and he never revoked or changed that. So our understanding is that we're not dishonoring the disciplic succession by following Prabhupada, because that's ... the instructions that he gave ... he wanted himself to remain as ...

Balavanta das: Well, you know ... as I said, I don't have a deep opinion on this question. I can say this though, Srila Prabhupada did indicate once, that when a devotee had problems with the management of ISKCON. He said that you could ... he said if you're having difficulties living in the association of devotees, you may go live independently, but you should still follow the teachings that I have given. So there's many different ways that ... the basic principles are the same, that one should ... you follow the four regulative principles, should chant the sixteen rounds on your beads, and read Prabhupadas books, chant Hare Krishna. That should be done. And as far as ... and as far as ... I can't see how there can be any two opinions - though that whether one is initiated directly within the present ISKCON structure or a person who has come after Srila Prabhupada disappeared. Whether he's directly initiated or not initiated within that structure ... regardless of what the position of that is, he can certainly have a direct connection with Srila Prabhupada by praying to Prabhupada within his heart.

There's no restriction on reading Prabhupadas books, and Prabhupada is in his books. Prabhupada is personally speaking in ... we have to understand the transcendental nature of this personality. Srila Prabhupada said, when I wrote my books, Krishna came to me and he dictated to me, within the heart, how the book was to be written. So anyone who is in connection with the supersoul is going to be in connection with Prabhupada, anything that Prabhupada said it was ... if you understand, it was coming from the ... supersoul in your heart and my heart. The problem is I interfere with the communication because I'm lording it over with this body, and you're lording it over your body, so we're not allowing the supersoul to speak because we're lording it over this body, so therefore our communications are impure. But Srila Prabhupada was not lording over, he was a complete surrendered soul to Krishna. Therefore Krishna could speak through Srila Prabhupada. So Srila Prabhupada was therefore a person who was within our world, who was the same as Krishna. Not that ... not that I'm saying that Prabhupada was Krishna - he's a servant of Krishna, but Krishna was ... spoke through Srila Prabhupada just as if he was speaking the Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna,. So that everything that Prabhupada said, you can understand ... is the supersoul speaking. The supersoul speaks to you within the heart every day, but when Krishna speaks to you externally through a person such as Srila Prabhupada, especially because you interfere with the communication with the heart through your own contaminated desires and views. So anyone ... so Prabhupada is the external manifestation of the supersoul. So whatever he said was the same as Krishna speaking. So as long as the supersoul is within your heart, you can associate with Srila Prabhupada - all you have to do is turn to the supersoul and pray to Prabhupada and that prayer will be transmitted to him, and he will transmit back to you, and then it's just a question of your surrender.

BTP: Did you feel that ... when I read Prabhupada's books, and when you read Prabhupada's books and we're trying to read them and understand them, there's no difference - we're both ... we can both equally get access and reciprocation from Prabhupada from his books. In other words, there's no ...

Balavanta das: His books are not limited to his disciples, if that's what you're asking, for sure.

BTP: Yes. What I'm saying is that the official GBC policy is that when you read the book, or I read the book, there's a difference because you had an initiation from Prabhupada and I haven't. So that I can't get the same ... because otherwise ... if ... otherwise then you see people could reads Prabhupadas books, and, as Prabhupada said, just by following what I'm saying, you go back to Godhead, right? But they don't necessarily want to endorse that, because if they do then everyone's going to just follow Prabhupadas books and not necessarily come under any manger or institutional structure.

Balavanta das: Well ... but Prabhupadas books do say that one should take initiation.

BTP: Right. Definitely. But our point is that he doesn't say that the person has to be physically alive. So that's ... that's interesting ... you made a very interesting point, a very interesting point You're comparing Jesus ... Prabhupada ... like Jesus or Mohammed, or Buddha, or Ramanujacarya. So, our understanding is like that, he's not another ... or a normal ... not that anybody was normal ... but he was a special acarya in that like the others, he set ... you know ... something up, he gave something forever ...

Balavanta das: I don't think that there is any question about that.

BTP: ... which no-one has ever done. No-one has ever done that.

Balavanta das: I think ... that's right ... so I think that you and I would both have to agree that ideally ... if you ... in Srila Prabhupada's absence, if you could be ... if you could be initiated by someone who he ... who's coming through him, that would be the ideal situation. Someone who's qualified. Right, wouldn't that be ideal?

BTP: Somebody who's qualified to be ...

Balavanta das: ... to be his representative. In other words, Prabhupada didn't mean to stop the disciplic succession. That's the ideal situation. And even if you were to be initiated by someone who's coming ... who was initiated by him, would not preclude you from having direct contact with him. Anymore then being initiated by Prabhupada precludes us from having direct contact with Krishna. You pray to Prabhupada, anybody can do that. But if you feel like there's no-one that you feel is qualified to come from him, then you should pray to him and take your direction directly from him.

BTP: I agree with that, but it's interesting also though - Prabhupada, because his situation was unique ... just like with Jesus Christ, he says that because Jesus Christ was the acarya, and his Bible is active now, his words are active now, the way the disciplic succession or whatever the system continues, is that Jesus ... everybody today is a disciple of Jesus, but the priest represents him, and Prabhupada endorsed that system. In other words, there is no limitation between a guru having a relationship, or initiating somebody, even though he may not be physically present. Because he said ... you know ... he gave his books, his teachings etcetera Just like when you said even when Prabhupada was on the planet, he never met most of his disciples, never saw them. So there's no difference. The difference with Prabhupada was that what he did nobody else before him in one sense didn't do. He gave a whole system of teachings which would remain for thousands and thousands of years, and that would form the basis. In other words, somebody coming to Krishna Consciousness in 10,000 years time would be doing exactly the same thing as somebody who came in 1969. His ... Prabhupadas system of his teachings, and his books, 16 rounds, 4 regs, everything. Nothing was to change. So in that way, if nothing at all changes, our point is that - well obviously the guru is not going to change because nothing else changes.

Balavanta das: I think ... the point that you make ... that I'm not prepared to agree with it .. because as I said, I don't have a strong opinion on it at this point. It's whether or not ... you're point I think is that there is no need for any other initiation because everyone can be initiated by Srila Prabhupada. But the question is ... I mean ... that would stop the normal disciplic succession as it happened from Bhaktivinode to Gaura Kishore down to Srila Prabhupada.

BTP: Right. But the disciplic succession is a system by which the teachings continue to be transmitted. So that the key principal of the disciplic succession is to continue the transmission of the teachings. What happened with Srila Prabhupada that had never happened before is that he was able to continue the transmission of his teachings through his books which before nobody before had ever done. Nobody had ever given a system and said that this is it, this is the final word. Prabhupada did that.

Balavanta das: Yes, but still ... I mean even ...

BTP: ... and he was asked about this directly.

Balavanta das: But even taking the example of Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya certainly didn't require a guru, and yet he became initiated by Isvara Puri.

BTP: I agree, I agree. Everyone should get initiated and have a guru, but we're saying that that person is Prabhupada.

Balavanta das: But ... but Lord Caitanya didn't become initiated by Madhavendra Puri, he became initiated by Isvara Puri because Madhavendra Puri was not present.

BTP: No. But he ... that's interesting ... he became initiated by the person who was the current representative. In other words, you don't jump over. But my point is that Prabhupada, when he explains this in the Bhagavatam, he makes no linkage between current and physical. He says that something is current by virtue of the fact that they're transmitting the knowledge.

Balavanta das: I understand your point. I understand your point. I'm sure that what you're not trying to say is that there will be no more initiations for 10,000 years, that Prabhupada will be the guru for 10,000 years and that there will be no more need for any other initiations.

BTP: No, what happens in the future is up to Krishna ...

Balavanta das: What you're saying is that there is no person at present... qualified or unqualified ... who has been selected ...

BTP: ... by Prabhupada, yes ...

Balavanta das: ... to be the next person in the disciplic succession, and I understand that to be your position. And what I'm saying is that I'm ... I don't really ... I'm not taking a stand in that regard. I don't necessarily agree with you, at the same time, I can understand your position, and I don't necessarily ... I don't condemn your position at this point. I really haven't given it a lot of deep thought. I have assumed, I have always assumed, that Srila Prabhupada ... because I think at one point he said that some, all of my disciples maybe, taking disciples, or whatever, something like that, there was a couple of letters to that effect. I have always assumed that when Srila Prabhupada disappeared from the planet, that some, or maybe all of his disciples, would then be the persons to initiate and that they would be the transparent via medium for Prabhupada and that wouldn't in any way keep the grand-disciples from having a direct relationship with Srila Prabhupada. But on the other hand, in light of all the things that happened ... I can understand your position.

BTP: Right. But the point that I would make is that the reason that I take this position is not based on what happened. It's based on the fact that when I look at Prabhupadas will, and when I look at his final instructions, which he signed, I'm just following that, and when on July 9th when he named ... there's only one place ... you know we have the famous eleven, there's only one place where those eleven are named, only one place, and that's the July 9th letter. And in that letter he says three times, they, the people that these people initiate, will be disciples of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami.

Balavanta das: They were ritviks when they were appointed undoubtedly.

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