Harikesa Maharaja was supposed to phone me, but I got no information of his call. His secretary Radhanath das was visiting the temple to get something. So Isani dd and Hari-ballabhi dd asked me if I wanted to go to see Harikesa Maharaja. I changed into karmi clothes and ran to the car, but by that time Radhanath das had already left. We couldn't catch up to him, but somehow the matajis know the village where Harikesa Maharaja had moved to. He wanted to move since he wanted privacy so he didn't tell anyone where he had moved to. On the way to that village a fox ran across the road and turned around and looked at us. According to Vedic astrological omens that is a sign of success on the journey. We drove around that village where Harikesa Maharaja was supposed to be, but there was no trace. It was looking hopeless. I was praying for some mercy to find him. Somehow we started going around different back streets. On one we spotted the van of Radhanath das. They stopped and said as disciples they would get the sauce, but as a godbrother I could go ahead. As I approached the house I could see the Russian devotee Kamalamala das and Brahmananda Puri das through the window of the 2nd floor of the house. So I went upstairs and rang the bell. Radhanath das opened the door and was shocked and surprised. Harikesa Maharaja was in the bathroom. When he came out he was wearing shirt and pants and a coat as he was preparing to go out. When he saw me he was simultaneously amazed, upset, happy and fearful. He asked how I found him that he had just moved to have a secret hideaway so people wouldn't find him or bother him. I said I made a prayer and somehow we found it. He asked who drove me and when I said Isani dd he told Radhanath das to tell her to go and not to come back and not to tell anyone. Then Harikesa Maharaja told me he was just on his way out, but finally he invited me into his room and we sat down alone. At first things didn't get off the ground very well. But soon the ice was broken and we began to speak. Harikesa Maharaja did most of the talking of which as far as I can remember I am providing below.

I simply presented my coming as not having any big agenda, but just to show my concern about his situation. I was coming as a godbrother and friend. He appreciated that. He expressed that I was welcome, but other devotees coming and trying to see him had harassed him. He said his car was bugged and people don't leave him alone. He wants to be left alone to lead his life. He is emotionally not recovered and he needs time to recover. That he is also very busy and doesn't have time to waste. So he wants his disciples to know that they shouldn't come and disturb him or see him. In the near future he will install a phone in his house with an answering phone and those who want to see him can leave their name and number and with an appointment they can go and see him. He doesn't want people to look for him or try to find him. He wants to be left alone for now. When, after some time, he feels strong enough and recovered then he will begin to give more time for devotees and be available to guide them.

3. His consciousness is very articulate and clear.

I had been praying for his recovering and expected someone who was not very clear minded. Someone who was very emotional with large swings from one emotion to another out of control or something. However, I found Harikesa Maharaja very lucid, clear headed, sure of himself, and forceful. He was expressing things with emotion, but the predominant emotion was a mix of frustration, resentment, anger, tinged with occasional detachment, relief, impatience, intolerance and a certain degree righteousness. He is thinner than normal. I asked him about that and he said he was really sick. He said that no one is understanding him and everyone is presenting things about him, but not actually telling what he is thinking. He was lucid in his discussions and didn't have any trouble communicating. He would tend to express a particular emotion stongly on each separate topic. He didn't shoe any symptom of craziness and his emotions were within control. He said he had been checked by a Psychiatrist who had cleared him as being quite okay and he said that the Doctor had said those who asked for her to do the checkup seemed paranoic and mentally disturbed. We are dealing with a person who apart from expressing emotional weakness at the present moment is very forceful and articulate.

Harikesa Maharaja informed me that he had died. Just as the SB states he had wound up all his connections with the material world---leaving all his designations. He had left his body and was dead. He said Sacinandana Swami's Doctor disciple (he couldn't remember the name, but said that Sacinandana Swami would remember it) was there and could confirm that. He was out of his body for some minutes and then he came back. When he came back he didn't fit in with the old situation anymore. Since he had given up these things he didn't want them back. He said he had a new subtle body, new aura and 50% of his physical body was the same. He said his soul was the same. Initially he was in a highly emotional state and in that state he said and did things some of which he now regrets. He told me that he had a physical collapse and no doctor said he had a nervous breakdown. He doesn't know why that is being said.

Upset that they destroyed tape. He said he called 17 disciples. When he saw them he felt overwhelmed with emotion for them and embraced them. He said he explained his ideas, but later they destroyed the tape. He explained how he felt Monika was an ideal match for him and they wanted to get married. He was feeling that his message wasn't getting out because he wrote some letters, but they were never sent by Bhakta Vatsalya das and one other servant. All he could do was send two hand written faxes. He said he is not on COM or email. That he doesn't like email anymore. He also said he is getting some kind of phone which will have internet connection and he would be able to send some communications out.

He repeated his request to be left alone and not to be bothered now. He said he felt the devotees were being like CIA and tracking him down. That there were threats to kidnap him or Monika. He warned that he has discussed with the local Police Commissioner and has a hot number to call him any time day or night. If anything threatened him or Monika it was pre-arranged that he could get immediate protection from the Police.

Harikesa Maharaja's turning point and main reason he says he feels cheated is that he requested some time to recuperate. He didn't want to be suspended or removed or put on probation. He explained that they (EC ) asked him to resign, but he asked why he should. So then they asked him to take a Leave of Absence. He said that previously he was sick and was given some time to recuperate. This time his collapse was much worse and it would take longer to recuperate. So why couldn't they just leave things as they were while he recuperates. When they decided to suspend him as a GBC taking away his positions and to put him on Probation as a Guru then he felt cheated. Why couldn't they have given him a vacation to recuperate and when he was better he could simply resume his duties? He expressed strong sentiments that this is the way they treat some one after 30 years. Therefore, he said he didn't want any more to do with ISKCON as an institution. He was now decided to be out of ISKCON. I mentioned to him that the EC had been there ready to discuss with him. He said they came for 1.5 hours to discuss, but he got bored talking with them and ended it. Then when they were walking with him they started to interogate him about so many things. He said he was emotionally weak and physically sick so how they could cross examine him like that while he was walking from the car? It was almost intolerable for him. He doesn't want to be cheated any more so he decided to be out of ISKCON. I mentioned that 6 months earlier as Chairman of the GBC if he had been faced with a similar situation in another GBC he would have done the same thing. He accepted that, but said now he apologizes for that to his disciples and devotees. He said now he does not want to act like that anymore. He wants to be more loving and caring for devotees. He also feels betrayed that whatever he said in confidence was being revealed openly. I asked him what of this discussion was confidential and what was private. He said all that he was telling me now was public and could be told.

He is sorry... she is jealous...

I mentioned that there were various complaints that he had been acting in an improper manner and therefore the EC was forced to do something. He said it was just 12 days or so (if I got it right) after the collapse and he implied he wasn't fully responsible for what he was doing then. He said he, in an emotional state, embraced Amboda dd and kissed her. He admits that was wrong and he apologizes for it. He said he will never do it again. He was upset that the EC listened to her and Kasiraj das even though they hadn't been chanting their 16 rounds for 5 weeks. But they didn't listen to him although he had been chanting 32 and more rounds. He said Amboda dd keeps bringing these things up since she actually had desires for him and was making plots to get him to be with her, but when he decided to be with Monika she became jealous and that is why she is doing all these things....

9. He feels ISKCON has made many mistakes and if it doesn't change it will be finished.

He said that because he has mentioned the faults in ISKCON therefore they don't tolerate him. He is outspoken about some of the defects in ISKCON, and for that he is removed. His main point is that ISKCON has made mistakes on important issues and that is ruining everything. He said that ISKCON is a sect (cult) and he doesn't want to be any part of a dangerous sect. If it changes he said, then maybe he can reconsider. He said one is told to chose a guru in the first 6 months when one doesn't know anything and once you choose a guru then you can't challenge the guru. "Isn't that mind control?", he said. I pointed out that disciples always have a right to question the guru if there is a deviation according to sadhu, sastra or guru. He said only question and not challenging.

He said the biggest problem was with the principle of NO ILLICIT SEX. That it should be changed to NO SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE. That this was the standard in the sampradaya. He didn't know why Srila Prabhupada stressed this point so much, but he couldn't blindly follow it. He said a young man and woman in their twenties need physical relations and it was artificial to not allow that. That one of his disciples had sex with his wife, but not according to garbodhana samskara and was feeling so guilty that he committed suicide 2 months ago. He was disgusted by this and felt it had to be changed. It was impractical and creating an abnormal situation. Devotees figure out they can't have much sex anyway so remain brahmacaries or sannyasis, and when they get 40 years old they can't sustain it so they get married. Then their marriages are abnormal and end in divorce. He said that people have children only to have sex and don't really care about the children so the children are some kind of varna-sankara or unwanted progeny. That instead they should have healthy sex lives and have children when they want them. I mentioned to him that I personally heard Srila Prabhupada tell householders that they shouldn't go outside of their marriage for sex and it wasn't sinful for a householder to have sexlife in marriage. However excessive sex life in marriage would make one more attached to the body and then risk that if one dies in that consciousness then wouldn't get back to Godhead. Harikesa Maharaja said he doesn't see devotees going back to Godhead anyway.

He also brought up problems in ISKCON with treatment of women and children. He said they were about to investigate some major scandal about gurukula abuse of children a couple of days prior to his collapse, but then he collapsed and after that he doesn't know what is happening. He said he would like to abolish all asram gurukulas in ISKCON.

[This is a sensitive topic and I don't want to go into so many details and commit some offence to Srila Prabhupada, but I should mention something.]

Harikesa Maharaja also told me that he felt Srila Prabhupada was being promoted too much in ISKCON. That Srila Prabhupada wasn't God. He was a pure devotee. That our philosophy is "Jivera svarupa haya Krsna nitya dasa" and not

"Jivera svarupa haya Srila Prabhupader nitya dasa". He stated that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu should be promoted more and not Srila Prabhupada. That Srila Prabhupada's books are wonderful. That 90-95% of the teachings are wonderful, but some few aspects have been given which have caused major problems in ISKCON which almost counter-acts whatever good we have done. That he isn't able to accept everything Srila Prabhupada's purports say without it being confirmed in the sastra as well. He can't blindly follow any more. He quoted a number of things that he personally felt were well-intentioned but improper on Srila Prabhupada's part. I think I mentally blocked out many of the things he said at this time and I don't want to repeat them here since I take it as possibly attracting offences for myself. However, begging Srila Prabhupada not to take offence I can mention that they include things like sending children to gurukula separating them from their parents, the moon was further than the sun, and stating that women like to be raped. He said he told heavier things to Abhiram Prabhu, but it shook his faith and he didn't want to tell me as it might shake my faith.

Harikesa Maharaja therefore has a new concept about Srila Prabhupada that HDG position should be re-evaluated. He feels Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu hasn't been promoted enough. That for the 500th anniversary of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu he was the main person who did everything for that festival and he got hardly any support for it. On the other hand, for the centennial of Srila Prabhupada 4 years of observations were held which was a practically useless.

Harikesa Maharaja stated emphatically that now he is no longer a member of ISKCON. That he considers ISKCON a dangerous sect which cheats people and has cheated him, therefore he doesn't want to be part of it any longer. He doesn't want to start a new organization since it would again be another sect.

Future plans...

As far as Harikesa Maharaja's future plans he told that he wants to see Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu made famous all over the world. He wants to see the Hare Krishna mahamantra chanted everywhere. He doesn't want to make any new movement or institution. He doesn't want to be part of a dangerous sect again. He is considering setting up a village somewhere and training people how to be proper householders and to relate with each other in a loving and caring manner. He isn't against ISKCON and doesn't want to do it any harm. If ISKCON doesn't change it will fall apart on its own. If they change then he may reconsider. He still loves the devotees and wants to serve the devotees. He intends to serve special programs for children and devotees and will be considering what he will do. I asked wouldn't the Mayapur Temple of Vedic Planetarium help to promote the glories of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu all over the world? His response was now he wasn't sure about whether he wanted to build a temple. "What was the need of such a big temple?" he asked. He questioned the whole concept of a temple in Mayapur. The location, the height, the strategy and design all were questioned or criticized. Later I explained how it may also be the best way of promoting Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He said finally that he would consider in the future and if he was convinced then again he might support it. He was supporting in the past even though he doubted it just out of his love for Srila Prabhupada, but now he would only do things based on his intellect being convinced.

I asked about the Russian situation and the three leaders: Sannyas das, Kamalamala das and Brahmananda Puri das happened to be present in the living room of the flat. I said I was concerned that there be no violence or unnecessary confrontation. Harikesa Maharaja said he told them he wasn't going to be a head of any new movement as he wasn't into it. He said he told them not to do any harm to themselves or to others. I asked him how things could be worked out and he advised me to ask them. Later that night I discussed with them for 1.5 hours and they offered to cooperate stating they were simply upset that their guru's good name had been offended.

He is an individual. He wants to get love for Krishna and go back to Godhead. He will chant Hare Krishna and practice devotional service, but he doesn't want to be part of an institution. He isn't under anyone any more. The GBC isn't over him. He is free now. He never wanted to be a Guru. He doesn't like Guru puja, sitting on a high seat, etc. He didn't give up his disciples, but they have given him up. He is willing to guide them, but not be a guru for them as before. No formal dealings. For now he needs time to recuperate and will announce when he can give guidance or do more for devotees. I explained how his disciples cared about him and were concerned for him. He said he gets letters from them wishing him a quick recovery and return to good health. He said he feels more physically strong than ever and he doesn't have any psychological problem. Therefore, when he gets such letters from disciples which don't understand his real situation he throws them in the waste basket. I wish I could have stressed more the trauma his disciples, but I didn't ask specifically about that. I heard Bhakti Bhusana Swami or someone asked about this.

He repeated at the end that he was feeling emotionally weak and in need of rebuilding. He was getting therapy from Monika and it would take some time for him to recuperate. He wanted time to recover and then in the future he would take up some activities and try to help devotees. He was kind to me and sacrificed his appointment to talk with me. He told me he thought of me favorably and was glad to see me.