CHAKRA, the web site which purports to be the GBC's friend, has recently posted two articles by Krishna Dharma, the Temple President of a small centre in Northern England. One article entitled 'Do We Need A Guru Approval System?' implies that the current guru system in ISKCON -(the M.A.S.S.)- violates sastra. With friends like this the GBC hardly needs enemies. Krishna Dharma's other article entitled 'Ritvik and Responsibility' raises objections to the ritvik system which manage to be simultaneously irrelevant and philosophically groundless. We delayed responding to the latter since we assumed the GBC, or at the very least Mukunda Goswami (Krishna Dharma's guru) would disown the first paper and perhaps hurriedly paste up a retraction of some sort. With the author thus discredited by his own camp there would have been little point in demolishing his anti-ritvik paper; generally we prefer to deal with the arguments offered by individuals blessed with GBC approval. Amazingly both articles remain posted to this day. Could it be that the current paradigm is finally beginning to shift?

 In his first article 'Do We Need A Guru Approval System?' (a title which already assumes Srila Prabhupada authorised his disciples to initiate on their own behalf!) Krishna Dharma takes the M.A.S.S. to its logical conclusion. Although his paper is scant on detail, it seems on the face of it that the system he proposes would remove GBC interference from the guru-disciple equation. Rather than maintain a list of 'approved' gurus, Krishna Dharma argues that the onus for deciding on who is qualified to initiate should rest solely and squarely on new bhaktas. In effect then he wants to remove the system which has kept the number of initiating gurus to below 100 for the last twenty years, and thus open things up for anyone and everyone in ISKCON to initiate whoever they want, whenever they want. Although Krishna Dharma does not set out any minimum standard, we assume these prospective gurus must at least appear to be following Srila Prabhupada's spiritual programme, (even this will need legislation however since some gurus may wish to set up their own standards- indeed several have already tried). The post of 'guru' should not be official, but arise solely out of one-to-one relationships between senior and junior devotees:

 As we mentioned, he even goes so far as to suggest that such methodologies, as practised by ISKCON's Governing Body Commission with regards gurus for the last twenty years, have violated sastra:

We wonder if Mukunda Goswami agrees that he and his fellow diksa gurus have been carrying on in a manner incompatible with our scriptures for such an extended period. Surely the bona fide spiritual master is meant to follow sastra, not systematically violate it for decades at a stretch! If he does agree with Krishna Dharma then we wonder how many other 'gurus' might feel the same. If he does not agree, why has he remained silent, and not publicly chastised his errant follower? Indeed one could ask why Krishna Dharma should want to accept a guru who cannot properly follow sastra. The whole thing is thus quite remarkable.

 Although Krishna Dharma seems to want the GBC to keep their noses out of future guru disciple relationships, leaving things to run their own natural course, he also seems to contradict this in the following extract:

Above Krishna Dharma manages a triple contradiction, quite an achievement. Firstly we see he quotes Srila Prabhupada clearly agreeing with Bhavananda that having men pose themselves as gurus was a bad thing, requiring strong management and 'vigilant observation' to prevent it. And yet this is precisely what Krishna Dharma himself seems to be advocating- that everyone and anyone be allowed to 'jump' and pose themselves as gurus on a potentially massive, never before seen scale!!

 The second contradiction is that in trying to deliver guru-disciple relationships from the shackles of one raft of legislation, he would simply pave the way for the formulation of another:

 Observers outside the movement, no doubt already jaded by PADA, would think we had all finally gone bananas - and they would be correct.

 Krishna Dharma complains: 

We can only imagine how much more embarrassment would be in store were the GBC to 'not object' to anyone and everyone connected with ISKCON becoming initiating acaryas; at least the potential for embarrassment is still relatively restricted. If we have misunderstood Krishna Dharma, and he is not arguing that anyone can initiate, then again there will need to be legislation to restrict those who can, and we are right back where we started.

 The third contradiction relates to one of his objections to the ritvik system espoused in 'ritvik and Responsibility':

It appears all Krishna Dharma has to support his hazy system is a statement from Srila Prabhupada which actually condemns the very idea he is proposing. If ever a system should be rejected for lack of supporting evidence it would have to be Krishna Dharma's. (If the July 9th letter does not mention any system, we wonder what exactly the GBC were operating between its date of issue and November 14th 1977? The GBC were charged with maintaining all systems of management, including the selection of senior personnel to run them, why does Krishna Dharma assume the ritvik system should have been treated differently? The only point of dispute surrounding this letter is why it was terminated- the very point he fails to address in 'Ritviks and Responsibility'.)

The above is revealed as philosophically deviant when we test it against Srila Prabhupada's teachings:

 To cap it all, whilst professing a deep dislike for the continuance of Srila Prabhupada's ritvik system in his second paper 'ritvik and responsibility', he concludes the first with the following:

Surprisingly the above statement is fully consistent with the ritvik position.

 We shall now examine his second paper 'Ritvik and Responsibility'.

 Considering Krishna Dharma's demonstrably limited grasp of Srila Prabhupada's teachings with regards guru tattva, it may have been expecting too much that he might actually have read the 'The Final Order'. We do not mean to imply that this paper is perfect, but it is the accepted standard position paper on the very issue Krishna Dharma is supposed to be refuting. It should be noted that this collaborative document was commissioned, reviewed and accepted by the GBC as a definitive presentation on this issue. Most pro-ritviks also accept it as being reasonably representative of their position. It is thus the arguments presented in this paper which Krishna Dharma needs to address if he has any hope of stemming the ritvik tide. Unfortunately he wastes a great deal of his article on straw-man arguments. ('Straw-Man argumentation is the practice of refuting statements that are not actually claimed by the opposing side, but are presented as such since they are much easier to refute then the statements actually made by the opposing side ). It may be easier for him to defeat propositions we have never made, but it hardly moves the process of discussion any further along. This is all the stranger since he actually asked us to send him a copy of 'The Final Order' as soon as it was completed, which we did. With this in mind there seems little excuse for him to misrepresent our position, unless there is some motive at work here other than to establish the truth.

 We call these 'modifications' since they do not appear in the final order, or any other signed document issued to the society's leaders by Srila Prabhupada.

 Let us look at what Krishna Dharma actually offers. Below are what appear to us to be his main points:

 In fact all five of the above points are irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is whether Srila Prabhupada established a ritvik system of initiation which was meant to continue within ISKCON. If he did, the above points are irrelevant since what could be gained from objecting to a system Srila Prabhupada insisted we adopt? If he did not, the above points are also irrelevant, since what is the point of fault finding a system Srila Prabhupada never intended we continue using? So unless it can be demonstrated that the above 5 points PROVE he did NOT set up such a system, merely pointing out perceived defects is simply a waste of time. All Krishna Dharma is in effect saying is 'I don't like this system'. But so what! Who cares what he likes or does not like? It is what Srila Prabhupada ordered which actually matters.

 What Krishna Dharma is arguing is that Srila Prabhupada just could not have wanted such a system because of his five points of objection. However these five objections are pure conjecture on his part. Let us elaborate this point to make it clearer. We are confident Srila Prabhupada never made any statements similar to the following:-

 'Straw Man' Arguments

 Having demonstrated that Krishna Dharma's main objections to the ritvik system are irrelevant to the debate, for completeness we shall go through his paper systematically and show all the other numerous flaws, false suppositions and misrepresentations. His statements are numbered 1-13, our comments are lettered:  

 The above is a subtle misrepresentation:

 a) We are not 'suggesting' anything. The July 9th order was issued by Srila Prabhupada, not us. The deliberate implication is that we have somehow invented the whole concept.

 b) The July 9th order is only relevant to ISKCON.

 These may seem nit-picky points, but they become more serious as Krishna Dharma warms to his theme:

2) "Unless, that is, the ritviks are prepared to accept some kind of guru-like responsibility. But there is precious little sign of that - the very suggestion appears anathema to them."

3) "Not long ago I raised this point with some leading ritvik proponents; viz. that they are effectively suggesting that we should dump everyone's sins on Prabhupada."

a) Again we did not suggest the July 9th policy document. That was wholly Srila Prabhupada's idea. If Krishna Dharma does not like some of the characteristics of the system Srila Prabhupada personally installed, that is his problem not ours. It is senseless for him to blame us for something we had nothing to do with. Unless he can prove the system was meant to be terminated his objections are all irrelevant, indeed they border on the offensive since he is lambasting Srila Prabhupada's direct order.

4) "Without doubt his experience of suffering is not like that of an ordinary conditioned soul, but to say that he experiences no suffering at all is far too akin to mayavada philosophy for my liking."

a) We have never said that the spiritual master does not suffer at all. Why does Krishna Dharma dishonestly present statements we never made?

5)"We reduce him to an unfeeling, insensate person - i.e. not really a person at all. I am reminded of the example of Ramacandra Puri, who censured his guru for exhibiting feelings, although admittedly these were on the transcendental platform. But I see the same impersonal contamination in ritvik thinking.. Or, if Prabhupada is a person, then for the ritvik he is a person who is virtually non-different from God himself, who can absorb an unlimited amount of karma and deliver any number of conditioned souls we care to throw at him."

a) We have never said that Srila Prabhupada is non-different from God. Again this is Krishna Dharma's own invention, made to discredit a position he cannot seem to legitimately defeat.

 b) Just because a pure devotee is able to absorb unlimited amounts of karma, that does not make him God. This principle is another Krishna Dharma invention.

 c) If Srila Prabhupada wants to accept the sinful reactions of a large number of people on this planet for some time to come, is it our position to stop him? Krishna Dharma says:

"I understand that he is obviously powerful enough to absorb a lot of sins"

So how much is `a lot'? Why does he assume the ritvik system would expose Srila Prabhupada to too much? How much is too much anyway? His objection is thus not only irrelevant, but also completely arbitrary.

 d) If Srila Prabhupada only wanted the July 9th order to apply during his physical presence, then even if we did institute a ritvic system he would not absorb any karma, since he would not have agreed to the arrangement. Again the issue is 'did he want the system continued?'

Again relating to this point of taking lots of disciples Krishna Dharma says:

"it would still seem to be at least common decency to ask him how he feels about taking on as many people as we deem fit to 'initiate' on his behalf"

"But now the ritvik position is that he no longer has any say in the matter."

Once again he pretends that the ritvik system is a position or idea generated by us. Just for the record, at the time the July 9th order was issued I was only nine years old and had never heard of the ritvik system. Furthermore it was Srila Prabhupada who handed all power of attorney over to his representatives, not me:

a) We have never used upper case for pronouns referring to Srila Prabhupada. If someone is doing this then they are off. Why not just answer 'The Final Order' rather then cast irrelevant aspersions?

 b) We do not say the GBC and everyone else are unqualified to take disciples. We simply say that everyone must follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions. This point everyone must agree to. 'The Final Order' merely seeks to clarify what those instructions are.

 c) It is Krishna Dharma who says that the GBC and all the gurus, including his own, have parted from scripture over twenty years ago.

8) "Thus they come up with newer and newer theories to show how wretched and sinful and wicked were Prabhupada's disciples during his presence, and how much worse they have become since."

a) This may be some peoples approach, but that is all the more reason why Krishna Dharma should just stick to 'The Final Order', a paper he himself requested be sent to him for his response. It is also a bit rich for Krishna Dharma to take this stance when he himself claims the entire GBC and all the gurus have been violating sastra for the last twenty years. That in itself is an extremely serious allegation with far reaching, indeed devastating ramifications if it were true. Since he himself made the allegation we assume he must believe it IS true.

9) "They thereby hope to prop up a fundamental assumption which underpins their whole interpretation of all the available evidence, much of which seems to totally contradict their stance."

a) We suggest that if Krishna Dharma has any evidence which clearly contradicts our 'stance' he should immediately send it to the GBC since they seem to be floundering quite badly at the moment. All they have is a tape rendered inadmissable by an investigation they themselves approved.

10) "Their arguments go like this: 'Although Prabhupada admittedly wanted his disciples to become gurus, at the end he saw that this could never be; that his poor disciples were simply a hopeless lot immersed in a multitude of devious schemes and plots to usurp his position. Thus came the mighty edict; 'Henceforward, no man shall become a guru bar myself!'"

11) "Can anyone else be a ritvik initiator? Maybe. Who? We're not sure. Does he need to be qualified as a guru himself ? Obviously not - as that is already ruled out de facto. What is the role of the ritvik in relation to the person he accepts as Prabhupada's disciple? Er, um - next question please."

12) "How sad. Effectively, the ritvik theory, if practised, will kill the preaching. Without being able to teach how can anyone preach? Are not the two things synonymous? And what is a teacher in Krishna consciousness if not a guru? As a preacher myself for many years now I can see the critical importance of accepting the role of guru if I am ever to help anyone in their spiritual lives."

 b) Krishna Dharma admits that he is acting at present in a teacher/siksa mode (albeit lacking proper GBC validation in his view). It is likely he would remain in this mode for a very long time to come since Mukunda Maharaja is still healthily residing on the same planet. Since this is what he is doing anyway what is his big problem with ritvik? The only difference would be that he would be training new bhaktas to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada rather than Mukunda Maharaja. Since Krishna Dharma has implied that Mukunda Maharaja cannot follow sastra properly, then surely he can only be better off under the ritvik system.

13)"I therefore hope and indeed pray that we will not see the ritvik system ever implemented in any movement which aims to spread the teachings of Lord Chaitanya. For me the two things, namely ritvik and preaching or taking responsibility for people's spiritual lives, are simply mutually exclusive."

a) Once more this is contrary to anything we have stated. Srila Prabhupada taught that everyone must preach and help deliver the fallen souls. What better way to do that than link them to a great mahabhagavat. It is surely not healthy to pray that Srila Prabhupada's final order on initiations continues to be ignored!

 Thus we see the above sections of Krishna Dharma's article, from 1 through to 13, offer practically nothing but straw-man arguments. The bulk of his essay is thus a complete waste of web site. His other tactic, as we showed at the beginning, is to simply attack what he perceives to be some of the natural consequences or characteristics of the ritvik system which he happens to find objectionable. Once more this is a waste of time since it sheds no light on the central issue. Did Srila Prabhupada actually order a ritvik system to be continued within ISKCON? If he DID then, with all due respect, who on earth cares what Krishna Dharma thinks of it! If he did NOT, then what is the point of objecting to its characteristics? The only way Krishna Dharma's approach could have any relevance is if he could prove that one of the characteristics he found objectionable actually clearly violated a principle in Srila Prabhupada's teachings. Since nobody so far has been able to locate any such principle, we can only assume that the ritvik system was terminated without good reason, and should therefore be re-instituted without further delay.

Please forgive any offence. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

All glories to His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!