Posted 8-25-00
...the following list from around the world who will gather to take part in historic multi- stakeholder dialogues:
Mikhail Gorbachev, Convening Chairman,
State of the World Forum...(etc.)
http://www.worldforum.org/
Also I have been looking at pictures of the Temple mount on www.templemount.org It is talking about the sites of the 1st and 2nd Temple and it shows the plans of the Temple layout and it is split into three courts.....the court of the Priests, the court of Women, the court of Gentiles. I wonder if there are any parallels in there. The court of Priests surrounded the Holy of Holies, The court of Women was outside the that and then the court of Gentiles outside the court of Women and furthest from the Holy of Holies... I thought maybe the different groups were - Bride/Body and Israel. Or top saints-Priests/regular saints- Women/rest of body-Gentiles? Just wondering if our walk with Christ will determine our proximity to Him in eternity...Please excuse my ramblings you're probably inundated with mail right now...and we should get all our questions answered soon anyway.
I am so excited. And just feel I want to tell everybody that Jesus YAHshua craves their love just like any Bridegroom does......so open up your hearts now to tell Him the things He longs to hear from His chosen ones.
Thankyou sweet sister for all your faithfulnes it has blessed us all so much more than you can ever know. Love in YAHshua
Psa. 12:1 (NIV) says, "Help, LORD, for the GODLY are no more; the FAITHFUL HAVE VANISHED FROM AMONG MEN." The Complete Jewish Bible has, "Help, Adonai! For no one godly is left; the FAITHFUL HAVE VANISHED FROM HUMANKIND."
I think it is talking about right after the Pre-Trib Rapture too. No mention of bodies left behind, either, any more than when Enoch was translated or when Elijah was caught up.
Isa. 57:1-3 (CJB) elaborates on this a bit. It says, "The righteous person perishes (abad, escapes), and nobody gives it a thought. GODLY MEN ARE TAKEN AWAY, and no one understands that the RIGHTEOUS PERSON IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL YET TO COME." Yes, those who live uprightly will have peace as they rest on their couches. "But you, you witches' children, come here, you spawn of adulterers and whores!" That puts it plainly.
The Pre-Trib Rapture was taught in the OT. It was just not understood until Paul explained the mystery clearly.
I don't know if the courts of the temple are significant. They probably are, if I could just see it. Agape
***From Marilyn: It is easy to get mixed up when we trust "revelation" and "impartation" and then try to fit the Bible prophecies to it.
***I'll stick with the Bible. Much of Rev. 12 is very symbolic, but we must let the Bible interpret it for us by comparing Scripture with Scripture. The setting of the drama presented in Rev. 12 is Mid-Tribulation. It is when Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of Heaven. Verse 9 says, "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." It is when Satan enters into the False Prophet and sits in the temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). He places an idol, "the abomination of desolation" (Mt. 24:15; Dan. 12:11) at the temple. This stops the sacrificing and is the sign for the Messianic Jews living in Judea to "flee into the mountains" (Mt. 24:15). The last half of the 70th week of Daniel, the Great Tribulation, has begun, and Satan will try to kill all Christians. Rev. 12:17 says, "the dragon was wroth with THE WOMAN, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
***THE WOMAN is Israel in the last verse, and THE WOMAN is Israel in the first verse. Rev. 12:1,2 says, "there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered." Let's take this as literally as possible. A woman in Scripture is often a symbol of a religious group. Here, it could represent the saved of Israel that were part of the Pre-Trib Rapture. They are literally in Heaven Mid-Trib.
***The woman has on her head a crown of 12 stars. Those stars could be the 12 patriarchs of Israel. Of Joseph, Gen. 37:9 says, "he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." Not only do the 12 stars help identify the woman as Israel, but the 12 patriarchs are literally in Heaven Mid-Trib for they were part of the Pre-Trib Rapture described in I Thess. 4:13-18 and Rev. 4:1.
***Saved Israel is in Heaven, "clothed with the sun." Heaven is a planet in our Solar System, bathed in sunlight as it orbits the Sun. Isa. 66:1 says, "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool." So as not to tie this woman in with the Earth here, the Moon is "under her feet." She is on the heavenly planet, which is farther out in space than the Moon, but still in our Solar System.
***Saved Israel is in Heaven, but two of her members are on Earth, Moses and Elijah, God's two witnesses. These are, I think, represented by the "man child." Surprisingly, this is in neuter gender instead of masculine, maybe to distinguish the two witnesses from other men on Earth.
***We know this is Mid-Trib for the 7th head of the great red dragon is crowned. The 7th head is the False Prophet. As soon as he puts the idol in the temple, he will probably command all to bow down to him or to the idol. Since the two witnesses won't do this, he kills them. After 3 1/2 days, they are resurrected and ascend "up to heaven in a cloud" when a voice from Heaven says, "Come up hither" (Rev. 11:12). This is when THE WOMAN brings forth "a man child."
***This man child is "to rule all nations with a ROD OF IRON" (Rev. 12:5). Psa. 2:7-9 says, "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a ROD OF IRON; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." We know that Christ will rule with a rod of iron, but he will be assisted by all those that are part of the Pre-Trib Rapture.
***They are made kings and priests, and will rule over the Earth during the Millennium (Rev. 5:10). Rev. 2:26-29 says, "he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a ROD OF IRON; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the MORNING STAR. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
***This MORNING STAR is the heavenly planet. Jesus said he was the morning star because his throne is on this morning star.
***After the abomination is put at the temple and the two witnesses killed, the Messianic Jews flee to the wilderness. Many end up in Petra. Rev. 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath A PLACE PREPARED OF GOD, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." This is the Great Tribulation, the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.
***Rev. 12:5 says of saved Israel, "she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." This is fulfilled when the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah, are caught up to Heaven. They complete the group in Heaven that are made kings and priests to help carry out the Lord's wishes during the Millennium.
> > 17. I believe the Lord has shown me that the "two witnesses"...will be a man and a woman...the "adam and eve" of the "3rd day" or third dispensation....and they will come out of the star group. Just as it only took one man and one woman to give dominion of the earth to satan, the Lord will use one man and one woman to get it back...they will be the 'two witnesses'...and they will enter through the golden gate....the DOUBLE gate...and be killed in Jerusalem. I believe these two witnesses know their identity...have known it since the "feast of trumpets" in 1999...They will be the final redemption of the first Adam and the first Eve.
***I don't think the 2 witnesses are another "adam and eve." I don't believe that the Lord will use one man and one woman to get dominion of the Earth back. Christ has already accomplished that. He will take dominion from Satan at the end of the days allotted to Satan. In Rev. 12:14, the fleeing Israelities are to go into the wilderness, "into her PLACE, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3.5 years), from the FACE OF THE SERPENT." After that 3.5 years, I believe Christ will take dominion from Satan at the Judgment of the Nations.
***Be certain that you have asked Christ to be your own personal Saviour. Then ask the Father, in the name of the Son, to help you understand Scripture. James 1:5 says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
***Then do your best to lay aside all your preconceived notions and start anew. Just read Scripture. Let it say exactly what it says. When something is to be taken symbolically, the passage will show you what it means by linking with other Scriptures. Compare everything with Scripture to see if it is so. Agape
Ezek 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
As far as the earthquakes go, I believe the earth will tremble like never before, on multiple occasions, Rev 6:12 (6th seal) , Rev 8:5 (after the 144,000 are sealed and before the 1st trumpet judgement).
So the question is, how can Ezek 38 really fit at the end?... where are they when they burn the weapons of war?? Are you suggesting that the burning of the weapons continues into the Millennial Reign? Sincerely In Christ
The way I see it, Gog's attack on Israel has to be at the end of the 2300-day shortened Tribulation. The "great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" (Rev. 8:8). What happened then is in Eze. 38:20: "So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and the mountains (asteroids) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."
> > Are you suggesting that the burning of the weapons continues into the Millennial Reign?
Yes. I think the burning of weapons in Israel continues into the Millennium. The Day of God's Wrath (Eze. 38:18-20) is over. Eze. 39:8 says, "Behold, it is come, and it is DONE, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken." Under the 1st trumpet judgment, "the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up" (Rev. 8:7). The new growth on the trees needs some time to reestablish the forests, etc.
I think the 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) and Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008) are the first 7 months of the 7 year-period that they will burn the weapons. I also think the 5 months that men will be tormented by the demons and wish to die but death flees from them (Rev. 9) are the first 5 months of the 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent. BTW, 5768 is a leap year. That year has to be a Jewish Leap Year for there to be 7 months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1. Agape
I would have to disagree with that belief, mainly on biblical grounds, but there are scientific reasons as well.
First, if there were billions of years of creation before Adam, that would imply that there is also death, disease and destruction during that time frame, as evidenced by the fossil record. Again assuming that we interpret the fossil record to indicate billions of years.
Well, the Bible tells us differently. Paul tells us in Romans 5:12 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:'.
By one man (Adam), sin entered the world. So before Adam, there was no sin. And because of sin, death entered the world. Therefore there was no death before Adam sinned. The Bible clearly goes against any death before Adam, yet you are teaching that there was death before Adam. Unless you are teaching that there was no sin before Adam, but if there wasn't sin, then God wouldn't have to judge the pre-adamite world.
If sin didn't enter the world through Adam, then you are saying that God is the author of sin, which we know can't be true either. God can't sin.
Your thoughts on this matter are much appreciated. Maranatha!
There weren't "billions of years of CREATION." The pre-incarnate Christ created everything in the beginning (Jn. 1:3). He is able to do it fast. He created all the animal kingdom in one day in Gen. 1:21. Isa. 45:18 says, "For thus saith the LORD that created (bara) the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made (asah) it; he hath established it, he created (bara) it not in vain (tohu, waste), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."
> > assuming that we interpret the fossil record to indicate billions of years
The Bible does not tell us how many years the fossil record indicates.
> > Well, the Bible tells us differently. Paul tells us in Romans 5:12 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
> > By one man (Adam), sin entered the world. So before Adam, there was no sin
You didn't read it carefully. Death is qualified. It says, "death BY SIN." It isn't just any death, it is "DEATH BY SIN." Therefore, "by one man SIN entered into the world, and DEATH BY SIN." "So before Adam, there was no sin" in the world is true. Before there was a command not to do something, and that command was disobeyed, there was no sin in the world, and no punishment for sin.
> > because of sin, death entered the world. Therefore there was no death before Adam sinned.
Because of sin, death BY SIN entered the world. Therefore, there was no death BY SIN before Adam sinned. However, there was death, even when there was no sin. It was death of plants and animals. You might want to brush up on Logic a bit.
> > The Bible clearly goes against any death before Adam, yet you are teaching that there was death before Adam. Unless you are teaching that there was no sin before Adam, but if there wasn't sin, then God wouldn't have to judge the pre-adamite world.
There was no sin before Adam. Who said God had "to JUDGE the pre-adamite world" because of sin? If there was no sin in the world before Adam, there was no judgment for sin in the world before Adam.
There could be death, and there could be destruction, but neither was because of sin.
Gen. 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." "Isa. 45:18 tells us that it was NOT created waste ("not in vain," tohu, waste), yet Gen. 1:2 says, "And the earth was (hayah, became) without form (tohu, waste, or ruin), and void (bohu, desolation); and darkness was upon the face of the deep." He "formed it to be inhabited" (Isa. 45:18), and it was inhabited by plants and animals.
In the Hebrew, the verb "to be" is NOT used when there is NO change. It is supplied by the translator. The verb "to be" IS USED WHEN THERE IS A CHANGE. In Gen. 1:2, "hayah" is used because THERE IS A CHANGE. The perfect creation BECAME waste and desolation. It became ruined.
How did it become ruined? Isa. 51:9,10 says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ, Isa. 53:1); awake, AS IN THE ANCIENT DAYS, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut (split) Rahab (Satan's planet, now our Asteroid Belt), and wounded the dragon (Satan)? Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep."
In Gen. 1:2, all the land was under water, "and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." By the third day, "God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto ONE PLACE, and let the dry land appear." I think an asteroid, a chunk of Rahab, impacted Earth, blasted the material off that became the Moon, and in the process dug the Pacific Basin as the "ONE PLACE" for the waters to flow into so the dry land would appear.
How do you think the "ONE PLACE" for the waters was fashioned (asah)? Agape
Anyway, here's what I am thinking. There weren't "billions of years of CREATION." The pre-incarnate Christ created everything in the beginning (Jn. 1:3). He is able to do it fast. He created all the animal kingdom in one day in Gen. 1:21. Isa. 45:18 says, "For thus saith the LORD that created (bara) the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made (asah) it; he hath established it, he created (bara) it not in vain (tohu, waste), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."
I couldn't agree with you more. When I said billions of years of creation, I meant in the sense that we are living in His creation today. Not that it took billions of years to create. Of course the one thing that I think is why did God take so long to create the heavens and the earth? To model our 7 day week. :-) The Bible does not tell us how many years the fossil record indicates.
I know - I firmly believe that the fossil record is a record of living things that inhabited the earth prior to the flood of Noah, not prior to Adam.
Because of sin, death BY SIN entered the world. Therefore, there was no death BY SIN before Adam sinned. However, there was death, even when there was no sin. It was death of plants and animals. You might want to brush up on Logic a bit.
That is an interesting theory, but I can't prove that God meant for us to read death because of sin - just as you can't prove that God meant for it to say death BY SIN, although the odds are in your favor. That word in the Hebrew is translated as "by" 241 times, and it is only translated as "because" 52 times. There was no sin before Adam. Who said God had "to JUDGE the pre-adamite world" because of sin? If there was no sin in the world before Adam, there was no judgment for sin in the world before Adam.
There could be death, and there could be destruction, but neither was because of sin.
Your webpage about the catastrophe before Adam said that the pre-adamite world was judged. Why else would it be judged but because of Satan's sin?
Now as far as your argument that the Hebrew word 'tohu' should be translated as 'became' instead of 'was', here's some information I got from http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1195.asp:
Isaiah says that God created the earth not in vain He formed it to be inhabited. The word 'in vain' is the same as tohu; that is, the same word translated 'without form' in Genesis 1:2. So 'gap' theorists say that since God did not create it that way, it must have become that way. But again, the context is significant. In Isaiah, the context requires the use of the translation 'in vain'. That is, God did not create the earth without a purpose; He created it to be inhabited. Genesis 1 tells us then how He brought form to the unformed earth and inhabitants to the empty earth. It was not really finished until He said so at the end of the six days of creation.
The word tohu is actually translated 10 different ways in about 20 occurrences in the Old Testament. Isaiah 45:19 has the same word, and there it has to be translated 'vainly' or 'in vain'. It is also proper to translate it that way in Isaiah 45:18. It depends on the context as to how it is to be precisely translated. In Genesis 1:2 the context simply indicates the earth had no structure as yet. It was unformed; it was not even spherical at that point, but was comprised of only the basic elements of earth material.
I tend to agree with them on this.
One other question - Genesis 1:31 says: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. How can God say that EVERY thing that He had made was very good if there was death and destruction before Adam, as well as Satan's rebellion? Are you saying that is good that Satan rebelled? Maranatha!
I said, "This catastrophe was the result of divine judgment upon Satan and his angelic followers, the demons....
Divine Judgment Against Satan's Planet
Satan's planet Rahab, once located between Mars and Jupiter, was destroyed by divine judgment. Evidently, a stray rock split Rahab into the shards we now call the Asteroid Belt. Before Adam was created, at least one piece of Rahab struck the Earth and split the Sea."
The judgment was on Satan and resulted in his planet Rahab being split into pieces. It was not judgment on Earth, but Earth was hit by an asteroid because Rahab was split into pieces.
> > Now as far as your argument that the Hebrew word 'tohu' should be translated as 'became'
I didn't say that. The word "hayah," a form of "to be" should be translated "became," because the use of the verb is to indicate that a change took place. If "hayah' had not been used, no change would have been indicated. It was used, so a change took place. The word "tohu" means ruin. The Earth BECAME ruin and desolation; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Your reference said,
> > ...earth had no structure as yet. It was unformed; it was not even spherical at that point, but was comprised of only the basic elements of earth material.
You said,
> > I tend to agree with them on this.
You do? How could water cover the whole Earth with no mountain sticking up anywhere and it not be spherical? :-)
> > Genesis 1:31 says: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. How can God say that EVERY thing that He had made was very good if there was death and destruction before Adam, as well as Satan's rebellion? Are you saying that is good that Satan rebelled?
The word "bara" means to create. The word "asah" means to refashion out of existing materials. Gen. 1:31 says, "God saw every thing that he had made (asah, refashioned out of existing materials). That is what God did in 6 days. He refashioned the Earth to make it a fit habitat for Adam. Gen. 2:3 says, "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created (bara) and made (refashioned)." The word "bara," create is only used of original creation in the beginning, of the creation of animals, and of the creation of man. When it says that God MADE something, it doesn't mean create. It means refashioned from existing materials. It is like the potter making a jar from clay.
Of course, I am not "saying that is good that Satan rebelled." It would have been better if he had not. That has nothing to do with the fact that everything that God made (asah, refashioned) was good, as per Gen. 1:31.
We can't believe everything that people say. People can be wrong. We are to search the Scriptures and see if these things are so. If God says something, we know it is true. Agape
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