Posted 9-5-00
Verses 10-13 really are 2 sections. The 1st tells us about the situation in Heaven. The 2nd tells us about the situation on Earth.
(1) Rev. 12:10-12a says, "IN HEAVEN, NOW IS COME salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of OUR BRETHREN is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore REJOICE YE HEAVENS, and ye that dwell in them."
(2) Rev. 12:12b-13 says, "Woe to the inhabiters of THE EARTH and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto THE EARTH, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."
During the 1st half of the Tribulation, the accusations against the dwellers in Heaven are against the Bride of Christ who was caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. That's US, the overcomers. That is the point I didn't really zero in on before. WE are the ones that overcome him by the blood of the Lamb. WE are the ones that rejoice when his accusations end Mid-Trib. Rev. 12:10-12a sure shows that the 1st Rapture is Pre-Trib, no doubt about it.
So what will we be doing during the 1st half of the Tribulation? Well, giving our "testimony" seems to be one of the things we will do. I Peter 4:17 says, "For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at US, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" As for my testimony, I think I would say that I asked Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Saviour. I knew that he was God in the flesh and the only Saviour.
This does not seem to be the judgment when we receive REWARDS. That is on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, 1040 days after Satan is cast out of Heaven (Dan. 8:14). II Cor. 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may RECEIVE the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Rom. 2:5 mentions, "the DAY OF WRATH and revelation (appearing, coming) of the righteous JUDGMENT of God." Just as The Revelation of Jesus Christ is when he comes for us at the Pre-Trib Rapture, the revelation of the Judgment Seat of Christ is when it comes.
Jas. 5:9 says, "Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door" (when the Pre-Trib Rapture is nigh). Christ is the judge. Jn. 5:22 says, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." Agape
> > explain to me 2 Thes. 2:3...the falling away....please inform me how it could mean departure or rapture. Do you have an example from the original text or was there a bad translation in the KJ version?
What happened is that the KJV was issued in 1611. They did a fantastic job with what they had to work with. However, after that, at least 2 older MSS were found. The Alexandrine Codex had been presented to the Patriarch of Alexandria in 1078, but it wasn't presented to King Charles the First by Cyril Lucar, Patriarch of Constantinople, until 1628.
The Sinaitic Codex was discovered by Constantine Tischendorf in 1844 and 1859, at the Convent of St. Catherine, on Mt. Sinai.
Both the Alexandrine and Sinaitic MSS have day of the Lord instead of the KJVs day of Christ in II Thess. 2:2. So does the Vatican Codex, which appeared in the Vatican Library c. 1475. This makes a lot of difference in the meaning of II Thess. 2:2 since the Day of Christ/Day of the Son of Man represents the Raptures, both the Pre-Trib and the Pre-Wrath Raptures, and the Day of the Lord represents the Millennium.
In 1869, Tishendorf published "THE NEW TESTAMENT: THE AUTHORISED ENGLISH VERSION; WITH INTRODUCTION, AND VARIOUS READINGS FROM THE THREE MOST CELEBRATED MANUSCRIPTS OF THE ORIGINAL GREEK TEXT." I have a copy, and it lists for the KJV "day of Christ" this note: "SVA the day of the Lord." This means that all 3 important MSS, the Sinaitic Codex, the Vatican Codex, and the Alexandrine Codex, all have day of the Lord in II Thess. 2:2. That reading makes much better sense when compared with the rest of Scripture than day of Christ too.
We see that there are 2 Days of the Son of Man/Days of Christ in Lu. 17:22. It says, "he (Jesus) said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS (plural) of the SON OF MAN, and ye shall not see it. The 1st Day of the Son of Man is as the days of Noah (Lu. 17:26). No fire fell. It represents the Pre-Trib Rapture. The 2nd Day of the Son of Man is as the days of Lot, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all" (Lu. 17:29).
At the 1st Rapture, the group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" of Rev. 5:9 is present on Heaven before the 1st seal is broken on the Title Deed of the Earth in Rev. 6. At the 2nd Rapture, the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that come "out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:9,14) are in Heaven between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 6:12; 8:1).
Most modern translations have corrected the KJV error. They have day of the Lord at II Thess. 2:2. The literal Concordant Version of II Thess. 2:1-5 says, "Now we are asking you, brethren (believers), for the sake of the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to Him (the Pre-Trib Rapture), that you be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the DAY OF THE LORD is present. No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the APOSTASY be coming first and the man of lawlessness (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) be UNVEILED, the son of destruction...so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God."
Here, the Greek word "apostasia" is translated as "apostasy." That is not what it has to mean. Apostasia means departure. That meaning can easily be seen when we look at similar words. The word for "divorcement" is "apostacion." It represents one person departing from the other. The word for "draw away" is "apospao."
This departure has to come before the False Prophet is unveiled when he and the Beast confirm the covenant of Dan. 9:27. That the departure means the Rapture can be seen in Rev. 3:10. There, the Philadelphian saints are to be kept "FROM" the trial that is to come upon the whole world in the Tribulation. This departure is in Rev. 4:1, when Christ shouts in his trumpet voice, "Come up hither." The whole Tribulation is included in the words, "I will shew thee things which must he hereafter." Here, the Tribulation is after the Rapture, just as it is in II Thess. 2:3. Rev. 4:1 shows that the Tribulation is "hereafter." II Thess. 2:3 shows that the Rapture is "first," then the False Prophet is revealed.
We can also see it in I Thess. 4:16,17 and I Cor. 15:51,52. There are 2 Raptures and therefore 2 trumps of God. In I Thess. 4:16, we hear Christ's shout, the same as the voice like a trumpet we heard in Rev. 4:1. Then it says, "with the trump of God." This is the FIRST TRUMP. In I Cor. 15:52, we find out that the 2nd Rapture is the last one. It is at the "LAST TRUMP.
The FIRST TRUMP is before the 1st seal is broken to start the Tribulation. The LAST TRUMP is between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals. It is at the junction of the last day of this age and the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. The FIRST TRUMP is to call the Bride of Christ, the wise virgins of Mt. 25 that go with the Bridegroom when he comes. The LAST TRUMP is to call the Tribulation saints, the remnant of the Body of Christ. Of this group, only the 144,000 Israelites are called virgins and who are without fault before the throne of God in Rev. 14:4,5. They are called to Heaven just before the 7th seal releases the 7 trumpet judgments on the world in Rev. 8. The LAST TRUMP of God is not the 7th trumpet judgment. Those trumpets are sounded by angels. They are the wrath of God, and believers are not to be subjected to the wrath of God. Rom. 1:18 says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Rom. 5:9 says, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved FROM wrath through him."
These 2 trumps of God were prefigured by the 2 silver trumpets of Nu. 10:1-4. It says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both, i.e., at the LAST TRUMP), ALL the assembly (the entire Body of Christ) shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (elders of Rev. 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall GATHER themselves unto thee." This "GATHER" is a type of the "GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM" in II Thess. 2:1, the Pre-Trib Rapture at the FIRST TRUMP.
The two gatherings are evident in Mt. 24:31 and Mk. 13:27. Mt. 24:31 says, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." This is the re-blowing of the FIRST TRUMP. It now gathers those who were taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (Heb. 12:23) on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord for the Coronation of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Right after the FIRST TRUMPET sounds again, the LAST TRUMP sounds for the first time to call the Tribulation saints to the general assembly in Heaven. We see this in Mk. 13:27. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those that were taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture).
> > we were now being sifted as wheat
Yes. Jesus told Peter that Satan desired to have him to sift him as wheat, and we are called wheat. In Lu. 22:31, "the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat." I think that we have all been called. We must now be chosen, and we are chosen because we are faithful. At the time of the Rapture, those "that are with him are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL" (Rev. 17:14).
If we are not chosen, we will be like the Laodicean types that are spued out of Christ's mouth (Rev. 3:16), like the man without a wedding garment in Mt. 22. He was cast outside the doors of Heaven, "For many are CALLED, but few are CHOSEN" (Mt. 22:14). We are tested to see if we will give up what we have or hang on to it. These are the days that are most important to hang on tenaciously. We want to be overcomers, as in the messages to the churches in Rev. 2 and 3. James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
> > Could the wheat and the tares, even now, before the rapture be experiencing the beginning of the separation?
I think that is at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, but the foolish Laodicean virgins are being separated from the wise Philadelphian virgins. When you encounter a Christian who is hateful, they are not obeying the Lord's word. We are to deal with the brethren in God's agape love. Even if we need to rebuke someone that is deceived, we need to do it in agape love, not hatefulness. I Peter 1:22 says, "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently."
> > Most of these people claim to be Christians.
And they may be, only the Lord knows for sure. Christians are not perfect, but if we confess our sins to God, we can be perfectly forgiven. We won't be sin free until after the Rapture. This physical body is called the body of sin. After we are out of this body, I don't think we will sin.
The problem for them is shown in Lu. 12:46, where we see the foolish Laodicean virgins cut off from the Body of Christ. It says, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." In the parable of the wedding feast in Mt. 22:13, we also se that "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
I feel sorry for those that will only wake up when "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The Tribulation saints have to wash their robes in the blood of Christ to make them white (Rev. 7:14). I'd rather use I Jn. 1:9, confess my sins so the Lord can cleanse me of all unrighteousness now. That way, we can avoid the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Agape
From a reader: "I appreciated MANY things about your web pages, but obviously disagree with some others. Just because one does not accept a pre-tribulation view doesn't mean we reject the "Blessed Hope" mentioned in Titus 2:11-13. I DO look for the return of Christ at the last day when He comes on the clouds and EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM (Rev. 1:7 no secret rapture here)! My Savior's coming on the clouds is VISIBLE TO ALL! I look foreward to that day!"
Here we see a very common mistake that is made often. When Jesus comes at the end of the Tribulation. This is not the Blessed Hope because at that time He comes with wrath and judgement. At that time there will be the separation and judgement of all nations that will now be subjected to Him. Let's take a look at Titus.
Titus 2:13-14 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Here we see at the time of the Second Coming that He will redeem us. To be fully redeemed means that our bodies will be changed from mortal to immortal. Our spirit now belongs to God, but our flesh is still open to satan's attacks. Our spirit is redeemed, but not our flesh. This redemption of the flesh comes at the time of Rapture when the Lord comes to the clouds to snatch us away before the great time of judgement begins. At this time God will begin to serve judgement on all mankind. We can't be part of the Tribulation because we are no longer under condemnation....
Now during the Tribulation God will condemn and punish mankind for what they have done. And at the time of the Second Coming, it will be a time of great wrath. This is not a time of hope, but a time of horror! Some say that we will be protected from the Tribulation as we go through it. Well common sense dictates that if we are forced to witness all the massive horror that is coming, that is not the blessed hope. When Christ returns, this will be a time of the wine press off His wrath.
2 Pet 2:6-9 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished"
So how did God deliver Lot from temptation? Was Lot's house protected from the fire? Did the people burn to death before him while he remained "protected?" No! He was taken "completely" out of the city. And in fact He was told not to even look back! He had nothing to with God's judgement and wrath against the wicked. Lot was completely REMOVED from the city FIRST, then the judgement began. This is also like Noah. Did God give Noah the ability to breath under water? No. He placed him in the ark FIRST then the judgement came....
As seen with Noah and Lot, we won't be here....
Acts 1:11 "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
Here we see that Jesus will return the same way, yet when He was taken up, only the believers saw Him ascend to heaven. So when He returns in "like manner," only the believers will see Him. Why is this? Because ONLY the believers will be Raptured to the clouds to meet Him in the air. This is the Blessed Hope. This is why the Rapture is a secret event
Now 7 years later when He returns with His bride, us the Church, He will come to the earth and His feet will touch the earth.
Zech 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
When Christ comes this will mark the time of the grapes of wrath. This will be the final and most horrifying wrap up of the Tribulation judgement and wrath. At this time every eye will see Him come on clouds of great power.
Rev 1:7 'Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." This does not sound like the Blessed Hope to me, but rather the not so blessed hope of judgement.
Like Lot and like Noah, we will be taken completely out of the earth to heaven. There too we will not look back and we will not endure the horror. Yes we will be gone to see the Lord and never look back.
The Rapture can't be at the Second Advent. If that were true, the wrath of God would be poured out on believers. The wrath of God is not poured out on believers, only on unbelievers. Neither is the whole Tribulation God's wrath, as Richard Vizzutti said.
The Day of God's Wrath is on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It is after the 6th seal is broken in Rev. 6:12. Rev. 6:14-17 says, "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
God's wrath is only poured out on unbelievers. I Thess. 5:9 says, "God hath NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Jn. 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT the Son shall not see life; but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM."
God's wrath hits Earth when Gog's army attacks Israel. Eze. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel (the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean); So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake (the worldwide earthquake) at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."
Between that outpouring of God's Wrath (the 7 trumpet judgments) and the Second Advent, when the Lord comes in glory, are 7 Jewish months (Tishri 1 to Nisan 1 in a Jewish Leap Year). Eze. 39:12,13 says, "seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."
Christ does not return in glory on the day of "thick darkness" (Joel 2:1-3) with all those dead bodies laying around. Zech. 14:5-7 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints (raised at both the Pre-Trib and the Pre-Wrath Raptures) with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, NOR DARK: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time IT SHALL BE LIGHT."
The 1st Rapture is before the Tribulation. Rev. 3:10 shows that we are to be kept FROM the trial that is to come upon the whole world. It is before the 1st seal is broken in Rev. 6. The 2nd Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the 7th seal is opened in Rev. 8:1. Rev. 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
The 1st group is to be raptured at the FIRST TRUMP of I Thess. 4:16. The 2nd group is to be raptured at the LAST TRUMP of I Cor. 15:52. Both are prefigured by the 2 silver trumpets of Nu. 10:2.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot. Lu. 17:29 says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." So shall it be on the Day of God's Wrath. Every believer will be caught up to Heaven. Then, the Wrath of God will be cast on unbelievers.
I agree with others (including Marilyn) that 1997 was definitely marked in prophecy, and I personally accept by faith that 1997-1998 was the first year of the parable of the barren fig tree of Luke.... 13:6-9).
In the vision I had, I was present in a sealed room with a number of men and women, but the only person who spoke was "Mr. C" (And I don't mean the "Mr. C" from the Happy Days TV show!) This Mr. C was working on a book, writing and compiling, and telling the others in the room what he was doing. His exact words were that this book was the "details of the coming takeover of the world powers". I knew something very, very dark and disturbing was present in this room with all of the people.
I am very inclined to expect the ten days of persecution of Rev 2:10 to start very soon. After I heard the voice speak Harvest Moon to me last month, these days could very well start on September 3rd. Another interesting dream I had way back in May, that I never reported was observing from an overhead position (basically up in the air" a Festival out in an open countryside. I was told this was a "Festival of Booths" and it had an enormous number of tents put up. At that time I was looking for the pre-trib Rapture on Pentecost, and did not feel that "booths" meant anything because "booths" refers to the Feast of Tabernacles. According to Jewish Tradition "Sukkot" also involved Gentiles. Sukkot is also called the Feast of Lights, to commemorate the pillar of fire that led the Israelites. This Festival BEGINS AFTER THE INGATHERING OF THE FALL HARVEST. How about after the Harvest of the Pre-Trib Rapture! This makes TWO different events I have had visions of, from a vantage point of above the earth, in the air. The Festival of Booths or Tabernacles or Sukkot, and the vision of the destruction of the temple.
It can not be long for us to wait my Brother and Sister in Christ. Be on watch for our Lord to call us and watch for the persecution of ten days of Rev 2:10. Agape
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Updated 9-5-00