Posted 10-21-00
Lutherans might be willing to accept the Pope as "spokesman for all Christianity worldwide," their leading prelate in Germany said Wednesday.
The statement by Bishop Hans Christian Knuth came almost one year after representatives of the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF) signed their historic accord on "justification" in Augsburg, Germany.
This issue had divided Roman Catholics and Protestants for almost five centuries. Now, Catholics and the LWF's member churches agree that only "by grace through faith," but not good deeds, are Christians justified before God.
Knuth is the presiding bishop of the Union of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Germany.
In an address to his denomination's general synod in the eastern German resort town of Schneeberg, the bishop made it clear that the Pope would have to meet certain conditions to be accepted by non-Catholics as their spokesman.
Knuth added: "As far as we are concerned, he could perform this function only in his capacity as bishop of Rome."
Furthermore, when speaking for non-Catholic Christians, the Pope would have to give up his claim of being the ultimate arbiter in matters of church law, Knuth said. "He could not present himself as Christ's deputy nor pretend to be infallible in doctrinal matters," Knuth added, according to "Idea," a Protestant news agency based in Germany....
I HAD WRITTEN>>>>>
Michael replies, "We'll be pulling out when the seventh and last trumpet blows."
MARILYN>>>>>
Do you realize that if this were true, the saints would receive the 7 trumpet judgments on the Day of God's Wrath? The Day of God's Wrath comes in Rev. 6:17, before the first trumpet sounds in Rev. 8. Rev. 6:17 says, "the great DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
MY ANSWER>>>>>>
Marilyn I am not a Greek scholar but my understanding of the words "IS COME" in the Rev.6:17 verse above is that the grammar denotes an imminent overhanging event about to transpire. So the 6th seal is a sombre time when those on earth know that God's wrath will soon be poured out on the wicked and the wicked tares are soon to be gathered by the angels of wrath. Jesus said clearly when interpreting the parable for His disciples that the tares are gathered first.-Mat.13:30
MARILYN>>>>>>
All 7 trumpets are sounded by angels. Haven't you noticed that the "trump of GOD" sounds at the Rapture? God is not an angel. He does not sound the 7th trumpet. I Thess. 4:16-18 says, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore COMFORT one another
with these words."
MY ANSWER>>>>>
I do not see a problem with the "trump of God" which heralds the
resurrection-rapture being sounded by His angels. God delegates a lot of His sovereign edicts to His angels. So I believe that the 7th trumpet being the "last trumpet" offers no insurmountable problem.
MARILYN>>>>>>
I Thess. 5:9 says, "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." We are not to receive the 1st trumpet judgment, much less the rest of them. Do you think God would leave his saints on Earth when the two asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth when the 2nd and 3rd trumpets sound? Is that what we are to COMFORT each other with? No!
MY ANSWER>>>>
I totally agree with you on this one, Marilyn. God has not appointed us to wrath. The trumpet judgments are severe but the scriptures do not speak of them as the wrath of God. As for asteroid impacts can we be sure that this is what the scriptures are saying in Rev. 8:8,10? The fifth trumpet is specifically delivered to the wicked on an individual basis and demonic agony is given to those on earth who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Saints will be unaffected by this. Similarly with 1st and 5th bowls specifically poured out on the wicked. We can safely assume that those with God's mark are protected. The Bible does however speak of the wrath of God being identified with the 7 bowl judgements.-"Then one of the four living creatures gave to the 7 angels 7 golden bowls full of thewrath of God."-Rev.15:7
The bowl judgements as with the plagues in Egypt do not mean that the saints will be subject to the wrath of God. As with the Israelites in Goshen at the time of the exodus, they will be divinely protected, protected in ways that we have not yet been fully informed. We know that God's angels will gather the elect. They will be safe and protected until the 7th trumpet/7th bowl "end of the age" sees them all glorified in the resurrection-rapture.
MARILYN>>>>>>
Rev. 11:17,18 places all saints in Heaven receiving their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ at the same time that the unbelievers on Earth are receiving their just rewards for their unbelief. It says, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."
MY ANSWER>>>>
The ones in heaven in Rev.11:15-19 are the twenty four elders. It is quite a stretch to say that 24 elders = the church in heaven.
I believe it is taking a bit too much liberty with the scriptures to make that identification. The intent of course is to get the saints to the heaven early. I don't know if the scriptures tell us just who the 24 elders are, Marilyn, but it would not be too much of a speculation to suggest that they may have been 24 prominent saints who rose with Jesus at His firsrtfruits resurrection at Nisan17, 32A.D., on the resurrection day of our Lord Jesus.
The 24 elders scene is a court scene at the throne of God. God is not an autocrat. He pronounces His sovereign judgements in the courts above in the company of angels and in this case the witness of 24 elders that Jesus brought with Him at His resurrection..
MARILYN>>>>
We are to be kept out of the trial that is to come upon all the world. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM (ek, out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
MY ANSWER>>>>>>
The word "keep" carries the meaning "preserve". The Greek word "ek" carries the meaning "in, through and out of"So Rev 3:10 instead of proving a physical escape actually refers to a spiritual preservation in, through, and out of the "hour" of our trial. If you look through Foxe's book of martyrs you will see repeated examples of saints being delivered in their own personal "hour of trial". God preserves His own unto Himself in their witness for Him at that short "hour of trial". Many times the onlookers were amazed that the saints. Even when being burned at the stake, for instance, they were not in agony but were actually in a state of ecstasy. God had
covered them. They felt no pain or suffering in the actual "hour of trial". John Huss got little assistance as he sat in his cell the night before he was to be burned at the stake. He put his finger in the flame, pulling it back and wondering how on earth he was going to face the stake the next day. But when the "hour" came, God was all over Him. He died singing praises to His beloved Lord. His witness turned Europe upside down and pulled us out of the dark ages. Our covenant is a blood covenant. Few it seems are able to receive this. But they will. The scriptures are clear. God will lead His people on, --- to glory.
MARILYN>>>>
Therefore, we are to watch and pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape these terrible things. In Lu. 21:36, Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
MY ANSWER>>>>
God can and does preserve His people physically but not always so. Spiritual preservation is what is in view here. Our flesh will not last forever. Our souls will last forever. They will either be preserved by God or lost for all eternity.. But as the verse you shared says, He calls on us to "watch and pray that we be accounted worthy to escape from out of these trials and to stand before the Son of Man" when He comes. Unfortunately many shall fall away from the faith in the endtime drama.-2Thes. 2:3 That is all the more
reason that the saints be prepared. We are being led to procure our oil for the lamps as darkness falls.
MARILYN>>>>>>
Only the wise virgins who have prepared themselves go with the Bridegroom when he comes. The foolish virgins are left behind. The difference is that the wise have allowed Jesus to wash their feet, as Jesus washed Peter's feet. How do we do this? We use I Jn. 1:9, confess sins committed after we first accepted Christ, so he can cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." The wise virgins are ready. They are in fellowship with our Holy God. They have enough oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies). They will "escape all these things
that shall come to pass, and...stand before the Son of man" in Heaven the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture.
MY ANSWER>>>>>
I agree that preparation is the big theme of the parable of the 10 virgins. And I fully agree with you on the oil being our preparation in the Holy Spirit. How few today are aware of that need. Perhaps you and I can help to awaken them to their responsibility to the witness of the covenant. And remind them of their glorious destiny.
I do pray God will continue to richly bless you in your ministry. Blessings to you on the journey, Blessings to all that love His appearing, Gavin Finley MD
In Green's Interlinear, he translates Rev. 6:17 thus. "because the great day of His wrath HAS COME, and who is able to stand?"
The exact same spelling of "elthen" ("IS COME") appears in all these verses.
Rev. 6:17: "For the great day of his wrath IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
Rev. 11:18: "thy wrath IS COME"
Rev. 14:7: "the hour of his judgment IS COME"
Rev. 14:15: "the time IS COME for thee to reap"
Rev. 19:7: "the marriage of the Lamb IS COME"
I take all of these as meaning that the exact time of that event has come. I think Rev. 6:17 means that it is 6:00 PM, the moment that the Day of God's Wrath begins.
Notice that the 2nd Rapture takes place next. Rev. 7:9,14 says, "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." These are in Heaven before the 7 trumpet judgments of Rev. 8 begin to sound.
> > the tares are gathered first.-Mat.13:30
Mt. 13:30 says, "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." The binding in bundles might turn out to be the dividing of the world into the ten divisions under the one world government. This has already been done, but the 10 kings have not yet received their crowns. That happens in Rev. 13 as the Tribulation begins.
By the beginning of the Tribulation, the 1st Rapture has already taken place. The main Bride of Christ, the group of wise virgins of Mt. 25, is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:8-10. It says, "...golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of SAINTS. And THEY sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth." This is the 1st group seen in Heaven.
Notice that the 2nd group seen in Heaven, in Rev. 7:9,14, are not said to be kings and priests. They too are "OUT OF ALL NATIONS, AND KINDREDS, AND PEOPLE, AND TONGUES," but they are "before the throne of God, and SERVE him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15).
> > I believe that the 7th trumpet being the "last trumpet" offers no insurmountable problem.
To me it does, because those are trumpets of judgment. We are to be in heaven getting our rewards at the time that those trumpets sound (Rev. 11:18). The first "trump of God" sounds for the 1st Rapture in I Thess. 4:16. The "last trump" of God sounds when the Tribulation saints are caught up in the 2nd Rapture, in I Cor. 15:52. I hope you are planning to be caught up at the FIRST trump, not the LAST trump. I think the first trump is for the wise virgins, the last trump for the foolish virgins.
Nu. 10:2-4 says, "Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly (i.e., the rest of the saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture) shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (the elders, caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture), shall gather themselves unto thee." The main Bride of Christ is caught up at the first trump.
> > The trumpet judgments are severe but the scriptures do not speak of them as the wrath of God.
Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" It precedes Rev. 7, which is the Pre-Wrath Rapture, and Rev. 8, which starts off the 7 trumpet judgments cast on Earth on the Day of God's Wrath. The Rapture probably takes place in the night. It has to be before noon, when the asteroids impact Earth.
> > As for asteroid impacts can we be sure that this is what the scriptures are saying in Rev. 8:8,10?
I'm convinced. When the "great mountain burning with fire" is "cast in the sea" in Rev. 8:8, it hits in the Mediterranean Sea. Zeph. 2:3-7 says, " Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the SEA COAST, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant. And the sea coast shall be dwellings and cottages for shepherds, and folds for flocks. And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah; they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the LORD their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity."
Job 20:23 says, "When he (the wicked one) is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating." Amos 8:9,10 says, " it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause THE SUN TO GO DOWN AT NOON, and I will darken the earth in the clear day: And I will turn your feasts (it's the Feast of Trumpets) into mourning." Psa. 91:5,6 says, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the DESTRUCTION THAT WASTETH AT NOONDAY."
When the "great mountain burning with fire" is "cast into the sea," Eze. 38:18-20 will be fulfilled. It says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the FISHES OF THE SEA, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and the mountains (two great pieces, probably of a binary asteroid) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."
The 2nd "aster" star, meteor or asteroid to fall will destroy Babylon. Rev. 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up a STONE like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." This is the "great star (aster) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" of Rev. 8:10.
Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here (at Babylon), as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (after his planet Rahab was split apart, Satan lives on an asteroid)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently turn and TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."
When the "flaming sword which turned every way" (rotated and orbited) was set to the east of Eden in Gen. 3;24, I think it represented this asteroid. Man was driven out of Eden and he should not go back to that area for his own good.
> > demonic agony is given to those on earth who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Saints will be unaffected by this.
This is true of the saints that were caught up in the Raptures prior to the asteroid opening the bottomless pit.
> > We can safely assume that those with God's mark are protected.
Yes. They are safely in Heaven, caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. The 7 trumpet judgments start in Rev. 8.
> > The Bible does however speak of the wrath of God being identified with the 7 bowl judgements
Yes. The 7 trumpet judgments all fall on one day, the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. The bowls of wrath fill up the wrath of God spread over a bit more time as the devastation spreads. For instance, in Rev. 8:8, "a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the THIRD PART OF THE SEA became blood." A little later on we read in Rev. 16:3 that "the sea...became as the blood of a dead man: and EVERY LIVING SOUL DIED IN THE SEA."
> > The ones in heaven in Rev.11:15-19 are the twenty four elders. It is quite a stretch to say that 24 elders = the church in heaven. I believe it is taking a bit too much liberty with the scriptures to make that identification.
In the OT days, the course of priests that were on duty represented all the priests. In our gov't, our Senators and Representatives represent all of us in Congress. So the elders also are our representatives before the throne of God. They give our prayers to the Lord. Rev. 5:8-10 says, "when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of SAINTS. And THEY (the saints) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth."
There are 24 elders, 12 patriarchs of Israel and 12 apostles, that represent this group "OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION." I thank God that there are more saints in this group than just 24.
> > Rev 3:10 instead of proving a physical escape actually refers to a spiritual preservation in, through, and out of the "hour" of our trial.
I think you will find out different soon enough. I Thess. 1:10 says, "to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." I Thess. 5:9 says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." It doesn't matter which Rapture you are caught up in, you won't be here when the 7th trumpet sounds. You will be in Heaven listening to the trumpets, but the action they unleash will fall on Earth.
Psa. 91:3-9 says, "Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the DESTRUCTION THAT WASTETH AT NOONDAY. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. ONLY WITH THINE EYES SHALT THOU BEHOLD AND SEE THE REWARD OF THE WICKED. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy HABITATION."
> > Unfortunately many shall fall away from the faith in the endtime drama.-2Thes. 2:3
The "apostasia," translated "falling away" in the KJV, means departure. It comes first, before the False Prophet is revealed. It is the Pre-Trib Rapture, the departure of the Bride group, the wise virgins, the Philadelphians. He apostasia was translated "departure" in early Bibles, The Geneva Bible, Tyndale's translation, Cranmer's version, the Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's translation and the Coverdale Bible. Agape
The jews are ready to set a cornerstone for the third temple on the temple mount. Either a mosk will need to be removed, or the temple will be built next to it.
This is why they have been fighting. The cornerstone (4 and a half tons), is on the back of a flatbed truck ready to go. Be ready!
17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
NOTE: v4 - tabernacles are mentioned. Does this mean that this event took place during Succoth?
If yes then v1 may indicate that it took place on the 6th day of Succoth.
If these assumptions are valid could the 6th day of Succoth (Oct 19-20) be the day the two witnesses appear???? Further could the 'bringeth them up' in v1 be the rapture and could the Tranfiguration be what happens to us in the Twinkling of an eye on the same day?
I look forward to your thoughts
I don't know, but it seems to suggest that. I just don't know how to take Peter's "not knowing what he said." Lu. 9:28-36 says, " it came to pass ABOUT AN EIGHT DAYS after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: NOT KNOWING WHAT HE SAID. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone."
> > then v1 may indicate that it took place on the 6th day of Succoth
Mt. 17:1 says, "AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them." Mark 9:2 also has "AFTER SIX DAYS." However, Lu. 9:28 says, " it came to pass ABOUT AN EIGHT DAYS."
I don't know if it applies to the Feast of Tabernacles or not, but I have sure wondered if it could apply to years. Seven years plus something less than another full year since the Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel on Tishri 1, 5754 (Sept. 16, 1993) seems to be in the ball park for the Rapture. Since a mountain can represent the heavenly planet and a kingdom, seeing 3 of the elders of Rev. 4:4 going up suggests the Rapture. Seeing the kingdom of God and seeing Jesus transfigured do too. The view of him in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1 is glorious. Tishri 1, 5754 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5761 (Sept. 30, 2000). If this is an indicator, we are in the extra part of a year right now. Ascension Day would fit nicely.
> > could the 6th day of Succoth (Oct 19-20) be the day the two witnesses appear
I expect them to appear next Pentecost, Sivan 6, 5761 (May 28, 2001) the 1st of the 2300 days that end on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. The "ABOUT AN EIGHT DAYS" would hold true for their appearance.
> > could the 'bringeth them up' in v1 be the rapture and could the Tranfiguration be what happens to us in the Twinkling of an eye on the same day?
I think it could picture the Rapture. Being transfigured fits Christ on that day. Whether it fits us also, I don't know. The scripture about being changed is in I Cor. 15:51,52. That is at the last trump, the 2nd Rapture, when the Tribulation saints are caught up (Rev. 7:9,14). We want to be in the group caught up at the first trump (I Thess. 4:16: Rev.4:1; 5:9). Agape
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