Posted 2-18-01
I believe I Cor. 5:19: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."
Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH the King of Israel), AND I am the last (the redeemer the YHVH of hosts, i.e., Christ); and beside me there is no God." Isa. 45:21,22 says, " there is no God else beside me; a just God AND a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
Whether in the Old Testament or the New Testament, the Saviour is Christ. In the OT, he was the pre-incarnate Christ. In the NT, he Is the incarnate Christ. He is the one with whom man had to deal from the first.
He was the one that talked to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Isa. 48:16-18 says, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD (the Father), and his Spirit (the Holy Spirit), hath sent me (the Son, the pre-incarnate Christ). Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer (Saviour), the Holy One of Israel; I AM THE LORD (YHVH) THY GOD which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea."
In the 1st chapter of Revelation, v. 8, Jesus said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the ending, saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY." Isa. 9:6 says, "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace." In John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."
In the last chapter of the Bible, vs. 13,16, Jesus said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the end, the first AND the last....I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHVH king of Israel) AND the offspring of David (Jesus Christ)." Agape
I also have question on 2Peter3:12, "Looking for and hastening unto the coming of the day of God.... this is only the beginning of the verse but my question is can we, as children of the most High God, if we pray daily and with fervor, help to bring the rapture in? Was this always a part of God's plan? Remember the Jews were prophesied to remain in Egypt for 430 years, yet we are told that toward the end of this time they called out to God to save them and in the fullness of time, He sent them Moses. Did God hear our prayers before the foundation of the worlds, and will have mercy on us and will take us to Himself sooner? Should we not only pray to be included in the bridal rapture, but also that the Lord will hasten his coming?
I hope I explained myself to you. I pray for you and Ed and long to meet you at Home, with all "who love his appearing."
> > the saddest verse in Scripture. It was, Jeremiah 8:20. "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."
In Jer. 8:10,11,15, it is easy to see that it applies to the Tribulation. It says, "from the prophet (False Prophet, Rev. 13:11-18) even unto the priest (Tribulation Pope, Rev. 13:1-10) every one dealeth falsely. For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, PEACE, PEACE; WHEN THERE IS NO PEACE....We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold TROUBLE!" In v. 16, Dan is mentioned, the tribe of the False Prophet. Verse 17's "I will send serpents" parallels Rev. 16:13,14's "spirits of devils."
After that background, Jer. 8:20 is packed with meaning. I think the harvest is the Pre-Trib Rapture on Pentecost, the beginning of wheat harvest. Since the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the Feast of Trumpets, when summer is ended, even that last-minute Rapture is over and gone. Those not saved that live through the catastrophe that strikes at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on that Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord will be facing the 5 months of torture in Rev. 9. They will indeed be sad.
The Pre-Trib harvest, and those foolish virgins who are cut off, are seen in Isa. 18:3-6. It says, "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign (flag) on the mountains (nations, i.e., the united nations); and when he (the Lord, I Thess. 4:16) bloweth a trumpet, hear ye. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider (nabat, see) in my dwelling place (Heaven) like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of HARVEST (the Pre-Trib Rapture). For afore the harvest (probably on Ascension Day), when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches. They (the unfruitful foolish virgins) shall be LEFT together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts (Beast and False Prophet) of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them (the Pre-Trib Rapture is in the spring), and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them." Rev. 24:20,21 says, "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter...For then shall be great tribulation." Those foolish virgins that are not ready when the Bridegroom comes will be on Earth during the last half of the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation. There is no Rapture for them in the middle of the Tribulation. I think the 2nd Rapture is on the 2300th day of the Tribulation, just before God's Wrath is poured out on unbelievers at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5).
> > I also have question on 2Peter3:12, "Looking for and hastening unto the coming of the day of God.... this is only the beginning of the verse but my question is can we, as children of the most High God, if we pray daily and with fervor, help to bring the rapture in?
I don't think so. This is not the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is "the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved; and the elements shall melt with fervent heat," the Day of God's Wrath. Hastening is "speudo," to urge on diligently or earnestly. I am reminded of Joel 2:16-18. When Israel is being attacked by the united nations' army led by Gog, it says, "Gather the people (Pre-Wrath Rapture), sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber (cheder, inner enclosed place, apartment), and the bride out of her closet (chuppah, wedding canopy, this is the day of the Marriage of the Lamb). Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people." This is when the saints plead for the Lord to save Israel. They urge on earnestly, spare thy people, O LORD.
I think the day of the Rapture was set before this kosmos began. It will happen right on schedule, as will all the other end-time prophecies. Agape
It is very interesting and Chapter 5 which reviews the Jewish customs and traditions related to marriage and adultery may shed some light on the questions that arise when discussing whether we can know the day of the Lord's return. On page 114 in a discussion of "The Days Before the Wedding..." the following is written -
"Before the wedding ceremony the groom established and built a home for his future bride. He and his father make all the arrangements for the wedding ceremony and the banquet.
It was the bridegroom's father who decided when the wedding preparations were complete. When the chuppah (wedding chamber) was complete and he was satisfied with all the preparations, he gave permission to announce the time of the wedding. If during the preparation time the bridegroom was asked, 'When will the wedding be?' he was to reply, 'No man knows except my father.'"
Could it be that Jesus was making the traditional reply that a bridegroom would make when asked a question that would reveal the time of his wedding? What do you think? Also, following the tradition (not inspired by God), if the preparations are now complete it may be acceptable for the time of the wedding to become known. Could this relate to knowledge being increased (about the timing of these events)? What do you think?
Whatever Jesus said was true, down to the tiniest detail. He phrased things carefully. The wedding is not at the Rapture. I think the Marriage of the Lamb is on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Mt. 24:36 is talking about when the heavens and the elements of Earth will pass away in the asteroid impact. The apostles were not to know the times or seasons until after the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost. After that, Paul was caught up to Heaven. An "abundance of the revelations" were given him (II Cor. 12:2-7). John was also given an abundance of revelations c. 96 AD.
Now is the time for knowledge to be increased too. I think we can now know when the asteroid will strike and "Heaven (the atmospheric heavens) and earth (some of it) shall pass away" (Mt. 24:35). I think the 2nd Rapture is before the 2 main pieces (Rev. 8:8,10) hit Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). I Peter 3:10-13 says, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." We do not know just when the Lord will refresh the heavens and the earth. He will need to do it early in the Millennium to make Earth a fit habitat for man. This refreshing will probably have something to do with man living longer, like Adam did after the Earth was refreshed in his day.
So, I think we can now know when "Heaven and earth shall pass away" (Mt. 24:35), but not when the renovation, the "new (kainos, new in freshness, refreshed) heavens and a new (refreshed) earth," will take place. Maybe we can know when the Rapture will happen. Time will tell on that. I'm looking forward to this upcoming Pentecost, hoping that will be the day. We are called wheat, and the wheat harvest starts on Pentecost. It is in the spring, as Song of Sol. 2:10-14 suggests. Agape
Also - it is interesting - the Mormons believe that the Jesus and the Father and Mother God (!-yikes!) reside on a planet called Kolob. I just think it is amazing why spiritual beings would bother living on planets in our universe.
I believe it could be so - but I just wonder what your thoughts are. I won't believe fully unless the Lord tells me Saturn is where He lives. I believe He can, so I'd better start asking! I think your scriptures on it aren't bad....
How can I see Saturn in the night sky from by back yard- Where in the sky to I need to look? Agape and thanks
All I know is what I find in the Bible. I can give you some scriptures to ponder.
Earth was given to man. The planet Rahab (now our Asteroid Belt) seems to have been given to Satan. I think Saturn is the place of Christ's throne. Psa. 115:16: "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." Psa. 78:69: "he built his sanctuary LIKE HIGH PALACES, LIKE THE EARTH (a spherical planet) which he hath established for ever."
YHVH fills heaven and earth, but there is a definite place for the throne of Jesus Christ. Jer. 23:24: "Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD." Just as Earth is a real place, Heaven is a real place. Isa. 66:1: "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Heb. 10:34: "knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an ENDURING SUBSTANCE."
Isa. 37:16: "O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims (planets), thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth." I Cor. 15:47: "The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven."
John 14:2-4: "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare A PLACE for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And WHITHER I GO YE KNOW." The planets Mercury through Saturn were known to the ancients. Mt. 6:19: "lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal."
Heaven is a rock high above Earth. Psa. 61:2: "From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to THE ROCK that is higher than I." Psa. 103:11: "the heaven is high above the earth." Ex. 24:10: "they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven (heavenly body) in his clearness." Sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani ,Saturn, and priya, dear. Eze. 1:26: "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (above the cherubim, the 4 terrestrial planets) was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it."
Heaven has thick clouds and moves along the ecliptic, as the Sun, Moon and planets do. Job 22:13,14: "thou sayest, How doth God know? can he judge through the dark cloud? Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit (orbit along the ecliptic) of heaven." Planets travel along the ecliptic. Stars do not.
The Heaven is the 3rd heaven, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. II Cor. 12:2: "I knew a man in Christ (Paul himself, v. 3-7) above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN."
Amos 9:6: "It is he that buildeth his stories (maalah, upper room, lofty place) in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name."
Since the LORD buildeth his upper room in the heaven, it seems significant that the disciples were assembled in the upper room when the Spirit of Christ came upon them on Pentecost. Will we be in the heavenly upper room on Pentecost?...
I doubt that you can see Taurus in February in Australia. Saturn is in Taurus and in March will be lost in the Solar glare for awhile as it goes on the other side of the Sun. I don't see Taurus on the Southern Hemisphere View for February in Kerrod's Star Guide. Agape
"In Jewish tradition three trumpets are given names in connection to the feasts: the First Shofar, the Last Shofar, and the Great Shofar (Hebrew-Shofar HaGadol). The First Shofar is associated with the Feast of Pentecost, the Last Shofar with The Day of Trumpets, and the Great Shofar with the Day of Atonement."
This Jewish tradition would seem to back up the possibility that the pre-tribulation rapture could be on Pentecost with the First Shofar (first trumpet) and the pre-wrath rapture would be on The Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1) with the Last Shofar (Last Trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52). I'm not sure about the Great Shofar.
The nation will be saved in a day on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium (Isa. 66:8). It seems logical that they will repent during the Days of Awe and be accepted on the Day of Atonement. The Feast of Tabernacles follows, during which they will probably have Scripture read to them. That seems like a good time for them to rejoice that the Lord fought for them and saved Israel from being wiped off the map. Tabernacles is a happy feast. Agape
"In Jewish tradition three trumpets are given names in connection to the feasts: the First Shofar, the Last Shofar, and the Great Shofar (Hebrew-Shofar HaGadol). The First Shofar is associated with the Feast of Pentecost, the Last Shofar with The Day of Trumpets, and the Great Shofar with the Day of Atonement."
This Jewish tradition would seem to back up the possibility that the pre-tribulation rapture could be on Pentecost with the First Shofar (first trumpet) and the pre-wrath rapture would be on The Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1) with the Last Shofar (Last Trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52). I'm not sure about the Great Shofar.
The nation will be saved in a day on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium (Isa. 66:8). It seems logical that they will repent during the Days of Awe and be accepted on the Day of Atonement. The Feast of Tabernacles follows, during which they will probably have Scripture read to them. That seems like a good time for them to rejoice that the Lord fought for them and saved Israel from being wiped off the map. Tabernacles is a happy feast.
Three groups of people that are saved, 3 feasts, fulfilled in order: First trump - Pre-Trib Rapture of the Bride of Christ Last trump - Pre-Wrath Rapture of the rest of the Body of Christ Great trump - Acceptance of the remnant that will live on Earth during the Millennium. Agape
Actually the previous verse (Rev. 5:8) ends with "...and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." It doesn't actually say that the saints are there in heaven. Are these supposedly prayers made by the saints while they are heaven? Or is this referring to prayers of the saints who are on earth. Or are Christians only called saints after death (I'm not sure exactly how this term is used - please excuse my ignorance)? Actually, this may be answering my own question - I just checked Websters and it says:
saint n. 1.a. One officially recognized, especially by canonization, as being entitled to public veneration. b. One who has died and gone to heaven. 2. A patient, unselfish, highly virtuous person.
Is the meaning of "saints" in verse 8 the same as 1.b. above. If so, then I think I understand and agree with your conclusion. If not, then I guess I need more evidence. Is the reference to who is making the statements in verse 9 more clear in the original Greek? (I checked Strong's and it seems to support the idea that "saints" here is closer to definition 2. from Websters).
I think that Rev 4:1 where John is caught up supports your conclusion. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Isn't this representative of the pre-tribulation rapture? John is caught up as we will be and then shown things that "must be hereafter".
Are there other verses that identify those "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" referred to in verse 9 and to verify that they are in heaven before the tribulation begins? I'm not trying to disprove the conclusions you have reached. I'm just trying to make sure I don't jump to conclusions with the first verse that can be shoe-horned into meaning what I want it to mean. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and efforts and if I answered my own question in the first paragrpah with the definition of "saint" please forgive my rambling - actually, please forgive my rambling in any case.
Psa. 16:3 shows that people can be saints upon the Earth. It says, "But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight. Saints can also be in Heaven. Psa. 149:5 says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds." Psa. 50:5 shows who are saints. It says, "Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice." Eph. 2:9 says, "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God."
> > Actually the previous verse (Rev. 5:8) ends with "...and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." It doesn't actually say that the saints are there in heaven.
The elders are 24 Israelites. They cannot be out of every nation. They are out of one nation. The saints sing "a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and NATION."
Eph. 4:30 says, "grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION." The day of redemption is the day we are caught up to Heaven. Luke 21:28 says, "when these things begin to come to pass, then LOOK UP, and lift up your heads; for YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH." Rom. 8:23 says, "not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY." Eph. 1:12-14 says, "trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION."
Some saints sing a new song after each Rapture. Rev. 14:3 says of the 144 thousand Israelites caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, "they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These WERE REDEEMED FROM AMONG MEN, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb." If these are caught up from the Earth, so are those who sing a new song in Rev. 5:9.
Rev. 5:10 says, "And hast (past tense) made us unto our God KINGS and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth." These Philadelphian saints have their crowns we saw mentioned in Rev. 3:11. Jesus said, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy CROWN."
> > Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Isn't this representative of the pre-tribulation rapture?
Yes. All of the 24 elders, of which John is one, are caught up to Heaven when John is. In Rev. 4:4, we see all 24 sitting on thrones. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the Rapture. That is when he is revealed to us. Revelation is written as if the Rapture is at hand. It is "at hand" in both the 1st and last chapters (1:3, 22:10), and Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5; 3:10).
The whole book is organized around the Pre-Trib Rapture. In 1:19, John is told to "Write the things which thou hast seen (things before the Rapture), and the things which are (at the Rapture), and the things which shall be HEREAFTER (after the Rapture)." Rev. 4:1 says, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER" (i.e., after the Rapture).
> > Are there other verses that identify those "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" referred to in verse 9 and to verify that they are in heaven before the tribulation begins?
Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Isa. 57:1,15 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, ESCAPES), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY (acaph, taken up, gathered up, removed), none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME....For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place (Heaven), with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit." Agape
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Updated 2-18-01