Posted 2-25-01
If we believe that we are living in the last days, then we must believe there are false teachers among us. I am not referring to the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, but teachers among us. Those who will say "Lord we did all these things in your name", and he will say, "I know ye not". Judas walked with Christ. Friend, know that there are false teachers who teach false doctrine among us.
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus will return before the tribulation? Now, please don't write back and show me many scriptures that are supposed to prove that the rapture is true. I am familiar with endtime verses. I believe these verses speak of the time when the bible says that Jesus will return (after the tribulation). I don't disagree that Christ is returning, the problem is the bible does not say that it will be before the tribulation.
Is it safe to assume that this doctrine, that does not appear in the bible is of the Lord?
Matt 24:29 states that Christ will return after the tribulation, yet some refer to this as the second coming. Can we really undo what the word of God says to fit our own interpretation? Rapture and second coming are terms that do not appear in the bible: neither does Christ coming before the tribulation. Is this doctrine scripturally sound enough for the sake of your children?
In all the end time references made to Christ's return in the bible, not one -- mentions him returning before the tribulation. This is so important to grasp because people are betting their lives on this lie.
I could discuss scripture, I am sure you know them because you have your own website, but let's be real. DOES THE BIBLE REALLY SAY THAT JESUS IS COMING BACK BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
If not, then how can you be 100% sure you'll be raptured if the Word of God does not say so?
To believe this doctrine is to rely heavily upon the interpretation of man rather than the word of God.
A PRETRIBULATION RETURN IS NOT SCRIPTURAL!
Just as other false doctrine and cults are here, we can use the bible to say almost anything we want to say when we decide to accept ideas that are outside of the word of God.
Please consider these words....email me for further discussion.
Once again, please don't argue with scripture that the rapture is true. His return is true. Just explain to me with scripture where it says Christ is returning before the tribulation.
My purpose is not to be argumentative, but to get you to consider the facts based on the Word. Sincerely
> > can you be 100% certain that we will be raptured?
No. I might die first, and I can't speak for you (see the "we" above), but I am 100% certain that there will be a Rapture and that the wise Philadelphian virgins will go with the Bridegroom when he comes for his Bride. I am not like you, who "have no hope" and no "comfort." I am living "soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (aioni, age); Looking for that BLESSED HOPE, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). The next 2 verses add, "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (the Laodiceans are not "zealous," Rev. 3:19). These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
I Thess. 4:13-18 says, " I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren (believers), concerning them which are asleep (the dead in Christ), that ye sorrow not, even as OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Old English for precede) them which are asleep (including the apostles). For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (the first one): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo, taken up by force) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore COMFORT one another with these words."
> > Rapture and second coming are terms that do not appear in the bible
In John 14:3, Jesus said, "if I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME AGAIN, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Is that close enough for you?
The Greek word "harpazo" is also used in II Cor. 12:2,4, where Paul was "caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven ....he was caught up (harpazo) into paradise." This demonstrates what will happen at the Rapture.
II Cor. 12:2 in the Latin Vulgate says, "scio hominem in Christo ante annos quattuordecim sive in corpore nescio sive extra corpus nescio Deus scit RAPTUM eiusmodi usque ad tertium caelum."
II Cor. 12:4 says, "quoniam RAPTUS est in paradisum et audivit arcana verba quae non licet homini loqui."
II Thess. 4:17 says, "deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul RAPIEMIR cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus."
Our English word Rapture comes from "RAPIEMIR," "RAPTUM" and "RAPTUS." It means being "caught up to the third heaven...into paradise," as Paul demonstrated.
Not only was Paul caught up to Heaven to show us what happens at the Rapture, but Moses and Elijah hear "COME UP HITHER," as John hears it in Rev. 4:1, "And they ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them (Rev. 11:12)." That is exactly what we will do when we hear Christ say, "Come up hither." We will rise with John before Christ is given the little book, the Title Deed of the Earth, before he breaks the 1st seal on the book. We will be among the saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9). John is one of the elders. We will be "unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth" (Rev. 5:10).
We will return with Christ at the Second Advent, which follows the 2nd Rapture by 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13). Zech. 14:5 says, "and the LORD my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE." Rev. 19:14 says, "And the armies WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." All the saints have to already be in Heaven to return with Christ at the Second Advent.
The first Rapture is Pre-Trib. We see this group in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, before the first seal is broken. The second Rapture is Pre-Wrath. We see the second group in Heaven in Rev. 7:14, before the 7th seal is broken. Both groups are gathered to the assembly in Heaven on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord, 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). Mark 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those already caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture).
This assembly is an important one. This is the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14). I believe it is the day Christ is crowned King of kings and Lord of lords, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Day of God's Wrath, and the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the Feast of Trumpets.
Rev. 11:17,18 tells us of that day. It says, "We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast REIGNED. And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, SMALL AND GREAT; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
Heb. 12:22-25 also tells us of that day. It says, "ye are come unto mount Sion (the heavenly one), and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly (lit., festal assembly) and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."
Mt. 24:31 is talking about this day. It only tells us of those taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture being gathered. It says, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." Everything mentioned in Mt. 24:27-31 happens on this day, and it is 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13).
> > Where in the bible does it say that Jesus will return before the tribulation?
Those saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" are in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, before the 1st seal is broken in Rev. 6.
Isa. 57:1 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, ESCAPES), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away (acaph, REMOVED, TAKEN UP), none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY (acaph, REMOVED, TAKEN UP) FROM THE EVIL TO COME."
In Rev. 3:10, Jesus says to the Philadelphians, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE FROM (ek, out of) THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION (pierasmos, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
> > "Let no man deceive you. (Mark 13:5) I am telling you ahead of time." (Mark 13:23) These are the things that are to precede Christ's coming.
The Raptures precede the Second Advent. Mark 13:23 (KJV) says, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." The Pre-Trib Rapture is scriptural. Notice that people see the first Rapture and fear, and trust in the Lord. Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. HE BROUGHT ME UP also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (out of Earth, as when Jeremiah was raised up out of the pit of miry clay), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture in Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, AND FEAR, AND SHALL TRUST IN THE LORD."
> > DOES THE BIBLE REALLY SAY THAT JESUS IS COMING BACK BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
You bet it does, but he meets his Bride (Mt. 25:1f) in the air (I Thess. 4:17). He doesn't put his feet on the Mt. of Olives until the Second Advent. The Mt. of Olives does not split at the Rapture. It splits at the Second Advent. (Zech. 14:4). They are separate events.
If the saints were to be on Earth until the Second Advent, they would have the Wrath of God cast on them. That won't wash. I Thess. 5:9 says, "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." All the saints are in Heaven 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13).
> > Matt 24:29 states that Christ will return after the tribulation, yet some refer to this as the second coming.
Mt. 24:29 says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." Where does it state "that Christ will return after the tribulation"?
Verse 30 says, "And then shall appear the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven." This is a sign, not the Second Advent. In Mt. 24:3, the disciples asked Jesus, "what shall be the SIGN of thy coming." This is the SIGN of his coming, not his actual coming, which is 7 months later. Rev. 6:14-17 tells us about this sign. It says, "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
This is not the Second Advent. It is the Day of God's Wrath that precedes the Second Advent by 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13). Mt. 24:27-31 all takes place on the Day of God's Wrath. When the 6th seal is broken, Rev. 6:12 says, "when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood." Amos 8:9 says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at NOON, and I will darken the earth in the clear day"
What happens at "NOON" on the Day of God's Wrath? The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea. Zeph. 2:4,5 says, "Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast."
> > "Friend, know that there are false teachers who teach false doctrine among us."
Amen. Are you guilty? Don't forget about I John 1:9. Agape
I don't see how the Psalms tell the years. The new song is sung after the Rapture (Rev. 5:9). We find it in Psa. 33:3; 40:3; 96:1; 98:1; 144:9; and 149:1. Are any of those years the year of the Rapture?
> > It is still the wise men that seek Jesus!
Amen. Agape
But first, I must tell you that I was totally awestruck. And afterwards, since I am too, too analytical and prone to hyper-analyze away bizarre events, I chalked up my interpretation of what I had seen as merely a delusion caused by my too-eager hopes that the Rapture will happen soon and my constant reading of material like that which is presented at your site. I understand that what I saw was - in the natural - merely a gathering of clouds and correct angles, and weather conditions, but I was praying right after I saw it and I am sure that God meant it as some sort of sign. Even so, I know that the Adversary is a wily being, and I don't discount the idea that it could have been a delusion.
Second, I did not dream this. This is a real-time event that I saw with my own two eyes.
So, for what it's worth, here goes. I was walking home from Wal-Mart, as I said earlier. It was about 5:30PM Eastern Time. The sun was rather low in the sky as it would be for that time of day. The sun was off to my right. Ahead of me was a cloud bank that was reflecting the sun in what immediately to my mind seemed like the inexplicable glow that is given off by the planet Saturn. The cloud bank was reflecting the sun in such a way that the reflection looked like Saturn. The rings were not tilted up or down, so it was just a thin ring around the equator of this image. The whole sight was as though I was looking out across the solar system and seeing the sun and Saturn. Then, a faint, but definite, straight up and down rainbow appeared stretching from the ground to the image in the cloud-bank. It was just amazing. Even if it means nothing. It was so beautiful. I was immediately struck by its possible spiritual implications and starting talking with God.
I would not have shared this, but I felt so compelled to tell you. It overrode my fear of looking stupid. So, here you have this account.
And afterward, when I had gotten to a point in my walk where the trees were too tall and hid the sight, I just looked straight up and there was a thin veil of clouds scattered across the sky. Very thin, high clouds. Just little faint wisps of cloud. And in them, as though it were an image of the Holy Spirit (a symbol to go with the sight I had seen) was a faint rainbow stretching back from the edge of the clouds. It was so weird and so awesome.
The Lord has been blessing me so much lately with the spirit of confession. As you can imagine, I don't want to miss the Rapture of the Philadelphian-type Wise Virgins who are ready when the Bridegroom comes. I have just been confessing my heart out. I am so looking forward to Jesus' coming back.
What to me is more amazing than what I saw, is the fact that I don't go looking for visions or signs. I am a very down-to-earth, non-fanciful, analytical guy. The thing that got me into God's existence was a comment in a science class when I was in 7th grade. It's the news (both secularly interpreted-like at www.msnbc.com, and spiritually interpreted-like at http://www.jvim.com/cgi-bin/update.cgi) that makes God's existence and the Bible's status as God's inerrant word so apparent to me. So, even though I feel like a kook, I know I'm not.
Take it all for what it's worth, though. The value of the sight I saw plus 60 cents will buy you a decent cup of coffee. Your brother in Christ
When I read about the "straight up and down rainbow appeared stretching from the ground to the image in the cloud-bank," I remember Jacob's ladder. It stretched from Earth to Heaven, and angels were going up and down on it. How could a straight-line "rainbow" appear unless God did it as a sign to you? You are privileged to have seen something so unusual. It's worth is far more than a cup of coffee.
I'm proud of you. You have come a long way from how you sounded when you first e-mailed me. Thank you Lord. Hope I see you after the Rapture. We can really rejoice then. I wanted to say "jump for joy," but I don't know where I'd end up if I jumped. Agape
The words "that there be no gatherings when I come," seem to imply that the saints will have notice that He is coming for them otherwise how could they possible have a last minute chance of gathering their tithes?
Look at I Cor. 16:8,9. It says, "But I will tarry at Ephesus (desirable) until PENTECOST. For a great DOOR and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries." At the Rapture in Rev. 4:1, "a DOOR was opened in heaven: and the first voice (Christ's, Rev. 1:10) which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER." Does this suggest that Heaven's door will open on Pentecost?
How about "as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER"? This is the first "trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16). So, the first trump of God says, "COME UP HITHER."
Nu. 10:1-4 says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (ELDERS, of which Paul and John are also), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE."
Putting it all together, it might mean that at the FIRST TRUMP OF GOD (which says, COME UP HITHER), the 24 elders (12 patriarchs of Israel and 12 apostles) SHALL GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE. This might be on Pentecost, when the "GREAT DOOR" was to be opened for Paul. Agape
Like many others, I have been watching and looking for patterns in what appears to be chaos, to fulfill the command given by Jesus to "Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. We do not say like others, we do not know when the time is, so it is a waste of time to watch. Instead we watch and pray and when we see or hear about someone coming, we wait expectantly to see if it our Jesus coming to take us home.
Now regarding March 6, 2001:
The Lord works in mysterious ways. I have been inundated with 333's lately and March 3, 2001. Note that March 3, 2001 = Third Day of the Third Month of the Third Millennium. (333). This is also the Lord's Day, (Sabbath or Saturday). I had also noted that if one counts inclusively, this was 40 days from January 23, 2001. And it took 40 days for Noah's ark to be lifted completely above the earth after it started to rain.
However, now let's look at March 6, 2001. It is the third day of the week (Tuesday), and the third day following the third day of the third month of the third millennium. For those that fail to see significance in all this, look to the Bible:
Genesis 22:4 "...on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes.."
Genesis 40:20 "...the third day....and lifted up the head..."
Exodus 19:11 "be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down"
Exodus 19:16 "on the third day in the morning...thunders and
lightnings...voice of the trumpet"
Leviticus 7:17 "on the third day shall be burnt with fire."
Leviticus 19:6 "until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire."
Numbers 19:19 "shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day"
I Kings 3:18 "the third day after that I was delivered"
II Kings 20:5 "on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord"
II Kings 20:8 "I shall go up into the house of the Lord the third day"
Hosea 6:2 "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Matthew 16:21 "be raised again the third day"
Matthew 17:23 "and the third day he shall be raised again"
Matthew 20:19 "the third day he shall rise again."
Mark 9:31 "he shall rise the third day."
Mark 10:34 "and the third day he shall rise again."
Luke 9:22 "and be raised the third day."
Luke 13:32 "the third day I shall be perfected"
Luke 18:33 "the third day he shall rise again."
Luke 24:7 "the third day rise again."
As a sidebar, there are those that place John speaking in Revelation on the Lord's Day, 10 days before the rapture. Backing up that would place this on February 24, 2001.
What also points to March 6, 2001? It is 42 days counting from January 23, 2001. To me, God pointed repeatedly to January 23rd in signs for some reason, which Marilyn Agee graciously posted last year. As documented in "The Arithmetic of God", penned by Don Kistler and copyrighted in 1976, it states on page 199, "Number 42 is the number associated with the Coming of Jesus: Both His first coming and the two manifestations at His second advent (He came into the world the first time in the 42nd generation from Abraham). He is coming back for His saints before the 42-month reighn of the beast, perhaps 42 months before the beast's reign begins" Please note that He could be coming back 42 days after January 23, 2001.
Saving the best for last:
It has been suggested that since the Jews follow the Jewish calendar and the Church follows the Christian or Gregorian Calendar, parallels can be drawn accordingly.
Pentecost is celebrated the 6th Day of Sivan in the Jewish calendar. This is the 6th day of the 3rd month in their religious calendar. Their religious calendar either has 12 or 13 months, ending in either Adar I or Adar II respectively, and starting with Nisan, then Iyar, then Sivan. The next sixth day of our 3rd month is March 6, 2001.
Pentecost is also counted as 50 days past Nisan 15, Passover. Hence the name Penta, which means five. Adding , 50 days to 15 days means that it is 65 days after the start of the religious year. During non-leap years in our own calendar such as this year, January has 31 days and February has 28 for a total of 59 days. Adding 6 days to this to bring us to March 6, 2001 giving us 65 days.
So we end up with the same day either way you want to count it. Something to watch. Shalom
I wonder if this 40 days is significant. Ascension Day is on the 40th day after Firstfruits.
> > II Kings 20:8 "I (Hezekiah) shall go up into the house of the Lord the third day"
If the 4 years of the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 started in 1998 (480th year of the Modern Parallels), the 3rd year would be 2001 (1998 + 3 = 2001). In the parable, that is the only year in which Christ speaks. Hezekiah means the might of Yahweh. Interesting. He will probably be part of the 1st Rapture, and maybe it will be in the 3rd year.
> > The next sixth day of our 3rd month is March 6, 2001.
Since the Lord set the feasts according to the Jewish Calendar, I think we have to go by the feast days and the Jewish Calendar.
Pentecost still seems the most likely day for the Rapture to me. Shalom and agape
Four months to the harvest would have put the timing of this statement around Pentacost. Could finishing his work (4 months before the normal harvest time) refer to the first rapture?
Thanks for providing insight. I am spending more time in the Bible than ever before and I am learning a lot.
The beginning of wheat harvest is at Pentecost. That seems the most likely for the Rapture. Four months before that this year would be this month, February. Maybe the fields are white from now to Pentecost. Verse 36 is neat. It says, "And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together." Agape
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