Pro and Con 699

Posted 2-28-01

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Keep up the fine & dedicated task that you are doing. Many thanks.

My reply

Everything seems to point to no later than the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, Sivan 6, 5761 (May 28, 2001) for the Pre-Trib Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation. Here is the way it looks to me. The 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14) fit from Sivan 6, 5761 to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning. There are 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13) between the Day of God's Wrath on the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1, 5768) to the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5768 (April 6, 2008) (Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3), and 5768 is a Jewish Leap Year with a 13th month. In non leap years, there are only 6 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1.

The Sign of the End of the Age was when Israel grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, Sinai) and fulfilled the fig tree parable in the Six-Day War of 1967. Adding a 40-year generation (Mt. 24:32-34) brings us to 2007 for the Tishri 1 Pre-Wrath Rapture and Day of God's Wrath. Adding the 7 months puts the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5768 (April 6, 2008, the anniversary of the Crucifixion on April 6, 30 AD).

Jewish Leap Years make the Second Advent possible in our 2008, 2011 and 2014. Possibilities for the Second Advent in the years following a 2300-day period for the shortened Tribulation are 2008, 2012, 2013 and 2015.

The only common denominator that I can see is 2008. Subtract the 7 months and the 2300 days from Nisan 1, 5768 (April 6, 2008), and we come to Sivan 6, 5761 (May 28, 2001). for the beginning of the Tribulation. It looks like the Pre-Wrath Rapture has to take place by that time.

I can't spot any other possibilities in the following years, can you? I really think we are limited to 40 years following 1967 too. Counting Palm Sunday as day #1, from there to Av 10, when the temple burned in 70 AD, was 40 years plus another 120 days. In our days, from Iyar 28 (June 7, 1967), when the temple area again belonged to Israel, to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) is 40 years plus another 120 days. That seems like something God would plan. It's the same way with the Oslo Accords being signed on Sept. 13, 1993. That plus 7 good years and 7 bad years, as when Joseph was in Egypt, is Sept. 13, 2007. The Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel 3 days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. Adding 7 good and 7 bad years = Tishri 1, 5768, which just happens to be Sept. 13, 2007. That too seems like something God would plan. Agape

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Scientists examining the layer of sediment corresponding to the die-offs discovered concentrations of the sturdy, soccer-ball-shaped carbon molecules, buckminsterfullerenes, or buckyballs. Within the buckyballs was a mix of helium and argon gases similar to that found in certain stars but unlike anything that could form naturally on Earth. A few inches below and above the extinction layer, they found very few buckyballs.

The researchers say the gases and buckyballs were formed billions of years ago in an ancient star, blown into interstellar space and later carried to Earth aboard the killer meteor. Incoming email From: CAPS
Marilyn, I am forwarding this to you. Some of the "sarcasm" is not meant for you, but for a person that likes to assume the position of a thorn in my side and hound me when I do some independent research. Let me know what you think.

Re: THE RAPTURE--WHEN--PART 4 THE SABBATH

Here are several indisputable reasons why the phrase "the morrow after the SABBATH" means the day after the WEEKLY Sabbath and not the day after the first High Holy Day of Unleavened Bread. The most obvious reason is that Moses could have EASILY said that the count was to start "after the 'first holy convocation' during Unleavened Bread"--BUT HE DIDN'T DID HE !! Also there is NO BIBLICAL AUTHORITY TO POSTPONE THE COUNT IF THE FIRST DAY OF THE OMER COUNT WAS TO START ON THE SABBATH. YOU WOULD NO LONGER HAVE 50 DAYS COUNTED THAT WAY, BUT 51 "FROM THE MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH." The only way to fulfill the instructions is to START THE COUNT AFTER THE WEEKLY SABBATH WHICH IN GOD'S WISDOM ALWAYS LEAVES OUT STARTING THE COUNT ON A SABBATH. GOD'S WAY--SIMPLE. THOSE WHO MIS-INTERPRET--CONFUSION.

1) The entire chapter of Leviticus 23 uses Hebrew words that are separate and distinct from one another. There is one word used for SABBATH--Strongs # 07676. It is used 108 times in the Old Testament. It is translated 107 times as meaning the weekly Sabbath. IT IS NEVER TRANSLATED TO MEAN THE ordinal number "7" or "seventh."

2) In this same chapter of Leviticus 23 the Hebrew word for "seventh" is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT word. It is Strong's # 07637. This word is used 98 times in the Old Testament. IT IS NEVER TRANSLATED AS "SABBATH"--REPEAT, NEVER. It is translated "seventh" 96 times, "seven" 1 time, and "seventh time" 1 time.

3) Both words are used in this critical verse: LEVITICUS 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Here both words are used. It really is simple. God is NOT the author of confusion. The word for weekly Sabbath is the word "sabbath(s)" and the word for seven is simply "seven". God did NOT inspire Moses to record "SEVEN SEVEN'S SHALL BE COMPLETE" . He said and meant "seven sabbaths(meaning in Hebrew given above means weekly Sabbath) shall be COMPLETE."

THE ONLY WAY seven Sabbaths could be COMPLETE--meaning a complete WEEK of 7 days ending with the Sabbath---that is starting with Sunday and ending with the Sabbath--is to START THE COUNT ON A SUNDAY. To those who have questioned this, I ask you the question ," You do know , don't you, that God's week starts on Sunday and Ends on the Sabbath ?"

If the count started on a weekday, as some have wrongly speculated, then there would not be SEVEN COMPLETE WEEKS OF 7 DAYS EACH, STARTING WITH SUNDAY AND ENDING WITH THE SABBATH. Yet the scripture is EXPLICIT. IT SAYS "SEVEN SABBATHS (MEANING A WEEK OF GOD'S MEASUREMENT FROM SUNDAY TO THE SABBATH) SHALL BE COMPLETE." It does not say count seven weeks of seven sevens . That should be clear. I think it is clear to most of the readers, but there are some who like to be contentious and hold to the traditions of men instead of the scripture.

Fraudulent arguments about the number of days in a month HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CORRECT COUNT. The count is based on simply counting 7 comlete Sabbath weeks and going to the next day which would always be a Sunday. The number of days in the month has NO EFFECT ON counting the number of days . To be overly simple and in order to put to rest the machinations of those who seek to find fault, let me show how to count a weekly Sabbath cycle.
Sunday 1
Monday 2, Tuesday 3, Wed. 4, Thurs.5, Friday 6, and Saturday the Sabbath 7.
This weekly cycle has been in effect since Adam. Do not let the surmisings of somebody deceive you into thinking that it is complicated to count 7 Sabbath weeks and then add one more day to get Sunday. The number of days in the "Jewish " months has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS COUNT.

In conclusion, why is this important ? Because in 33 A.D. the disciples were GATHERED TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE ON A CERTAIN DAY---PENTECOST. What if they were gathered on the WRONG DAY ? It may not seem important to modern day people, but the Day of Pentecost could very well be the Day of the Rapture and the "Baptism of Fire." I for one want to know and observe the correct day. In God's wisdom, the counting of the 7 COMPLETE SABBATH WEEKS , IS BASED ON THE WEEKLY CYCLE,NOT THE MONTHLY CLCLE. HE WANTED US, THE CHURCH , TO BE SURE OF THE RIGHT DAY.

God willing, I will address what day Pentecost will be on this year. It is quite unique because the Passover of Nisan 14 is on the weekly Sabbath. The question of which Sabbath(as in the 7th day of the week as used by Moses) comes into question because the day "after the Sabbath"(Hebrew word means weekly Sabbath) could be interpreted by some as the Sunday after the 14th of Nisan or the following Sunday after the next weekly sabbath. I will address that subject next. To the Pure , all things are pure .

My reply

Scripture is God breathed. Moses had no choice in the matter. God put a little bit here and a little bit there so the ungodly will fall backward and be taken. Isa. 28:10 says, "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

We need the Holy Spirit to help us find the hidden clues and put them together to get the big picture. Prov. 2:3-5 says, "Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God."

> > The only way to fulfill the instructions is to START THE COUNT AFTER THE WEEKLY SABBATH WHICH IN GOD'S WISDOM ALWAYS LEAVES OUT STARTING THE COUNT ON A SABBATH. GOD'S WAY--SIMPLE. THOSE WHO MIS-INTERPRET--CONFUSION.

Using the calendar for this year, the Jewish 5761 (2000/2001), Nisan 16 (Resurrection Day) falls on Monday. Following what I think you are saying, we would have to wait until the following Sabbath to begin the countdown of the 50 days to Pentecost. The next Sabbath is Nisan 21. Counting 7 weeks FROM Nisan 21, the 1st Sabbath would be Nisan 28, the 2nd Sabbath on Iyar 5, the 3rd Sabbath on Iyar 12, the 4th Sabbath on Iyar 19, the 5th Sabbath on Iyar 26, the 6th Sabbath on Sivan 4, the 7th Sabbath on Sivan 11. The next day, Sunday, would then put Pentecost on Sivan 12. Since the Jews keep Pentecost on Sivan 6 and 7, does Sivan 12 make sense? or does counting the 50 days from Resurrection Day make more sense? This way the 50th day would be Tuesday, Sivan 7 (May 29, 2001). Counting by Jewish inclusive reckoning would put Pentecost on Sivan 6 (May 28, 2001), the beginning of the 2300-day (Dan. 8:13,14) countdown from the beginning of the Tribulation to the beginning of the Millennium on the Day of God's Wrath.

Lev. 23:15 says, "ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete."

Using your way of counting the 50 days, since the morrow after the sabbath in 2001 would be Nisan 22, Sunday, Nisan 22 would have to be "the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering" on the Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40), not Nisan 13 until Nisan 22. Are you sure that is the right way to count it?

To me, since it says to count from the "the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering," the Feast of Unleavened Bread would be the sabbath intended and the sheaf of Firstfruits would be the next day. Jesus being 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the Earth requires that Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits be on 3 consecutive days, Nisan 14, 15, and 16.

Josephus agrees, and he was a Pharisee priest. He said, "on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them...they offer the first-fruits of their barley....When a week of weeks has passed over after this sacrifice, (which weeks contain forty and nine days,) of the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost...they bring to God a loaf, made of wheat flour" (Ant. III. X. 5,6).

The "morrow after the sabbath" has to be the same day that they "brought the sheaf of the wave offering." Since Firstfruits is not always on Sunday, the previous day was not always on Saturday, but it always was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Therefore, to me, the sabbath in Lev. 23:15 is the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

All feast days are holy convocations, days of rest, sabbaths. In Lev. 23:32 the Day of Atonement is Tishri 10, and "It shall be unto you a SABBATH OF REST." Five days later, on Tishri 15, "on the first day (Tishri 15) shall be a SABBATH, and on the eighth day (Tishri 23) shall be a SABBATH" (Lev. 23:39). These are not all spaced 7 days apart. Therefore they cannot all fall on Saturday. They are sabbaths because they are feast days, holy convocations, not because they fall on Saturday.

> > IT SAYS "SEVEN SABBATHS (MEANING A WEEK OF GOD'S MEASUREMENT FROM SUNDAY TO THE SABBATH) SHALL BE COMPLETE." It does not say count seven weeks of seven sevens.

In Lev. 23:15,16, from Firstfruits, when they "brought the sheaf of the wave-offering" on "the morrow after the sabbath" (Unleavened Bread), there were to be "seven sabbaths" or 49 days plus one more day, which was Pentecost.

Lev. 25:8 says, "thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years." The Bible interprets the Bible. Seven sabbaths equals seven sevens, or 49, whether they are days or years. The Bible is consistent. Therefore, sabbath can indicate seven, probably because it is the 7th day.

I take "seven sabbaths" in Lev. 23:15 to be 49 days (7 x 7 = 49). That makes sense for v. 16 mentions that the next day is the 50th day.

> > The count is based on simply counting 7 comlete Sabbath weeks and going to the next day which would always be a Sunday.

In 30 AD, Resurrection Day was on Sunday. Adding 7 weeks brings us to the 7th Sunday. The next day was the 50th day, when "the day of Pentecost was fully come" (Acts 2:1). It fell on Monday. I thought the Lord's day in Rev. 1:10 was Sunday until I figured out that Pentecost fell on Monday in 30 AD. I had to change my view in that respect. I want to know exactly what Scripture indicates. I have to adjust my view according to what I see in Scripture.

> > the Day of Pentecost could very well be the Day of the Rapture and the "Baptism of Fire." I for one want to know and observe the correct day.

Me too. I offer the above as food for thought. I know that you really want to understand Scripture correctly, just like I do. You study lots to that end too. Please let me know what you think about this. Agape

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2-21-01 - SERGIYEV POSAD, Moscow Region — The lights in the hall of the Moscow Theological Academy went off and a frail 90-year-old starets, one of the Russian Orthodox Church's most authoritative spiritual leaders, appeared on a giant video screen.

Speaking from his monastery cell in northwestern Russia, he tried to help bishops, monks and theology professors decide how to handle an unlikely problem plaguing the church: a mass refusal by church members to accept the government-issued tax identification numbers, or INN, because they see them as the sign of the Antichrist.

Archimadrite Ioann Krestyankin said it was threatening to undermine the church...As sad as it was to many participants, Krestyankin was not exaggerating the problem.

Speakers at the session of the Theological Commission, which is an advisory body to the church's Synod, said the Moscow Patriarchate, Tax Ministry, State Duma and the presidential administration are flooded with petitions protesting the issue of tax IDs. They warn that Patriarch Alexy II and the Holy Synod will be deemed traitors of Orthodoxy if they give their blessing to Russians to accept the "number of the beast." A volume containing 9,000 signatures gathered in the Ivanovo region alone was presented at the conference Monday....

Even at the Holy Trinity-St. Sergius Monastery — Russia's largest, on whose grounds the Theological Academy is located — a significant number of monks have threatened to leave the monastery if the church leadership accepts INN. "The Holy Scriptures are the highest authority for us," a monk who refused to give his name said Monday. "We have a full right and obligation to disobey the hierarchy if it detracts from Orthodoxy."...

The theory runs as follows: Antichrist will come in the form of global computerized control of individuals, who will have computer chips implanted in their hands. Tax IDs, which "replace" the name given at baptism with a number, are the first step toward such a satanic goal....

"People are not speaking against the tax number," one of the anti-INN movement leaders, Konstantin Gordeyev, said Monday at the conference. "They are simply afraid that having made one step [accepting INN], they will be gradually involved in this global information mechanism, and they will not be able to stop."

The hierarchy has found itself completely unable to deal with the problem. "It has spread so fast, we were taken off guard by it," one prominent bishop, who has strong opposition to INN in his diocese, said in a private conversation at the conference Monday....

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Skeletons 8 foot in height and having six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot( 2 Samuel 21:20 & 1 Chronicles 20:6) were discovered in New Zealand. They were of Indo-European ethnic origin and had red, brown, and blond hair. Could these also be the giants like Goliath mentioned in the Bible, who were the children of the fallen angels who mated with woman on Earth and lived on Earth before the time of Noah's flood? The continents were not divided until Peleg was born to Eber (Genesis 10:25) in 1755 which was 901 years after the flood in 1656.

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It concerns me that there are such differences in the translations, and I have asked God to know his Word as it was intended for us to know.

Again, thank you for all your hard work. I look forward everyday to checking to see if another P/C is posted. I have continued to print them out for study, and now all of my friends check daily as well. You have been a blessing beyond what you will ever know. Most of what is discussed via email is not covered in most churches. Agape

My reply

To me, the Septuagint (LXX) is one I'd hate to be without. Here is a URL where you can look up scriptures in several different versions. I put it on my favorites list. http://www.stg.brown.edu/webs/bible_browser/pbform.shtml I don't know anything about the Lamsa Bible except what it tells in the Introduction. I didn't know it existed until I found it in a used book store. As for the Peshitta, I'm no authority on that. It is old, which is one thing in its favor.

I don't worry too much when the versions differ. To me, it is a wonder they don't differ more than they do. Think of how many people had to copy the MSS by hand. Usually the differences are because the translators used different words to try to convey the meaning of the original. When they found the complete book of Isaiah in the Qumran caves, there was only one place that was very different. In Isa. 53:9, it should say that he made his grave with the rich, and with the wicked in his death. That is reversed in the KJV. Otherwise, it proved that our KJV is very reliable. I love to get hold of a different version. I always learn something I didn't see before, just because the translators chose different words. Something will just pop out in one version that is rather obscure in another.

> > know of any Hebrew to english translation that would give me the phonics

No. I have been to busy reading the English translations to worry about really learning Hebrew. I figured that it would take more time than I've got. I have to use translations, concordances and lexicons.

> > the phonics? Strong's gives it, but I have to go back and forth on every word

Maybe you could make Xerox copies of that page to keep with you as you read. Agape

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Marilyn, in Leviticus 23, you are correct about the word 'Sabbath' being used of the Feasts of Trumpets, Atonement , and on the first and eigth day of Tabernacles. However, this word for 'Sabbath ' is NOT USED in the description of the 1st and 7th days of Unleavenend Bread. I would say it is conspicuos by its abscense. Instead, in Lev.23:7-8, the 1st and 7th days are called 'holy convocations'--Hebrew word for 'mikra'. Since the instructions for the Feast of Firstfruits and Pentecost IMMEDIATELY follow, and the term is used the "morrow after the Sabbath," it appears the divine scriptures are sending a clear message re which Sabbath is intended--the weekly one. If the scriptures had just described the 1st day of U.B. as a "sabbath of rest,' then the intent would have been to indicate that particular day as the 'sabbath' in question. However, the inspired (each word) scripture DID NOT USE THE PHRASE OF THE 'SABBATH OF REST' IN describing the first day of Unleavened Bread. Think about that. Best regards

My reply

Passover. John 19:31 says, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day (Passover), (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

Feast of Unleavened Bread. Lev. 23:6-8 says, "the fourteenth day of the first month (Nisan) at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation (mikraw kodesh, an assembly called out, a rehearsal): ye shall do no servile work therein." No work means it is a sabbath of rest.

Trumpets. Lev. 23:24,25 says, "In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath (shabbathown, intensively, a great sabbath, a solemn sabbath; Gesenius, p. 804), , a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein."

Day of Atonement. A "shabbathown" is a great "shabbath." For instance, the Day of Atonement is both a "shabbathown" and a "shabbath." Lev. 16:29-31 says, "this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all...For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. It shall be a sabbath (shabbathown, intensively, a great sabbath, a solemn sabbath) of rest unto you."

Lev. 23:32 says, "It shall be unto you a sabbath (shabbath, intermission) of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath (shabbath, intermission)."

Tabernacles. Lev. 23:39 says of the 1st and 8th days of Tabernacles, "in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath (shabbathown, intensively, a great sabbath, a solemn sabbath), and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath (shabbathown, intensively, a great sabbath, a solemn sabbath)."

Pentecost. Lev. 23:10,11, 15-17 says, "When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest (on the Feast of Firstfruits, Nisan 16): And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath (on Nisan 16, day after the Feast of Unleavened Bread of Nisan 15) the priest shall wave it....And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath (from Nisan 16), from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering (Firstfruits on Nisan 16); seven sabbaths (7 weeks, 49 days) shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days (Pentecost); and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. Ye shall bring out of your habitations (the Pre-Trib Rapture) two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD."

On the Feast of Firstfruits, Christ, the Firstfruit, was resurrected. Fifty days later, on Pentecost, I expect the Bride of Christ, part of the Body of Christ, to be brought out of their habitations as "the firstfruits unto the LORD." I still think that the 50 days are counted "from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave-offering," and that it was the morrow after the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

See what you think after you read the above, and let me know. One thing, even if the 50 days are counted different than I think, we are both in the ballpark. I don't think one week is going to seem like a long time, either. Agape

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On 5doves site, you said,
> > I would conclude that the two witnesses prophesy and die during the latter part of the Tribulation period or the last 1260 days

Since the 2 witnesses prophesy 1260 days (Rev. 11:3), and the Great Tribulation, the last half of the Tribulation, gets shortened (Mt. 24:21,22), Moses and Elijah prophesy during the first half of the Tribulation.

We can figure out how long the Great Tribulation will be. Daniel 8:13,14 shows us that the first half, when the Jews can sacrifice, plus the time when they can't sacrifice because the False Prophet desecrates the temple, is 2300 days. 2300 - 1260 = 1040 days for the Great Tribulation. Agape

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