Posted 7-31-01
Note: Great. That leaves me out on this one.
I suggest everyone do the same! NEVER OPEN AN ATTACHMENT!!!...
Another suggestion is to go into your email program. Setup a rule that if a message comes in with an attachment... it will be deleted. Better to be safe than sorry!
I'm sort of confused by your response. I Cor. 15:51,52 says: Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed, 52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE shall be changed.
From my understanding of this passage of scripture..Paul apparently thought the rapture was to happen in his day. Paul included himself with those christians who would be alive at the coming of the Lord by saying "WE shall not all sleep, WE shall all be changed"
Apparently Paul wasn't the only Apostle who thought Jesus's return was within their life time:
Mt:16:28: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
If this is the case{Paul including himself with the Corinthians/all living Christians at the time of the Lord's return}..then I must disagree with you when you stated "I Cor. 15:51,52 is talking about the 2nd Rapture". Why? Ok, here is my reasoning.
1. Paul was one of the greatest apostles/teachers/person/ servants that ever lived. If anyone was going to be included in the 1st rapture, it will definitely be him. Another words..there is no way Paul is going to miss the 1st rapture and be left behind.
2.There is nothing in I Cor. 15:51,52 that suggests this is for "foolish virgins/apostate/luke warm christians". On the contrary..verse 57 and 58 proves this rapture is for those christians who are "beloved of the Lord"
57: But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58: Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
I believe verse 57 and 58 pretty much sums it up.
Thats right..their labour in the Lord will not be in vain because their reward{along with Paul} will be the spectacular event known as the Mystery/catching away/rapture
3.I know you are going to say the "last trump" mentioned in I Cor. 15:51,52 definitely pertains to 2nd/prewrath rapture." Marilyn you base your entire theory on the words "last trump" to conclude that this is the prewrath rapture that Paul is talking about. But what you have failed to realize is the beautiful/simple/uplifting/rewarding message that Paul is conveying to those "beloved brethren"{doesn't sound like foolish virgins to me} that will experience the rapture along with Paul at the Lord's coming. Honestly Marilyn, if you reread 1 Cor. 15:51-58 in its entire context{try not to focus on just 1 word} you will see that this is a message of love/reward....for the over comers in Christ...not a message of warning/slowfulness/lukewarm/apostate/foolish virgins/Daniels 70th week christians.
4. There are no such things as 2 raptures for the Church/Body of Christ. Paul never taught such a thing in his epistles. Paul's teachings were about oneness...Rom:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Eph:4:5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism, ONE RAPTURE{addition mine}
Observe how Paul greets the Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the CHURCH of God which is at Corinth, to them that are SANCTIFIED in
Christ Jesus, called to be SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ."
Observe how Paul greets the Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the CHURCH of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Notice the similarities? Paul greeted all the Churches of God the same way. Why? Because in Christ there is but ONE CHURCH...something that Paul reminds us of often. So then if there is but one church, one must conclude then there can only be but one rapture/resurrection for that church...right? There is no differentiation between the Thessalonians nor the Corinthians..same rapture applies to both/entire church.
These Corinthians sure don't sound like "foolish virgins/ slowful servants/lukewarm/apostate christians to me....something they would have to be in order to miss the 1st rapture..right? I mean if Paul greets the Corinthian Church in such an honorable manner, doesn't logic demand that Paul wrote this entire epistle to a bunch of christians that will indeed be rewarded one day by Jesus who will take them away before the horror of Daniel's 70th week commences? Isn't that what Paul explained to them in chapter 15 :51-52?
My definition of the Church/Body of Christ.
Anyone who has been baptized into the Body of Christ {1Cor:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body} by the Holy Spirit starting with the 120 on the day of Pentecost..and ending at the1st{if you will} rapture of the Church. Anyone left behind after the the rapture of the Church{foolish virgins} can no longer be classified as the "Church/Body of Christ"..hence...only he who now hinders will hinder until he is taking out of the way. The same unusual/unique/unprecedented way the HolySpirit was sent on the day of Pentecost and indwelt/filled/possesed/incased believers will be the same unusual/ unique/unprecedented way it will be taking out of the way WITH those same believers it filled.. known as the resurrection/ rapture. So then, anyone
left behind after the "taking out of the way" of the indwelt Spirit filled believers CANNOT be classified as the Church/ Body of Christ, for if they were,they would have been taken along with the rest of the Church/Body.
So then what would I call those who've been left behind?
Well my answer would be what the book of Daniel and the book of revelation {after chapter 4:1} calls them. We know from the book of the revelation that these believers are classified as a "different" group of believers/people. How? The book of revelation describes them as singing a "new song"...no doubt an attestant to their uniqueness APART from the previously raptured Church/Body of Christ. Besides, not one time does the book of revelation{after 4:1} refer to believers as the "Church/Body of Christ". The book of Daniel does refer to them as saints..but never as the "Church/Body of Christ." Truly the Church/Body of Christ is a great mystery..even unto this very day!
I've heard you state numerous times in various pros and cons how the foolish/slowful/lukewarm/ Laodicean christians will miss the 1st rapture and enter Daniel's 70th week and then possibly experience the 2nd/ prewrath rapture.
I have a few questions.
What happens if a luke warm/foolish virgin-no oil/slowful servant/Laodicean "christian" physically dies right now before the 1st and 2nd resurrection/rapture takes place? Another words, if a person dies{people die everyday} in a luke warm/foolish virgin-no oil/not ready state:
1. Will they be resurrected in the 1st rapture? 2. Will they be resurrected in the 2nd /prewrath rapture? 3.Will they go to hell because they died in a luke warm/foolish virgin-no oil/not ready state? 4.If the answer to number 3 is yes, why then would they be counted worthy enough to make the 1st/2nd rapture if they were alive?
There are two groups in the first Rapture. Those asleep in Jesus are resurrected having an incorruptible body that won't decay. The living ones that are caught up may receive an incorruptible body at that point too. Whatever that may be, it seems that neither group will yet actually have immortality. We only have the promise of having it. At the second Rapture, we ALL, wise virgins AND foolish virgins, are called to the general assembly in Heaven and will be CHANGED, be made immortal at the last trump. I Thess. 4:16,17 does not mention our being changed. That is coming at the last trump.
Mark 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." Those caught up in the first Rapture are already in Heaven.
Those that have died and been resurrected have already become incorruptible. I Cor. 15:35,42,44 says, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body to they come?...It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION... It is sown a natural body; it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY." Resurrected men will lose their sin nature that they inherited from Adam. In the New Testament, the first "trump of God" is in I Thess. 4:16. The "last trump" is in I Cor. 15:51. The Old Testament also has two trumps.
Isa. 18:3-6 is the first trump of God sounded at the first Rapture. It says, "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign (flag) on the mountains (nations, i.e., the OWG or UN); and WHEN HE BLOWETH A TRUMPET, hear ye. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider (nabat, see) in my dwelling place (in Heaven) like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest (the first Rapture). For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs (with no fruit) with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches. THEY SHALL BE LEFT (as the foolish Laodicean virgins are left) together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts (Beast and False Prophet) of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them." They are pruned in the spring.
Zech. 9:14,15 is the last trump of God, sounded on the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It says, "the LORD shall be seen over them (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and his arrow (the Sword of the Lord, Jer. 12:12, the flaming sword, Gen. 3:24, the asteroid, Rev. 8:8,10) shall go forth as the lightning: and THE LORD GOD SHALL BLOW THE TRUMPET, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. The LORD of hosts shall defend them."
Those that "shall be left" the first time will be caught up the 2nd time. That will be as the days of Lot, when fire fell that same day (Luke 17:29). No fire will fall at the first Rapture. It is as the days of Noah.
The prototype is in Nu. 10:2-4. It says, "Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with THEM (both, i.e., at the last trump), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles), shall gather themselves unto thee." The wise Philadelphian virgins are caught up with the 24 elders. They are our Representatives in the government of God.
There is a reason that it refers to both trumpets sounding at the last trump. One is to call to the assembly those in Heaven. The other is for the journeying (Rapture) of the Tribulation saints.
> > If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written as if his coming at the Pre-Trib Rapture is at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10).
> > verse 57 and 58 proves this rapture is for those christians who are "beloved of the Lord"
Jesus told the Laodiceans, "As many as I LOVE, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (Rev. 3:19).
> > We know from the book of the revelation that these believers are classified as a "different" group of believers/ people. How? The book of revelation describes them as singing a "new song"...no doubt an attestant to their uniqueness APART from the previously raptured Church/Body of Christ.
The Bride, caught up with John and the other 23 elders in Rev. 4:1, sing the "new song" in Rev. 5:9. The only others that are to be added to the Bride group at the 2nd Rapture are the 144,000 Israelites. Rev. 14:1-5 says, "a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
> > Another words, if a person dies{people die
everyday} in a luke warm/foolish virgin-no oil/not ready state :
1. Will they be resurrected in the 1st rapture?
2. Will they be resurrected in the 2nd /prewrath rapture?
3.Will they go to hell because they died in a luke warm/foolish virgin-no oil/not ready state?
4.If the answer to number 3 is yes, why then would they be counted worthy enough to make the1st/2nd rapture if they were alive?
I don't think we are told, but it seems that they would be raised in the 2nd Rapture. They will not go to hell. Their belief in Christ is their ticket to Heaven. I Cor. 3:11-15 says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Agape
Also there is a letter ( 27. July) that says that 29.th July the 3rd Temple cornerstone would finally be placed on site.
Interesting? Agape
> > If Vendyl Jones and the rabbis are correct, whether starting the count in 1947, 1948 or 1950, IN ALL CASES the first Sabbatical year following would be 1952 and the SEVENTH would be 2001! In answering Jim, I said,
"Martin Anstey found an eighty-two year mistake in the era of the Persian Kings. BC 536 - 82 = BC 454. 483 yrs (Dan. 9:25) - BC 454 + 1 (no zero year) = 30 AD (Jewish 3790), the Crucifixion. 3790 was not a Sabbatic Year, but 3787 (27 AD), the 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry, was a Sabbatic Year. Even Jesus' birth in BC 5 was not a Sabbatic Year. It seems that the 70 weeks (shabua) were not necessarily Sabbatic Years in their first fulfillment (of 69). That doesn't mean that they couldn't be in a second fulfillment though, but we do need to consider how Dan. 9:25 was fulfilled the first and primary time. We are getting close, however we figure it.
Let's just think this through again, pro and con. The Jewish years 3790 (29/30 AD), 3791 (30/31 AD), 3792 (31/32 AD) and 3793 (32/33 AD) were not Sabbatic. 3794 (33/34 AD) was Sabbatic. 3790 - 483 = 3307, which was not Sabbatic, either. Since that fulfillment of the 49 years of Dan. 9:25 was not hooked to Sabbatic Years, I can't see a good reason in that for using Sabbatic Years with the 49 years now.
However, the year I picked for the Second Advent is Sabbatic--5768 (2007/2008), and there is a good reason for it to be a Sabbatic Year. The millennial Day of the Lord is called a rest, "sabbatismos," in Heb. 4:9. It is the 7th millennium since Adam was cast out of Eden. It seems likely that it would start at the beginning of the Jewish Civil Year. I think it will start Tishri 1, 5768, a Sabbatic Year. To me, this also makes sense since I think this kosmos began Saturday Tishri 1, when God rested after creating Adam. If the Second Advent will be in 5768, 49 years before that would be 5720 (1958/1959).
Jim said,
> > Newton believed the above verse contains the timing (but not necessarily "the day or hour") of BOTH the first and second coming of the Lord. Most conservative scholars acknowledge that the verse pinpointed the year of the Lord's first coming, by adding the seven weeks (49 years) and 62 weeks (434 years) to get 483 years, which they count to His passion week.
> > But Newton believed that the 62 weeks (434 years) separately applied to His first coming (His birth, and using different dating for the decree) and the seven weeks (or 49 years) to His second coming, both being counted, as it says, "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem."...
> > However, a recheck of Newton's book on the prophecies of Daniel reveals that he was speaking specifically of SEVEN SABBATICAL YEARS, not just 7 X 7 = 49 years, from "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem."
Why would the 49 years be figured backward from the Rapture instead of from the Second Advent? In Dan. 9:25, the 7 weeks of years plus the 62 weeks of years were to be counted to the First Advent, when Messiah the Prince, Jesus, was "karath," killed. If there is to be a similar fulfillment in our days, I think the 49 years would be figured backward from the Second Advent.
Let's think of this in a different way. In the Modern Parallels, the 7blocks of years that God put in Scripture are:
(1) 5278 plus 400 equals 5678 (1917/18) (a 7/8)
In 5678 (1917/18), the modern exodus began
(2) 5278 plus 430 equals 5708 (1947/48) (a 7/8)
In 5708 (1947/48), Israel declared her Independence
(3) 5278 plus 450 equals 5728 (1967/68) (a 7/8)
In 5728 (1967/68), the Six-Day War, Sign of the End of the Age, had already been won. Temple area was retaken June 10, 1967 (Iyar 28, 5727).
(4) 5278 plus 480 equals 5758 (1997/98) (a 7/8)
In 5758 (1997/98), 6000th year of man's test being mortal and knowing good and evil, living stones given "SPACE TO REPENT"? Wye Memorandum peace treaty signed 10-23-98 (when Saturn was closest and brightest in 20 years) to strengthen Oslo Accords signed 9-13-93
(5) 5278 plus 483 equals 5761 (2000/01)
In 5761 (2000/01), I hope the Pre-Trib Rapture will take place.
(6) 5278 plus 490 equals 5768 (2007/08) (a 7/8)
In 5768 (2007/08), Probable day of Pre-Wrath Rapture, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) just barely preceding God's Wrath. I believe Christ will return 7 months later (Eze. 39:12,13) on the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year (Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3).
I think the year 5761 (2000/2001), is already marked, whether the 49 years would apply or not. Agape
Note: They were not allowed to take the cornerstone on the temple grounds.
I haven't written in a very long while, since long ago, when I was hosting your earliest ProCons on my website when you'd run out of space. Every time I log on (at least every other day), I see those old logos that I sent you for your site and think that, had I know the Lord would tarry so long, I'd have helped you 'spruce up' the Prophecy Corner a bit more. ;-) But, it has served you very well, God be praised!
Anyway, in recent ProCons I have noticed references to the Sabbatical Years. Repeatedly, it's been said that the first was in 1952, and the seventh in 2001, and that you can tell a Sabbatical Year by dividing the hebrew year by 7. But, I don't understand the following:
1st - 1952
2nd - 1959
3rd - 1966
4th - 1973
5th - 1980
6th - 1987
7th - 1994
8th - 2001
Isn't that correct? Did we skip one for some reason? Is there a Leap Sabbatical Year, or what?
Thanks, and I pray for God's continued mercies and strength with regard to your health, and Ed's, in Jesus name.
There is no Leap Sabbatical Year. You are counting by Jewish inclusive reckoning. If we count without using it, the list would be numbers 1 through 7.
We would say, 1952 + 49 = 2001, or
1952 + 7 = 1959
1959 + 7 = 1966
1966 + 7 = 1973
1973 + 7 = 1980
1980 + 7 = 1987
1987 + 7 = 1994
1994 + 7 = 2001
It seems that only blocks of time that are set apart are counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning. Running time can't be counted that way or, as someone told me earlier, each week would be shorter by one day.
We sure appreciate your prayers in our behalf. Right now, we are ok, but both holding water since we came off of the clinical trials for blood pressure medicine. We have appointments next week with our regular doctors. Ed doesn't feel much like exercising, and they didn't want him to at Cardiac Rehab. They sent us home. His weight was up. His blood pressure was up. He was tired. They were afraid a little of this and a little of that would add up. It is hard for him to get up out of his recliner and out of the car. That last TIA (little stroke) didn't do him any good. We both need to get back on what we were taking for high blood pressure before we got in the clinical trials now that they are over. Agape
I believe, because of those verses, that the body of believers literally is the "temple of God" (1 Cor 3:16-17, 1 Cor 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, Eph 2:21). I don't think Paul is simply making a comparison, but making a point.
There is more going on in those verse than just a teaching to make us say "Oh, I better not have that cigarrette, cause my body is *a* temple". Those verses teach that the body of believers as a plurality is "the" temple. The bricks have been replaced with people. In those verses, the "you" is *always* plural, and "the temple" is *always* singular. The verses do not teach that we are each "a" temple, but that all together we are "the" temple. God will no longer dwell in temples made with hands (Acts 17:23), and ever since the veil was rent in twain in the old stone temple (Mark 15:38) the old way has been made obsolete (Heb 8:13) replaced with a new and living way (Heb 10:19-22). We are told that *Christ himself* will build the temple (Zec 6:12-13) from which he will reign as priest and king (which numerous verses say he already is) and that people will come into it (which happens every time someone accepts salvation). It has already happened, although I believe it will still reach its fullest culmination at his return.
All the talk of future stone temples (which may be possible but will never be a temple "of God" but rather a temple of men) although interesting to some, misses the bigger truth. The ultimate temple is already here. We are in it and part of it. We already have a corner stone in place (Eph 2:20), the temple is growing (Eph 2:21), and it is God's habitation (Eph 2:22). Jews may place a granite corner stone, but only because they'll still be stumbling over the real one (1 Pet 2:8).
Anyone interested in studying the "temple" throughout scripture needs to seriously consider these passages and realize the implications of what is taught in them.
Bricks (man made) were in the Tower of Babel. Large stones (God made) were in the temple of the LORD.
Believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit in this age. There are three 2000-year ages, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews and the Age of the Church. After these run their course, the Kingdom of Christ will run for 1000 years. Within this framework are 6 Dispensations, the Dispensation of Innocence being before the beginning of the Age of the Gentiles. In each Dispensation, God gives mankind instructions to test him under different conditions. Will we obey God or not? The instructions and conditions vary in each Dispensation. During the Dispensation of Law, there was a literal temple. During the Dispensation of Grace, believers are the temple in which he dwells.
Each age will end with a time of testing. The ends of the 3 ages will run concurrently during the 70th week of Daniel/ Tribulation. I Cor. 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS (plural) of the world (aionos, ages) are come."
Right now, while there is no stone and timber temple, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, the place where he dwells on Earth. Eph. 2:19-22 explains: "ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom YE ALSO ARE BUILDED TOGETHER FOR AN HABITATION OF GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT." We are the spiritual temple when there isn't a literal one on Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem that is his dwelling place.
We are not the medium by which the LORD will sit on his throne in the Millennium. Zech. 6:12-15 is talking about a stone and timber temple. It says, "Behold the man (Jesus) whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall SIT AND RULE UPON HIS THRONE; AND HE SHALL BE A PRIEST UPON HIS THRONE: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both....And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD." There will be a millennial Temple in Jerusalem.
> > Jews may place a granite corner stone
It's marble. Agape
Pro and Con 786 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net
8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110
© 1996-2001, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 7-31-01