Posted 9-2-01
I have been reading the HRV. When I got to John 11:1f, the similarities of timing between Christ's healing Lazarus and the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 hit me. What are years in the parable are days in John 11, but the spacing is similar. Lazarus' resurrection was in the 4th day. Maybe the resurrection at the Rapture is in the 4th year.
In Luke 13:7-9 Christ said, "Behold, THREE YEARS I HAVE COME and looked for fruit on this fig tree (Israel) and I have not found. Cut it down. Why should the ground be wasted? The laborer said to him, My master, LEAVE IT EVEN THIS YEAR until I work it and fertilize it. Perhaps it will produce fruit, but if not, NEXT YEAR you may cut it down." Four years are involved.
In John 11:6, we find that El'azar (Lazarus) was sick and that Jesus "remained in the place that he was TWO DAYS. And AFTERWARD (i.e., on the 3rd day) he said to his talmidim, Come, LET US GO AGAIN to Y'hudah." The delay was deliberate, so it is probably significant. When they arrived Lazarus had "been in the sepulcher for FOUR DAYS." Christ started his trip on the 3rd day and arrived on the 4th day. Only on the 4th day was Lazarus, whom Jesus loved, raised from the dead by the Lord.
If the correlation fits our days, it might fit 5758, 5759, 5760 and 5761 (1997/1998 to 2000/2001). The Jewish 5758 was so definitely marked in the Modern Parallels. It was the 480th year (I Kings 6:1) since Martin Luther tacked his 95 theses to the Catholic Church Door in Wittenberg, Germany, in 1517, thus exposing her errors. That stand for justification by faith, not works, started the Protestant Reformation. Also, the Ottoman Turks took over Jerusalem in the Jewish 5278 (1517 AD).
As suggested by Christ when he raised Lazarus (meaning whom God aids) from the dead, only in the 4th year (5761) would there be resurrection from the dead. Resurrection takes place at the Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18). Lazarus is a good type of the Bride of Christ, for Jesus loved him.
Above, I counted the years by Jewish inclusive reckoning. Not using inclusive reckoning, the four years could also apply to 5759, 5760, 5761 and 5762, which starts Sept. 18, 2001. Either way, the Rapture seems close. Agape
In the latest PC you wonder when Saturn becomes an evening star. I checked by Jerusalem view, and Saturn rises (daylight saving time) allready about a couple of minutes before midnight. By sept. 30 it rises allready about 22.00. If we ignore this daylight saving time and go by the "real" winter time, Saturn is rising about 11pm. Of course Saturn is there in the morning too. Agape
We usually have a very hot spell in September. Summer has to have its last fling. However, weather seems to be more unpredictable this year. Lately, we have had some unexpected relief from temperatures over 100. Thank you Lord. It is much appreciated. Agape
***Clad in white robes and standing before the throne in Heaven are the 144,000 Israelites (who sing "as it were a new song" like the 1st group) and "a great multitude whose number no one was able [to count], FROM EVERY NATION AND TRIBE AND PEOPLES AND TONGUES" (Rev. 7:9; HRV). We are told that "They are those who came from great affliction and HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES AND WHITENED THEM IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB" (Rev. 7:14; HRV).
You tell me. How did this great multitude of Tribulation saints get there? ***
I do not agree ( in brotherly love) with your viewpoint of a second rapture to explain how these saints got there.The answer to this question can be found in Rev 6 : 9 -11.
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. "
From these verses it is clear that people were slain during the Tribulation and that they should wait until their fellow bretheren should be killed as they were .The slained believers from Rev 6 received white robes and they had to wait for the others to be killed. During the period between the Rapture and the opening of the 7 th seal people were killed, received white robes and waited for their fellow bretheren that should be killed as they were. Once it was fulfilled they all appeared before the throne as the great multitude of Tribulation saints.They all appeared before the throne after they were killed.
Please help me with the following.
2 Th 2:11-12 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
The way I see it. If a person heard the gospel before the Rapture but didn't believe it , God shall send him strong delusion to believe a lie (the Antichrist) and would then be damned. If I understand this correctly, it wouldn't be possible for a person to be saved during the Tribulation if he rejected Jesus Christ before the Rapture.
Keep up the good work.
That's ok. We do not have to agree, except about Christ being our Saviour. Each must be persuaded in his/her own mind. Discussing pro and cons can help us all to make up our minds. Let's just look at some scriptures and see where they lead.
Of the martyrs, Rev. 6:11 says, "white robes were GIVEN unto every one of them." They have white robes, because they were martyred for their faith, not necessarily because they confessed their sins since accepting Christ.
Those that come out of the Great Tribulation have WASHED their robes in the blood of the Lamb themselves (Rev. 7:14). There are two groups, the 144,000 Israelites and the great multitude that no man can number.
Isa. 66:8 shows that the Israelites will be born in a day, the day God's wrath hits Earth. It says, "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to BRING FORTH IN ONE DAY? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." These children are brand new Christians. Their "old sins" are wiped off the books. They are counted as pure virgins (Rev. 14:4,5). II Peter 1:9 says, "he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS." Rom. 3:25 says, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for THE REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God."
In Rev. 14:4,5, the 144,000 are "virgins" and "firstfruits" "without fault before the throne of God." I don't see anything that would indicate that they died first. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is before the wrath of God hits Earth at noon. Gog's army is attacking Israel that day, so it is possible that they die, but not probable for Christ steps in to save the Jews.
Remember how at Babylon Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego were saved out of the fiery furnace that was heated 7 times hotter than usual? Nebuchadnezzar said, "Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like THE SON OF GOD" (Dan. 3:25). This pre-figures the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They will be saved so as by fire. I Cor. 3:15 says, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet SO AS BY FIRE."
They will be brought out the day the big fiery furnace will be lit at Babylon (Rev. 18:21; 8:10), and the mountain sized stone (Rev. 8:8) will hit the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5). Actually, wildfires will be set by falling burning meteorites on the preceding day. The smoke from those fires will cause the Sun to be black and the Moon blood red (Rev. 6:12,13).
Zeph. 2:3 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger." I don't think Scripture says anything about resurrection for the 144,000 that will be hid in Heaven that day. However, Rev. 20:4 mentions the resurrection of the martyrs.
Eze. 9:4 says, "the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." I think this pictures the sealing of the 144,000, who are ALIVE, not dead.
> > The way I see it . If a person heard the gospel before the Rapture but didn't believe it, God shall send him strong delusion to believe a lie (the Antichrist) and would then be damned. If I understand this correctly, it wouldn't be possible for a person to be saved during the Tribulation if he rejected Jesus Christ before the Rapture.
If that were true, only people who had never heard of Christ could be saved during the Tribulation, yet there is a great multitude saved. I think man has a chance to be saved until he dies. However, God has foreknowledge of who will and who won't be saved. Those who won't be saved, he can use to bring prophecies to pass, just as when he hardened Pharaoh's heart at the time of the Exodus.
Psa. 40:1-3 shows that many will see the Rapture "and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. That is at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. There will be new Christians immediately. There also will be the converts gained by Moses and Elijah. The Jews know of Christ now even if they don't accept Him as their Messiah yet. The nation will be saved in a day. Those that flee Judea Mid-Trib have accepted Christ. Rev. 12:17 says, "the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." These Jews can be saved during the Tribulation, and they have heard of Christ before it started.
The Tribulation is the trial "which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). Why have this trial if most of the people of the world can't be saved anyway?
The 144,000 Israelites of Rev. 7:1-8 are alive on Earth after the 6th seal is broken (Rev. 6:12) on the last day of this age. Verse 3 says, "Hurt not the EARTH, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." The angels have to hold back the winds of the Earth until they are sealed. Then the Tribulation saints are all before the throne in Heaven before noon the next day. Do you think all of them are killed, resurrected and caught up to Heaven in that short space of time before the wrath of God hits Earth? I think it makes more sense if they are caught up at the "last trump" of I Cor. 15:51,52.
This is when the crowned Christ sits on a white cloud and thrusts in his sickle to reap the "harvest of the Earth" (Rev. 14:14-16). That harvest is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Zeph. 2:3 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID in the day of the LORD's anger." Seeking righteousness pays off even at that late date. Agape
Thanks for your encouragement.
Isn't the shortened tribulation the same 2300 days mentioned in Daniel?
If 1967 marked the beginning of the final 40 years, then they need to end in 2007.
The last day in 2007 is December 31st.
If you take December 31st 2007, and subtract 2300 days, you find that the 2300 days must start on September 13th, 2001, not September 18th. September 18th only gives you 2295 days.
If the rapture has not happened by September 13th 2001, then the 2300 days of Daniel don't seem to fit with the parable of the fig tree. Just a thought.
Aside from that, let me present you with an uneducated, off-the-cuff idea: Let's say that the rapture happened in the evening of Sept. 7th 2001.
2300 days from September 7th, 2001, will end up on December 25th, Christmas, 2007. Granted, Jesus probably was not born on Christmas - but for those Christians living at the end of the tribulation, I'll bet Christmas day 2007 will be pretty special.
Found today: "Yasser Arafat urged the United Nations World Conference Against Racism to condemn Israel's "colonial, racist plot" against the Palestinians in its final declaration on September 7."
> Either way, it's only 3 weeks away. Woooo-Hoooo!!!!!!!!
> > Isn't the shortened tribulation the same 2300 days mentioned in Daniel?
From about 1968 to Pentecost this year, I thought those 2300 days would stretch from Pentecost in 2001 to Trumpets in 2007. If that were true, the Rapture should have taken place last Pentecost. It didn't, and I had to rethink the 2300 days of Dan. 13,14. They end with the cleansing of the sanctuary. That seems to happen on Nisan 1, when I think Christ will return. Eze. 45:18 says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary". V. 21 talks about them keeping the Passover on Nisan 14, so we know that the "first month" is Nisan. We can also tell from Eze. 29:17,21 that the Second Advent will be on Nisan 1.
I counted back the 2300 days from Nisan 1, 2008 (Apr. 6, 2008). The first day would be Dec. 19, 2001. I am hoping the Rapture will be before that. There are 2 good chances, Tishri 1 (Sept. 18, 2001), Jesus' birthday, or Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 3, 2001), when Noah went in the Ark and the Lord closed the door. We should know soon.
I keep wondering about the wall that is bulging at the temple mount. If it were to break, it would be world news. That could be a sign. Keep watching.
> > If 1967 marked the beginning of the final 40 years, then they need to end in 2007.
I agree with this, but think they will end on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. Add 7 good and 7 bad years, as when Joseph was in Egypt, and we come to Sept. 13, 2007. Those Accords were ratified 3 days later in Israel. It was Tishri 1. Add the 14 years and you get Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007.
From Palm Sunday in 30 AD to Av 10, 70 AD, when the temple proper burned, was 40 years plus another 120 days. From June 7, 1967 to Sept. 13, 2007 is 40 years plus another 120 days.
I think the millennial Day of the Lord has to start with the Day of God's Wrath on the Feast of Trumpets. Mal. 2:3 says, "your solemn FEASTS; and one shall take you away with it. Hos. 9:5,6 says, "What will ye do in the solemn day, and in the day of the FEAST of the LORD" For, lo, they are gone because of DESTRUCTION." Hos. 5:7 says, "They have dealt treacherously against the LORD: for they have begotten strange children: now shall a MONTH (chodesh, new moon, the 1st of a month) devour them with their portions." The ONLY feast that is on the first of the month is Trumpets.
The days between Trumpets and the Day of Atonement are called the days of awe. Jews are to afflict their souls and repent so they will be accepted by the Lord on the Day of Atonement. Joel 1:14,15; 2:1,2 says, "Sanctify ye a fast (Day of Atonement, Tishri 10), call a solemn assembly (Tishri 1, Trumpets), gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, (Tishri 1) and AS A DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY SHALL IT COME....BLOW YE THE TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army, Eze. 38); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."
I think we are more apt to hit the mark if we use the Jewish Calendar, don't you?
> > "Yasser Arafat urged the United Nations World Conference Against Racism to condemn Israel's "colonial, racist plot" against the Palestinians in its final declaration on September 7."
Our Press-Telegram newspaper said today (Sept. 1), "Arafat paints Israel as racist - UNITED NATIONS: The verbal attack came after the Palestinians said they would not condemn Zionism."
It just shows what a liar Arafat is. He says one thing and does another all the time. He says there is agreement on a peace treaty, then doesn't read it, because he doesn't intend to ever keep it. It doesn't matter what it says. He steps up the violence to make sure that it falls by the wayside anyway. He doesn't want peace or peaceful cohabitation with Israel. He wants every Jew dead and no Israel at all. He is consumed with hate. He thinks the Palestinians have 200 years to beat the Jews as they finally beat the crusaders in the past, so he just keeps picking them off a few at a time. Boy! has he got an awakening coming any way we look at it. When he dies, he will wake up in hell. If he doesn't die before the Day of God's Wrath, he will be in deep deep trouble, being as the asteroid that falls into the Mediterranean Sea will wipe out Gaza and other cities on the coast.
Zeph. 2:4,5 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) in the day of the LORD's anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up.Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites (probably Cretans)! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan (low region), the land of the Philistines (wanderers), I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant." Agape
THE TWO WITNESSES. Rev. 11:4 says, "These are the TWO OLIVE TREES, and the TWO CANDLESTICKS standing before the God of the earth." Zech. 4:11-14 says, "WHAT ARE THESE TWO OLIVE TREES upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil (symbol of the Holy Spirit) out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, THESE ARE THE TWO ANOINTED ONES, THAT STAND BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH." At the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah stood talking to Christ, "the LORD of the whole earth." Rev. 11 shows that the 2 witnesses have the powers that Moses and Elijah had in the past too. I won't be surprised if Moses and Elijah are seated on either side of Christ in Heaven, either.
THE TWO CHERUBIM. I think that Ezekiel's visions in chapters 1 and 10 show us that the cherubim represent planets. Ezekiel was given these visions that portrayed the terrestrial planets as if they were animated. They could fly, so they had wings. Their disks looked like burning lamps in the sky. Between them were asteroids in cometary orbits. The Sun was in the center of the concentric orbits of the terrestrial planets. Outside these four concentric orbits was the cloud of asteroids, our Asteroid Belt. Above, farther out in space, was the throne of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It took me years to unravel the meaning of Ezekiel's visions. It didn't come easy. I read books from BIOLA's library for 7 years without finding out. In desperation, I started to look up every single word in Strong's Concordance. The first glimmer was when I looked up "brightness" (KJV) in v. 4. It is nogah, sunlight. Then the "fire infolding itself" was the Sun. Then when Ezekiel said "that the heavens were opened," he meant that he saw these things in the sky. Whew! step one. I had a chance to figure it out once I knew that much. V. 15 says, "one wheel upon the earth." The only wheel the Earth has in common with the other terrestrial planets is its orbit. There are 4 cherubim and 4 terrestrial planets, Earth among them. Their concentric orbits are wheels in the middle of wheels.
Since the Greek Septuagint was in use in Jesus' day, I'll quote from Brenton's English translation of it and try to show how I finally understood these visions. I looked words up using the KJV, so I hope I get my interpretations all straight when I switch to the LXX.
Ezekiel said, "...the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God (the Son of Man on his throne)....I looked, and, behold, a sweeping (whirling) wind came from the north, and a great cloud on it (the whirling cloud of asteroids in the Asteroid Belt), and there was brightness (sunlight) round about it, and gleaming fire, and in the midst of it (the circling cloud of asteroids) as it were the appearance of amber in the midst of the fire, and brightness in it (the fiery Sun is in the center).
"And in the midst (between the Sun and the Asteroid Belt) as it were (symbolic language) the likeness of four living creatures (lively, moving, things). And this was their appearance; the likeness of a man (adam, red clay) was upon them. And each one had four faces (facing north, south, east and west), and each one had four wings (quarters). And their legs (extremities) were straight (i.e., the limb of their disk was a smooth circle); and their feet were winged, and there were sparks, like gleaming brass (sunlight on them), and their wings were light.
"And the hand (extremity) of a man (adam, red clay), was under their wings on their four sides. And the faces (4 directions they each faced) of them four turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward (their flight was not erratic). And the likeness of their faces was the face of a man, and the face of a lion on the right to the four; and the face of a calf on the left to the four; and the face of an eagle to the four (these 4 faces were on the banners at the compass points when Israel camped in the wilderness). And the four had their wings spread out above; each one had two joined to one another, and two covered their bodies. And each one went straight forward: wherever the spirit (or wind) was going they went, and turned not back." They orbit smoothly around as they face the 4 compass points in turn.
"And in the midst of the living creatures there was an appearance as of burning coals of fire, as an appearance of lamps turning among the living creatures (the asteroids with cometary orbits look like torches as they orbit); and the brightness of fire, and out of the fire came forth lightning. And I looked, and, behold, the four had each one wheel (orbit) on the ground near the living creatures. And the appearance of the wheels was as the appearance of beryl: and the four had one likeness: and their work was as it were a wheel in a wheel. They went (orbited) on their four sides (4 directions): they turned not (erratically) as they went; neither did their backs turn: and they were high: and I beheld them, and the backs of them four were full of eyes (were full orbs, spheres) round about.
"And when the living creatures (lively things) went, the wheels (orbits) went by them: and when the living creatures lifted themselves off the earth, the wheels were lifted off. Where-ever the cloud happened to be, there was the spirit (or wind) ready to go: the wheels went and were lifted up with them; because the spirit of life was in the wheels. When those went, the wheels went; and when those stood, the wheels stood; and when those lifted themselves off the earth, they were lifted off with them: for the spirit of life was in the wheels.
"And the likeness over the heads (farther out in space) of the living creatures was as a firmament (expanse of space), as the appearance of crystal...
"And lo! a voice from above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their head, there was as the appearance of a sapphire stone (sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear), and the likeness of a throne upon it: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as an appearance of a man (Christ, the Son of Man) above. And I saw as it were the resemblance of amber (Saturn is golden) from the appearance of the loins (equator) and upwards, and from the appearance of the loins (equator) and under I saw an appearance of fire, and the brightness thereof round about. As the appearance of the bow when it is in the cloud in days of rain, so was the form of the brightness round about (Saturn's ring system). This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord."
In Gen. 3:24, the cherubim placed to the east of Eden are in the sky. The flaming sword represents the asteroid that will impact Earth. Incoming rocks are the burning coals that are taken from between the cherubim in Eze. 10 and cast over Jerusalem. They are also scattered elsewhere (Rev. 6:13f).
We can see some of the same symbolism in other verses where cherubim are mentioned. The Lord said he would speak to the Israelites from between the cherubim on either side of the Ark of the Covenant. I think Heaven is between 2 other cherubim, Jupiter and Uranus. In Psa. 18:9,10, "He BOWED the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did FLY: yea, he did fly upon the WINGS OF THE WIND." Agape
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Updated 9-2-01