Posted 11-28-01
The prayer begins by remembering "the saints in the security of our hearts...these great women and men of God" who are "the ancient foundation of our faith and our inspiration".
It continues: "The saints were not those who were perfect. They were parts of God's creation who struggled and often failed and yet managed to raise up our faith in God and in one another. Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Sarah, Hannah, Joshua, David, Moses, Mary the Mother of Jesus. Buddha and Mohammed and all the prophets of old. They led God's people to God's light."...
In John 10:16 Jesus said, "OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
In the ancient gospel in the stars, there are TWO SHEEPFOLDS, the Lesser Sheepfold (Little Dipper) and the Greater Sheepfold (Big Dipper). I think the Little Dipper represents the "saints...out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Rev. 5:9 that are raptured when they hear Christ's voice say "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1). The Big Dipper represents the great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, an tongues" that are raptured out of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 5:9,14). Agape
As to the start of God's wrath, Revelation announces the beginning of God's wrath very clearly - at the end of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:17 - "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
The raptured Saints are not shown in Revelation 5, but in Revelation 7 as those who have come out of the great tribulation.
Personally, I have a real problem with the idea of "tribulation saints". Are you saying that SOME believers (those who believe after the rapture) will have to go through God's wrath, while other believers (Those of us who believe now) will get spared?? God's word says he will not pour out his wrath on any of us...it does not make a distinction! In the models of Noah and of Lot, the removing of the saints means NO MORE CHANCES FOR THE UNBELIEVING and UTTER DESTRUCTION. No one will "get saved" during God's wrath.
Lastly, it IS the angels singing in Revelation chapter 5, and not the Elders as you have said. It is the Elders who sing of the Lamb's worthiness, but they joined by the angels, who begin their song in verse 11: "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne"
The purpose of my writing is not to bring dissent, but to air a view which I believe to be realistic and Biblical. I may be wrong about parts of my understanding....I am open to change if that is the case...I would ask that all be open as well. In Christ, Jay
The Pre-Trib raptured saints are shown in Rev. 5. They are the "saints...out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Rev. 5:9 that are raptured when they hear Christ's voice say "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1). The Tribulation saints are the great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, an tongues" that are raptured out of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 5:9,14).
The elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles of Israel. All 24 are seen sitting on their thrones in Heaven in Rev. 4:4. John is one of the elders. Therefore, the other apostles are taken to Heaven when John is taken, when Jesus says, "Come up hither."
> > I have a real problem with the idea of "tribulation saints". Are you saying that SOME believers (those who believe after the rapture) will have to go through God's wrath, while other believers (Those of us who believe now) will get spared?? God's word says he will not pour out his wrath on any of us...it does not make a distinction! In the models of Noah and of Lot, the removing of the saints means NO MORE CHANCES FOR THE UNBELIEVING and UTTER DESTRUCTION. No one will "get saved" during God's wrath.
No believer will have to go through God's Wrath. The wise virgins will be taken to Heaven before the Tribulation. The foolish virgins will be taken to Heaven just before God's Wrath is cast on Earth when the 7 trumpet judgments hit.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah. Rain fell that same day. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day.
All Israel "will "get saved" during God's wrath." Isa. 66:8 says, "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in ONE DAY? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion TRAVAILED, she brought forth her children." The Jews left behind at the 2nd Rapture will be saved that same day. They will live on into the Millennium on Earth.
> > it IS the angels singing in Revelation chapter 5, and not the Elders as you have said. It is the Elders who sing of the Lamb's worthiness, but they joined by the angels, who begin their song in verse 11: "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne"
In Rev. 5:10, the raptured saints out of every nation that have ALREADY sung the new song are made kings and priests. After that, verses 11-13 say, "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; SAYING WITH A LOUD VOICE, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
Notice that the angels SAY, not SING. Only the raptured believers sing the new song. The angels are excluded. Agape
However, it appears that you can install a Microsoft security update patch to prevent this sort of thing happening...The problem is that BadTrans-B can infect your machine even if you don't open the attachment - just if you have the preview window open. This is down to a security loophole in Microsoft Internet Explorer, apparently. You should therefore install this patch, and it will prevent this from happening. There are a lot of sick people out there!
This morning he excitedly called me with what appears to be highly significant. He said that yesterday, Sunday, September 16, he felt led to pray in an unusual manner, "Lord, if you are truly coming back 'extremely' soon, please give me one more opportunity to witness to my mother." His mother has been very hostile to his Christian faith from the beginning and will never let him talk about it.
Just about a half-hour later the prayer was dramatically answered in a way that left no doubt of its divine origin!
He, his mother and five other non-believing Jews were at a cemetery visiting the graves of relatives. They all knew that Neil is a Christian, as he is well-known in the Jewish community and in the past has been the subject of sometimes severe vilification because of his faith. One of the men was, Neil describes, "a successful millionaire businessman and a very worldly Jew." Suddenly, to Neil's shock, this unlikely fellow came up to him and asked, "Neil, what is your take on this (World Trade Center bombing and terrorist) situation?"
Neil immediately recognized the incredible, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to witness not only to his mother but several other non-believing Jews at the same time. They were all waiting for his response.
He told them the whole story about Israel in prophecy, the Jewish prophecies about the Messiah, who He is and what He did, the plan of redemption, what is happening now, and what is coming in the future. He said he did not hold anything back.
To his amazement, Neil said that he spoke for 10-15 minutes and had the undivided attention of all of them! Further, after he finished, no one took issue with or argued with him -- not even his mother, which is most unusual.
Neil said that in 22 years, he has never been able to witness to more than one Jew at a time. But yesterday, he witnessed to SIX, all at one time, had their attention, with no argument (unusual for Jews!) -- and less than an hour after his prayer!!!
This was obviously an answer to his prayer and a Holy Spirit-ordained appointment. Also, in answer to his prayer, it was the confirmation for which he asked.
***I BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS. THEREFORE "I MUST INFORM YOU THAT IT SEEMS YOU ARE MISTAKEN." The promises originally given to Abraham were not conditional, and God always keeps his unconditional promises. Gen 17:4-8 says, "behold, my covenant is with thee (Abram), and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT BETWEEN ME AND THEE AND THY SEED AFTER THEE IN THEIR GENERATION FOR AN EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. AND I WILL GIVE UNTO THEE, AND TO THY SEED AFTER THEE, THE LAND wherein thou art a stranger, ALL THE LAND OF CANAAN, FOR AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.
Many today believe that the Lord will return to the earth and rule from Jerusalem for 1,000 years.
***Personally, I think the Lord will return to Earth with his saints, set up the Millennial government and then return to the heavenly New Jerusalem with his saints. They will help rule for 1000 years, going wherever the Lord sends them, then returning to their heavenly city. Rev. 21:22-27 says of the heavenly city, "I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb ARE the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and THE LAMB IS THE LIGHT THEREOF. And the nations of them which are saved (after the Rapture of the Tribulation saints) shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE."
***The Lord will set up the Tabernacle of David and put the resurrected David on the throne when the Lord returns to the heavenly city. Jer 30:9 says, "they shall serve the LORD their God, and DAVID their king, WHOM I WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEM." Eze. 34:22-24 says, "Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I WILL SET UP ONE SHEPHERD OVER THEM, and he shall feed them, EVEN MY SERVANT DAVID; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I THE LORD WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND MY SERVANT DAVID A PRINCE AMONG THEM; I the LORD have spoken it."
It is claimed that Israel never fully ocuppied the land God promised.
Please note the following Scriptures which show that the land promised was positively fulfilled. Gen.15:18; I Kg 4:21; II Chron. 9:26; Ps. 80:11; Josh 11:23; 21:43-45; I K 4:21. Furthermore, we note that the Land Promise was strictly conditional (Josh. 23:11-16). God warned Israel that if they did not keep their end of the covenant, the land would be taken away from them. Modern-day Israel is NOT the reconstituted Israel of old.
***2Ch 9:26 says that Solomon "reigned over all the kings from the river (Jordan) even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt," but not to the "river of Egypt" (Gen. 15:18). Joshua 11:23; 13:1 says, "Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the LORD said unto Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes....Joshua was old and stricken in years; and the LORD said unto him, Thou art old and stricken in years, and there remaineth yet very much land to be possessed." I Kings 4:21 says, "Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river (Jordan, on the east) unto the land of the Philistines (on the west), and unto the border of Egypt" but not to the "river of Egypt" (Gen. 15:18).
***The land is all promised to Israel, but her possession of it up to the millennial reign of Christ was conditional. After the Second Advent, she will have all her land. Gen. 15:18 says, "In the same day the LORD made a COVENANT WITH ABRAM, saying, UNTO THY SEED HAVE I GIVEN THIS LAND, FROM THE RIVER OF EGYPT UNTO THE GREAT RIVER, THE RIVER EUPHRATES."
***Modern-day Israel IS the reconstituted Israel of old. Zeph 2:1 says, "GATHER yourselves TOGETHER, yea, GATHER TOGETHER, O NATION NOT DESIRED; BEFORE the decree bring forth, BEFORE the day pass as the chaff, BEFORE the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, BEFORE the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you." Eze. 38:8 says, "After many days thou shalt be visited: IN THE LATTER YEARS THOU SHALT COME INTO THE LAND THAT IS BROUGHT BACK FROM THE SWORD, AND IS GATHERED OUT OF MANY PEOPLE, AGAINST THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them."
***Mt. 24:32-35 says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7; Hos. 9:10; Eze., 36:8; Jer. 24:5; Jer. 29:16,17); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., not over 19), and putteth forth leaves (Gaza Strip, Sinai, Golen Heights, West Bank, in Six-Day War of 1967--1948 + 19 = 1967), ye know that summer is nigh (the war started June 5; summer started June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the Rapture) is near, even at the doors (symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8; 4:1). Verily (Amen) I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (1967 + 40 = 2007).
One could take any island in the sea and name it Israel, and it would not be what ancient Israel was. If you called a dog's tail a leg, it would not have five legs. It would still have four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it so.
Note also that the rule of Christ as foretold by Daniel was to be from HEAVEN, not on the earth. (Dan. 7:13; Luke 19:12). Furthermore, Christ was to be a priest and a king at the same time (Psalm 110:1-4). I don't know that any would dispute that he is NOW our high priest. The book of Hebrews clearly points this out in several places. Zechariah 6:13 also points out that the One who was to come would "sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne." If he is now a priest, he is now also a king, ruling over his spiritual kingdom. In fact, at the second coming of Christ, his rule will END, not begin, as per I Cor. 15:24, for he will then turn the kingdom back over to the Fatherl.
***I think that Christ will be given his earthly kingdom while he is in Heaven (Dan. 7:9-14) on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007, Mal. 2:3; Joel 1:15; 2:1-3). I think the millennial Day of the Lord starts then. However, he does not return to Earth for 7 more Jewish months. Eze. 39:12,13 tells us that the Jews will bury the bodies left after the Day of God's Wrath (9-13-07) for 7 months. Then, when the land is cleansed, Christ will return on the 1st day of the Jewish Regnal Year (Nisan 1, 5768/Apr. 6, 2008, Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3). After the 2nd Advent, Christ will be ruling for awhile on Earth. After that, I believe he will rule from the heavenly city. Christ's millennial reign will begin on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, and continue for the 1000 years. After the 1000 years, he will turn the kingdom over to the Father after there is no more death (I Cor. 15:26).
Read Acts 2:30-36 to see the fulfillment of the throne promise. Peter said that God had made Jesus "both Lord and Christ." "Lord" in this context denotes a ruler, and "Christ" refers to one who has been anointed or chosen. Thus Christ is NOW, not in the future, the anointed ruler. See also I Chron. 29:23; Jer 22:30. In fact, Rom. 15:12 indicates that Christ's rule is during the gospel age, not in some future millennium.
***Rom. 15:8 says, "JESUS CHRIST was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE UNTO THE FATHERS." Israel will still inherit all of her land that God promised her. Rom. 15:12 says, "Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse (YHVH, king of Israel), and he (Jesus, offspring of David) that shall rise (anistemi, stand up [again], i.e., at the 2nd Advent) to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust." That will be in the Millennium.
***Christ is actually both YHVH king of Israel and YHVH of hosts, the first (LORD of the Old Testament) AND the last (Lord of the New Testament), the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty. Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH the King of Israel), AND I am the last (YHVH of hosts, the redeemer); and beside me there is no God." Rev 1:8 says, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the ending, saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), AND which was (at the 1st Advent), AND which is to come (at the 2nd Advent), THE ALMIGHTY." Isa. 9:6 says, "unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
***Rev 22:13 says, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the end, the first AND the last. Rev 22:16 says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHVH) AND the offspring of David (Jesus)." 2Co 5:19 says, "GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto himself." Agape.
More could be said, but I will not belabor the point. Please give consideration to the Scriptures. Yours and His
I came to Psa. 6:1. It says, "ADONAI (what the Jews substitute for YHVH; the KJV has LORD in caps), don't rebuke me in YOUR ANGER, don't discipline me in the heat of YOUR FURY." This is the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath. Verses 3 and 4 say, "I am completely terrified; and you ADONAI--HOW LONG? COME BACK, ADONAI, and RESCUE me." The word translated rescue is the Hebrew chalats, to take away, depart, draw out. It suggests the Pre-Wrath Rapture, just before the 7 trumpet judgments strike Earth.
Keep in mind that 1Cor. 10:11 (KJV) says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come."
Back to the CJB. Psa. 7:1 says, "ADONAI my God, in you I take refuge. Save me from all my pursuers, and RESCUE me." This time, rescue is the word NATSAL, to snatch away, i.e., the Rapture. V. 6 says, "RISE UP, ADONAI, in YOUR ANGER." V. 8 says, "judge me, ADONAI, according to my righteousness." V. 9 says, "Let the evil of THE WICKED (False Prophet) come to AN END." At the Judgment Seat of Christ, all the saints, large and small, receive their rewards in Heaven while the unbelievers on Earth receive their just rewards for their unbelief. and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 (KJV) says "the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
I started looking up other verses using rescue, "chalats," to take away, "natsal," to snatch away, or "netsal," to snatch away in the CJB. Some are very interesting.
Psa. 18:9-12 says, "He lowered heaven and CAME DOWN with thick darkness under his feet. He rode on a keruv (cherub); he flew, swooping down on the wings of the wind. He made darkness his hiding-place, his canopy thick clouds dark with water. From the brightness before him, there broke through his thick clouds hailstones and fiery coals." This ties in with the breaking of the 6th seal in Rev. 6:12f.
Continuing, verses 13-20 say, "'Adonai also thundered in heaven, Ha'Elyon sounded his voice--hailstones and fiery coals. He sent out arrows and scattered them, shot out lightning and routed them. The channels of water appeared, the foundations of the world were exposed at YOUR REBUKE, ADONAI,at the blast of breath from your nostrils. 'He sent from on high HE TOOK ME AND PULLED ME OUT OF DEEP WATER; HE RESCUED (natsal, to snatch away) me from my powerful enemy...he RESCUED (chalats, to take away) me, because he took pleasure in me. ADONAI rewarded me for my uprightness, he repaid me because my hands were clean."
This suggests the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath. To me, it seems that the Rapture and the asteroid impact into the Mediterranean Sea happen in a very short period of time. The Tribulation saints just get out, in the night or early morning, then the wrath of God is poured out at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on unbelievers left on Earth.
Psa. 34:4,6,7,19 says. "I sought ADONAI, and he answered me; he RESCUED (natsal, to snatch away) me from everything I feared...This poor man cried; ADONAI heard and SAVED (yasha, delivered, deliverer, i.e., Yeshua/Christ, rescued) him from all his troubles. The ANGEL OF ADONAI (Christ), who encamps around those who fear him, DELIVERS (chalats, takes away) them." V. 22 says, "ADONAI redeems his servants; no one who takes refuge in him will be condemned....The righteous person suffers many evils, but ADONAI RESCUES (natsal, snatches away) him out of them all."
Psa. 50:3-5,15 says, "Our God is COMING and not staying silent. With a fire devouring ahead of him and a great storm raging around him, HE CALLS TO THE HEAVENS ABOVE AND TO EARTH, in order to JUDGE (at the Judgment Seat of Christ) his people. 'GATHER (acaph, take up, remove, GATHER AGAIN, 2nd Rapture) to me my faithful, those who made a covenant with me by sacrifice ...call on me when you are in trouble; I will DELIVER (natsal, snatch away, i.e., at Rapture 2) you, and you will honor me."
Mark 13:27 (KJV) ties in. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN.
This one isn't on the Rapture, but it's interesting. Psa. 80:1 (CJB) says, "Shepherd of Israe'el, listen! You who lead Yosef like a flock, you WHOSE THRONE IS ON THE K'RUVIM (CHERUBIM), shine out! Before Efrayim, Binyamin and M'nasheh, rouse your power; and come to save (YESHUAH) us." I wonder why the Jews that read Hebrew don't see that Yeshua is the Saviour. Scriptures like this are probably all through the Old Testament.
Psa. 81:3,7 says, "Sound the shofar (trumpet) at Rosh-Hodesh (Feast of Trumpets) and at full moon for the pilgrim feast (Tabernacles)...You called out when you were IN TROUBLE (Gog's army attacking Israel), and I RESCUED (chalats, to take away, depart, draw out, i.e., raptured) you." To me this shows that the Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Feast of Trumpets. The Jews saved in a day on that Day of God's Wrath will keep Tabernacles on Earth.
I Sam. 30:18 says, "David (type of Christ) recovered all that the 'Amaleki (meaning a people that takes away all) had taken; he also RESCUED (natsal, snatched away) HIS TWO WIVES." This suggests that Christ will rapture "HIS TWO WIVES," 1st the wise virgins (mostly Gentiles) and 2nd the 144,000 Israelites, who are also "virgins" (Rev. 14:4,5).
Hos. 5:8-10,14,15 says, "'Blow the shofar (trumpet) in Giv'ah (hill), a trumpet at Ramah (high place); sound an alarm at Beit-Aven (hill of vanity; idols): 'Behind you, Binyamin!' Efrayim will be laid waste WHEN THE DAY FOR PUNISHMENT COMES (The Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium); I am announcing to the tribes of Isra'el what will surely happen....I will pour MY FURY out upon them LIKE WATER (on the Feast of Trumpets)....For to Efrayim I will be like a lion (shachal, fierce lion), and LIKE A YOUNG LION (taraph, pluck off) TO THE HOUSE OF Y'HUDAH--I will tear them up and GO AWAY (yalak, carry away again); I will CARRY THEM OFF (nasa, lift up, take away), and no one will rescue (natsal, snatch away). I WILL GO AND RETURN TO MY PLACE (Heaven), till they admit their guilt and search for me, seeking me eagerly in their distress.'" The Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place first, then the Jews left behind will be born in a day, that day. They will become the remnant that will live on into the Millennium on Earth.
"LIKE A YOUNG LION" reminds me of the face like a young lion that appeared over Jerusalem when the moon was eclipsed. (Picture on my Home page.
Psa. 140:1-3 says, "Rescue (chalats, depart, take away) me, ADONAI, from evil people. protect me from violent people (terrorists like Arafat). They plan evil things in their hearts--they continually stir up bitter strife. They have made their tongues as sharp as a snake's; viper's venom is under their lips." Verse 10 adds, "May burning coals rain down on them, may they be flung into the fire, flung into deep pits, never to rise again."
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Updated 11-28-01