Posted 12-12-01
Arafat’s nyets came thick and fast again in response to demands from similar demands from the European Union’s foreign policy executive Javier Solana when he called on the Palestinian leader in Ramallah Tuesday. The visit followed the EU’s demand that Arafat end the armed Palestinian intifada and dismantle the Hamas and Jihad Islami groups.
The same European decision also called on Israel to halt Jewish settlement. However, the more Arafat says no, the stronger Sharon’s international standing....
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New US View - Arafat Is History
http://www.rense.com/general17/history.htm
...Diplomatic sources here said the President's view that Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat has lost credibility as a negotiating partner is shared by Secretary of State Colin Powell, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice and the congressional leadership....
A Senate resolution called on Bush "to suspend all relations with Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority" if they fail to "destroy the infrastructure of Palestinian terror groups [and] pursue and arrest terrorists whose incarceration has been called for by Israel."
"The world expects" in fact, the world demands "that chairman Arafat crack down on the organizations that harbor and support these terrorists," Senate Majority Leader Democrat Tom Daschle said. "Without concrete action, Israel will be left with no choice but to continue to defend itself."...
Bush made it clear that Arafat was not a credible partner in any Israeli-Palestinian negotiating process....
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Hamas calendar sales reflect disdain for Arafat
BY CHRISTOPHER WALKER
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2001571147,00.html
Israeli statistics show the sharp rise in suicide attacks since the latest violence, dubbed the second intifada by Palestinians, began last year. From 1993, when the tactic started, until September 29, 2000, 43 Palestinian terrorists had died in 38 separate suicide attacks; since then, 39 terrorists have been killed in 36 such attacks. Most of those who have killed themselves have been members of Hamas.
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Note: Hmmmmm. 1993 (1st Palestinian Intifada) + 7 (2nd Palestinian Intifada) + 7 = 2007.
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Israeli Youths Confess to Writing 'Goner' Internet Worm
12-8-01 JERUSALEM — ...The teens, ages 15 and 16, are high school students in the northern city of Nahariya...
One of the teens confessed to writing the worm and the other youths confessed to spreading it, Zohar said. All four are in custody and could face between three and five years in jail if convicted.
1.) Daniel 7:24-25)
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
2.) Daniel 12:6-7
And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the
holy people, all these things shall be finished.
3.) Revelation 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
4.) Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
5.) Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him TO CONTINUE forty and two months.
ALL of these scriptures are referring to the "great tribulation" which is the last half of the seven year tribulation. However, your reasoning necessarily requires Rev 13.5 to be referring to the first half of the seven year tribulation when you say, "The 1260th day of The Beast's rule ends Mid-Trib. Then the False Prophet begins to rule the next day, the 1st day of the 2nd 1260-day period."
I very respectfully content that you are in great error when you force this one verse to stand in opposition to the obvious scriptural context of the entirety.
You say "I stand by my statement. I think the False Prophet is the Satan-possessed son of perdition through whom Satan works for 1040 days, the shortened Great Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14 [2300 - 1260 = 1040])"
ALL of the five scriptures say 1260 days. You say the False Prophet rules for 1040 days. How do you rationalize this contradiction as to the number of days? The False Prophet cannot rule both 1260 days AND 1040 days.
Daniel 8-12 portrays the antichrist with no scriptural contradictions. Your scenario of these chapters as portraying the False Prophet creates MANY scriptural contradictions, the least of which is the 1260/1040 problem. As always, with Agape. Thanks much and give my best to Ed.
On the 1260-day passages. Thanks for looking them all up. It is so much easier to see what it is talking about when like things are together. At the first reading, I agreed that 1, 2 and 4 were talking about the Great Tribulation. Numbers 3 and 5 seem to be talking about the 1st half of the Tribulation, but I will go over them again to be sure.
> > 3.) Revelation 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
This passage is in the parenthetic section between the 6th and 7th trumpets. Therefore, we have to look for match marks to see where it belongs on the timeline. The first verse says, "there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise (egeiro, take up), and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein."
I have taken this as literal, and it may be literal, but let's see if it can be symbolic. That would explain why the literal temple has not yet been built. "Rise" could represent the Pre-Trib Rapture, when the spiritual temple of God is caught up to Heaven along with John, as in Rev. 4:1. It seems that the Bride group is numbered. Here, the Bride could be those "that worship therein" that John is to "measure." The 144,000 Israelites are also measured and are virgins without fault before the throne of God in Rev. 14:4,5. In Rev. 7:9,14, the great multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation cannot be numbered.
Rev. 11:2 says, "But the court (aule, court, sheepfold, i.e., the Greater Sheepfold, the Tribulation saints) which is without the temple (i.e., left on Earth when the Lesser Sheepfold is taken to Heaven) leave out, and measure it not (the great multitude of Rev. 7:9 can't be numbered); for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
The two witnesses arrive as the 42 months begin and "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (v. 3). This is the same as the 42 months. "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half" (Rev. 11:7-9). V. 10 says, "And they that swell upon the earth shall REJOICE OVER THEM, AND MAKE MERRY, AND SHALL SEND GIFTS ONE TO ANOTHER."
These 2 witnesses can't be killed on the Day of God's Wrath. On that day, the dead shall lay around the earth. Every wall will fall. No one left will be rejoicing. Therefore, I think the 1260 days that the 2 witnesses prophesy are the first half of the 70th week of Daniel.
The "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is Satan. At the time of the Rapture, his coming up out of the bottomless pit is still future. Rev. 17:8 says, "The beast that thou sawest was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (Mid-Trib), and go into perdition (the False Prophet, the son of perdition; II Thess. 2:3): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now), and yet is" (exists).
Also, the Great Tribulation is the only segment that is to be shortened. Mt. 24:21,22 says, "then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be SHORTENED."
The first half of the 70th week of Dan. 9:27 seems to be what Rev. 11:2 says will be "forty and two months," or 1260 days, v. 3.
> > 5.) Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him (the Beast) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him TO CONTINUE forty and two months.
There are only 2 times that we find "forty and two months," in Rev. 11:2 and 13:5. This suggests that both passages refer to the first half of the 70th week of Daniel. Rev. 13:5 is in the section that talks about the reign of the first beast (13:2-10). He is the BEAST that reigns during the 1st half of the Tribulation.
The reign of the second beast starts in Rev. 13:11 and is during the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. He is Satan-possessed, so speaks "as a dragon" (13:11). Therefore, Satan is kicked out of heaven Mid-Trib.
In Rev. 12:9, Satan is cast out of Heaven "INTO THE EARTH." Evidently, he comes right back up. This is when he "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and GO INTO PERDITION" (the False Prophet, who is the "son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3). At the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 17:10,11 says, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one IS (the BEAST of Rev. 13:2-10), and the other (the False Prophet) is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue A SHORT SPACE (i.e., the Great Tribulation that is shortened, Mt. 24:21,22). And the beast that was, and is not, even he (Satan) is the eighth (the tail of the great red dragon), and is of the seven (they are guided by Satan), and GOETH INTO PERDITION" (who becomes Satan-possessed Mid-Trib).
Rev. 12:6 and 14 mention 1260 days and "time, and times, and half a time (3.5 years) where the believing remnant of Israel are to be nourished "FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT." Satan is in the False Prophet during the last half of the 70th week of Daniel, so this 3.5 years (1260 days) is the Great Tribulation that is to be shortened (Mt. 24:21,22).
> > your reasoning necessarily requires Rev 13.5 to be referring to the first half of the seven year tribulation when you say, "The 1260th day of The Beast's rule ends Mid-Trib. Then the False Prophet begins to rule the next day, the 1st day of the 2nd 1260-day period." > > I very respectfully content that you are in great error when you force this one verse to stand in opposition to the obvious scriptural context of the entirety.
Don't you think Rev. 11:3 represents the first half of the 70th week of Daniel? At the end of that first 1260 days, the False Prophet kills Moses and Elijah. At this time, the False Prophet is just beginning his reign. People rejoice and send each other gifts. Three and a half days later, these 2 witnesses are resurrected and ascend to Heaven. In the same hour, an earthquake hits Jerusalem killing 7000. Believers in Judea "fly into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3.5 years) from the face of the serpent" (Satan in the False Prophet).
That does not match up correctly with the world-wide earthquake, when the dead lay around the Earth and the False Prophet is deposed from office on the Day of God's Wrath. If the 1260 days of Rev. 11:3 was not the first half of the Tribulation, we would have the 2 witnesses killed by the False Prophet on the Day of God's Wrath when the False Prophet himself will be deposed from office. We would also have the earthquake in Jerusalem (Rev. 11:13) killing 7000 three and a half days after "the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH" (Rev. 16:19).
Moses and Elijah are to prophesy 1260 days (Rev. 11:3) "And when they shall have FINISHED their testimony (Mid-Trib), the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (Mid-Trib, Rev. 12:9; 17:8) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." When killed, they have already prophesied during the 1260-day first half of the Tribulation. I can't see any way around the 1260 days of Rev. 11:3 being the first half of the Tribulation. Can you?
> > You say "I stand by my statement. I think the False Prophet is the Satan-possessed son of perdition through whom Satan works for 1040 days, the shortened Great Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14 [2300 - 1260 = 1040])"
> > ALL of the five scriptures say 1260 days. You say the False Prophet rules for 1040 days. How do you rationalize this contradiction as to the number of days? The False Prophet cannot rule both 1260 days AND 1040 days.
I was wrong about the 1040 days. If the 2300 days (1260 + 1040) had fit between Pentecost, 2001 and Sept. 13, 2007, as I thought, the Rapture would have taken place last Pentecost, and the Tribulation would have begun then. It didn't, so the 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14) probably fit between the beginning of the Tribulation and Christ's 2nd Advent. Evidently, when he comes "In the first month, in the first day of the month (Nisan 1, Eze. 29:17,21)" the sanctuary will be cleansed (Eze. 45:18). Dan. 8:14 says, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
If this is correct, the 2300-day Tribulation will start Dec. 19, 2001. We will know soon if that is right or not.
> > ALL of the five scriptures say 1260 days. You say the False Prophet rules for 1040 days. How do you rationalize this contradiction as to the number of days? The False Prophet cannot rule both 1260 days AND 1040 days.
His rule is during the Great Tribulation, which is cut short, so he rules 1260 days minus whatever number of days are cut off. As far as I can see, the 2300 days is the only way to determine how many days are cut off. 2300 - 1260 = 1040, so 220 days are cut off of the time from Mid-Trib (maybe 6-1-2005) to the Second Advent (Apr. 6, 2008). See if this is what you come up with.
> > Daniel 8-12 portrays the antichrist with no scriptural contradictions. Your scenario of these chapters as portraying the False Prophet creates MANY scriptural contradictions, the least of which is the 1260/1040 problem.
Dan. 8:9-14 says, "a little horn (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land (Israel). And it (the Satan part) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground (1/3rd of the fallen angels, Rev. 12:4), and stamped upon them. Yea, he (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) magnified himself even to the prince of the host (Christ), and by him (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) the daily sacrifice was taken away (Mid-Trib), and the place of his sanctuary (the asteroid Wormwood, Rev. 8:10,11) was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (first 1260 days of the Tribulation), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Tribulation), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (on Nisan 1, Eze. 45:18).
I now think the 2300 days are from the beginning of the Tribulation, when the Jews begin to sacrifice, until Christ's return in glory.
Dan. 8:17 says, "at the TIME OF THE END shall be the vision." This time of the end is the Tribulation. V. 19 says, "I will make thee know what shall be in the LAST END of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be." This "last end of the indignation" is the Great Tribulation, called "THE END" in Mt. 24:14.
Concerning the latter time, Dan. 8:23-26 says, "when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up (the Satan-possessed False Prophet). And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (by Satan's): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he (the False Prophet) shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (Christ); but he (the False Prophet) shall be broken without hand (the Asteroid impact does the job, Zech. 11:17). And the vision of the evening and the morning (2300 evenings and mornings) which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days."
Dan. 9:27 says, "Dan 9:27 "he (the False Prophet) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (70th week of Daniel): and in the midst of the week (Mid-Trib) he (the False Prophet, 'man of sin,' 'son of perdition,' II Thess. 2:3) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (he sits in the temple 'shewing himself that he is God,' II Thess. 2:4), and for the overspreading of abominations (idols, Rev. 13:14) he shall make it (the temple) desolate, even until the consummation (of this age), and that determined (the asteroid impact) shall be poured upon the desolate" (desolator).
"And arms shall stand on his (the False Prophet's) part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICE (Mid-Trib), and they shall place the abomination ('image of the beast,' Rev. 13:15, that maketh desolate" (Dan. 11:31).
Dan. 11:39 says, "and he (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) shall cause them to rule over many, and SHALL DIVIDE THE LAND FOR GAIN." This may tie in with the handwriting on the wall that says in Dan 5:28, "PERES; Thy kingdom is divided."
Dan 11:45 says, "And he (the False Prophet) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas (in Jerusalem, between the Mediterranean and the Dead Sea) in the glorious holy mountain (Mt. Moriah, the temple mount); yet he shall come to his end (on the Day of God's Wrath), and none shall help him."
Dan. 12:1,2 says, "at that time (Day of God's Wrath, Rev. 6:17) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (Day of God's Wrath), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (Day of God's Wrath) thy people (the 144,000 Israelites, Rev. 7) shall be delivered (malat, ESCAPE, LEAP OUT, i.e., raptured), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake."
Dan. 12:4 says, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end (the Tribulation, Dan. 8:17): many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Moses and Elijah will prophesy during the first 1260 days of the Tribulation.
"How long shall it be to THE END of these wonders?" (Dan. 12:6). It "shall be for a time, times, and an half (the 3.5-year Great Tribulation, from the abomination of desolation in the middle of the Tribulation to the Day of God's Wrath, when the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place, Dan. 12:1,2); and when he (the False Prophet) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED" (Dan. 12:7).
There are two more sets of days that start Mid-Trib at the abomination of desolation, 1290 days and 1335 days (Dan. 12:11,12). I think the extra 30 days are for the "sheep" to mourn the "goats" that are put in the Lake of Fire at the Judgment of the Nations (Mt. 25:31-41). Nu. 20:29 says, "when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, they mourned for Aaron THIRTY DAYS, even all the house of Israel." Daniel will actually stand in his lot (of land) in Israel on the 1335th day.
Since the Great Tribulation is shortened, the 1290 and 1335 day periods must be shortened too. If Nisan 1, 5768, Apr. 6, 2008 is the end of the shortened Tribulation, 30 more days brings us to May 6. Another 45 days brings us to June 20, 2008.
Dan. 8-12 all hangs together for me. Does this make sense to you?
Ed is ok, but can hardly get out of his recliner or the car. His legs are weak in spite of our walking and his exercising at Cardiac Rehab. Those 4 TIAs, little strokes, left some permanent disability in spite of not lasting over 24-hours. That added to his heart only working half as hard as it should takes its toll.
I hope you are as well as possible. I keep you and your family in my prayers. Blessings and agape
The expression "the imminency of Christ's return " means that Christ could return at any moment. Nothing else has to happen before His return.
TWO significant things should be noted concerning the imminency of Christ's return. First, the Bible teaches the imminency of His return in such passages as 1 Corinthians 1:7; 16:22 ("Maranatha" means Oh, Lord come!); Philippians 3:20; 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Titus 2:12-13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 16:15; 22:7,12,20....
***Two of these references really stand out, because they show that we are to look for Christ's return, not the appearance of "the son of perdition," as some that do not understand that "apostasia" in II Thess. 2:3 means "departing" teach.
***I Cor. 1:7,8 says, "So that ye come behind in no gift; WAITING FOR THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (the first of the two "days of the Son of Man," Luke 17:22-26).
***I Thess. 1:10 says, "WAIT FOR HIS SON FROM HEAVEN, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
The First Epistle of Clement, 23 (written around 96 A.D. by Clement, a prominent leader of the church at Rome who knew some of the apostles personally and probably is the Clement referred to in Phil. 4:3): "Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'speedily will He come, and will not tarry'."
The Didache, chapter 16, section 1 (written as early as 70 to 90 AD. or as late as 120 to 180 A.D.): "'Be vigilant over your life; 'let your lamps' not be extinguished, or your loins ungirded, but be prepared, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come."
John Calvin, the reformer at Geneva during the 1500s and founder of the Presbyterian Church, made the following statements in some of his commentaries on books of the Bible: "Be prepared to expect Him every day, or rather every moment." "As He has promised that He will return to us, we ought to hold ourselves prepared, at every moment to receive Him. "Today we must be alert to grasp the imminent return of Christ." Commenting on 1 Thessalonians 4, the "Rapture passage, Calvin said that Paul "means by this to arouse the Thessalonians to wait for it, nay more, to hold all believers in suspense, that they may not promise themselves some particular time...that believers might be prepared at all times."
The Westminster Confession, xxxiii, 3 (written by the Puritans of England during the 1600s), declared that men should "shake off all carnal security and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come."...
The pretribulation Rapture view is the only view of the Rapture that comfortably fits the biblical teaching of the imminent return of Christ. It is the only view that can honestly say that Christ could return at any moment and that nothing else has to happen before His return. Since all the other views believe that the Church will go through at least part of the 70th week of Daniel 9 before Christ returns to rapture it, those views cannot honestly say that Christ could return at any moment. According to those views, at least some part of the 70th week of Daniel 9 has to transpire before Christ returns to rapture the church.
***I agree wholeheartedly with the pretribulation Rapture view. However, I think the exact time for the Bridegroom's coming for his Bride was planned before the world began. God is omniscient and knows ahead of time exactly when things will happen. He is omnipotent and has the power to bring everything to pass exactly as he planned.
Who exactly is Satin's seed? Is this a figure of speech meaning everyone that is not saved? Or could it refer to the descendents of the fallen angels who mated with humans? How do we know these descendents are not still around today?
What do you think?
> > could it refer to the descendents of the fallen angels who mated with humans? How do we know these descendents are not still around today?
The offspring in Gen. 6 were giants. The last giant was Og. He has no descendants.
De. 3:11 says, "For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man."
De. 3:3 says, "So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining." Agape
At noon. Hmmmm. The asteroids will impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on the Day of God's Wrath. That brings darkness. The Rapture of the Tribulation saints is before noon that day. It sure would be nice if the Pre-Trib Rapture would happen before noon on Dec. 14. The Jewish day begins at 6 PM the evening before. Agape
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