Posted 1-22-02
The transgression of sinat chinom, enmity, is our unconscionable sin and remains historically embedded in the collective Jewish psyche. The first Temple was destroyed and Israel was exiled because Jews were guilty of the three worst sins: immorality, bloodshed and idolatry. The Temple was rebuilt and sovereignty restored after seventy years. Israel repented and G-d forgave. The second Temple, however, was destroyed because of causeless enmity (isn’t that what all hate is?) and we still remain without a Temple, still suffer the pangs of terror and destruction, because we Jews fail to do teshuva, repent. In contrast, Jewish unity, which in matters of survival should be all-inclusive, is the essential weapon against all forms of adversity....
Deu 11:26-32 (Complete Jewish Bible) says, "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse--the blessing, if you listen to the mitzvot of ADONAI your God that I am giving you today; and the curse, if you don't listen to the mitzvot of ADONAI your God, but turn aside from the way I am ordering you today...you are to cross the Yarden to enter and take possession of the land ADONAI your God is giving you; you are to own it and live in it. And you are to take care to follow all the laws and rulings I am setting before you today."
Also, to make matters worse, Mt. 27:24,25 (CJB) says, "When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water, washed his hands in front of the crowd, and said, "My hands are clean of this man's blood; it's your responsibility." All the people answered, "His blood is on us and on our children!" That is why the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. That is why Jerusalem was burned.
When the Pharisees and Sadducees desired of Yeshua "a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas" (Mt. 16:1-4).
Mt. 23:37, their Messiah said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
Mt. 27:51-54 (CJB) says, "At that moment (of Yeshua's death) the parokhet in the Temple was ripped in two from top to bottom; and there was an earthquake, with rocks splitting apart. Also the graves were opened, and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life; And after Yeshua rose, they came out of the graves and went into the holy city, where many people saw them. When the Roman officer and those with him who were keeping watch over Yeshua saw the earthquake and what was happening, they were awestruck and said, "He really was a son of God."
Prov. 30:4 (CJB) says, "Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has cupped the wind in the palms of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!"
Psa. 2:4-12 (CJB) says, "He who sits in heaven laughs; ADONAI looks at them in derision. Then in his anger he rebukes the, terrifies them in his fury. I myself have installed my king on Tziyon, my holy mountain. "I will proclaim the decree: ADONAI said to me, You are my son; today I became your father. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance; the whole wide world will be your possession. You will break them with an iron rod, shatter them like a clay pot.'" Therefore, kings, be wise: be warned, you judges of the earth. Serve ADONAI with fear; rejoice, but with trembling. Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and you perish along the way, when suddenly his anger blazes. How blessed are all who take refuge in him."
Isa. 7:13,14 (CJB) says, "Listen here, house of David! Is trying people's patience such a small thing for you that you must try the patience of my God as well? Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign: the young woman will become pregnant, bear a son and name him 'Immanu El [God is with us]."
Mt. 1:23 (CJB) says, "All this happened in order to fulfill what ADONAI had said through the prophet, "The virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call him 'Immanu El." (The name means, "God is with us.") When Yosef awoke he did what the angel of ADONAI had told him to do--he took Miryam home to be his wife...she had given birth to a son, and he named him Yeshua."
Until Israel realizes she made a mistake and repents, she will have troubles. As the Tribulation is about to be shortened, Gog's army will attack. Zech. 12:9,10 (CJB) says, "When that day comes, I will seek to destroy all nations attacking Yerushalayim; and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they peirced." They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son."
How can this be? II Cor. 5:19 (CJB) says, "if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation--the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new! And it is all from God, who through the Messiah has reconciled us to himself and has given us the work of that reconciliation, which is that God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself."
> > To Phil's credit, he differs with most pre-trib teachers as to who will make up the "chosen." He does unfortunately stick to the line that for those who are "left behind" there is only one way out. Death.
> > I whole heartedly disagree.
David, I agree with you on that. I can't see the 144,000 Israelites and all of the great multitude that no man can number of Rev. 7:9 all being martyrs. That would take more of a stretch of imagination than I could muster.
However in answering Phil, you said that I Thess. 4:16,17 will "come at the end of the Tribulation rather than at the beginning." I think it is at the FIRST TRUMP OF GOD (before the Tribulation, I Thess. 4:13-18) rather than at the LAST TRUMP (at the end of the shortened Tribulation, I Cor. 15:51,52).
You based your decision on Rev. 20:4,5's "This is the first resurrection." I'll quote some of what you wrote. Read the first part of the verse very carefully, thinking, who are THEY that sat on the thrones. THEY were already seated on their thrones before John mentioned THEM that were beheaded. These are two different groups.
> > "And I saw thrones, and THEY sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: AND I saw the souls of THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Rev. 20:4,5. > >
> > The "first resurrection" is of those who "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" and who "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Since this is the "first" then this must also be the same resurrection Paul is speaking of in 1 Thess. 4 when describing "the dead in Christ" who "shall rise first." This resurrection comes at the end of the Tribulation. Those who are "alive and remain" who "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" are the "great multitude, which no man could number" who have come out of the Great Tribulation of Rev. 7. > >
On two occasions in Revelation, we see some people seated on thrones. In Rev. 4:4, they are the 24 elders who are wearing crowns. It says, "round about the throne (thronos) were four and twenty seats (thronos, thrones): and upon the seats (thronos) I saw FOUR AND TWENTY ELDERS sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads CROWNS of gold. In Rev 11:16, they also are "THE FOUR AND TWENTY ELDERS, which sat before God on their seats (thronos)."
These elders are "clothed in white raiment" in Rev. 4:4. Nothing is said about their having had to wash their robes in the blood of Christ. The Tribulation saints have washed their robes in the blood of Christ (Rev. 7:14), so they also wear white robes, but at a later time. Among these are the Laodiceans. Jesus warned them to buy of him white raiment (Rev. 3:18).
The other 23 elders were caught up with John in Rev. 4;1, making 24 elders in Heaven before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. THE ELDERS ARE PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION. Heb 11:40 shows that no one is made perfect before we are. It says, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect"
The elders are the Representatives of the saints in the government of God. This group of saints, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9), are also in Heaven before the Tribulation begins in Rev. 6.
Heb 12:23 shows that all groups will have been made perfect by the time the whole Boby of Christ is called to Heaven "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT." This assembly is of all the saints in Heaven on the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Mark 13:25-27 says, "the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds (Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Luke 17:22-26) with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (to gather those that were caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture).
What some have failed to see is that THERE ARE RANKS IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION. I Cor. 15:22-24 says, "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER (tagmati, RANK): Christ (the Firstfruit; Rom. 11:16) the firstfruits (wise virgins); afterward they (Tribulation saints, including foolish virgins) that are Christ's at his coming (the day the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky). Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
> > Those who are not part of the Firstfruit rapture will be given 3 and 1/2 years to prioritize their relationship with Jesus, seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness. There will then be a rapture of the "Tribulation saints" which no man can number.> >
If the 2nd Rapture is Mid-Trib (as you seem to think), the Tribulation saints would not have to face the False Prophet, his image, or the Mark of the Beast. These are in the Great Tribulation, after Moses and Elijah prophesy 1260 days, are killed, then are resurrected after 3.5 days and called up to Heaven. As you quoted, Rev. 20:4,5 says, "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Rev. 20:4,5.
The Tribulation saints live and reign with Christ 1000 years. How about those caught up before the Tribulation begins? Rev. 3:11 says, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy CROWN." Then what is the difference between the millennial duties of the two groups? Rev. 5:10 says of the 1st group that Christ "hast made us unto our God KINGS AND PRIESTS: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth." The crown made this group kings.
What is said of the Tribulation saints? They are "before the throne of God; and serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 20:5), but no crown is mentioned. Agape
Two questions:
If it is not the Father's will for anyone to have anything, will they ever be able to obtain it by their own efforts?
If it is the Father's will for anyone to obtain anything, will He not give it to anyone who asks for it in His timing?
> > If it is not the Father's will for anyone to have anything, will they ever be able to obtain it by their own efforts?
No. However, I think if one persists over a long time in praying for something specific, he might get it, even if it isn't the best thing for him. We should be careful to ask according to his will, knowing that his will has our best interests at heart. He knows better than we do what is best for us.
> > If it is the Father's will for anyone to obtain anything, will He not give it to anyone who asks for it in His timing?
If it is His will and His timing, I don't see why not. Agape
The question is what would the response be for the appearance of Christ in a chariot of fire (which is indicated in the Bible) a white horse, which is symbolic of a conveyance of war as compared to a donkey which symbolizes coming in peace? If Christ appears in a way which we do not expect Him, will he be rejected in the same way He was the first time. It seems to me that is the case. I think that is why He has revealed His symbol so that if we have eyes to see we will not be deceived....
8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10 "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. NASU
It appears to me, base on this scripture being true and God cannot lie, then any interpretation of Daniel that preceeds the end, let's say, 1948 at a minimum, cannot possibly be correct. Therefore, all of the interpretations of Daniel that fit traditional church doctrines are in error.
I think the picture of the first coming offers a preview of the principles operating for the second coming.
Dan 7:13-14
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. NIV
This appears to be the sign that the Pharisees were looking for as proof of Messiah. They were so confident an proud of their knowledge they could not see Messiah coming any other way for they thought they understood Daniel. Therefore, none of them recognized Jesus as Messiah. This is a picture of organized religion today. They are very confident in their many theories of the "rapture" of the church and Christ's coming. The fact that there are many indicates they are probably all wrong, but like the Pharisees, they are and will be blinded to anything other than their expectation.
But, there were some who did recognize Jesus....
The shepherds heard and went to see the sign, believed and praised God. They did not know the prophesies.
Luke 2:25-38
25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 "Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation, 31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples, 32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Your people Israel." 33 And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34 And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed -- 35 and a sword will pierce even your own soul -- to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed." 36 And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years and had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers. 38 At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem. NASU
Note the characteristics of these people. Simeon had revelation by the Holy Spirit, was looking for Messiah, and was walking in the Spirit when Jesus was brought in as a baby. There was nothing about this baby that could have told Simeon anything. It was a revelation by the Holy Spirit that gave him sight. Likewise, Anna prayed without ceasing in the temple and was led to Simeon and the babe just as Simeon finished speaking. She also believed by revelation, not evidence....
An angel of the Lord appears to Joseph in a dream and tells him to flee to Egypt and he does so. We overestimate the faith it would have taken to do this, if the angel had appeared to a penniless carpenter and told him to leave everything and go to a foreign land. But, imagine the scene. A caravan of many men and camels shows up and begin worshipping your Son, proclaiming Him as King. Joseph and Mary never became totally clear on this as their actions show. But, having done so the wise men give very expensive gifts which fully provide for the family in Egypt. God brought these unlikely men from afar to provide for the safety of His Son and to give us an additional clue.
So what is the common thread. All are very unlikely people to announce the arrival of the Messiah. Outcast shepherds, humble prophets, and pagan Magi. The only common thread is that all were led to the revelation by supernatural means. Looking back in hindsight we can see that everything was foretold by the prophets, but not one could see it at the time. This included the wise men.
If this happened before, then what does this show us could happen the next time? The same thing. Only those who are open to revelation from the Lord and who have the faith to follow Him will see Him when He comes like a thief. For to them He will not appear as a thief for they are praying, fasting and looking to His return, not by trying to figure out prophesies by human wisdom but by walking in the Spirit. If we are abiding in Him, He will not surprise us, but if we are trusting in human wisdom and are, like the Pharisees, mentally locked on to a particular expectation of prophetic fullfillment, we will be just just Herod and his scribes. The Lord came and they knew Him not.
Matt 24:14-28 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
It is 2160 miles, about a fourth that of the Earth.
> > If these rings and rainbow colors are attributes of God's glory, which they appear to be, then it is reasonable that He would display them throughout His creation. We see this in the orbits of solar systems, galaxies, Saturn, New Jerusalem, and I believe it is likely that this design theme is represented in the family of created angelic beings, as represented by the appearance of the Living Creatures in Ezekiel and elsewhere.
I don't think the "living creatures (chay, lively things) in Ezekiel 1 and 10 are angels--or actual living creatures. I think they are the 4 terrestrial planets. What creations could have an appearance "LIKE BURNING COALS OF FIRE"? or "LIKE THE APPEARANCE OF LAMPS"? (Eze. 1:13) except heavenly bodies whose discs look like lighted lamps in the sky?
How can 4 objects in the sky, flying in concentric rings, have an "appearance of lamps" (Eze. 1:13) in the sky and each can also have an "appearance" in "the likeness of a man" (1:5)? They are not shaped like a man, for they are "LIKE BURNING COALS OF FIRE."
They have "the likeness (symbolic language) of a man." The word translated "man" is "adam," which means red clay. The man Adam had a body that was formed of red clay. These four concentrically orbiting "lamps" have bodies formed of red clay.
All four spherical red clay bodies orbit and rotate. One of them is the Earth; "one wheel upon the earth...with his four faces" (1:15). They all face 4 directions, north, south, east and west. When Israel camped around the Tabernacle, they set up four banners at the cardinal points of the compass. Dan erected his banner with an eagle on it marking north. Reuben erected his banner with a man on it marking south. Judah erected his banner with a lion on it marking east. Ephraim erected his banner with an ox on it marking west (Clarence Larkin, Dispensational Truth, 1918).
Every one of these 4 orbiting heavenly bodies "had four faces" (face 4 directions at the same time), and every one had four wings (kanaph, quarters, wings). The astronomical sign for the Earth reflects this. It is a circle divided into quarters. Since these orbiting bodies are animated to show us that they are flying, they are pictured as flying with their wings. However, "every one had two (quarters, wings), which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies" (1:23). This forms the astronomical symbol for the Earth, a circle divided into quarters.
Verses 7,8 say, "their feet (regel, extremeties) were straight feet; and the sole of their feet (extremeties, i.e., outer edge of their discs) was like the sole of a calf's foot (rounded on each side): and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass" (i.e., in the sunlight). And they had the hands (yad, sides) of a man (adam, red clay) under their wings on their four sides" (reba, fourth parts).
Verse 9 says, "Their wings (quarters) were joined one to another (like the astronomical symbol of the Earth; they turned (cabab, turned aside) not when they went; they went every one straight forward" (around their very large circle around the Sun). Verse 17 says, "When they went (orbited), THEY WENT UPON THEIR FOUR SIDES: and they turned not (aside) when they went" (upon their four sides).
Verse 16 say,s "they four had one likeness (each is a sphere): and THEIR APPEARANCE AND THEIR WORK WAS AS IT WERE A WHEEL IN THE MIDDLE OF A WHEEL."
Verse 18 says, "As for their RINGS (orbits), they were so high that they were dreadful; and their RINGS were full of eyes (full orbs, i.e., spherical) ROUND ABOUT THEM four."
> > 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10 "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. NASU
> > It appears to me, base on this scripture being true and God cannot lie, then any interpretation of Daniel that preceeds the end, let's say, 1948 at a minimum, cannot possibly be correct. Therefore, all of the interpretations of Daniel that fit traditional church doctrines are in error
Be sure you are not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Dan. 12:1 says, knowledge shall be increased." That doesn't mean that nothing in Daniel was understood till now. Knowledge was to be had prior to the end times. That knowledge will be INCREASED in the time of the end. Moses and Elijah will see to that.
> > everything was foretold by the prophets, but not one could see it at the time. This included the wise men.
If this happened before, then what does this show us could happen the next time? The same thing. Only those who are open to revelation from the Lord and who have the faith to follow Him will see Him when He comes like a thief. For to them He will not appear as a thief for they are praying, fasting and looking to His return, not by trying to figure out prophesies by human wisdom but by walking in the Spirit. If we are abiding in Him, He will not surprise us, but if we are trusting in human wisdom and are, like the Pharisees, mentally locked on to a particular expectation of prophetic fullfillment, we will be just just Herod and his scribes. The Lord came and they knew Him not.
The same day that the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place, men will see the Lord sitting on his throne in the sky. It is the Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30). Rev. 6:14-17 says, "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the FACE of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
This matches up with Eze. 38:18-23. It says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at MY PRESENCE (paniym, FACE), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I WILL BE KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY NATIONS, and they shall know that I am the LORD."
At the Second Advent 7 months later (Eze. 39:12,13), every eye will see him. Rev 1:7 says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him." Agape
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Updated 1-22-02