Namaste,

I find this interesting for within illusion, the dream or astral

does operate as its own world as well as use impressions from the

waking state..........ONS..Tony.

--- In advaitin@yahoogroups.com, bhaskar.yr@... wrote:

What you say of dream state as an echo of the waking state is purely

from

the empirical viewpoint. One must know that after having a heavy

meal, one

feels dream hunger. That dreams are made of only the materials of the

waking state is only half truth. I hundred percent agree with the

views of

Sri Murthy that the waking and dream egos are entirely different,

there

being no interconnectedness between them. Dream state is a waking

state in

its own right. One cannot judge the dream state from the standpoint

of the

waking state, in view of the seeming permanence of the waking state,

which

experience is had even in the dream state.

  praNAms Sri Shankararaman prabhuji

  Hare Krishna

I whole heartedly agree with your observation prabhuji...infact, the

traditional advaita holds this view firmly based on shruti vAkya

which

equates both waking & dreaming state by saying saptAnga

yEkOnaviMshati

mukhaH (mAndUkya shruti)..indicating both states are *real* in its

own

realm...gaudapAda,  also in his kArikA refutes the theory  of waking

state's sway over the dreaming state....The general belief that

dreams

are  the  product of

impressions  created  in  waking can be acceptable, as you said only

vyAvaharically.    But if you strictly objectively analyse these two

state,

the assertion that "dream is mere *vAsanA-s* of waking state" is not

at all

a  proven fact.

gaudapAda argues in kArika that if we say,  waking is kAraNa (cause)

& it

is  true (sat) &  dream is  the kArya (effect) &  is false (asat),

it is

illogical to say true (sat/waking)  has  given birth to false (asat

/dream).  Because we cannot say

true cause can give birth to false effect.  Unless this problem

resolved we

cannot  say  true waking state's vAsana-s are causing the false or

asat

dreams.

So prabhuji, irrespective of who said what!!  your observation is

very much

valid & within the scope of traditional teaching of our Acharya-s...

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

Namaste,All,

First giving validity to the illusion lets discuss the Soul. What is

it? How is it separate from the original Universal?

It is not that complicated really, the soul is an entity made up of

aggregates or mental constructs. Whether we call them kosas,

samkaras, vasanas or whatever they are all mental constructs in the

mind. They are like beads on a sutra, and the thread of the sutra is

the Ego or 'I' sense. This comes first and all other thoughts are

added to it. Consequently when the Ego/I is eliminated as an

illusion the entire thread collapses-------------HENCE MOKSHA! For

there is really only one soul in the entire universe.

People may say well a separate soul must exist in Muktas like Ramana

Maharshi etc. This is only partially true for the construct of body

and mind will only hold together as long as the prarabda karma

exists. Other than that there is no Ego existing at all, only the

Sakti using the Purified Vijnanamayakosa, for the time alloted by

prarabda.

This is why on Moksha and dropping the body, re-birth can never

occur for there isn't an ego to take rebirth. Ego is a thought and

one thought will cause rebirth. This is what I have learned reading,

The Gita, The Vedas, Sankara, Gaudapada, Ramana, Nisargadatta etc

etc...............ONS...Tony.

"R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani@...> wrote:

>   My question is:

>   Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds

or individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the

substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the

substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to

mind?

>   Whereas A shuns an object, B runs after it and C is indifferent

(udasinaha) to it. Why this difference?

>   Warm regards

>   Mani

Namaste R-ji,IMHO,

Ultimately there is only the concept of ajativada, but having said

that, a hypothesis is drishti-srishti or 'creation' arising with

one's perception of it. An illusory 'I' creating an illusory world.

This really indicates that the common substratum itself is an

illusion. However it does show that even if we give the substratum

some validity for arguments sake, that 'All is One' and we all

perceive the same or similar world. With the proviso that we seem to

add to the illusion with the sutra of ego

thoughts.........ONS...Tony.

Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani@...> wrote:    Friends, Namaste,

>    I am back with a doubt again.

>    The Advaita Vedanta says the mind projects the world because of

self ignorance. And

>    Once Self Knowledge takes place the world �disappears or

vanishes�.

>    My question is:

>    Is the world so projected by the mind is the same for all minds

or individual mind projects its own individual world? What is the

substratum where such a world is projected or superimposed? Is the

substratum same for all minds or the substratum differs from mind to

mind?

>

>Vasishta does not seem to bother about the distinctions between the

private hallucination and the common one, as he emphasises only the

idea that a a mumukshu should

>  be concerned only in understanding the fundamentals. In Ramana's

talks there is clear inference in  many places that the eka-jivavada

theory is being subscribed to. T.M.P. Mahadevan in his exposition of

Pancadasi says that the author subscribes to both the theories.

Namaste R-Ji,

Ramana says that the Ajativada is the ultimate truth but the most

difficult to appreciate. He therefore advises people to entertain

the hypothesis of Drishti-Shristi Vada. The question you are posing

is much tied up with the ego or I thought, for it never wishes to

negate itself or its existence. One may not be aware of the creation

in deep sleep for it doesn't exist in full. What exists is the one

thought of ignorant bliss. The mind has withdrawn from the other

level of materiality and they have collapsed as not having existed

as in waking up from a dream.

So the problem stems from not being realised, and still entertaining

the 'I' thought. The I is believing that everything in creation is

existing whilst it was asleep. This is not so for the 'I' is an

illusion even in creation. So an illusion is making judgements on a

delusion!!

Does the personal dream state exist and the same dream continue when

one wakes up in the morning? No of course not, so each level has its

own temporary delusional validity that's all.

The question one should ask oneself is; Can the 'I' remember what

happened in the deep sleep state? Was it awake in the deep sleep

state? Can it narrate what it remembered?

The fact that all disappears in the deep sleep state just reinforces

the oneness of all even in illusion.  So the doubt is just the 'I'

thought grasping at straws, the thief in the palace that's all, it

feels threatened.........ONS...Tony.

Namaste,

Just to continue;

IMHO, The 'I' believing the world exists while it sleeps is an

attachment a grasping mechanism. For the 'I' identifies strongly

with the world and is reinforced in its belief of its own existence.

By believing that which it is attached to exists in deep sleep. This

is an anchor for the ego and an impediment to realisation. For it is

the mind believing in the mind instead of using a thorn to remove a

thorn.............ONS...Tony.