How would you picture a former member of the legendary Art Ensemble of Chicago, now in his
60's? Humbly and quietly enjoying the fruits of his labors? Well, certainly not what you'd
expect of an AEC member. In the past year, I'd seen Joseph Jarman in two seemingly
different guises that turned out to be very closely related to who he is and what he's
about.
At a performance at Manhattan's Lotus Music and Dance Studios, Jarman played an assortment
of horns, woodwinds and percussion along with a singer, poet and dancer for a wonderful,
inspiring show. Months later, he was doing the opening invocation for the Vision Festival
with a group assembled from his temple who chanted along with him.
Just before meeting up with him for an interview, I witnessed him teaching a martial arts
class. The very sight of a small, thin man flipping huge young men around a room was
astonishing. The group he taught showed him the proper respect not for a legendary
musician (many didn't at first know about his past) but for a master of Japanese arts and
spiritual meditation. This is what he has devoted his life to since leaving the Art
Ensemble in 1993 and he has no regrets at all about it (though he certainly looks back at
it fondly).
So who is Joseph Jarman? Art Ensemble refugee? Bruce Lee? Dali Lama? All of the above and
more, no doubt. I had to chance to chat with him about the breadth of his career shortly
after one of the martial arts classes he teaches at his temple ('dojo'), now a modest one
story building in Brooklyn.
Q: I think a good place to start might be to talk about the dojo itself. How would you
explain what dojo is?
JJ: Well, dojo is a traditional Japanese word for training hall. Jikishinkan, the name of
our dojo, means "direct mind training hall". And so we have that Aikido dojo,
Aikido is a non-invasive martial art, purely based on love and compassion, self-defense.
We have the Brooklyn Buddhists Association, we have meetings there, and we have the
International Zen Dojo of Brooklyn Sogenkai where we practice (renzai) style of Zen
meditation.
Q: You've said that the money to start the dojo came from your Art Ensemble tours?
JJ: Oh, yeah. Some years ago, I guess in 1990 or '91, when I was fortunate enough to work
with the Art Ensemble, we would tour every year, and they still do. That one year I just
put aside the income from one European tour and invested it in this location here on Smith
Street, so that's how it got started. As a matter of fact, the music has always
contributed, because the financial aspect of the dojo and the temple isn't quite as
sufficient as it would be in a traditional setting. And it's a rare place in the United
States to have a non-Asian operating a Buddhist temple, or a (zendo).
Q: I've heard that the dojo itself is involved with music as part of its fund raising.
JJ: There are several members in the dojo, people who've been practicing for some time,
and people who haven't been practicing for some time! (laughs) Some happen to be
musicians. So the idea came up to have a dojo band, and we organized that, and one of the
students is the director, so I don't have to do everything, and generally twice a year we
have benefit concerts and non-benefit concerts, and we're trying to work the program so
that we can have even more concerts, concerts with dancers, concerts with poets, the whole
sort of shebang.
Q: You pointed out one teacher at the dojo who you said gave you a very important lesson
in music by teaching you how to breathe.
JJ: Yeah, Master Watazumi do. I went to Tokyo, Japan. Actually Wadada Leo Smith took me
there. He introduced me to Watazumi do and the first lesson that he gave me, gave us both,
was to breathe. But the breathing lesson was with an eight foot wooden staff, you know?
Having to develop flexibility in the body because the whole body has to breathe and it was
just amazing, an incredible lesson. It was also an introduction to a lot of the breathing
we do in the zendo, we do breathing exercises and stuff. It's really great because it
keeps the whole body functioning. Instead of just the lungs, you have to breathe
everywhere! (laughs)
Q: When I first walked into your dojo, I was kind of blown away to see a jazz legend
teaching a martial arts class. How does what you do at the dojo inform your musical ideas?
JJ: Well, actually, I don't consider myself a jazz legend or anything. In 1993, I retired
from the Art Ensemble of Chicago to devote myself full time to Buddhist studies and to the
practice of Aikido. It was not until 1996 that a friend of mine, Leroy Jenkins, called and
said 'I would like for you to participate in a concert that I'm doing'. So okay, I
accepted, and I realized while working for that concert that I'd been missing something
very important and vital to me, and that something was music. I hadn't been practicing or
playing or anything. But that had been a vital part of my life. So, immediately after
that, I got a commission to write a piece for chamber orchestra, and in working on the
material I discovered it was possible to incorporate the Buddhist teachings into the
music, so that's what I started to do. So all of the music had reference, or is inspired
by something of the dharma that I've come in contact with.
Q: Do you feel that leaving the Art Ensemble and putting music aside temporarily was
necessary?
JJ: Absolutely. It was a kind of a cleansing process. What happened was, a friend of mine
told me I had disappeared from the world, (laughs) and in reality, I had, because I was
devoting full time and energy to the dojo and I really had no awareness of what was
happening in the world. 'Cause that was the total universe to me. It still is the total
universe, except that I've added music back to it.
Q: How do you look back on that time you spent with the Art Ensemble, and how did it
inform the person that you are, the way you are now?
JJ: That was a wonderful time. It took me a long time to reach the decision to retire,
actually, from the Art Ensemble. But it seemed more important to me to share the vitality
of Aikido and the vitality of Zen training with people, even though it would be a smaller
number of people, it seemed to give them something that could last and improve their
lives. I mean, they could easily remember a song, or a performance, but to be able to
incorporate something into their lives that could be useful.... For example, breathing. A
gentleman came in today who had asthma, and I showed him an exercise, how to do, and he
was like, 'what!?' (laughs) You know, because in our society we're informed that it's
impossible to do anything but enroll at the hospital, or whatever.
But back to your question, it was a wonderful experience with the Art Ensemble, and I keep
in contact and sort of follow what's going on, but it was also very important to make this
step, you may say this leap of faith.
Q: Going way back, Chris Gaddy, Charles Clark, members of an early group of yours,
untimely passed away (Clarke in '69, Gaddy in '68). What made you decide to work with
Lester Bowie, Roscoe Mitchell and Malachi Favors (which would form the basis of the Art
Ensemble)?
JJ: Well, it was their invitation. When Christopher and Charles passed away, I was
completely depressed, I felt rejected and real down, and so Roscoe invited me because he
had this spirit of compassion, and we had gone to school together, were friends and
everything. So he got me to do a concert with them. And I enjoyed it, and they enjoyed it,
so they asked me to do another one. When we went to Europe in 1969, that is, Malachi,
Lester, Roscoe and I went to Paris in 69, we were being interviewed and when they said
what's the name of this group, we decided it should be the Art Ensemble of Chicago.
Q: What was the chemistry like with the other members of the group?
JJ: Well, remember that we were all members of the Association for the Advancement of
Creative Musicians. So we had developed a kind of bond that was spiritual as well as
political as well as financial, and through the auspices and the philosophy of the AACM,
we were able to manifest this Art Ensemble group, to share and do everything together, and
that was very unusual for a group to do. Until Muhal Richard Abrams and Phil Cohran
founded the AACM, we had never had that experience, except when were in Muhal's
Experimental Band, which was a band that didn't perform publicly. We just went into this
place to rehearse, take our music and that'd be it. After two or three years, we had to
perform 'cause the place that was allowing us to rehearse needed to know we were actually
doing something there! (laughs) That was the Abraham Lincoln Center on Chicago's South
Side. It was after that the AACM was founded, and it was based upon that experience that
we were able to generate what became known as the Art Ensemble.
Q: Another interesting part of the AEC was the ritualistic aspect, where face paint was
used, African drums, I read once you were naked to the waist with just your saxophone...
JJ: I wasn't naked to the waist, I was naked completely! (laughs) Actually, that aspect
was explained once as an expression of the various elements of man. For example, Lester
would wear a doctor's coat, the scientist, the experimenter. Roscoe was the businessman,
the gentleman. I was sort of the shamanistic image coming from various cultures, so was
Malachi and [AEC drummer Don] Moye. You know, face painting in non-Western cultures is a
sign of collectivism, is a sign of one representing the community, it's not unique at all.
But in our society, it's something unique. So what we were doing with that face painting
was representing everyone throughout the universe, and that was expressed in the music as
well. That's why the music was so interesting. It wasn't limited to Western instruments,
African instruments, or Asian instruments, or South American instruments, or anybody's
instruments. If we needed a sound [scratches his chair] we'd put a leather chair on stage
and scratch it, if that was the only way to get the sound.
Q: Speaking of the non-musical aspects of the AEC, I saw a performance you did last year
at Lotus Music & Dance Studios, where you worked with a poet and a dancer. It seems as
though multimedia has always been part of your tradition.
JJ: I've always been interested in blending all the elements, and people were saying it
was unique or unusual, and some even claimed I was the first quote -- unquote jazz
musician to incorporate what they now call "multimedia." We were doing
performance art as far back as 1965, just not calling it that. Actually, once I was
fortunate enough to go to Marrakesh, Morocco, and there at the King's palace were dancers,
musicians, poets, singers, all at once, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, having a
festival. But the important thing was, none of these people were professionals. They were
from all over the country, farmers, sheepherders! (laughs) From all over Morocco, they
came to Marrakesh. That gave me a kind of confirmation for my work. I've found also in
other cultures that all of these things are blended in together. Only here, because of the
illusion of intellectualism, our society separates the validity of human expression.
Q: You moved from Chicago to New York in 1982. did that change effect your life, your
outlook, your music?
JJ: Tremendously. 'Cause as you know, New York is about a million times faster than
Chicago. I was just fortunate that all my endeavors were consistent. I had more work here,
more opportunities here, basically that was it. Of course, I miss Chicago for its quietude
and gentleness. People still say hello to you when you pass them on the street. In New
York you say hello and people are like 'Whassup? What do you mean?' (laughs)
Q: You've recently done pieces for large ensembles that have so far gone unrecorded,
right?
JJ: Unfortunately, no one's been interested. I've made a few inquiries. The most recent
has been the Infinite Compassion, that might have been the most recent orchestral piece
I've done. It was '97, for voice and large ensemble. In fact, since no one's been
interested in my work, I took the responsibility recently to invest in my own work, so I'm
producing a concert that was done at the Vision Festival in May. I'm making a CD of that
concert because I want to share this with people and realized I had to make the investment
myself. Equal Interest [Jarman's group with violinist Leroy Jenkins and pianist Myra
Melford] has a recording coming out this year, but that's a multiple project. But this is
the first of my own individual work to come out in some time. No, I haven't had many great
recording situations, and I don't have the energy required to pursue it, 'cause in that
business, one must really get involved with the various producer's companies, you know,
write letters, send e-mails, visit offices. I don't have time to do all that, because I'm
committed to the dojo.
Q: Can you talk about the use of space in your music?
JJ: Well space, there's such an infinite variety. It can be concentrated and non-moving,
or sometimes its so fluid and rapid, you think it's still not moving at all! I was very
impressed with Anton Webern, this composer. I was very impressed with his view and concept
of time and space in music. Of course, there's been many others, but if I were asked for a
reference, that would be my primary one. Then of course, there's the whole
"jazz" lineage. I've been informed by both sides, jazz, western music, Asian
music, African music, all sides, because I've been interested in the sound of the
universe, and that sound is without limit. As a matter of fact, I bought a recording that
NASA recorded of sounds in space and when you turn it on, it sounds like anything else
you're hearing all the time. Hear that, that just went by? (Jarman imitates a passing car)
You hear that same sound on the space machine, and there's nothing out there except
infinite silence!
Q: I wanted to ask about two other reedists you've worked with, Roscoe Mitchell And
Anthony Braxton. Having worked with them a lot, how have they influenced your work, or
vice versa, considering your different styles?
JJ: That was the nice thing about working with them, was to focus on your own style rather
than becoming an imitator and trying to emulate them. Both of them are my very good
friends and in addition to playing music together, we just hang out. We also grew up
together. Lotta people don't realize when you grow up with people, you have an affinity, a
relationship you don't get with anyone else. After you're twenty years old, anyone you
meet after that, it's different from the people you knew before.
Q: I saw a great quote of yours, 'Anyone who deviates from Parker or Gillespie, they're
gonna have a hard time, they're gonna be discriminated against'. Do you see that as still
being true today?
JJ: ABSOLUTELY! I think it's clear, really. Unfortunately, its probably worse now than
whenever that was written. 'Cause the conservative revolution, I've only heard about.
People keep me informed, and I read the Internet news, stuff like that. People call to
keep me abreast of what's going on. It's probably worse today because of the popular
music, also because of the conservative traditional return in jazz. People doing the kind
of sound research that I'm interested in still have a difficult time.
Q: You were describing members of the Art Ensemble earlier and in talking about yourself,
you mentioned your interests were serialized. I wondered what you meant by that.
JJ: Well, you have to go see THE MATRIX. You know the movie? You saw it?
Q: Oh yeah.
JJ: Good, then you understand! (laughs)
Q: That everything is all an illusion?
JJ: Yeah, there you go. Perfect. See I say serialized because the approach to sound has
infinite capacity and possibility and we can get in a fixed place and not be able to move.
I've been fortunate in that I've been forced to move from zone to zone. For example, when
I went to Japan to study Buddhism, and to get my hair cut, or ordination. I like to call
it my haircut, other people say you must be formal and say "ordination." So,
when I went to get my ordination, I was introduced to a whole different view and concept
of music. I mean, the kind of music I would never hear here, would absolutely never hear
the wonderful, deep intensity of silence I was introduced to over in Japan. And Japanese
theater! Kabuki and No theater, all of that, just awesome. Which we could use and which we
do use, but because of the limits of our society's education culturally, there's still so
many problems. Even in Europe today, they look at America and say, 'America, ha ha, yeah
right! Well, you've got jazz, so what the hell?' (laughs) You know, you have jazz so you
don't have to worry about anything else. But we've got a great deal more than jazz, a
great deal more, but we're in many instances not allowed to investigate it, nor are we
informed about it. I like the title of your magazine, because it's like, it's in motion,
it's got something else going on.
Q: Did you at one time study or work with John Cage?
JJ: Yes, I worked with Master Cage. He was in Chicago, they used to have something called
the Once Festival, and they came to Chicago, and I followed them up to Ann Arbor, and
there was a student music society there, and I was invited to play with Mr. Cage on a
composition where he was doing all this electronic stuff. It was -- I forgot the name, and
I just saw it, just recently moved and unpacked and saw some information about it. But it
was his composition, he gave us an outline, and told us what we had to do to create the
music in the time and the space related to what he was doing. And it was great, we were
moving all around, just doing our thing while he controlled the acoustics.
Q: Did his philosophy continue to have bearing on your work?
JJ: Oh yeah, absolutely. Prior to that, I'd been reading his books, studying his music, in
fact I had everything that had ever been made by him. I was very impressed with his work,
and when I met him, it was even better. He was, like, cool! He wasn't like [affects
robotic voice] 'Yes -- I'm -- Cage -- you -- must -- o -- bey.' He was like, you know,
'how are ya?'
Q: What do you think of the next generation of musicians like Sabir Mateen, Raphe Malik,
and Matthew Shipp, somewhat younger musicians who are picking up some of the threads of
your own music?
JJ: Yeah, these guys are an inspiration, to see the tradition is still alive and doing
well, even though it still has very small outreach compared -- now, its a large outreach
on its own. The Vision Festival was packed every night, always has been for the four years
it's been happening. Matthew and all the other artists are wonderful musicians and its
great to see this happen. You know, Equal Interest played at the Bell Atlantic Jazz
Festival Awards and not one musician from that category was even thought of. Even thought
of! The idea, that here's this vital energy, and that element doesn't even know it exists!
Q: What are your future plans for the dojo? You said you were hoping to expand it?
JJ: Well, by the end of the millennium, five, six months from now, we hope to somehow
manage to move into a new location where we have the whole building, so we can devote
space to all our activities. For example, we can have one space devoted to martial art,
another to meditation, another to Buddhist practices, another to Tai Chi, Zen Therapy,
space just for that. As a matter of fact, we have a fund raising program, and its amazing,
we have about 28 - 30 thousand dollars donated by Japanese Americans in the bank, and we
have from our members and friends of the BBA, about maybe six thousand on this end and we
have so many promises, we feel fortunate we'll be able to make this move by the end of the
year.
Q: And what are your plans for Joseph Jarman?
JJ: (sings) As we float throughout the universe we go / Find the Buddha way and let your
sorrows go / As we float throughout the universe we go / Find the guru that will show you
how to glow / As we float throughout the universe we go / Let the visions of your human
heart show / As we float throughout the universe we go / See the light within you and your
love will grow / As we float throughout the universe we go / There is no sorrow that
cannot be cleared / There is no passion that cannot be seared... (I forgot the other two
lines!) Oh, there is no bondage that cannot be freed / there is no pain that we cannot let
go. La da da da da da da da da... that's the answer to that question! (laughs)
For 62 years, I feel like I'm sixteen. I said that in 1990 when I got my hair cut, that I
got a whole different perspective. We were sitting in the Higashi Honganji Honzon in
Kyoto, Japan, and it was February and it was cold and we were in this temple that didn't
have nothing! What are you talking about, lamps and heat? Are you kidding? They came and
everybody had their hair cut, right? They touched everybody on the head and do this thing.
And that actual touch, touched me. It was an energy field that not only changed my whole
consciousness, but my whole view of life, and I'm very grateful and thankful for that.
And as I said, I'm 62 years old now and I feel like I'm sixteen because I feel creative
and I feel the future holds a lot of wonderful stuff. Even if I were to space and take off
tomorrow, I'd still think it was an incredible past few minutes!