June 20, 1999
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(07:46:44) Appy says to Norm(RR): Oh ok, been real busy, trying to accomplish a lot of things before going on vacation in July
(07:47:08) Jan : the Second Agreement - Don't take anything personally.
(07:47:32) Ken says to Appy: hmmmm,,, what's a vacation??? lol
(07:47:39) Jan : Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
(07:47:45) Norm(RR) says to Appy: ahhh......vacation....I have heard of that...I will have to find out more about that sometime...*chuckle*
(07:48:03) Appy says to Jan: Can not take things personally but sometimes it helps to get pissed *G*
(07:48:34) Appy says to Ken: *L*
(07:48:41) Jan says to Appy: I know that happens to everybody... but according to the author it doesn't actually help
(07:48:44) Norm(RR) says to Appy: *LOL*....that does happen....
(07:49:07) Appy says to Jan: That is very Taoist
(07:49:26) Jan says to Appy: also very Toltec ... hehe
(07:50:04) Jan says to Appy: When we take things personally it is because on some level we are in agreement with whatever was said. We are then trapped in "personal importance" - which Ruiz refers to as the maximum expression of selfishness... "everything is about ME."
(07:50:08) Appy says to Jan: probably not and I tend not to care what other people think, but actions I tend to defend myself
(07:50:14) 'Carol' : Enters the Reading Area...
(07:50:40) Norm(RR) says to Jan: of course, it is not possible to be completely immune from the actions of others...
(07:50:45) 'Carol' : overslept, sorry I'm late
(07:50:49) Jan : good morning, Carol...
(07:51:28) Norm(RR) says to Carol: Good Morning...*s*..
(07:51:42) 'Carol' : good morning, everybody...
(07:51:43) Ken says to Jan: I like his "You have to trust yourself and choose to believe or not believe what someone says to you," Again life is about my choices for me,,, I think that is what he is saying,,, and I can choose to listen to other's comments or not,,, My choices are about me,,, and others comments are about them,,,, their perception of the particular event,,,
(07:51:51) Jan : When we take things personally and feel offended, we have the tendency to want to defend ourselves ...thereby creating conflicts.
(07:52:14) Appy says to Jan: Did you see HolyMan yet? In the movie there was this woman slandering him saying he was the father of her children and how he ran off and left them (which was all a lie) The HolyMan "G" was just smiling and ran to meet them because he was happy to see them
(07:52:36) Jan says to Ken: yeah... I like it too
(07:52:38) Ken says to Carol: Good morning sleeping beauty ,,,,lol
(07:53:20) Jan says to Appy: no... still haven't seen that... sounds like I should
(07:53:21) Appy says to Carol: Good morning
(07:54:18) Jan says to Appy: When someone says something that hurts, it is not what is being said that hurts it is that we have wounds that are being touched by the words we hear. We are hurting ourselves.
(07:54:21) Appy says to Jan: It gives perfect examples of this subject. How to be truly selfless which is what this is about
(07:55:01) 'Carol' says to Ken: hehe...
(07:55:11) Ken says to Appy: hmmmm ,,,selfless ,,,not sure humans are capable of that,,,
(07:55:37) Jan : The way each of us sees the world is according to the agreements we have made. Our point of view is something personal to us. It is not one else's truth.
(07:55:56) 'Carol' : didn't wan to interrupt the flow of discussion.. I really enjoyed this chapter! listening...
(07:55:57) Ken says to Appy: Not sure it is "mentally healthy either",,, depending on ones definition of "selfless".
(07:55:57) Appy says to Jan: words don't bother me, I learned a long time ago not to worry or care what others think
(07:56:05) Norm(RR) says to Ken: I agree, not in their own power, humans are not capable of that ...
(07:56:07) Jan : oops... no one else's truth
(07:57:00) Appy says to Ken: it is not easy especially in this world
(07:57:43) Jan says to Appy: it seems to me that "personally responsible" is a more accurate term...
(07:58:17) Ken : I've always been excited with Jesus words about "Loving others as you love yourself" ,,,,If I can treat other's as I like to be treated ,,,that seems to work most of the time,,, and usually when it doesn't, it's because of a misunderstanding of the other's perception,,,, or my perception,,, of what was needed,,,,
(07:58:49) Norm(RR) says to Ken: excellent point....*s*
(07:58:57) Appy says to Ken: It is more a losing of the ego, being egoless. Search for solutions for everyone not just yourself. "When a truly great man does something, the people say we did it!" to quote a Taoist passage
(07:59:08) Jan : The author says that if I am angry with you, I am really dealing with myself. You are merely the excuse for me to get angry and that anger is an expression of fear.
(07:59:33) Ken says to Appy: I agree with that totally,,,,
(08:00:25) Jan : As we make a habit of not taking anything personally, we won't need to place our trust in what others say or do. We will only need to trust ourselves to make responsible choices.
(08:00:40) Norm(RR) says to Jan: that statement may be accurate in many, many cases...but is not always the case...
(08:01:08) Jan says to Norm(RR): which one? about fear??
(08:01:22) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes...**s**
(08:02:23) Jan says to Norm(RR): I think anger is a fear based emotion... it's certainly not love based
(08:02:31) Ken says to Jan: I think the habit of not taking it personal is a part of coming to the realization that "equality" is the mission ,,,rather than "me first",,,,
(08:03:20) Jan says to Ken: can you explain that please?
(08:03:49) Norm(RR) says to Jan: WSS
(08:04:08) Norm(RR) says to Jan: WSS...=...Who Says So....
(08:04:20) Appy says to Ken: it takes a lot of daring not to be ahead of others. If you don't compete, then no one can compete against you
(08:04:25) Ken says to Jan: hmmm ,,,not sure about that "anger" being fear based ,,,Jesus got angry and chased the money changers out,,,,, I think that was about his anger ,,,,and I believe his anger was based on his concern about "people" and "God" and other's misusing their "power".
(08:05:17) Jan says to Norm(RR): it's coming from me... and my theory of only two real emotions... based on what I've read... that everything boils down to fear or love...
(08:05:40) Ken says to Appy: I agree ,,,,I think in the book that is addressed in the attitude of doing one's best,,,, not someone else's best,,, when we attempt to do someone else's best ,,,we lose out,,,,
(08:05:43) Norm(RR) says to Jan: anger is NOT always fear based...and it IS at times love based...*s*
(08:05:53) Jan says to Ken: based on concern... sounds a little like fear to me...
(08:06:58) Appy says to Ken: yes na that is what the boss expects though, he wants you to do his best even though many times it is the boss' own delusion *LOL*
(08:06:58) Norm(RR) says to Jan: concern and fear are not the same emotion ..not at all...*s*
(08:07:15) Ken says to Jan: I think "anger" is an emotion, and what we do with it determines it's base,,, could be either,, fear or motivation,,,,
(08:07:56) Ken says to Appy: YEP!!!! However, in reality,,,, I'm my own boss,,,, *s*
(08:08:10) Appy says to Ken: Lucky *L*
(08:08:52) Ken says to Appy: It's only a matter of attitude,, ,for I too draw a paycheck ,,,hehehe
(08:09:15) Norm(RR) says to Jan: actually, concern for others is love based....*s* ....really it is....if the concern is genuine...
(08:09:33) Jan says to Norm(RR): I agree that they are not the same... but feel they are both fear based
(08:10:08) 'Carol' : mm attitude...attitude plays a large role so many things.. how I 'feel' about myself, how I 'react' to others...and agree.. "own boss", Only I can change MY attitude, and therefore my feeling, or fear,
(08:10:09) Ken says to Norm(RR): I believe that is true,,,, concern is perhaps a first step in solving problems,,,
(08:10:59) Jan says to Norm(RR): I can see that position... but if we truly trust there is no need for concern
(08:11:18) Norm(RR) says to Jan: trust what?...or whom????
(08:11:30) Ken : My experience is that people don't change until they are uncomfortable about something,,,and the being uncomfortable appears to come from being concerned,,,
(08:11:39) ~*M@D M@X*~ : Enters the Reading Area...
(08:11:56) Ken : Hi Max,,,
(08:11:59) Jan says to Norm(RR): trust that others are responsible for their choices and trust the universe is operating in divine order
(08:12:42) ~*M@D M@X*~ says to Ken: hello
(08:12:46) Ken says to Jan: Perhaps a definition of "concern" is needed here .. for me it is an awareness,,,
(08:13:19) Norm(RR) says to Jan: universe operating in divine order...*s* ...and who sees that operation?
(08:13:37) Ken says to Jan: And, that awareness may be about either a positive or negative state,,,
(08:14:00) Jan says to Norm(RR): I can see it
(08:14:30) Ken says to Jan: And, a negative or positive state may be the stimulant for change,,, depending on my perception of the need,,,
(08:15:40) Jan says to Ken: I have concerns too... and when I perceive something as being within my circle of influence I try to do something about those concerns... but in reality, I think concern is a waste of energy... action is what counts
(08:16:04) Norm(RR) says to Jan: excuse me...sorry...I did not state that question properly
(08:16:24) ~*M@D M@X*~ says to Ken: what are you all talking about today??
(08:16:48) Ken says to Jan: The fourth agreement says that too,,,action is the "change" agent,,,,however, I'm not sure we act without an awareness of the need for action,,,,
(08:17:12) Jan says to Ken: I agree...
(08:17:30) Jan says to Ken: but we can only change ourselves...
(08:17:34) Norm(RR) says to Jan: It was to be.." who sees to the operation of the universe...in other words...who is responsible for the divine order in the operation of the universe?
(08:17:35) Ken says to ~*M@D M@X*~: We're discussing the second agreement in the book ,,,,"Don't take things Personally".
(08:18:01) ~*M@D M@X*~ says to Ken: ok...
(08:18:08) Ken says to Jan: I definitely agree with that,,,
(08:18:37) Jan says to Norm(RR): oh.. better question... hehehe... I think that falls into God's hands
(08:18:46) Norm(RR) says to ~*M@D M@X*~: Welcome Back...*s*
(08:18:58) Ken says to Jan: ahhh,,, it's all God's fault ,,, lol
(08:19:38) Norm(RR) says to Jan: so do I...*s* ..ergo....the ultimate trust must be placed in God....
(08:19:46) Jan says to Ken: you don't really think that's what I meant , do you?
(08:19:50) Ken says to Jan: If your in charge of the order,,, you must fill it,, hehee,,, Mcdonald 101..... hehehe
(08:20:15) Ken says to Jan: Naw,,, don't take it personal ,,,lol
(08:20:52) Jan says to Ken: never... hahaha
(08:20:59) Appy : gotta go, bye everyone
(08:21:03) Ken says to Jan: That was suppose to be "McDonald's" ya know, the golden arches fella ,,,hehe
(08:21:11) Jan : "You are never responsible for the actions of others. You are only responsible for you." When we truly understand this we cannot possibly be hurt by the careless words or actions of others.
(08:21:26) Jan says to Appy: bye
(08:21:27) Ken says to Appy: Bye Appy,, have a good week,,,
(08:21:44) Appy : Leaves...
(08:21:47) Norm(RR) says to Appy: have a good week...*s*
(08:22:04) Ken says to Jan: Well, I can't be hurt,,, but can't I *pout* just a bit,,, smile
(08:22:49) Jan says to Ken: I think most of us do that... I'd like to be free from it... Ruiz makes some very good points
(08:22:55) ~*M@D M@X*~ says to Jan: if someone said something to you that was personal stuff ... what other way is there to take it than personally?
(08:23:17) Jan says to Ken: oh BTW... are you aware of who Don Miguel Ruiz is?
(08:23:27) Norm(RR) says to Jan: hmm...I cannot be hurt by the actions of others......*s* ....depends, perhaps, on what those actions might be.,...*s*
(08:24:03) Ken says to Jan: Oh,,, I think his points are right on target,,,they surely have me doing a lot of thinking ,,,and you know what,,, his comments have helped me like "me" even more ,,,smile
(08:24:33) Ken says to Jan: Although, my former wife said I never had a problem with liking myself,,,lol
(08:24:41) Jan says to Ken: he was Susan Gregg's teacher...
(08:25:03) 'Carol' says to Jan: I didn't realize that...he's the one she talks of in her book?
(08:25:36) Jan says to Carol: yes...
(08:25:40) Ken says to Jan: My understanding of who he is is from the book,, in my thinking he's a "shaman" from Mexico,,, that's what my memory seems to bring up,,,
(08:26:22) Jan says to Ken: he is Miguel... her teacher from the Dance of Power.. (i think that's the name of that book)
(08:26:48) Ken says to Jan: Oh,,,,that makes sense,,,
(08:29:33) ~*M@D M@X*~ says to Norm(RR): are you saying she never had them??
(08:30:58) Norm(RR) says to ~*M@D M@X*~: naww...she has always had them.....and always will...*s*
(08:31:10) Ken says to Jan: Well, my clock says our time is up ,,,,good work with he discussion Jan ,,,I'm looking forward to the discussion on the next two agreements ,,,it's been a good reading ,,and the discussions are really helpful with the understanding, ,,for me at least,,,
(08:31:19) ~*M@D M@X*~ says to Norm(RR): hehehe.. I know what ya meant..
(08:32:09) Jan says to Ken: for me too...
(08:32:52) 'Carol' : me too! Hate that I was late, I really am enjoying this reading .
(08:34:36) 'Carol' : This chapter, reinforced for me, what I 'knew', about 'attitude '..the way 'I see things'...about myself, others, the world.. and how I react to others, 'take it personally', or 'see that it's their perception' ..tall order to always remember though
(08:34:50) Norm(RR) : I really have to leave now...have a good week, ALL...*s*
(08:34:57) Jan : thought Ruiz made an interesting point about the fact that we shouldn't take compliments any more personally than criticism
(08:35:29) Jan says to Norm(RR): have a good day.. seeya... *hug*
(08:35:42) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): thanks Norm...*hugs*.. have a great day!
(08:35:43) Ken says to Jan: yep,, caught that too,,,
(08:35:46) Norm(RR) : see you good people later.....Bye
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