June 27, 1999
The Third Agreement: Don't Assume Anything
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(07:26:24) 'Carol' : hail, hail...and welcome!!
(07:26:49) Jan : hi
(07:26:59) 'Carol' : hehe cannot see my posts..gunna have to reload
(07:27:25) Norm(RR) says to Carol: OK...
(07:27:28) Jan : before I forget, I need to mention that I will be out of town next weekend...
(07:27:32) 'Carol' : ta da..*sighs*.. now I can see..Good morning everybody!
(07:27:43) 'Carol' : me too Jan...going to Indy
(07:28:06) Norm(RR) says to Jan: come to think of it....I will too
(07:28:15) Jan : I may or may not be able to get online Sunday morning... so maybe we should postpone the fourth agreement til the following week
(07:28:43) Jan : well...that sorta settles it... we'll all be away...
(07:28:43) Norm(RR) : no wait...that is the following week...July 11....I will probably not be here...
(07:28:52) 'Carol' says to Jan: sounds great to me...I wasn't sure of computer access either, and didn't want to miss forth agreement
(07:29:20) Norm(RR) : but..well,, we should postpone until the 11 of July then...*s*
(07:29:47) Jan says to Norm(RR): don't want you to miss that either
(07:30:19) Norm(RR) : well...the 11 of July is not set in stone....*s*
(07:31:05) Norm(RR) : I am not sure about that morning...I may not be here..but that is not for sure
(07:31:20) Jan says to Norm(RR): I guess we can play it by ear...
(07:31:27) Norm(RR) : yep...*s*
(07:31:47) Jan says to Norm(RR): those of us who are here are not allowed to gossip about those who are not... hehehehe
(07:31:59) Norm(RR) : except that my ears have a hard time reaching the keyboard...LOL
(07:32:20) 'Carol' chuckles quietly at Norm(RR): lol
(07:33:02) Norm(RR) says to Carol: so Ken will not make it in this morning..?
(07:33:15) 'Carol' : *wondering where that expression came from* Play it by ear, my grandmother could 'play piano by ear' hehe
(07:33:40) Jan says to Carol: I think it's a musical reference
(07:33:47) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): doesn't look like it, has had a full weekend so far...
(07:34:02) Norm(RR) : *s*..probably
(07:34:14) 'Carol' says to Jan: oh, I know what it 'means'...listen and then repeat a song..just wonder how the expression was created
(07:34:31) Jan says to Carol: meaning we don't need the music or a plan... just go with the flow
(07:34:55) Norm(RR) : adapt to existing conditions...*s*
(07:35:06) Jan says to Carol: I guess it keeps us from being disappointed
(07:35:20) 'Carol' says to Jan: right.. so..we'll not meet this week, and see what developes the following...sorry to make such a big deal out of it...
(07:36:00) Jan says to Carol: what do you say we get here if we can? but don't worry to much if we can't?
(07:36:06) Norm(RR) says to Carol: *s*.....but is fun making big deals....LOL
(07:36:16) 'Carol' says to Jan: humm.. yep, not 'assuming', helps us from being disappointed too...good 'segway' to todays subject?
(07:36:48) 'Carol' says to Jan: deal
(07:36:51) Jan says to Carol: yeah... LOL
(07:37:10) Norm(RR) says to Jan: lead on, fearless leader....*s*
(07:37:34) Jan : The Third Agreement-Don't Make Assumptions
(07:37:57) Jan : Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement you can completely transform your life.
(07:38:06) Norm(RR) says to Jan: ahh..*s*...good advice
(07:38:33) Jan : We often make assumptions about what others are doing or thinking, we take it personally, and then we blame them.
(07:39:08) Jan : I guess we can see where this is beginning to tie into the first two agreements in
(07:39:18) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes..it is VERY important to make the effort to fully communicate...
(07:39:41) Jan : Ruiz states that "all the sadness and drama you have lived in the past was rooted in making assumptions and taking them personally". " The whole world of control between humans is about making assumptions and taking them personally." Any comments?
(07:40:36) Jan : I'm not sure I agree 100% with that statement
(07:40:46) 'Carol' says to Jan: just that is makes good sense..I am also struggling with a thought, about 'making assumptions/judgments' on past experiences....thinking..
(07:41:03) Norm(RR) says to Jan: well...much of the sadness etc. yes...but not quite all....
(07:41:30) Jan says to Norm(RR): I find that easier to accept...
(07:41:53) 'Carol' says to Jan: also thinking, that some assumptions are correct...and it's difficult to 'not take others actions/thoughts personally'...
(07:42:54) Jan says to Carol: it seems that the point is that we should communicate rather than assume we KNOW
(07:42:56) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): good point, smile.....not quite all cause of sadness..
(07:43:26) 'Carol' says to Jan: yes.. and then..we need to 'assume' that we are being answered truthfully, smile
(07:43:28) Norm(RR) says to Carol: especially when those actions are directed toward you
(07:43:45) Jan says to Carol: was trying to think of an example of a time when sadness occurred that was not rooted in assumed expectation.... can't come up with one
(07:43:59) Appy : enters the Reading Area
(07:44:20) Norm(RR) : Good morning, Appy..*s*
(07:44:26) Jan : good morning appy
(07:44:54) Jan says to Appy: tried to rent that movie last night...they didn't have it
(07:45:15) Appy : Good morning had trouble finding ya all there *L* I think I got lost *G*
(07:45:40) Appy says to Jan: Oh darn! well keep trying *S*
(07:45:51) Norm(RR) says to Jan: unexpected death of a loved one
(07:45:55) 'Carol' : good morning Appy
(07:46:03) Jan says to Appy: I will... we're discussing the 3rd agreement... don't make assumptions...
(07:46:18) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): I was thinking of that Norm, thought,,,expectation was, that they wouldn't die...
(07:46:51) Jan says to Norm(RR): I supposed that's an example... but can't we assume that everyone is going to die?
(07:47:02) Appy says to Jan: never ass.u.me, or you make an ass out of u and me *G*
(07:47:07) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): expectation..assumption...assumed we'd not have to face the loss..yet...*shruggs* fine lines here
(07:47:22) Norm(RR) says to Appy: LOL
(07:47:30) Jan says to Appy: hehehe.... good one
(07:47:57) Appy : *G*
(07:48:04) 'Carol' says to Appy: *smile*..first time I heard that was from accounting professor..helped me learn how to spell the word at least LOL
(07:48:31) Jan : Humans have a need to justify, explain and understand everything in order to feel safe. We have many questions because there are so many things that our reasoning minds cannot explain. It is not important that the answer is correct, just that the answer ma
(07:48:34) Appy says to Carol: it is the first thing they teach us in the sciences *L*
(07:49:00) Jan : just that the answer makes us feel safe.. This is why we make assumptions.
(07:49:12) Appy says to Jan: macs *L* snip snip *G*
(07:49:31) 'Carol' says to Appy: :-P
(07:49:49) Jan says to Appy: usually it helps me be more concise
(07:49:53) Norm(RR) : it seems to me, from the comments made here in these discussions, that the author is using the concepts and terms "never" and "always" in ways that are not warranted..
(07:50:30) Jan says to Norm(RR): I agree with you... never and always are rarely accurate
(07:50:44) 'Carol' says to Jan: that sounds reasonable...feel 'secure', and 'safe' when we 'think' we know the correct answers....guess a lot has to do with 'acceptance' too..
(07:51:08) Appy : never say never and never say always, another thing we are taught in the sciences
(07:51:13) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): agree.. "never" and "always" are absolutes...
(07:51:31) Jan says to Carol: We make assumptions because we don't have the courage to ask questions. Asking questions keeps us from making assumptions... make sure communication is clear.
(07:52:06) Jan : Once you hear the answer you will not have to make assumptions because you will know the truth.
(07:52:33) Jan : not sure that's always true... but would be nice if it were
(07:52:44) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): I do like what the author says though, the "What will really make the difference is action"....SOME things can be clarified with open communications..asking questions, and communicating our wants...
(07:53:20) Norm(RR) : it is important, nevertheless, to communicate....ask the necessary and proper questions....and test all assumptions and hypothesis,,,
(07:53:30) 'Carol' says to Jan: agreed.. hehe again...we 'assume' that what we hear is either true or false
(07:53:46) Jan : We must ask for what we want. When we stop making assumptions communications becomes clean and clear, we free ourselves of emotional poison and our word becomes impeccable.
(07:53:55) 'Carol' : *recognizes she has a 'trust' issue*
(07:54:16) Jan says to Carol: I don't think you're alone...
(07:54:27) Norm(RR) says to Carol: ?..trust issue..?
(07:54:47) 'Carol' says to Jan: now that statement is easier, to me, then the clarifying....but, first we gotta figure out what we really want...
(07:54:48) Appy says to Carol: trust is a very difficult thing
(07:55:08) Jan says to Carol: what do you suppose is at the root of trust issues?
(07:55:40) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): trust, that others are impeccable with their word....
(07:55:45) Jan says to Carol: if we ask for what we want , we don't have to assume that others know what we want
(07:55:58) Norm(RR) says to Carol: O...I see..
(07:56:58) Jan says to Carol: I think disappointment is at the root of trust issues... we assumed one thing, and another thing was true?
(07:57:00) 'Carol' says to Jan: again. past issues...hard to trust, when we've 'felt' betrayed or hurt in the past..again though, "Don't take things personally"...was it 'done to' me, or my perception of the circumstance..hehe arg.. yep, all 4 do tie together
(07:57:18) Norm(RR) says to Carol: so the question is then...i..........s there any one at all whose word is impeccable?
(07:57:42) Appy says to Carol: everyone wants to be trusted, but so many are untrustworthy, how do you know whom to trust and who not to? If you trust unwisely then you are gullible, how do you trust and not be gullible? How do you know which is which
(07:58:14) 'Carol' says to Appy: good question...got an answer?
(07:58:36) Jan says to Appy: I think we can trust our own instincts on that one... we know on some level when we're being lied to
(07:58:55) Appy says to Carol: nope I am bad at it too
(07:59:27) Norm(RR) says to Appy: good point.....everybody wants to be trusted....but does everyone wish to be trust worthy?
(07:59:35) Jan says to Appy: I think it depends on what we're being asked to believe... some things we want to hear and so we choose to believe them...
(07:59:53) Appy says to Jan: yeah but how do you know if it is not past experiences that are making you suspicious or that there is really good reason to suspect?
(08:00:00) 'Carol' : mmmmm We tend to make the assumption that everyone sees life the way we do too....part of what messes us up, I think...
(08:00:15) Jan says to Norm(RR): that's an interesting point... can you explain the difference?
(08:00:33) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes Jan....we many times like to have "our ears tickles"...*s*
(08:00:48) Appy says to Norm(RR): everyone wants to be trusted, even those who are not trustworthy, it is weird
(08:01:58) Appy says to Jan: yes that is true, so how do you know if you are not just wanting something and making yourself blind?
(08:02:30) Jan : in relationships, we sometimes see what we want to see and deny those things that we don't like...
(08:02:55) Jan : in essence that is "lying to ourselves"
(08:03:11) Norm(RR) says to Jan: well....all want to be trusted....but for what reasons...think of the con games....etc.....there has to be a desire in humans to BE trustworthy before there is any chance of being impeccable in word...
(08:03:35) Appy says to Jan: yet we need to see the truth instead of prolonging the inevitable
(08:03:44) Jan says to Norm(RR): I agree.. any idea how we can tell the difference?
(08:04:47) Jan says to Appy: yep... what makes us cling to that ?
(08:05:29) Appy says to Jan: I wish I knew, I keep getting burned over and over again. been the story of my life
(08:06:33) Jan : what's the answer? if we are impeccable with our word, we still can't assume that everyone else is
(08:07:11) Norm(RR) says to Jan: telling the difference....well........I am thinking of a bank teller.....the better we know the REAL....the easier it is to spot the conterfiet...
(08:07:19) 'Carol' : well.. Ruiz says: "Taking action over and over again strengthens your will, nurtures the seed, and establishes a solid foundation for the new habit to grow" (habit of asking for clarification, and making needs known)..maybe.. we can add..(cont)
(08:07:27) Appy says to Jan: and we can not distrust everyone either
(08:07:34) Jan : I think the trust has to be placed in ourselves... trust ourselves to recognize the subtle things we tend to overlook
(08:07:46) 'Carol' : trust, what we hear, or continue to ask questions for clarification, until we find 'truth'?
(08:08:41) Jan says to Carol: or until we feel comfortable with our reaction to what we're hearing
(08:09:03) Norm(RR) says to Jan: *chuckle*...how is this for a motto......"never believe anything you hear and only half of what you see".?.....*chuckle*
(08:09:14) 'Carol' : I think the bottom line for this agreement, is to recognize when we are making assumptions, taking things personally, and not making our needs known...recognition is the first step
(08:09:21) Appy says to Jan: Trust ourselves to recognize the subtle points of untrustqworthyness and trust ourselves to take the appropriate path and trust ourselves to accept that life without
(08:09:33) Jan says to Norm(RR): that's true... and how do we get more familiar with the REAL?
(08:11:04) Jan says to Appy: without what??????
(08:11:12) Norm(RR) says to Jan: well...first, it necessary to decide if there is any REAL at all
(08:11:43) Appy says to Jan: whatever it is that you lose by stopping the trust in that particular person
(08:11:43) Norm(RR) says to Jan: if there is any REAL at all, then what is its nature...*s*
(08:12:14) Jan says to Norm(RR): there are people I trust completely...and others whom I doubt...what's the difference? is it in the things I'm being asked to believe???
(08:12:37) Norm(RR) says to Jan: of course, I am speaking of the possibility of an ultimate REAL that can be known and relied upon..*s*
(08:13:33) Jan says to Appy: what have we lost when we stop trusting an untrustworthy person????
(08:13:58) Norm(RR) says to Jan: perhaps...*s*...but it is also possible that those whom you trust are more trustworthy from your viewpoint
(08:14:01) Appy says to Jan: time and effort
(08:15:20) Jan says to Appy: maybe it's better to look upon that as time and effort invested in learning more about ourselves... and trusting our own feelings...
(08:15:34) 'Carol' : *thinking* REAL is another of those four letter words like LOVE...very difficult to define
(08:16:07) Norm(RR) says to Jan: that is hard to say....it could be either....probably in their behavior...but that is a case by case situation to analyze..*s*
(08:16:19) Jan : real= Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence
(08:16:31) Appy says to Jan: that is the trouble I think, I am beginning to not trust my own feelings, at least in certain areas
(08:16:46) 'Carol' : Ruiz defines 'REAL LOVE" as accepting other people the way they are without trying to change them......
(08:17:23) Norm(RR) says to Carol: Ruiz is wrong
(08:17:35) Jan says to Appy: does that involve making assumptions about yourself?
(08:18:07) Appy says to Jan: in an indirect way
(08:18:09) Jan : listening to what norm is gonna say next
(08:18:23) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): *g*.wrong huh? oh, I don't think it's loving to try to 'change' a person,
(08:19:32) Jan : there are 10 definitions for the word "real"... which one should be consider the 'real' one?
(08:19:33) Norm(RR) says to Carol: define 'change a person'
(08:20:19) Norm(RR) says to Jan: you love Danny...*s*....correct?
(08:20:29) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): k..'change a person'...manipulate their personality, or attempt to, to try to 'make them' think like you do, see the world the way you do....(?maybe)
(08:20:37) Jan says to Norm(RR): without a doubt
(08:20:54) Appy says to Carol: the only way to change a person successfully is by example otherwise attempted change is met with hostility
(08:20:56) Jan says to Norm(RR): and I see your point
(08:21:50) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): ok.. see your point coming...we 'mold' our children, or people we are in relationship with..but ultimately, acceptance of differences is, I think, real love...when we cannot agree, but 'accept' in spite of it..(not sure I didn't waver from subject some)
(08:21:50) Jan says to Norm(RR): I'm constantly teaching him and imposing change on him... to help him change, grow into a strong, responsible and loving adult
(08:22:02) Norm(RR) says to Jan: of course...and you are presently doing proper and necessary things to improve a situation regarding his reading....
(08:22:27) 'Carol' says to Appy: right.. cannot 'change a person', only they can change themselves..first, they have to have the need to want to change
(08:23:05) Appy says to Carol: yep
(08:23:11) Jan says to Norm(RR): yes... you're right... and yet I see Ruiz's point too... what's the difference here? is it because we're dealing with children and he's referring to adults?
(08:23:23) Norm(RR) : however...it is true that we do not 'change the person'...the person changes him/herself as result of efforts made on his/her behalf
(08:24:04) Appy says to Norm(RR): yes
(08:24:07) Jan says to Norm(RR): yes... I just have to make Danny WANT to change... I have to show him ways that his life is more fun when he can read...
(08:24:19) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): and if they don't change..if they don't 'meet our expectations'..then it is our choice..to accept them as they are, love them, or say.....ba bye...(according to Ruiz)
(08:24:30) Jan says to Norm(RR): is that motivating or is that manipulating?
(08:25:07) Norm(RR) says to Jan: motivating
(08:25:34) Jan says to Norm(RR): when does it become manipulating? does that have to do with intent?
(08:26:07) 'Carol' : or as Appy says....'showing by example'...by making your needs known, that you would like for Danny to discover the world thru reading..your helping meet YOUR expectations for him??
(08:26:10) Jan says to Norm(RR): it's motivation when I want something for him...and manipulation when I want something for me?
(08:26:16) Norm(RR) says to Jan: if I manipulate a person...I do so for entirely selfish reasons on my part
(08:27:36) Jan says to Norm(RR): btw... computer games are motivating him very nicely these days... hehehe.... and his last report card grade in reading this year was "excellent"....
(08:28:03) Norm(RR) says to Jan: and those selfish intents do not care what the consequences are to the person being manipulated
(08:28:41) Norm(RR) says to Jan: that is GREAT...an excellent report...*s*
(08:28:44) Jan says to Norm(RR): manipulation is a pretty insidious thing isn't it?
(08:29:12) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): *playing devils advocate here*..don't we often think however, that our 'manipulation' for our own selfish intent, is also good for the other too though? when we 'assume' we know what is best for them?
(08:29:20) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes..it is
(08:29:35) Jan says to Norm(RR): I'm still sending him to that summer reading reinforcement program.. starts tomorrow... early mornings again....
(08:30:27) Jan says to Carol: if your intent is for YOU it has nothing to do with what you think is best for them...
(08:31:15) Norm(RR) says to Carol: not really...those 2 motives are, for the most part, mutually exclusive...*s*
(08:31:39) Jan says to Carol: I want Danny to be a good reader because he'll do better in every aspect of life... but if my intent was only for him to be able to make grocery lists for me... that would be manipulation
(08:31:58) Norm(RR) says to Jan: *s*...no more sleeping in...*s*....see...you are making the sacrifice
(08:32:10) 'Carol' says to Jan: mmm, I spose....still assume that it's human nature though, for us to think the other will benefit from what 'we' think is best...*shruggs*..wow.. heavy subject here
(08:33:23) Jan says to Norm(RR): it's only for 4 weeks... and only 4 days a week.. I can do this... I can do this.... I think I can, I think I can...
(08:33:33) Norm(RR) says to Carol: to REALLY help someone who needs help in some area almost always involves a sacrifice on the part of the one who is helping...
(08:33:36) 'Carol' says to Jan: oh, I was talking beyond Danny now...I definitely agree with the 'motivation' of molding our children....still though, if Danny resisted, or failed to meet your expectations, think you'd love him anyway..pointing out Ruiz's definition of 'real love'
(08:34:07) Jan says to Carol: I agree, we often think we know what's best for another person... and I wonder when that's ok to do, and when it's not ok to do?
(08:34:54) Jan says to Carol: yeah...I'd love him if he never read a single word... and I'd be there to read to him...
(08:36:00) 'Carol' says to Jan: guess it's ok to think we know what is best..but bottom line is...accept that they may think differently, and accept the difference of opinions..this agreement is....don't assume anything...our assuming we know best, is an assumption arrrrggg hehehehe
(08:36:02) Norm(RR) says to Carol: the issue is not 'meeting our expectations'....that is not it at all
(08:37:01) Jan says to Carol: yep...good point... there just might be someone who knows better than all of us... a more divine plan... hehehe
(08:37:25) 'Carol' says to Jan: *winks*
(08:37:54) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yep...*s*...there sure is..
(08:38:02) Jan says to Carol: we could do 3 hours on expectations alone.... that would be a good topic for those who are able to be here next week...
(08:38:13) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): sorry.. lost me...not meeting our expectations...not sure what that was in response to
(08:38:26) Appy : well I am going to have to go, interesting topic, has put me into some reevaluating myself
(08:38:44) Jan says to Appy: btw... some of us will be out of town next week...
(08:39:00) 'Carol' says to Appy: glad you were here! Thanks, have a good week, Jan and I won't be here next week, dunno what to expect..
(08:39:03) Jan says to Appy: glad you could be here....
(08:39:18) Norm(RR) says to Carol: sorry.....it was post (08:33:36) 'Carol' says to Jan: oh,
(08:39:21) Appy says to Jan: Ok I will be out of town from the 5th to the 18th, see ya then
(08:39:42) Jan says to Appy: have a safe and happy trip
(08:39:57) Norm(RR) says to Appy: see you later...*s*...
(08:40:09) Norm(RR) says to Appy: have a good trip
(08:40:19) Appy : Leaves...
(08:40:26) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): whispers: I’m not talking 'divine love'...talking Ruiz definition of real love="accepting other people the way they are without trying to change them"
(08:41:25) Jan says to Carol: I can agree with what Ruiz says about accepting people the way they are, without trying to change them... but I'm not sure that I agree that's the only definition of real love
(08:41:53) Jan says to Carol: I think thats the definition of real friendship
(08:42:19) Norm(RR) says to Carol: *s*...I know....but the only real love has to be a fruit and out growth of divine love....
(08:42:45) 'Carol' says to Jan: I think I agree with you....think 'judgment' comes into play here too...arrg.. we often 'judge' others ..God loves us as we are, without judging....
(08:43:27) Norm(RR) says to Carol: yes...but He does discipline and correct...*s*
(08:43:29) Jan says to Carol: when we judge, isn't that related to not accepting?
(08:44:15) Norm(RR) : It is past time for me to leave...*s*
(08:44:25) Jan says to Carol: who would have thought we'd get this much discussion on that tiny little chapter?
(08:44:27) Norm(RR) : have a good week
(08:44:35) 'Carol' says to Jan: heh getting 'puter palor here'..brain is overflowing...
(08:44:58) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): *hugs*..K.. bye NORM, have a GREAT week!!
(08:45:01) Jan says to Norm(RR): have a good day... I'll be up early tomorrow... if you have time in the morning.
(08:45:14) Norm(RR) : I am not sure about Tue nite...I may be in the wheat field again...depends on the weather...*s*
(08:45:36) Norm(RR) says to Carol: bye..*hug*
(08:45:36) 'Carol' says to Norm(RR): eww.. I may not be here Tues either..not sure yet
(08:45:50) Norm(RR) says to Jan: bye,,*hug*
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