June 6, 1999
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(07:37:03) Jan : In The Four Agreements, Ruiz reveals the source of our self-limiting beliefs that rob us of joy and create needless suffering and he offers a powerful code of conduct that can transform our lives.
(07:37:27) Jan : He states that we make thousands of agreements with others- with society,with family and with God... but that the most important agreements are those that we make with ourselves.
(07:37:33) Carol says to Appy: well..'always' is an absolute...cannot say I 'always' practice or 'take on' the four agreements *paying attention to Jan now*
(07:37:59) Jan : These agreements we make with ourselves define us... they tell us who we are, what we feel, what we believe, and how to behave... the result of these agreements is what we call our "personality". "This is what I am... this is what I believe."
(07:38:26) Jan : Some of the agreements we make cause us to suffer from negative self-esteem, in that they point out to us where we have failed - where we fall short of what we have come to believe is "perfection."
(07:38:54) Jan : If we want to find peace of mind, joy and fulfillment in our lives we have to learn to change our fear-based beliefs and operate from love-based beliefs.
(07:39:13) Jan : any comments?
(07:40:22) Jan : no one wants to challenge any of that?
(07:40:38) Appy says to Jan: here is a little Tao *G* It is said a man (person) is three things, that which they think they are, that which others think they are and that which they truly are (07:41:13) Carol : just wanted to add..."we have come to believe is 'perfection'".adding......or our 'perfepotion' of what we THINK is perfection
(07:41:18) Appy says to Jan: I can't challenge any of it, I agree with it
(07:41:30) Jan says to Appy: but what we think we are is most important in terms of how we feel about ourselves... our inner peace
(07:42:04) Jan says to Carol: what was that word?
(07:42:10) Carol : mm I agree with the statements also
(07:42:24) Carol : oh.. blush.. perception
(07:42:25) Appy says to Jan: what we think we are changes day to day , year to year, it is not static
(07:43:27) Jan says to Carol: the problem seems to be that some of what we come to believe is just not true
(07:44:16) Carol says to Jan: agreed.. and thinking.. once we are aware of this, we are more able to 'change'..to grow...to find that 'peace, joy, fulfillment'
(07:44:41) Jan says to Appy: we are taught what is right and wrong from many sources... parents, teachers, Sunday school... society.. we believe that "this" is what we ought to be... and when we fall short, we judge and punish ourselves
(07:45:59) Carol says to Jan: and often..we are our own worse enemies....judging ourselves as 'imperfect'..not living up to the standards we put on ourselves...
(07:46:02) Appy says to Jan: which takes us to the fourth agreement, always do your best, If you do your best you cannot find fault with failure
(07:46:34) Jan : Ruiz talks about how when other species make mistakes they don't repeatedly punish themselves... but we humans continue to punish ourselves over and over... why can we not be more forgiving of ourselves or others?
(07:47:38) Carol says to Jan: good question...why cannot we..have an answer? hehe..but also, I find, I'm more willing to forgive others, than I am to forgive myself (07:48:15) Jan says to Carol: perhaps we have a different imagine of perfection for ourselves than we have for others... expect more of ourselves
(07:48:41) Appy says to Jan: I have troubles with that, I do not disagree with it, I just can't practice it. If someone does something to me that I find hurtful or mean, I cannot forgive, I just put them out of my life
(07:48:51) Jan says to Carol: image....
(07:49:03) Carol says to Jan: mmm.. or...thinking, maybe I don't take responsibility for others actions, as much as I do for myself? I cannot 'change' others, only myself
VENGEANCE escaped from Hell : Hello.People. I 've finally found a bastion of hope. Oh, praise the Gods. Hello, wonderful people.
(07:49:55) Jan says to Appy: in doing that you may be robbing yourself of an opportunity
VENGEANCE escaped from Hell : Whats everybody reading about?
(07:50:38) Jan says to Norm(RR): psst! are you still here?
(07:50:47) Appy says to Jan: That maybe true, but I look at it as giving them the opportunity to hurt me again
VENGEANCE escaped from Hell : I like Brian Lumley, myself. In case you're interested.
(07:51:07) Jan says to VENGEANCEescaped from Hell: we're discussing a book called The Four Agreements
(07:51:36) VENGEANCE escaped from Hell says to Appy: I would never hurt you. I promise. crosses his heart
(07:51:38) Carol says to VENGEANCEescaped from Hell: Four Agreements...by Don Miguel Ruiz
(07:51:47) Norm(RR) says to Jan: ...s*s...yes...I am still here
(07:52:01) Appy says to VENGEANCEescaped from Hell: *LOL*
(07:52:44) VENGEANCE escaped from Hell says to Carol: I have never read that book, so perhaps I should leave until I am more familiar with the subject matter. Sorry to disturb you all. bows
(07:53:03) Appy says to Jan: I said I needed to work on that one. I realize very well that is the way of the holy
(07:53:22) Jan : Ruiz believes that by adopting these four simple agreements we can cha
nge our experience, retain personal power and find more inner peace (07:53:22) Carol says to VENGEANCEescaped from Hell: your welcome to stay if you'd like
(07:53:24) Appy says to VENGEANCEescaped from Hell: I haven't read it either
(07:54:06) Norm(RR) says to VENGEANCEescaped from Hell: I have not read it, either...
(07:55:06) Appy says to Jan: Have you seen the movie Holy Man? He acts accordingly to these agreements
(07:55:29) Jan says to Appy: no, i haven't seen that... but I'd like to
(07:56:14) Appy says to Jan: It is worth it, not your typical Eddie Murphy film. It is indeed about a holy man
(07:56:31) Norm(RR) says to Jan: I am just taking all this in...*s*...
(07:58:02) Jan : The First Agreement.. Be impeccable with your word.. Speak with integrity. say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love
(07:59:48) Appy says to Jan: and know that you can be wrong and accept you can make mistakes
(08:00:05) Norm(RR) says to Jan: direction of truth and love...does he define truth and love?
(08:00:09) Jan says to Appy: yes... i think that's the hard part
(08:01:05) Jan says to Norm(RR): not that I've seen ... but i find this to be good advice... we can do that...
(08:01:26) Carol says to Norm(RR): Ruiz has an interesting 'definition' of impeccable.....wish you had the book..smiles..says "from Latin pecatus..and I'm...without..without sin
(08:01:26) Appy says to Jan: to speak with integrity does not mean speak only the truth, it means speak of the truth with the best of your knowledge
(08:02:07) Norm(RR) says to Jan: of course, then....the real issue then, is to know real truth....and what love really is....
(08:02:11) Jan says to Norm(RR): shall we define some words? impeccable, truth and love?
(08:02:39) Jan says to Norm(RR): agreed
(08:02:50) VENGEANCE escaped from Hell : Ok, this is too heavy of a conversation to get into, so I will not disrupt it further. Goodbye all.
. (08:03:20) Jan says to Norm(RR): but I'm not sure Ruiz intends for this to be quite so complicated... truth is truth where ever we find it.. *s*
(08:04:59) Norm(RR) says to Jan: truth is truth where ever we find it..????........how is 'truth' recognized ?
(08:05:11) Jan says to Norm(RR): he states the our "word" is our power to create...much the same way dyer suggests... what we believe becomes true for us... our word expresses what we believe
(08:06:32) Jan says to Norm(RR): do we want to create conflict with untruths or do we want to create peace?
(08:07:01) Norm(RR) says to Jan: what we believe becomes true for us....well, then...I believe that I have 10 million dollars in my bank accounts...
(08:07:35) Carol says to Norm(RR): I challenge that Norm,,smile..do you really "believe" that? *sighs*
(08:07:44) Appy says to Jan: but you must be able to change that belief in view of new facts, if you do not, then you cling to falsehoods and hence lie to yourself and to others, truth becomes falsehood
(08:07:57) Jan says to Norm(RR): congratulations...
(08:08:39) Jan says to Appy: exactly the point Ruiz is making... we need to change those beliefs
(08:08:52) Carol says to Norm(RR): I think the point here,,,is 'belief'....as in 'perception'...how I see me, others, the world around me...attitude maybe...real, or imagined...
(08:08:57) Norm(RR) says to Carol: ....*s*....only if that does in fact come in to being....
(08:08:59) Appy says to Jan: you must be flexible, we cannot know everything in one day (08:09:31) Jan says to Appy: not sure we can know everything in one lifetime...
(08:09:53) Appy says to Jan: we cannot know everything in a lifetime
(08:10:15) Appy says to Jan: *LOL* great minds think alike *LOL*
(08:10:57) Jan says to Appy: but i do see being impeccable with word to be an excellent goal... one i often find myself falling short of... we all make negative self judgments.. we all have found ourselves gossiping...
(08:12:00) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes, we do behave in ways which are directed by our perceptions and 'beliefs'....*s*....but the fact of the matter is, what we perceive to be 'true' does NOT change the reality of the situation...
(08:12:32) Jan : a have a bible handy? "in the beginning there was the word... etc" what's that whole quote?
(08:12:37) Appy says to Jan: Nearly all my life I made negative self judgments, but then one day everything changed and I can't explain how this was accomplished, it just happened
(08:12:44) Carol says to Norm(RR): mmmm thinking
(08:13:11) Jan says to Norm(RR): it changes the way you experience the situation... and which matters most?
(08:14:15) Carol says to Jan: John: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was within God, and the Word is God"
(08:14:40) Jan says to Norm(RR): with every situation we have a choice about how we will receive or perceive the experience... is it a negative or a positive situation?
(08:14:45) Norm(RR) says to Jan: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God.
(08:15:34) Norm(RR) says to Jan: He was with God in the beginning.
(08:16:01) Jan says to Norm(RR): what does that mean? the word was God? the power to create?
08:16:52) Jan : what do we hope to achieve with our words? (08:17:20) Jan : if we speak negative about another person..what is our goal?
(08:17:48) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes,,,that is part of the meaning...the power to create...there are other ramifications of that passage.
(08:18:35) Jan says to Norm(RR): if the word = the power to create...we should be awfully careful about what we speak....
(08:19:00) Carol : ...."whatever came to be in him found life, life for the light of men...
(08:19:34) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes....that is so....we must be very careful of what we speak....
(08:19:47) Jan says to Norm(RR): speak impeccably... without sin...from truth and love
(08:20:58) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes...of course.....and that places upon us a responsibility...namely to know Truth and Love....in a real and personal way...*s*
(08:22:25) Jan says to Norm(RR): i agree... and i believe that comes from being without judgment or fear based reaction... how do we define truth? can we do it with words?
(08:22:30) Norm(RR) says to Jan: back to the quotes from John
(08:23:29) Norm(RR) says to Jan: 3..Through Him all things were made.; with Him nothing was made that has been made.
(08:23:34) Jan says to Norm(RR): 1. Conformity to fact or actuality. 2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true. 3. Sincerity; integrity. 4. Fidelity to an original or a standard. 5. Reality; actuality. 6. Truth. Christian Science. God.
(08:24:15) Norm(RR) says to Jan: 4. Fidelity to an original or a standard.
(08:24:48) Norm(RR) says to Jan: *s*...that is correct...as long as one has the right standard...*s*
(08:24:50) Jan says to Norm(RR): do we not recognize truth when we hear it or see it? it really is something that we have to feel
(08:24:59) Carol says to Jan: humm..dictionary says 5. Reality...and yet...we are discussing....'the dream'...the reality as we perceive it..'our truths'...our realities...
(08:25:51) Jan says to Carol: i think that's the point the author is making... our personal truth is based often on misconceptions (08:26:06) Jan says to Carol: that's why he refers to it as the dream
(08:26:26) Appy winks good-naturedly at Jan: Christian science ?
(08:26:34) Carol says to Jan: mmmm.. ok
(08:26:44) Norm(RR) says to Jan: our personal truth is based often on misconceptions ...that is SO OFTEN the case......I agree
(08:26:57) Jan says to Appy: that in the dictionary...part of the definition of truth
(08:27:23) Jan says to Appy: i can't type today... that WAS in the dictionary
(08:27:32) Appy says to Jan: My god! *LOL* *shakes head*
(08:27:55) Jan says to Appy: lol
(08:28:09) Appy says to Jan: There is no such thing as Christian Science
(08:28:12) Carol chuckles quietly at ALL: ..
(08:28:37) Norm(RR) says to Appy: I was wondering about that 'Christian Science' clause, myself...*s*
(08:29:04) Jan : well, folks... I'm gonna give it a try.. working on being impeccable with my word..
(08:29:14) Carol says to Appy: Mary Baker Eddy would disagree with you *s*
(08:29:39) Carol says to Jan: Me too Jan.. Gunna 'do my best"
(08:30:05) Appy says to Carol: I don't know who that is, but science has nothing to do with religion, real science that is
(08:30:32) Jan says to Carol: seems to me that if we question our goals before we speak we may find it easier to speak impeccably...
(08:30:56) Carol says to Appy: mmm ok.. Mary Bakker Eddy, I believe..is the 'founder' of a Christian 'sec'(?) Christian 'group'....called..Christian Scientists
(08:31:17) Norm(RR) says to Appy: Mary Baker Eddy..started a movement called Christian Science....and that is quite a subject in itself
(08:31:29) Appy says to Jan: speak true to your heart, speak without ulterior motives
(08:32:17) Carol says to Norm(RR): yes.. another interesting topic *s*...
(08:32:21) Appy says to Norm(RR): I suppose these are "creation scientists"?
(08:32:48) Jan : i was thinking about that part of the first agreement that refers to gossip especially... what motivate us to gossip? what are we trying to convey?
(08:33:00) Norm(RR) says to Carol: of course there are MANY topics similar to that one....*s*
(08:33:14) Carol : well guys..it's that time..I need to get moving....hope to see you all Tuesday night on link..for John Discussion *s*..this was good Jan..THANKS!
(08:33:49) Norm(RR) says to Jan: yes, Jan...thanks...a really fine job...*s*
(08:34:03) Appy says to Jan: several motives, to warn, to hurt, to protect,
(08:34:03) Carol says to Jan: I've thought, at times..gossip is our way of 'building ourselves up', by bringing or pointing out others faults...
(08:34:21) Jan : here i am... just another human trying to understand the 'how' and the 'why'....making things a lot more complicated than they need to be... hehehe...
(08:34:57) Appy says to Jan: the answer is simply to simplify *L*
(08:35:09) Jan : there's never enough time here.... i didn't begin to cover all i wanted to
(08:35:29) Norm(RR) says to Carol: yes, gossip is usually that, I think
(08:35:32) Carol says to Jan: *sings* "Tis a gift to be simple, Tis a gift to be free"
(08:35:36) Appy says to Jan: an hour goes real quick
(08:35:57) Norm(RR) says to Jan: nope, there is never enough time
(08:35:58) Jan : thanks for being here... i enjoyed it...
(08:36:23) Norm(RR) : see you later...*s*
(08:36:38) Appy : bye bye
(08:36:38) Jan : have a good week.. see you all later....
(08:36:47) Appy : Leaves...
(08:37:14) Carol says to Jan: babye.....and yes..never enough time...but leaves us wanting more...*s*..tootles
(08:37:44) Norm(RR) : *hugs*....have a great day...-*s*
(08:37:50) Jan says to Carol: bye...
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