Have Your Say


Speak, or go home and forever hold your peace


 
 
 
 
 

Is dancing really the 3rd most popular sport in SA
Brian Joubert
On the question of whether dancing is the 3rd most popular sport in South Africa, I don't think so. The reason I say this is, the popularity of a sport in any country is determined by the TV coverage it gets, not by how many people participate in it. On that score alone, dancing is a non-entity.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


"What do you think of social or comp dance etiquette?"
Boet Joubert
On social etiquette. Where I dance it is socially ruthless. Male dancers shoot their left arm out as though at war with the community around them. Similar to those Robotic war machines shown on TV recently with their spikes and gadgets sticking out ready to kill or protect themselves from being annihilated. These couples race down the straight of the hall as if they're the only ones on the floor, and when they do give you a viscous clip, mostly don't even know they have.

There are unwritten rules for social dancing, and the first rule is, always be very aware of those dancing around you. The second is, move anti-clockwise around the room. The third is, gentlemen, take a few dancing lessons to learn how to drive and steer your partner around the floor so that you are not an obstacle to the others, and do that before you invite a partner out for a dance.

Thank goodness for those who do respect the basic rules. Who adjust the size of their steps and their hold to suit the crowded conditions. Who move along the line of dance. Who are courteous towards their partner. Who do everything to avoid barging in to others and who realise that the other people at the dance also want to enjoy themselves.


Vanessa Smith
As a regular social dancer, I would like to express my feelings regarding some of the things that upset me at social dances from a woman's point of view.

Firstly, what I dislike most is when male dancers push and tug me around the dance floor as if I'm a stupid kitchen mop without a brain.  This not only shows disrespect for my ability, but makes me believe that they think I can't dance or follow. Particularly when they push and pull me with their right arm. This prevents me from following whatever they are trying to lead me into and it feels hellish uncomfortable and awkward.

Secondly, and it has happened on a number of occasions, a male asks me for a dance but hasn't a clue how to put one foot in front of the other. I find myself being dragged upstream in the wrong direction and then being used as a protective buffer against the on-coming traffic. To me, that's like making a speech on a subject you know nothing about, which is another insult.

Thirdly, unfortunately some male dancers seem to think that if you are single then you are definitely out on a man hunt!  On the contrary,  I go to socials for the same reason most people go to the gym ... to keep fit and trim!

Men, if you can't dance, stay at home, or go to bioscope, or better still take dancing lessons and learn to lead ... you will also be taught about floor craft and dance etiquette ...  without this basic knowledge you are making a fool of yourself and the one you asked to dance with - WHAT DANCE?

Doug de Villiers
First I must compliment you on your wonderful site. There is no dance website that offers dancers so much news, and it gets you where you want to go chooff, chuff. I want shoes, one click and shoes I've got. I want officials, and one click, chooff, chuff officials I have, what a pleasure.

On the subject of dance etiquette at socials, I think it is deplorable. I frequent a singles' club every week in Pretoria and the regulars have no idea of what the meaning of "line of dance" is. They dangerously career clockwise around the floor of the room, then viciously change to anti-clockwise, then dart across the centre and are eventually forced into the flow of the stream. In the meantime many dancers are bruised and battled along the way. And those sitting out along the edge of the floor don't make it any easier for the dancers. Their feet protude onto the floor, and my partner and I have often had to step over them.

Wez Mayo
On the subject of dance floor etiquette, this as you well know, is a major problem in the social dancer's life, especially as we dance at “open” venues all the time, where Joe Public is free to roam. The big “irritation” in particular, are those dancers that do not follow the basic anti-clockwise-round-the-outside rule of the dance floor, mostly because of ignorance, as they are not regular dancers.

The times when you are doing a Swing or a Rumba in the middle of the floor and Joe Public and partner come slamming into you as they wander aimlessly every-which-way, in all directions across the floor (many a time a nasty ankle or heel attack without so much as a gesture of apology, has resulted in a retaliatory well-aimed shot next time around - with an innocent apology of course! ) Then there is the “Windgat” exhibitionist couple, who need to have the whole floor to themselves to demonstrate their talent to the whole room and in so doing, mess up everybody else's right-of-way.

One of our fellow dancing friends refers to them as “taxi dancers” , as they also attract a one-finger-in-the-air gesture - enough said! The answer to this problem of ignorance/disregard can easily be rectified, by the venue owner/manager/ess getting the DJ or a Band member to announce the basic dance floor rules on a regular basis in a very diplomatic way. A poster at the entrance to, or inside the venue, plus maybe a leaflet on the tables will also help to make every dancers life a lot more pleasant.



Judging...? 

Hi Jay, thought you would like this for your "Have Your Say" section.

Cheers CJ

There were 30 readers who commented on this month's question which was "Do you think the judging system is fair and why?"

In summing up the replies, it was quite obvious that the majority felt that the system is unfair and needs addressing by DSA. There was a consensus of opinion that the judging was most unfair when there was a perceived conflict of interest in the areas of coaches judging their own couples, studio principals judging their own students and judges looking after their own state in interstate events.

Judging in any sport will always be subjective. One experienced adjudicator's opinion versus another. Who is right? Does anyone have the authority to say who is right and who is wrong?

The system of working out the marks eliminates most of the problems. A couple receiving marks of 1,1,1,1,6,6,6 in a dance with seven judges, will win that dance. A couple receiving marks of 1,1,1,6,6,6,6 will be placed last in that dance. Therefore, it does not help a couple much if one, or perhaps two, judges are biased in any way, because the majority of judges will determine the result.

However, this does not in any way take away the responsibility for judges to be held accountable.

The result of this questionnaire will be tabled before the Accreditation Standing Committee and the National Council and I am sure that DSA will do all in its power to ensure that the judging system is made as fair and as equitable as possible.

The replies to the question are listed below.

Name not submitted
No it is not: It should be a similar system to what is used in ice skating. Coaches should not be allowed to judge their own pupils. At least one member of the public should be on any judging panel, they would mark as they see.

Name not submitted
No, because the judges have a severe tendency to judge their couples first or higher than other couples on the floor. I don't know how this could be solved other by than the judges giving everyone a fair go and not marking favourites.

Not to name names, but there have been incidents when couples have left teachers who mark fairly and gone to other judges just so they could improve there placings in competitions. This situation needs to stop and now is not too soon.

To respond to the above comment saying that at least one member of the public should be allowed to judge because they would mark what they see. Well, this is all very well and good but a member of the public would not know what they are judging. They would only judge the presentation aspect which is part of it but there is a lot more to it than that. The footwork and technique of a dancer is a very important aspect and this I have to say would be overlooked.

No name
I think it is reasonably fair, provided of course that the judges do not judge their own students.

Aric Yegudkin
No, the judging system is not very fair as some judges give a couple a high undeserved mark just because they learn from them, because they are from their state or because they had some lessons from them. I think the dancing Board should overlook this topic.

Craig Gauder
Yes, I believe the adjudicating system is relatively fair.

Most judges of any stature I find to be quite impartial; they would not have earned this stature by showing a misinformed bias. It is important to understand that judges who mark their own couples first can really only have an effect at local comps, possibly when they are the only adjudicator. People who rely on their teacher to rank them well will come undone at major championships, possibly when they are competing interstate, and these are the comps that really count.

Competing in a small local dancing scene, I find that adjudicating is most fair when a judge is flown in from another locale to do the job. This almost eliminates local bias.

I'd be interested on what suggestions could be made for making the judging more fair, though, as I can't think of any.

No name
The judging system could be amended to reflect other sports such as ice skating.

By not allowing coaches to judge their own pupils will appear to be the right thing to do, however, it still does not stop a judge from judging an ex-pupil and marking them lower than they deserve. It is difficult when you have human nature in the event.

We have all experienced an ex-teacher marking us lower than we deserve.  This is common place.

I don't think there is any way to stop this.  It just shows we have a lot of judges with no ethics and morals and are totally corrupt.  I don't know how they can sleep at night.

I know of some local judges like this, and I will ensure that I never support their comps or have lessons from them.

C E Browne
The comments made by others all have some validity. I think we have all experienced judges marking up or down to suit their own agenda.   It is a difficult question with no immediate answer.

Perhaps the "skating system" would seem more appropriate with artistic merit and technical ability being taken into account - a more defined judging process.  I'm sure even in skating and other subjective sports such as gymnastics, political and personal bias enters into play - we don't live in a perfect world.
There is certainly room for improvement though.

LYNETTE WATTS
No, I definitely do not think the adjudicating system is at all fair, some adjudicators only go on panels for prestigious reasons or to look after their own pupils. Some of them have obtained their qualifications by learning the book, and as any knowledgeable professional knows, there is a lot more to dancing than what the book says. You have to be able to perform the steps and be a past champion of current styles to know what is up-to-date. Judges should have to show their convictions, not just mark their cards, and that is that. The professionals are killing their own market. All the dancers want is a fair go, and until this becomes a reality people will continue to give up the sport. Dancing is too expensive a sport to be ripped off.

There are too many back-yarders judging dancers that could teach the professionals how to dance correctly. The judging system should be the same as the ice skating where the adjudicators scores are visible to everyone. This will get rid of the cheats. My pupils will not compete if I know that the adjudication panel is stacked.

I have seen adjudicators mark their cards before the music has even started, is this a fair system? I believe that all professionals should have to redo their exams under DanceSport. If they are afraid to do so, then they should not be judging as I believe they don't know what they are looking for. Too many professionals have too high an opinion of themselves. This is what puts people off the sport. Even though I am a teacher, I have always stood by the amateur, as I believe they get a raw deal 99% of the time.

No name
It is not Fair, but how are we going to change it? They can't possibly eliminate all the judges with pupils dancing, as there will be no judges left.

No name
NO! I think the judging sucks! I'm sorry for the language but it does. Just because you learn from someone doesn't mean you get 1st place, that is what's happening at the moment, that is one of the biggest problems of DanceSport.

No name
Sadly, unlike Tennis if the ball is out it is not always out. But there are a few things to consider.
I don't really think that there is a completely fair way to Judge. If an adjudicator marks his or her couple first perhaps his pupil executed the movement in the way that he or she thought it should be done.

Yes I agree, the skating system would be fairer, but comps are long enough now without having each couple dance on their own before a panel.

It is not always possible to have a completely unbiased panel who have no pupils on the floor, as many couples have many different teachers. But maybe the best way to do it is to make sure that the panel of judges is large enough to lessen the chance of what I call EGO JUDGING.

I am of the opinion that many judges are not sending a couple onto the floor, they are sending themselves out there.

No name
I think the comment made in the letter to the editor in the Latest edition of the dance review is very correct. I don't know any solutions to this problem, unless judges don't judge their own pupils. But that would make life hell for the Chairman of adjudicators... well, I hope the problem is resolved

Craig (again)
I think Lynette Watts hit on an interesting possibility! What if the adjudicators had to hold up really big score (ranking) cards for every event? I saw this happen on the TV coverage of the world pro-latin's in South Africa.

Perhaps this very public show of 'who gave who what' would eliminate some underhandedness. I know this would pose some problems, longer presentations definitely being one of them (and we wouldn't want their arms to get tired, would we?). I guess, no matter how fair a judge is, they will always come under fire from someone. Maybe this system would necessitate an armed escort home that night... Does anyone else think this could work?

Fiona McIver
I think that the system in itself is fair, but unfortunately it often seems to be abused by some judges.

No name
The judging system is very unfair.  It should be performed and carried out in the same way as ice skating or gymnastics.  Marks are given from 1 to 6 and .5 is taken off for any errors made.  The panel should be completely unknown to the competitors, thus eliminating any discrepancy in marks.

Annoyed
Well, what can I say? Most comments on this page have said it already! My children are not competing in DanceSport anymore, I wonder why? Has anyone noticed there is a fall in numbers... Judges have you taken a good look at yourselves... you are killing your own sport. Just to advance your own couples you mark against any competitive couple, that may hinder your couples chances of winning. If this is not so, then explain why, out of an absolute majority, say for instance five judges marking all 1st or even 2nd places then you get one judge marking 6th place. To me this is not on, as it clearly shows this judge is bias. I know of two judges who do this repeatedly, and to tell you the truth I will never have any respect for them... ever, not to mention if my children ever decide to take up dancing again, they will be the last Judges or Teachers I would ever send my children to.

Joel Anderson
I don't think the judging system is totally fair, but what other way can it be done??

If it was done like ice-skating there would only be 1 couple on the floor at a time because other wise not all the judges will see all the mistakes. I think the only way it will become fairer is if judges don't give preference to people from their studio/state or whatever.

No name
I absolutely agree that there is unfair judging going on, in particular in the higher grades. The only way I see it being fixed, is that there should be a pool of adjudicators for each style, and they do not judge every heat, semi, or final. In this way, their students, somewhere along the way, would not have their teachers marks. Also, I think there should be a ruling that if an adjudicator judged an Australian Final, (whatever grade), he cannot judge the same style final the following year.

Don Herbison-Evans
There is a BIG PROBLEM with judging, and it is time ADF, etc. woke up to it and did something about it. A big step forward to dispelling the suspicions of competitors would be to make public at the comps the recall and ranking lists as they are produced, instead of being able only to "buy" copies (and then only of finals). I recall at many comps I went to in Canada, these listings are posted on a prominent notice board at the comp as it progresses, and one can see immediately who voted for whom. I think that is a good system. Can't we have it here too?

Brian
I believe that the system, as it is supposed to work, is fair, but the application sucks.

The only way to truly fix this problem (other than changing all coaches minds), is to make the judging panel as big as possible, and rotate the different judges.

The rotation would happen after every round, so a couple being judged by a panel of 5 judges after 3 rounds could possibly be judged by 15 different judges.

This would make it extremely hard to "fix" the event.

Jenny D.
I cannot help but agree with all those who believe the judging is unfair.  The very first thing we learned as newcomers to the sport several years ago, was that the most effective way to score well was not based on any degree of skill or artistic ability but on how many dance schools you attended so that you could win favour with as many judges as possible.  In fact, my children attend a club where the students consistently rank well interstate or overseas, yet often score badly in WA.  Why? because they suffer from "wrong-dance-school-ism".  Even the young juveniles know that it is possible to be awarded 1, 1, 1, 1, 6!!! .

We want to make this sport recognised as such - a sport.  We need well trained coaches and adjudicators where there are clear standards, moral and ethics codes to meet.   I agree with the idea of rotating adjudicators so that it is impossible for them to score their own students all the time.

No name
I think the fact that most people are not submitting their names to this column says it all! Everyone is too scared to speak up for fear that they will be punished in some way when they are out on the floor.

Apart from the judges judging their own couples first and those from rival studios down, you also find judge A marking a couple from judge B's studio down because he may not like judge B! It has nothing to do with how couples are dancing on the floor, it is pure politics. How do you know if your kids are actually good dancers or if they are just getting the marks to hold out some other couple from getting a place? I also agree wholeheartedly with the remarks made in the recent edition of dance review. Some judges ought to be ashamed of the way they behave. We can only hope that the new generation of judges coming through, i.e. recently retired Australian champions who are now judging, can judge fairly and equally and bring new life to the judging panels.

No name
Of course it is unfair if a judge marks their own student highly simply for that reason. However, while I agree that a judging bias exists, I think something needs to be said in defense of judges.

If I had to guess I would say that many of the comments on this page come from students who believe they have been disadvantaged, or parents who feel this on behalf of their children. It is natural to feel disappointed in bad results, and if it is believed that bias has had a role in the marks then it is also natural to feel bitter and disillusioned about it.

I don't mean to imply that people's complaints are unjustified. I may just be naive about the whole process, but I don't believe that the judges are inherently evil.

They are only people... 'to err is human' ... isn't it?     I also don't believe there is any way to eliminate personal bias from a DanceSport competition. It is a subjective sport. The judging process, by definition, relies heavily on personal opinion and interpretation. It is a lot easier for other sports such as running,
athletics, swimming, etc. because the judging is simple - first past the post. With artistic sports the rules are not as easy to define.

If the purpose of changing the judging system is to eliminate the personal factor, then I believe it is futile.

Another word in defence of judges - sometimes it is possible to be biased towards people without realising it. When you teach a student you have a lot more knowledge about their dancing than someone who sees them only on the competition floor. Hence it is possible to look at someone and see their dancing
in a better light because you know they can dance better and have seen them do so. I am not saying this is acceptable, but it is often an unconscious process. In which case no matter how moral and ethical the INTENTIONS of the judges are, the results could still be biased.

I agree that the system may reduce bias if judges don't judge their own students.


What Dutch judges say

Judging is a difficult task, for which you need a lot of concentration. In a short time the jury members have to look at all the couples and compare them, so they are able to place the right couples to the next round.

The jury members use their knowledge and experience to make their decision for the couples they will put down to go to the next round, in one and a half minute (the time that most of the dances are danced during a contest). They judge the couples on the way they stand, how they dance to the beat, their balance, moving as one, rhythm and their technique.

Mostly, the members of the jury give points during the first rounds and the quarter-finals to place a couple through to the next round. In the simi-finals and finals they use the skating system. It's common to make notes during a round, because some series are weaker or stronger that the other. Even in the final notes are made due to the difference in quality of some couples and the way they dance.

There is always an odd number of jury members present, to make sure that couples don't placed in the same position. The jury members all have different training backgrounds and are often also trainers for contest couples.

Being a jury member is a ungrateful task, many couples disagree with the results and a lot of remarks/ criticism towards the jury members is made, when the results are presented. A lot of people forget that the task of the jury members isn't easy and that it's made by people who have a lot of knowledge and experience in the dancing field. You can say that the jury are very skilled at their task, and because their task isn't easy, there should be a little more respect shown for the members of the jury!!!

Tips on how to get a higher result when you compete in a contest:

DanceAholic: Present yourself and your dance partner when you walk on and off the floor. If you don't know how, take a look at the couples of the highest lever or ask you teacher to practise this with you at your training.

DanceAholic: Stand straight and look self-confident.

DanceAholic: Try to start as soon as possible (to the beat of course!) and if you have to start again due to a mistake or running into another couple: take a deep breath and do the steps again. This way the jury can see that you do know your steps. If you think the steps will go wrong just skip them.

DanceAholic: Always check tips of other dancers with your trainer. Not all tips you get are completely correct.

Anonymous: Look around at a contest to see where there is space to dance. I often see many couples start in the same place or dance at the same place, while the rest of the floor is empty. Why? just because they need to finish their programme. It looks much more professional if you can use the space on the floor by shortening your programme, dance to the open space and do your programme again. Also don't let yourself be pushed to the edges of the floor. In the middle of the floor is often more space than on the sides.

Anonymous: Appear self-confident and positive, let is show you have fun and try to involve the audience.

Kees Stam: Present yourself and your partner as the champions, look around like you want to find out who will become number two.

Jasper Aarts: Get more self-confidence by saying to yourself that you are number 1 and that the others still have a long way to go to become number 1. Dance your programme in the middle of the floor so the jury can see what you are doing very well. With the standard dances, dance your programme closer to the edge of the floor.

Kees Stam: Take lessons with different teachers. Judging is a subjective thing. A judge is going to look at you sooner if he knows you. Do keep track of the quality of the teachers. A jury member that is often seen at contests is not always a good teacher.

Hans Verheul: If you are with a team, make fun amongst each other. Make it a nice day out, this way you are less stressed and you will see, your dancing will go better too.

Luc Molenaar: Keep smiling, even when things go wrong.

Andre de Werdt: Don't pay too much attention to the remark of Mr. Stam. Sometimes another teacher isn't bad at all. But !!!! As many trainers there are, as many views to dancing there are. There are many ways that lead to Rome. If you are constantly changing teachers, and your way of dancing, you will lose track of what you are doing. Try to find a good (!) trainer and plan your way to the top. Concerning the way judges "look at you if they know you", 90% of the judges are professionals, so if you are not good enough you won't get a cross. Knowing them won't help a bit. Try to find the cause within yourself, don't blame the trainer, judge, the floor, the music or your partner, look at yourself first!!!!

Simone: To get the attention of jury members make sure you approach them with a big smile (don't overdo it) like they are someone you know and like very much. Dance in the middle of the floor, not in the corners as no-one will see you there, and try to look where the jury members are. Stay on the floor at the end of each dance. Sometimes you dance in series and you have to dance more dances in a row. Leave the floor as soon as the next Series has been called for, or the speaker says that this was the last dance. If you leave the floor and you have to dance again. It looks like you are happy to leave the floor and this is not the impression you want to give the jury. Think you are a winner and go for it!!!!

Nancy: I often see dancers presenting themselves to each other in the middle of the floor. But the audience also like to see how you present yourself. Try to present yourself to the audience or jury. This looks professional. And let is show you enjoy dancing especially in the latin.  If it goes wrong in the standard dances, don't walk away and back to each other again.

Try to stay in dance position as much as possible. This way the mistake draws less attention.

Karel Verdeure (BE): Try to look  your best. Pick your clothes and make-up carefully because they can provide you with a lot of possibilities and make your changes better.

Jolanda de Ruyter: Even though you and your partner have a fight, don't let it show on the floor.

Guido van Gemerden: Get your wallet out of your trouser!!! And adjust your clothes to each other.
and watch your basic steps. Better a perfectly performed basic programme, than a programme done 90% well.

Anonymous: Wear something that feels comfortable, and not only because it looks beautiful. You have to dance in it !!!!!

Maximiliaan Winkelhuis: The best results you will get if you concentrate on the controllable facts: Your own body, your own mind and the things you can give to your partner during dancing. Any other concentration will lead to stress. You can't control your partner, other couples, the floor, the audience, the music, etc.

Concentration on non-controllable subjects will activate the autonom nerve-system. Conscious or not conscious, a form of stress will get into your body and you will perform less. Many dancers lose more from themselves than they do from other dancers. This nerve system will lead to a habit of which the dancer knows he/she can handle well. This is often a more and older technique/routine than a newly acquired one. So it's always a good habit to concentrate only on the things you can control and that goes for the lessons as well. The 3 things you can control are:
  1. Your own body: concentrate on what you can (learn); what kind of preparation does it need, repeat it very often so your nerve system will recognize the movement.
  2. Your own mind: teach yourself to concentrate in the exact same way on each of the 5 or 10 dances. For each dance a separate concentration point.
  3. What you give to your partner: Don't concentrate on what your partner does wrong or should do different. (This you can't control and it causes stress.) Concentrate on what you and your partner have for partnering skills to give (physical/technique, mental, emotional etc.). If something goes wrong, concentrate on what you can do to improve the situation (this helps almost every time!).
For all these 3 concentration points there are programmes that help dancers improve their performances. In the NADB-federation magazine there are regular articles published on this subject.

Michael van der Will: Try to be normal and yourself. Dance relaxed and have fun, also when you have a bad day.

Kees Stam: If possible try to get some experience in foreign contests. Try to combine this with a training at a top teacher in that country. The prices of a teacher usually are not that high when you take the lessons in their country.

Joelle: Before a contest starts, dance a few steps on the side with your partner. Just to concentrate and to loosen up your muscles a bit.

Ino & Hermien: When there is time to loosen the muscles before the contest, don't dance your programme. If you don't know it by then, then it's too late. It's a waste of energy. The muscles will cool down anyway before it's your turn to dance. Just pay attention to the way you stand. This doesn't have to be perfect, a good and relaxed way is enough. This will also stop you from irritating other couples. Myself, I never do anything more than the above. During the contest, we start with walking, this loosens the muscles and keeps them loose. Good luck with the next contest.

Daniel Vos: Try to dance in the middle of the floor, not to close to the sides because you won't be seen there, because your clothes will blend in with the audience!!!


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