Excommunication, Disfellowshipping
and LDS Church Courts
Another topic not well discussed before one joins the LDS, Mormon Church is the procedures used for discipline.
The best way to get educated on this topic is dropping in on a thread of discussion discussing this topic. Some of the people chatting have been disfellowshipped or excommunicated and can give a few details on what really happens.
An LDS Church "Court of Love" is held with the bishop and his counselors in attendance, to investigate if you have sinned. You will be summoned to court through your own admission or by someone
outside who reports the sin through the LDS Church.
(from the www.exmormon.org BBS)
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Subject: Court Experiences
Date: May 02 15:39
Author: A.Nonmus
I can't believe I subjected myself to a MORG church court. I can't tell you how humiliating is was to discuss private things to all 'The Boys' in there, and then later see them at activities and cringe again. What's the premise for this whole concept? Degradation? Even the catholic is more humane (private confessions)! Any thoughts on this? (No, I'm not trying to be nosy-not the reason just the feelings accompanying the experience).
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Subject: Control, control, control; and bullies work best in groups.
Date: May 02 18:50
Author: Colonel Thomas Kane
Again, you are seeking the (always!) conditional approval of people who have nothing to gain from giving you more than the bare amount needed to keep you in line.
By working in a group, you can not focus your efforts on any one person. They can all focus their efforts on you with a thousand distraction methods. You will be dancing for their approval, and never really getting it. It's called control, and remember, Jesus never did this. That's why it's not a Church, it's a cult. It's not too far from the emotional equivalent of battery. It's designed to lower you, and keep you lower than.... them.
Welcome, by the way, to a classic Institutional double bind technique: "We abused you because we love you; it's really for your own good." You could get a copy of "The Hypnosis of Life," by Roy Masters, available at fhu.com or from Amazon. BTW, I don't have anything to do with Masters or his organization.
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Subject: I had one too
Date: May 02 20:14
Author: Roxie
It was one of the worst experiences of my life. All of the "brethren" were younger than I was, and there they were, passing judgment on me. I remember waiting out in the hallway for about an hour for them to make a decision, really nervous.
Although the result was about what I had expected (formal probation), it was so nerve-wracking to pace up and down the hallway, just waiting for them to make up their minds. By the time I got home that night, I was depressed and totally exhausted, emotionally and spiritually.
Why did I let those MEN (not even a woman there to identify with) determine MY spiritual status???
And now, over a year later, one of the members of the bishopric ignores me when he sees me in church (I still go for my daughter). The other two will at least shake my hand, but this one guy walks away from me as fast as he can. Like I have some disease....
BTW, I still haven't cleared the problem and come back into full fellowship....and the bishop will probably hold another court when he figures out that I haven't "repented" yet. Exed this time, no doubt.
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Subject: Re: Court Experiences
Date: May 03 00:28
Author: Cal
I think they love it because it empowers them. Someone once said, "Joseph Smith took a group of 19th Century misfits and promised them they would be gods and goddesses". I think this is still true.
I have a friend who had to get special permission to get baptized because she was asked the question, "Are you a criminal?". She was on probation for a disturbing the peace and firing a gun in public (she is an alcoholic, and was undergoing treatment). Now, the first presidency had to pray about her being baptized. Doesn't that make you sick? Isn't baptism supposed to get rid of sin?
Again, everyone involved in the process (Mission President, Bishop, Zone Leaders, missionaries) felt very important discussing this really significant theological point of allowing someone with a misdemeanor conviction, although on unsupervised probation, into the pristine organization that is Mormonism. She left within 6 months.
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Subject: what do they
Date: May 03 00:38
Author: Anna
ask you? do they go into all your sins, and do they have a file on you on how many times you have been to see the bishop and what you said? I really had no idea they even had court till recently. I always thought it was just between the bishop and the person being exed or whatever.
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Subject: My church court.
Date: May 03 01:13
Author: anon
I was disfellowshipped for adultery about 3 years ago. It's not something I am proud of...not at all. I went to the bishop and confessed. He wanted all the details. I was already sick with myself, and I said, "It was adultery! We had sex! How much more do you need to know??!!"
As it turned out, he "needed to know" most of the sordid details. LIKE A FOOL, I told him. I was completely suicidal, depressed, and just generally messed up.
I'd actually read "Mormon Enigma" about 3 months before my affair; it was the first time I'd ever heard anything about Joseph Smith's polyandrous marriages. For some reason, that knowledge just fractured my world. It destroyed just about everything I thought I understood about myself, my relationship with God, and my relationship with my spouse.
I made some pretty stupid decisions, and I needed PROFESSIONAL help. Instead, what I got was my bishop's advice to go home, read the Miracle of Forgiveness, and show up for a court. I don't blame the bishop for anything, I think he was a good guy.
I "repented." About four months later, the court was reconvened. Because our ward's boundaries had been changed during that four month period, I had to give all of the sordid details to three other men all over again. It was completely humiliating.
This is the part of my life that I'd honestly like to forget, forget, forget. BUT... there are at least 6 men out there who know about what I did. And I doubt that they will forget. It eats me up...the level of trust that I had in the Church...how could I be so stupid? So, to answer your questions:
1. It depends. My bishop wanted all of the details. So did one of his counselors. I've heard that not all bishops ask for them, though.
2. I don't think they have a file. BUT...when I was disfellowshipped, I did get a typewritten letter in the mail. Are there copies of this letter floating around in a file somewhere? Who typed the letter? I'll never know.
3. It's not just between you and the bishop. When formal action is taken, they clear the building and have a court for you. And if you value your membership (at that point I valued mine), you will shut up, look repentant, and answer whatever question they ask you.
I realize I am not entirely the sympathetic character in this drama: I was the one who did the horrible deed. I guess I don't really expect too much sympathy. I brought the whole thing on myself. BUT...I can honestly tell you that the court nearly destroyed whatever was left of me.
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Subject: You don't have to go to the court and it will comeout the same anyway,
Date: May 03 02:07
Author: sandisu
it is their way of humiliating you. When I asked to have my name removed they wanted a court. I told them I would not go to a court and that I did not do anything but come to believe the church was not true. I did not believe it and they no longer had control over me. They held the court anyway and sent me a letter of excommunication. I don't think they can do that now if you request your name removed but they did 20 years ago.
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Subject: Re: My church court.
Date: May 03 04:24
Author: Lawyer
You should sue the church. You had a verbal contract that in exchange for you tithe, etc..., they would save your soul. They have official told you that they will not save your soul, therefore, they should be forced to return money. They did not hold up to their end of the bargain. It is called Breach of contract.
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Subject: To: Anon
Date: May 03 13:22
Author: AnotherAnon
Reading your story sounds remarkably like mine. I was disfellowshipped for adultery and it was nearly the end of me. Not only did they want ALL the details but information about my past..very private information I would not tell anyone. And now there are men walking around our community that know things about me that could be very damaging. What if I wanted to hold a public office-I live in fear that this information will come out, mysteriously, and I'd never know who breached the confidence. It is an awful feeling, but comforting in some way to know I'm not the only one. I too came forward and confessed, but I guess that wasn't enough for them-
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Subject: Re: Court Experiences
Date: May 03 02:08
Author: X
12 people were in a circle. I was not allowed to have witnesses. They asked two or three dozen questions that were invasive and humiliating. About my life, About how i expressed it. They asked for prurient details about my life. They also asked about my politics, what i read, what i listened to, the movies i watched, how often i masturbated, what i masturbated to, If i had oral genital intimacy with the opposite sex, whether i had oral genital intimacy with members of the same sex, if I had mutual masturbation, anal sex, fetish activities, ... it was a laundry list of kink. I was shocked. I had my lover, my priesthood leader, my friends, my family called to testify that I was living as a practicing homosexual.
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Subject: Could someone elaborate on "sordid details?"
Date: May 03 13:33
Author: Ad Nihilo
Never having been to a Church court, I find it hard to believe that Jesus, oops, I mean, his servants the Stake Presidency and High Councillors, would want to know sordid details about sexual acts. What exactly have you guys (like anon) TOLD them? How much detail? I find it morally repugnant that a woman would be coerced into telling such sexual details to a group of men behind closed doors. Isn't that voyeurism?
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Subject: If it LOOKs like it, Sounds like it, then it must be voyeurism
Date: May 03 14:01
Author: Stu
It's the fulfullment of those nigh priests' sexual fantasies. Bet they can't wait until the next court..pant pant....
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Subject: During my last two years as Bishop.....
Date: May 03 18:46
Author: Gary
I decided not to hold a court on anyone unless it was for child molesting or spouse abuse. I just hated church courts and felt wrong about people spilling their guts to four men about their sins. I figured it was enough for a person to confess his/her sins to a Bishop. I am so glad not to deal with this mess anymore.
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Subject: Re: You don't even have to confess
Date: May 03 19:24
Author: Julian
About six months after my husband and I split, I began dating someone. My husband (I know we should have waited until the divorce) was already in a relationship and he said it was o.k. with him if I dated.
One day I was off somewhere and my boyfriend was at my house and answered the phone when the bishop called for some reason. He was very polite to the bishop, but shortly afterwards I was summoned to his office and grilled about the nature of my relationship.
He wanted to convene a court but I did not admit to anything, which frustrated him I imagine. Of course, I lied and felt terrible about it, but I still had kids living under my roof and did not want the gossip mill to run wild throughout the ward.
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Subject: Confess? Hell no.
Date: May 03 19:31
Author: Marla
Yes I agree, that would have been messy and needlessly so!
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Subject: Re: Court Experiences
Date: May 03 20:13
Author: Ned Flanders
I wonder to what extent church courts are a scapegoating mechanism. That is, the church has a siege mentality, a persecution complex--enemies are out to get it, it thinks. Its courts are a way that it can control, if not external enemies (like the media, the women's movement, gay pride, etc.), at least lesser 'enemies.' Thus it can compensate for its lack of control over the external enemies.
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Subject: I would never have confessed anything to the Bishop,
Date: May 04 03:54
Author: A Poster
I felt what I did in my private life was none of his business no matter how active I was. That is the problem, the members turn their lives over to a man to control what happens to them when they should not be doing it. I answered questions to go to the Temple and that was bad enough and I was not doing anything wrong anyway, but going to him and spilling my guts to be forgiven by a man, No way!
At least when you are Catholic and you make confession it is kept secret and you are told how you may be forgiven. NO Court or excommunication.
Page Modified May 6, 2001