Spoilers: an undercurrent of body image goes through the first half of this post, and those avoiding internal list fights may wish to dodge the bit after that.

Nieske's quiz. In true News Quiz style, and to show how MSCL reflected late 20th-century American culture, let me think about who should have said these quotes.
"We're not talking about wallpaper here, are we?"
It's a reference to Billy Clintern's infamous Grand Jerky (sorry, Jury) evidence from 1998. After the infamous "It all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is", a member of the Jerky passed a note to Inspector Starr, with the above quote. Many observers believe that Starr was, in fact, referring all along to wallpaper paste, which is the most likely contaminant of Monica Lewdwinsky's dress. It says here, in the Democrat Bulletin.

"I can't believe you did that to your hair without telling me."
We're off to the recent road protests at Lichfield. The stereotype of people who live on the route of planned roads is that they're smelly, unwashed, hippie layabouts. In fact, they're clean-living, hard-working hippies. Who have nothing to do in the evenings other than braid their hair. Sometimes, though, the braids fall out, and one has to do a little emergency restyling. Hence the quote above.

My sig is even longer than the rest of my post
In which case I will have to come over and ask you to write more, so that this isn't the case. Otherwise we'll just have to chop bits off the end of your sig, and that just won't do.

Priestess Cory, the Laa-Laa of Playoff Country
We will be the "You go grrl" club, for those who are damn proud of their bodies, are trying really hard to be, and, above all, support the awesomeness of women's bodies and women loving their bodies.
Curses. Excluded again. Where's the "Dana International Book Of How To Get On In Life" when I need it?

Ah, here.

1. My hair goes funkily streaky in the sun.
2. My eyes change colour under artificial light.
3. Purple is good for me.
4. I'm not afraid to accessorise...
5. ...and I can take the resulting attention (most of the time)
6. My calves are firm.
7. Erm...
8. That's it.

Laura
I can only do five right now.
Hey, any entries on this sort of list is good. Yay you.

Emily
cuz i'm not beautiful, i'm not pretty, and theres nothing about my body for me to feel good about.
There may be those who don't share that opinion. Now, I'm at a serious disadvantage here, coz I've not seen a piccy of our esteemed correspondent. But if she's just a pinch as gorgeous as her posts, then she could turn heads from across the Atlantic.

And [hugs] anyway.

a questoin for the bi/gay chics on the list......do u ever think about guys and just think YUCK!
Flipping this round, I can answer in the affirmative. Sometimes, there's nothing like a hunky guy to (imagine): snuggling up to.

2. i'm the ugliest person alive
No, that's me.
3. im nasty
No, that's me.
7. and i'm a generally ugly person
No, that's me.

Sara
1. I'm much too fat
Nope.
2. my hair is gross
Is not. Is not!
5. I can be rude, I can be a bitch
Nope, that's me.

1. I can be pretty - sometimes I can even be beautiful
What do you mean, "sometimes"? Try "pretty much all the damned time".
2. i like my eyes :)
Don't blame you. They're kinda cool.

And just because I've not directly contradicted anyone's point doesn't mean I go along with it. Given the accurancy rate of the other points, I strongly expect and believe the rest to be wrong an' all.

Now, Sara made a post that deserves comment. And comment I have done. In the medium that is best suited for it; off the list. There's very little that is germaine to a wider list debate, but this little sequence fits that bill.

I'm prepared to take criticism for rising to the bait. I'm not prepared to be the only one under fire for this.

Mail me for more details.

Sasha
the notorious Melbourne weather took a turn and snow started falling! Yaha!
What's more, the conditions at the MCG on Boxing Day were wet. Sasha's trip brought her nothing more than a stirring rendition of the national anthems (it says here). Worse was to come, as Australia lost the match with a day to spare. Yaha indeed!

This is Cookie's first time
Hello, Cookie. There's an obvious blue, furry gag, but I'm not going to do it.

So, weaver's posts come to an end for another year, and it's time to turn the transmitters off for a little lubrication. If you want further entertainment after closedown, do join me at Katy and Kyle's bash tonight. But from Iain T. Weaver, it's time to wish you a good night, a happy new year, and ask you to take 40 seconds listening to the link below. an them

Well, I was flicking around the channels late Christmas night, looking for something interesting to watch before sleeping, when I found Channel (5)'s most interesting programme in their 21 months on air. A complete, total, blank screen. Hopefully, this is a taste of things to come, instead of them showing dozens of cheap imports and even cheaper chat shows hosted by such noted intellectuals as Melinda Messenger. For those in foreign parts, Messenger rose to fame a couple of years ago as a topless model, and has since branched out into showbiz. Her chat show isn't much cop, but (apparently) she makes a couple of good points each edition.

[That's enough Carry On - Ed]

the gmtv2 fishtank

Roman. [hugs].

Betsy makes me choke on my coffee
I have bigger breasts than I thought! Yay! Tell me how awesome that is.
More awesome than Eric Cartman's singing, but less awesome than Kenny McCormick's hospital bills.

Britt remembers
Ewan McGregor was his usual droolworthy self in Emma.
What she's not seen is Ewan's appearance on BBC Music Is Good in 1991, with his hand stuck up a French Horn. Doesn't look at all like the same person.

And Britt's oneliners remind me of some more
Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.
Utterly true. A former presenter of the UK's lottery draw show (15 minutes, twice a week. I pay my license fee for this?) recently said that you have as much chance of winning the lottery if you don't buy a ticket as if you do.

And then there's the work syndicate (of which I'm not a part). It's been going for 14 draws now, and has an expected win of about 11 quid [from a stake of 70...]. Total income: nil.

Bron: There is no way on the planet that I'm going to send any underwear. Sorry, but there are just some things that are so above and beyond the call of duty. This is one of them.

Priestess Cory
I'm being proud of my body.
Ding! Good call! Hurrah!

Those of you in the UK (is that anyone?) may wish to tune your sets to ooo4 at 8:30 this evening, to see Claire's big screen breakthrough, "Little Women". Or you may wish to watch the history of kids tv on BBC Choice (England only).

Just when you think you're over the worst, comes a bolt from the blue, and everything falls apart again. We're moving into ego-zone. Bail out now, if you wish. Here's the exit line:

Codsall: cloudy & 7 * The Bash Street Kids for the Booker!

more on this story from the telegram.

he refuses to move on with his.
He is unable to make progress. He is feeling like jumping out of a window just thinking about the situation. He is on medication for depression over this whole matter.

I don't take responsiblity for how he feels.
Who started this? Who set in motion the train of events that's led here? Who decided that quit was a better option than change?

But then, there's a double standard at work. She's allowed to change; he's not.

(I was living with [parents] then and they decided that he couldn't stay), something that he holds me financially responsible for as he chose to cancel his trip.
There's the little matter of an agreement. Concerning accommodation. Which someone reneged on. That strikes me as a teensy-weensy breach of contract type thing.

As I see it, a promise is a promise. Whether that's something trivial, like getting a pint of milk, or something major, like accommodation in a foreign country. Something short-lived, or something that lasts forever. A promise is a promise, and I remain bound by mine. Such are the perils of having a sense of honour, but I wouldn't live with myself any other way.

Doesn't mean he can say things to insult me and threaten my health. He has no right to do that.
What's sauce for the goose...

look at just about any post from the first half of december.

He offered the chance to stop the sniping on the list (among other things) if I agree to other requests that he has.
For you edification, here's the main part of the mail:

I grit my teeth and acknowledge that you're otherwise taken, and liable to remain so for the forseeable future, and that it's not my place to disrupt that. I stop consulting solicitors to recover that air fare.

[you] admit that I exist, and don't necessarily belong in a black hole. Accept that I do still care for you, and that your absence is a significant part in my existance. That if you come into a million dollars by legal means, you'll send a thousand my way. And that you'll send the postage you did promise to return Bette (Gawsh, a whole 1.02 pounds...)

We both stop sniping at the other through our list posts. If there must be war, at least have it out in the open.

A thousand dollars is the current value of wasted air tickets, as discussed above. Bette is a stuffed turtle, who spent a very happy year with me before returning in a padded cell; the mail charge was promised, but never delivered.

Effectively, I'm asking for a piffling amount of money, and a stop to all this ill-feeling. Something to give some closure to the whole situation. Something that might let me move on.

And I'm sorry to have to bring this back onto the list; but if there's ever going to be a solution, it requires both sides to talk to each other. That can't happen if one party closes their ears to the other.

If there's anyone still reading this, I'd be obliged if you could pass this part on to the originator, adding any comments you think fit. Thanks in advance.

Iain * as above

yes, a tribute to john masefield's story...

And [hugs] to Chelle, and her friend and family. Out of darkness, hope is born. Or something.

Sara
we don't defend each other anymore. We just try to ignore it.
Is it rolling-over ignoring it; haven't-a-clue-what-you're-on-about ignoring it; or responding-to-this-would-only-lend-the-original-post-validity ignoring it? Count me in column C.

Someone writes a fighting post, insulting people, and you know what we do? We lie over and we take it.
Do we? I think just about everyone here knows that most of the claims contained are a complete load of bull. And there are only so many times we can collectively say it.

If someone writes a post insulting someone, and lying about someone, we should defend that person.
In the event that someone brings some new evidence into the debate, I'll listen and react accordingly. Unless and until that happens, I'm staying well out of it. And I've seen nothing new happen since the beginning of June.

100%, the world's cheapest quiz (© shim 1998)

Nieske
(I'm from the Netherlands) (=some cold rainy little country in Europe)
A Brit writes: harrumph. For the geographically- challenged, go to the bottom right bit of England, then go a bit further right. You'll end up in the Netherlands, with The Most Fine Information In North-West Europe.

Andrea
Tonight we are going to another Hawks game.
Stuff the Coyotes! Yay!

Sade
Call me crazy but I really love Wham's "Last Christmas"
OK... you're crazy. And - well - for my money, Wham! had peaked with their previous release, "Freedom", and wouldn't scale those heights again till "The Edge of Heaven" at the very end of their career together. And the end of Andrew Ridgeley's career forever (:

Which leads neatly into Laura's question
what are your top ten cd's of 1998?
I'm going to be very nasty here, counting down 10-2...
10) "Pieces of You" - Jewel.
9) "The Space Between Us" - Craig Armstrong. The bloke responsible for most of the music from "Romeo + Juliet".
8) "Left of the Middle" - Natalie Imbruglia.
7) "Women and Song" - various artistes.
6) "23am" - Robert Miles. Got it for four quid, worth the usual 14.
5) "A Box of Dreams" - Enya. All four albums in one box.
4) "Adore" - Smashing Pumpkins.
3) "Death to the Pixies". Being young again...
2) "Titanic" - James Horner, Sissel, LSO. Was there a movie to go with this, or something?
The Number One album will be revealed on weaver.radio's End Of 1998 Show on Tuesday next.

Sidebar to consider keyoneohthree's comments he blamed the poor sales of Adore on the FANS!!!
Um, who else is there to blame? If, indeed, blame should be cast? I don't see reason for that; the album didn't sell as well as "Mellon Collie", partly coz it's less accessible to The Casual Punter, and partly coz it is so different from their previous work. So, yeah, I blame the punters.

And, although no-one bothered asking, my Top Ten Songs. Not featured (coz it was a #1 in 97) is the song I've heard every week this year, Natalie's "Torn". The opening chords still make me go "Whoo!" Anyway. That Top Ten:
10) "Ghetto Superstar" - Pras Michel, ODB, Mya. Makes listening to an old country track much more interesting.
9) "Sonny Came Home" - Shawn Colvin. Grammy, anyone?
8) "If You Buy This Record (Your Life Will Be Better)" - The Tamperer featuring Maya. Madge's old "Material Girl" turns into a fa-fa-fa-fabulous record. The group's also behind the Hook Of The Year.
7) "Dis Oui" - Melanie Kohl. Belgium's entry into Eurovision, the recipient of my vote, and the favourite of Billboard's Fred Bronson.
6) "Avenging Angels" - Space. Just, like, so cool.
5) "How Do I Live?" - Leann Rimes. You know this one.
4) "I Don't Wanna Miss A Thing" - Aerosmith. And this.
3) "Adia" - Sarah McLachlan. This too, I expect.
2) "Closing Time" - Semisonic. I know who I want to take me home.
And, again, you'll have to tune in Tuesday to find out the chart topper.

Nate, hello, welcome.

Johnathan
Even if you find "the exact right woman", if they don't want you, or if life managed to break you two apart, then she just wasn't the "one, true love".
Oh yes she is! [/panto_season]

from the description, it sounds like it is never going to happen.
Never say never...

And, you'll never know if there was anyone else out there unless you look.
This is, of course, assuming that I actually want to find someone else. I'm really not sure that I do. And that's on a level beyond not wanting to be hurt again. It's on a genuine "better off on my own" slightly anti- social, slightly defensive, mainly not wanting to get involved with something I think cheap and tawdry. Like a relationship that's purely physical.

Thanks for the wishes...

Cheeks
You've gotta love the echos of tiny little beeps around the hall as people time the Head on his speech :)
Ah, bleeping watches can be covered so easily with a slight cough. And, of course, these days some watches don't actually have a bleep.

Everyone is going to believe the established school than the little kid. The kid can claim his bad marks are his teacher's fault for not teaching him to an adequate standard, but the teacher with the backing of this well respected school say otherwise, and one would be inclined to believe them.
Without even making discreet enquiries? Or looking at the published reports, or having a word in the Head's ear? Give it a go; you won't lose more than your time, and you'll gain confidence in standing up to piss-poor authority figures.

Boxing Day which I know they don't have in the US
Really? That's weird. What's the thinking there? Everyone else does it (right?)
Yes, all the major former English colonies celebrate Boxing Day. Except the damned Yankees, who think it's a great day for working. Boxing Day, incidentally, takes its name from the custom of allowing partridges to be taken (and put in a box) while the land owner was out with the fox hunt. It's also why the True Love gets A. Partridge; the significance of A. Pear-Tree escapes me.

When we live in a society where 8 is equal to 135, I shall be happy.
Cheeks, when are you opening up a store? Coz I can buy $135 of goods, and only be charged $8. Sweet!

If you'll excuse me, there's an Hour of Animaniacs just starting. Those are the facts.

Codsall: cloudy & 11 * And a happy Christmas to you.

First, Eli returned. Then came Kent, and Brandy. Now Lixz is back amongst us. Yay-whoo!
I am cute. wouldn't you know it?
We knew it before, we know it now, we'll know it till the end of time. Or until Cincinnati wins the Stupor Bowl.

Nieske, hello there.

Ali reports
if anyone wants to catch up on a soap, you can go to soapdigest and they'll help. They have a section on each soap - what happened that day summary, and they also can bring you back to the past, and let you know what happened each year
So, I went there, wondering what they'd make of Kate's celebration of the Winter Solstice in Monday's episode of "The Archers". Nothing. OK, maybe that's a bit too up-to-date for them, they might only listen to the Sunday omnibus edition. So, look for some information about the Death Watch Beetle currently threatening the very structure of Grey Gables. Not a flicker. The failure that Larry Lovell's version of "Cinderella" will be compared with the roaring success of the 1996 version? Not so much as a peep. In fact, there's nothing on "The Archers" at all. Nor "EastEnders", "Brookside" or "Family Affairs". Just dodgy programmes that crop up at 10am on Sky Oneviewer, or daytime filler on Channel Five.

Roman
I told my friend Jessie I think I'm in love with her. And she reacted...calmly. It was pretty much just like "Ok, thanks for telling me" she didn't jump into my arms like I would have liked, but at least she didn't run away screaming.
You see? She doesn't think that you're any form of freak just coz you have feelings for her. And you're honest and confident enough to be able to tell her that. Three cheers for you!

The very much returned Lixz reports how she's been spending her time
I was just on a long rant against those feminists who are pro-censorship of porn
This is a topic that has me somewhat torn. On the one hand, I know that it's degrading to all concerned, and cannot be held totally innocent from blame for all the crimes of that nature. On the other hand, it is a method of expression that is valid, no matter how much I dislike it.

Hey, Lixz, haven't you been on (and off) for two years now? Doesn't that entitle you to put "Overlooked Old Tymer" in your sig?

Sasha, welcome back.
*then* it is Boxing Day which I know they don't have in the US
Strange people. Denying themselves a holiday like that.

more on the world's greatest game: cricinfo.

and this year I have vowed not to get sunburnt like I always do
Well, you could always listen to Aggers, Blowers, Dr NO and the rest of the gang on Test Match Special over here. No danger of sunburn: coverage starts at midnight and ends at sunrise.

Sara. Ouch. It's obvious that you're bored out of your mind, and it's really not being helped by the mad Eurocentric vision of Rev. Blair and his cronies. Head, meet wall.

Some people think that Toby should be my life, and that if he isn't, I'm a bad mother.
In which case, these people must be sought out and destroyed. If they don't have the basic decency to allow someone to make herself happy, then they don't deserve much.

I want to be a good mother. I do. but you know what? I really have my doubts that I am.
Well, I'm never going to be a mother (shockingly!), but you're infinitely better than I'd ever claim to be. Indeed, I would suggest, from what I've seen, that you're better than some of my contemporaries who do have offspring.

people are telling me that youc an't do that, and if you do, you don't love your kids, and you're a terrible parent.
Blah blah blah blah blah. I bet they can say that without moving their lips, or using their minds at all. They also say that you can go blind if you do that...

by acting dumb, I got the guys attention. I'm not sure why. Guys, can you explain this?
I can't personally: dumb just gets me annoyed, and more likely to move away. But it might be because you're finally working on a similar intellectual level to the guy...

people lying about me, really really bothers me.
A hearty "hear, hear" from this member. Misrepresentation is bad. And permit me to add this: I'm not aware of a single time when Sara has deliberately misrepresented anything. I wish I could say the same of other active contributors to these threads.

A little light relief. Jennifer
Gopher squeaked (or whatever sound comes out of one's mouth)
Ah, you recall Gopher from his previous existance as a children's TV presenter, alongside a glove puppet called Phillip Schofield. Squoke all the time, totally ran the show. And dead cool, too. Whatever happened to him?

Ali again
you can't rely on someone else to make you happy. [..] that you weren't happy before, and were using them to make you happy.
This strikes me as denying other people a chance to be happy in their own way. Why go around spreading unhapiness just because you don't like the way it's happening? Why not bite the bullet and let people live the way they want to live?

holding on to a relationship, not giving up love for someone and generally continuing as tho you're still together, when the other person has moved on, can really hurt the person that you profess to still be in love with. Like a lot.
Evidently speaking from theory there; but do consider that it might be the only possible way for the other person to get out at all.

Mark, Johnathan, thanks for your thoughts. It appears that everything is predicated around these assumptions of J's
That our relationship, however wonderful it had felt, was not true love. [..] That the relationship wasn't fated to be, that your love wasn't perfect, that when you thought you had found the person you wanted to spend you life with, you were wrong.
I know that there are people out there who want me to believe this. But it's not going to happen, because it just doesn't apply for me. None of it. Heck, I've found the exact right person for me, felt the hand of destiny pushing me on to spend the rest of my life with her. And it hurts like hell for that to be tampered with by forces over which no-one has any control.

While I'm still (just) holding back the tears, I'll salute Bronwyn, who is able to give the appearance of happiness, and retire to have a brief blubber party with Shana. In the interim, here's the test card and some music.

[draw test card here]
[hum a bit here]

[continuity announcer]
More weaver posts later in the week.

Brum: wet & 6

owing to problems at hotmail, this didn't hit the list till the 21st.

weaver.radio

On Tuesday morning, Laura wrote
my mail server at work is really messed up right now
It's not alone. Laura's mail hit the list 18:33 UTC Tuesday, joined the queue for Digest Bus #1094, which left the terminal just over 4 hours later. However, owing to some major road-works on the Information Stuporhighway (I think they're putting in traffic lights on the Hangar Lane Gyratory System, or something), it didn't arrive in my inbox till 12 noon Friday. Judging from the sand in the shoes of some of the letters, it looks as though they've been on a quick vacation round the test cricket grounds, decided to miss the rain in Dunedin and the fog in Faisalabad, and figured that they'd better arrive before I really miss them. So, apologies for missing any obvious topics between then and now.

Sara defines the line between supporting something in theory, and supporting it in practice.
I AM for the death penalty, but I wouldn't want any innocent people to get killed.
In which case, you would keep it on the statute book, but never use it. Not even DNA evidence is 100% certainty of guilt. It's very close, but it's not a unique match. Not even a signed confession: that's what trapped the Birmingham 6 and the Guildford 4, albeit after some days of police beating them about the head.

Bron has a dilema
when i graduate i'm gonna be in wales or boston!!
Wales, or Boston. Wales ... or Boston... I dunno, it kinda reminds me of a take-off of Doctor Who's Daleks. The upturned pepperpots with a sink-plunger and a ray-gun coming out of the front, whose cry was "Exterminate", but should have been "Death ... Or Plumbing".

But I digress. Other things being equal, I think it comes down to which place has the better course. If that's UoW Aber, I can promise a warm welcome. If it's Harvard, I can promise warm wishes.

the other part of me says, you need to move on with your life, you can't hold your breath forever,
It's odd: I have no part of me saying anything of the sort. Moving on is so not an option.

8/8/99 being my figured wedding date. chosen not to confuse anyone no matter which side of the atlantic they be.

So, the test signals coming from the St John's transmitters
the first hug that I'd gotten that made me feel like I was supported.
Nope, still as distorted a picture as ever. I'm sure that work will continue to provide a full-powered signal in the coming weeks.

Incidentally, some strange trade tests coming from the direction of Kent. They look promising.

Eli
I'm afraid so. Well, nobody's perfect. ;)
Hey, he's back! How to put a Welcome Back into a weaver post in one simple step.

If you could have great sex without a love relationship for the rest of your life, or if you could have a great love relationship without sex for the rest of your life,which would you choose?
Friendship more than sex. Any time.

Cheerleader for Chelsea Or Lazio, aye? ;)
No, cheerleader for the Norwegian side that are going to kick Chelsea's ass in the next round.

If Macaby Haifa will reach the final,
What do you mean, if?

there's a reasonable chance I'll go to England.
So, listie gathering in Brum early next May, peeps?

And lim (x-100%) that my g\f's bro and father will go.
Even better!

Hang on, there's, like, a girlfriend in all of this? After all the problems of last year?

I've been on the mscl list off and on (more off than on) since March 1996.
Brandy! Is Back! Hurrah!

Owing to major engineering works between here and Birmingham, and the suspension of all Saver tickets, I'll not be in London on January 2. Weaver.travels apologises for any inconvenience, and trusts that this will ensure all concerned have a significantly more pleasant day.

Codsall: sunny & 6 * @dopt of Sir Pat * keep Brian's calendar

Sara puts forward Someone Else's Argument
women should stay at home to take care of hteir kids, at least until they are able to go to school. Or the man.. either one staying home would be fine.
Oh dear. If all the working mothers stayed at home, then many of their jobs would simply disappear. The whole country would be poorer, and lose economic advantage to areas that did have a lot of women working. And that would make a lot of people a lot less happy.

not that there's anything wrong with any of these fine places (ok, apart from clacton), but it's not where we were thinking of.

who wants to watch old 90210 reruns!!! they used to show htem over here..maybe they still do???? anyone know???
ZipCode? Try Sky One Viewer. (5) has rights to more early series, but have other plans some way into the new year.

Now, I was thinking about ways to cut down the cost of the 12 days of Christmas...
+ 12 Lords A'Leaping. Not a good start. Try using 12 democratically elected and totally representative of New Labour ^H^H^H^H^H the country members of the public.
+ 11 Ladies Dancing. Get one dancing lady, and surround her with mirrors. From the right angle, it'll look like 11.
+ 10 Pipers Piping, 9 Drummers Drumming. Replace with a Drum & Pipes CD.
+ 8 Maids a'Milking. Try using a milking machine.
+ 7 Swans a'Swimming. Does anyone know how to fold swans out of paper?
+ 6 Geese a'Laying. This goes out before 9pm, and we can't show a'Laying before that, Goose or not.
+ 5 Gold Rings. Five Internet Stocks would be better value, if past performance were anything to go by (which it's not).
+ 4 Calling Birds, 3 French Hens. Swap for one recording of something chirruping Les Marseillaises.
+ 2 Turtle Doves. Turtles are an endangered species; we'll never get that through customs, even if we disguise it as a dove.
+ A Partridge in a Pear Tree. Well, the best place for an Alan Partridge video is up a tree. Or anywhere where we won't find it in a hurry.

does anyone know of a good father ted site?

keyoneohthree
how about you get off of digest instead? then you CAN killfile.
No way, Jimmy. The digest is a perfect method of distribution for those who pay for their mail by the piece. Rather than pay for 125 little mails a day, they just shell out for half a dozen big ones. It's a lot easier to archive digests than direct mail, and each one arriving ensures that you can pull up a coffee and have something interesting to read at least until it cools down. Digests kick ass!

Jill asks
who would you rather date....BEN or NOEL??
Well, I may not be expecting to date either, but there's no way I'm dating Noel Edmonds.

Kevin
Too bad Eli's not here.
Indeed it is. In his absence, and as I'm the Acting Cheer-Leader, I should point out that Maccabi Haifa has been drawn at Lokomotiv Moscow in the Last Ever Cup Winners' Cup, avoiding favourites Chelsea and Lazio. The prospect of our favourite side playing at Villa Park in May gets that bit closer.

The ongoing crisis in the Gulf is fully covered on all good news networks, and BBC News 24. It's amazing to find the way that one of the new news stations has been able to sponsor this operation; if we weren't careful, we could be hearing about Operation Desert MSNBC.

more spinning news

Sara
I might have a problem transferring my classes/points (do you guys get points?) over to an American school when I do go home.
Indeed, you might. The basic plan is that you would enrol for a basic programme, and specialise within that in later years. There's no real concept of transferring points or class passes between institutions: indeed, it's very rare for someone to move from one uni to another without starting again. Grades, passes, and honour levels are all decided by the last set of exams you take.

In my last substantive post, I wrote
uncomfortable is the bedrock of this list.
By which I meant that this is a place where people post about matters that make them feel uncomfortable. They can do that in an open manner, secure that no-one will come along and wallop them over the head with a rubber hammer. I didn't mean that this list was an uncomfortable place to be. There are ways it could be, but I don't see it that way.

That person thought it was critical to murder someone else, what right do they have to life after that?
Plenty. They live; they have a right to stay that way. Indeed, it can be something of a punishment to keep someone alive; one needs only think of prisoners on hunger strike who would be able to claim a posthumous victory if they were allowed to pass on.

Now, Cheeks wrote something good (fishes around) Ah, here. But if say, you're with friends from another school who are smoking, or perhaps your parents are smoking out the front of Speech Night (is that something you do anywhere else?)
Yes, indeed. How can one forget the Annual Sweepstakes run on the Length of the Head's Speech. Never got within three minutes of the result, but that's life. Though our Speech Night was always in the sports hall, which is a distinctly non-smoking area.

We are literally walking billboards for them.
You have uniform, I assume. Coz if you don't, there's no way anyone unconnected with the school (Mrs Jones, the florist, perhaps) could know for certain that you're with Hoity Toity school, and not Reigh Laxed.

And I'm not a taxpayer?
I don't know; you tell me. My point is that you're taking more out of the system than you're paying in (unless you're very rich, in which case I'm sure half the list will be ringing you up looking for a date:) And, as a net consumer of a service paid by someone else, you're not in the strongest place to dictate terms. However, you are entitled to have your view considered.

Why should they respect only 13+?
I'm not saying that. Teachers must respect pupils of all ages; however, I don't think they can reasonably expect to be an equal to a pupil under about 13.

As long as they provide the service satisfactorily, but if they don't?
If your concerns are justified, outsiders would be reasonably sympathetic. Even an influential outsider, say your Parliamentary rep, or your town councillor. They want your vote, and would at least provide the POV of an outsider.

On the Beatles
Ka goo ga choob? Pure brilliance!
Coo-coo-ca-choo? Total trash, especially as we can't agree what it is they're mumbling.

And on electoral systems
College system?
Oh, some bizarre American invention, in which the states carry a number of votes roughly in proportion to their population. Or something like that.

Yay Westminster system! Yay compulsory voting! *glance at Iain*
[glance back]
Westminster system. Ah yes, the one that was used in last month's Quebec provincial election. 42% of the vote goes to the federalist Liberal party. 41% goes to the separatist Parti Quebecois. The PQ win 71 of the 115(ish) seats.

Brum: sunny, rain later, 9 * Sunday: weaver.radio does Xmas

from the archives of slate magazine.

Christmas for Jews: How Hanukkah became a major holiday.

By David Greenberg

The holiday season is upon us. Not the "Christmas season" but the "holiday season"--a euphemism for "Christmas with Hanukkah (and, perhaps, Kwanzaa) thrown in." We festoon offices with blue and silver Hanukkah decorations alongside Christmas trimmings, and on the Sesame Street Christmas special, Big Bird wishes Mr. Hooper a Happy Hanukkah.

The problem, as any rabbi will tell you, is that Hanukkah has traditionally been a minor Jewish festival. It celebrates the miracle in which, according to lore, a day's worth of oil fuelled the candelabra of the Jews' rededicated temple for eight days. Until recently, this observance paled next to the High Holy Days, Passover, and even Purim. So how did it become "the Jewish Christmas"? And is this good for the Jews?

First, Christmas had to become Christmas, which originally wasn't a big deal in America. The Puritans who settled Massachusetts made it a crime to celebrate the holiday. Only with the arrival of German immigrants after the Civil War did it emerge as the major American feast. With the revolution in retailing--marked by the rise of department stores and advertising--celebrations focused on throwing parties, buying and giving gifts, and sending greeting cards.

Enter the Jews. Around 1900, millions of eastern European Jews came to the United States, congregating in urban enclaves such as New York's Lower East Side. Most adopted American traditions, including the newly secularized Christmas. Jews installed Christmas trees in their homes and thought nothing of the carols their children sang in the public schools.

The second generation of American Jews challenged this embrace of a festival that, despite its secular trappings, was fundamentally Christian. But parents couldn't very well deprive their kids of gifts or seasonal merriment, and Hanukkah benefited from convenient timing. Instead of giving the traditional "gelt," or money, Jews celebrated with presents, so as not to fall short of their Christian neighbours. Prominent religious leaders, more secure with maintaining a Jewish identity in America, now urged schools to let Jews abstain from Yuletide celebrations or to provide all-purpose holiday parties instead. Lighting the menorah proved a satisfying alternative to adorning a tree with colourful lights.

Zionism, which gathered converts in the years before World War II, also boosted Hanukkah's stock. The holiday's emphasis on self-reliance and military strength in the face of persecution dovetailed with the themes of nationalists seeking to establish a Jewish state. The warrior-hero Judah Maccabee, leader of an ancient revolt, morphed into a proto-Zionist pioneer. Zionist organisations used the holiday as an excuse to prod individuals to donate coins to the cause, and later packed Madison Square Garden for Hanukkah fund-raising galas, featuring such keynoters as Albert Einstein and New York Gov. Herbert Lehman.

After World War II, as Jews moved with other Americans to suburbia, Hanukkah shored up its place as their No. 1 holiday. In the early '50s, in a famous Middletown-style study of a Chicago suburb referred to as "Lakeville," sociologist Marshall Sklare found that lighting the Hanukkah candles ranked as the most popular "mitzvah," above hosting a Passover Seder and observing the Sabbath. Sklare attributed the holiday's popularity to its easy accommodation to Christmas rituals as well as to its ability to be redefined for modern times. The Hanukkah lesson being taught, Sklare noted, was no longer reverence to God for performing a miracle but rather the triumph over religious intolerance--a perfect message for liberal America in the age of the civil rights movement.

These Ozzie and Harriet Jews also modified their observances for the 1950s home. As one historian has written, a Jewish guidebook from the era included recipes for " 'Maccabean sandwiches' composed of either tuna fish or egg salad and shaped to resemble a bite-sized Maccabee warrior, or the 'Menorah fruit salad,' a composition of cream cheese and fruit that, when moulded, resembled a menorah." By the late '50s, "Chanukah's accoutrements had grown to include paper decorations, greeting cards, napkins, wrapping paper, ribbons, chocolates, games and phonograph records." Like Gentiles, Jews extended gift giving to adults; the Hadassah Newsletter pointed out that "Mah-jong sets make appreciated Chanukah gifts." Parents could now assure children that Hanukkah wasn't a poor man's Christmas but was, in fact, a "better" holiday because it meant presents for eight days straight.

Since then, Jews have become more integrated into American life, and Hanukkah has embedded itself in television, office parties, Hallmark stores, Barnes & Nobles, and other leading American cultural institutions. Except among the Orthodox, it has been thoroughly transformed into a major festival. Accordingly, religious leaders lament this development as another instance of the Jews' perilous assimilation--if not into a Christian society then into a secular, commercial one.

Yet the recent evolution of Hanukkah represents not a capitulation to the forces of Christmas but an assertion of Jewishness amid a multicultural society. Just as Kwanzaa, created in 1966, has returned many black Americans to their African heritage, so Hanukkah has helped tether Jews to their heritage and in some cases has brought them back to the fold. In a 1985 study, journalist Charles Silberman recounted how the writer Anne Roiphe, besieged with angry letters after she wrote an article about celebrating Christmas as a Jew, switched to observing Hanukkah and found it far more meaningful. Likewise, Silberman noted, more American Jews than ever preferred Hanukkah to Christmas. In 1998, the adherence to a modest Jewish ritual such as celebrating Hanukkah follows in the tradition of the ancient Israelites, who spurned the pressures to adopt Hellenism. Indeed, in acculturating to America while maintaining a Jewish identity, observers of Hanukkah may well be doing Judah Maccabee proud.

The entire "school board" thing is not applicable world wide. In England, each school operates as a quasi- independent business, with income related to the number of pupils. Parents are allowed to express a preferance for which school their child attends, but the final decision on where they go is taken by the school. While 80% of the curriculum is imposed by the government (to come down to 50% by 2002), schools are at liberty to run themselves in the way that they think best.

Cheeks, [hugs]. Bron makes some excellent points; I can't add anything much to them.

Hmm. The whole jobs and money and training thing strikes something of a chord here. Now, I'm pretty cautious with my cash, and don't intend to start owing people more than I've got in the bank. Nor do I expect to spend huge amounts on fripperies without it being worth it, or having some fall-back to recover from if things go wrong.

I know I'm worth far better than I'm getting at the moment. But convincing people has never been my strong suit, and that's making things a little difficult. Still, even if I wind up taking a post-grad, I'll be able to do it at the rates available to UK citizens (also extended to husbands and wives, even if not otherwise eligable).

Sometimes, it all boils down to a choice. Between what one knows, what you're comfortable with and live with every day; and what will challenge and help one to grow. It's all very good being comfortable with no change, but is stasis always the best option? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

keyoneohthree suggests
If it gets to be too much, just kill-file the person like Kenneth and Angela kill-file me.
While superficially appealing, that's the cheap and easy way out. Closing your eyes and ears to the problem won't make it go away, it'll just make it worse for those who won't - or can't - ignore it. It's a false peace, and everyone killfiling knows it.

Just because you send someone's posts straight to the bin doesn't mean that anyone else does. Still less that they should.

Now, I can sympathise with people who want to cut out posts from anyone who has never made a positive contribution. I don't like it, I don't encourage it, but I can understand where they're coming from. But to chop someone out of your inbox just because they've raised issues that you'd rather not deal with, that they make you feel guilty, or just because you're scared of what they might say, is a fallacy on yourself. You're not changing the world, but running away from the real issues. If you know you're doing that, then it's your choice.

I can't put Keoni's posts in the category of abusive or defamatory. Merely uncomfortable, and uncomfortable is the bedrock of this list.

Quiet rejection can be just as powerful as open rejection, and i looks better.
Yet it's so totally dishonest. To set out to ignore any listie is wrong. Period. No matter who is doing it. It's a dis-service to the other person; they've put time and effort into their posts, and you might at least have the grace of hearing them out. And you just know that, sooner or later, you'll miss something wonderful.

Sara
I personally, am for the death penalty. what about you guys?
Against. Like, totally. The evidence from Britain is that murder fell after the abolition of hanging in the 60s. There's always a chance - albeit a slim one - of someone being wrongly convicted; 6 years in prison is bad, but infinitely better than being 6 feet underground. And it's fundamentally hypocritical. If an individual doesn't have the right to take someone's life, what right does the state have?

Brooks! You're a government bitch!
sorry to be a govonment bitch,
Well spotted (;

but the terms of members of the house and senate of the united states start on the third of january, not the 20th. That would be the presadent.
Or, in this case, whenever it is he's quitting. Anyway, thanks for the head-up; I'll stick to the British Constitution, one I know more of the details.

indeed, i've been in a relationship with a totally non-annoying person. someone not a gazillion miles from here.

compromise? even a little bit?

Its like not being able to go home again. You may have been happy with someone before, and feel that life would be perfect if you were with them again - but it won't be.
But is it right to throw away a chance of something good on the grounds that "I tried it and didn't like it totally last time"? Seems a particularly specious argument to me.

you can't go home again, you can't say that having someone will make you happy... cuz you have to make the happiness for yourself.
This is totally self-contradictory. Perhaps a certain someone is the best way to make yourself happy; that they have that certain spark that other people lack. And the effort of finding someone else to approximate that fails to be an equal struggle.

Bronwyn again
kiddies xmas specials. what's everyone's fave?
"Teletubbies Christmas". Teasing it all out over a full week's programming, and with appropriate plot development to allow Christmas Day to fall on any of the transmission days.

Just behind that, "The Snowman", S4C's leading animation, about a boy who flies with a snowman. Cuteness on film.

Many have started their journey home

Brum: cloudy & 11 * @dopter of Sir Pat * keeper Brian's calendar
weaver.radio's christmas records coming sunday...

Cheeks
if you so much as "associate" with smokers you're in serious danger of expulsion.
So, like, if your parents smoke (which is nothing to do with the school), then you're in deep deep trouble?! Is this place for real?

Indeed, what if one's teachers smoke? Can you get in trouble for associating with them?

Teachers are the EMPLOYEES of students, and should be treated accordingly.
Not really: teachers are the employees of the taxpayer, and should be participants in an equally respectful relationship, certainly with clients over (about) 13.

That's clients. Not customers, not pupils, but clients. The teachers are (supposed to be) providing a service; the clients really should treat them as equals.

A school is a place of education, of learning, not of growing up.
Technically accurate, but it's an unavoidable fact that the school's clients are growing up while they're using the service.

You should attend school to learn what is set on the curriculum, you should not go for a lesson in life because schools and teachers are not trained to provide this.
Religion teachers? Besides, can't "lessons in living" be provided through osmosis, by the whole curriculum?

Rules are required, but really should be kept to those that will benefit the learning experience. Like, no gum in lessons, coz that does put other people off; but no restrictions on what happens outside hours.

"iain" is the original scots-gaelic form of john; the irish is sean. "ian" is a bastardised english version, shorn of the extra i that gives the meaning.

Shana, then ~Laura
ye olde purple dinosaur (lol, i can't even bring myself to type his name! :P)
'the dinosaur formerly known as..."?
We're back to talking that old rock dinosaur Prince, aren't we (;

Heather (hello) throws down a great challenge
I dare someone to tell me a bad song by the beatles.
Let me start with "Yesterday". A sickly record that tries to limp along but trips over its own lassitude and falls flat on its face. A warning to the future about what an anodyne songwriter McCartney would turn into.

"I Am The Walrus". The playing is appauling. The lyrics make no sense, even under the influence of many illegal substances (or so I'm told).

"Free As A Bird". There are reasons why this was left on the shelf for 30 years, I'm sure. Not because it didn't fit into the rest of their ouvre, but because it's singular crap.

glenn tilbrook and jools holland, writing partners for late 70s group squeeze.

~Laura implores
As ali said, everyone get tested!!!!
Let me give a reason why I'm not going to follow this advice, sound as it may be. By testing for HIV, I'm agreeing with the suggestion that I'll be getting intimate with someone else during the remaining part of my life. As this proposition is provably false, I have no chance of spreading such an infection, and no desire to know whether this is the way I'll be making my exit. So, thanks for your concern, but I'm spending my time on other things.

The whole December religious festivals thing reminds me of one of Birmingham's commercial pushes for this year. It's "Winterval". A combination of all the religious festivals celebrated, plus one or two that they found in the back of the attic. Shame there's nothing to actually mark the solstice itself.

Stef, one of the Dot Warners of the list
My only drive to get up early to go to work is that I get to watch animaniacs just before I leave. I *love* animaniacs.
Till last week, the terrible three were on the Cartoon Network's 6am slot, just in time for my breakfast. Now, sadly, Animaniacs shifs to 11am, leaving me with nothing better than the Comedy wing of the BBC newsroom to watch. Heck, it's the station that can't read out a lottery result without messing up.

Johnathan
I don't care if the admins are actually serial killers, and are burying their victims in their back yards.
I knew there was a reason why Gopher and myself never went into Sara's back garden the other week. Evidently it was so that we wouldn't discover the rotting, decomposing bodies there. Of course, that it was piddling it down with rain and blinkin' cold and dark at the time doesn't enter the equation.

ACutler
it could be hotmail, but it might be mail list
It was hotmail. Normal service should now be restored, and my digests turned up early Saturday UTC.

Emily-the-Hunter, on Lixz
I'll let her know she's missed.
Thanks. Much obliged.

From the Hoax And Myth desk, correspondent Sara:
There is a new bill in US Congress that will be affecting all Internet Users.
The 106th Congress has now almost finished; the only Bill before it now is Clinton. Unless the Speakers recall each individual house, they'll dissolve on January 20 without meeting again.

This means that there are no bills at any stage of the legislative process, apart from those awaiting the President's signature.

cnn; all news, all day, every day.

Just summarise so far: a complete confuzzling about Bills in Congress, an undated and unverifiable report from a reputable news organisation. Doesn't smell good to me.

decide to allow or not allow a Charge to your (OUR)
Yours. Not mine.

phone bill equal to a long distance call each time you access the internet.
This is a blatant misrepresentation of the current state of affairs. Telephone companies - the Big and Baby Bells - are allowed to charge extra for calls to internet service providers. This is charged to the ISP, not the consumer (ie you). There have been rumblings to remove this charge, and my personal view is that it'll go fairly soon.

In the meantime, though, this is another hoax.

Bronwyn
you always have the option to killfile him
Not on the digests we don't. It's a case of come one, come all (but expect to come more than a little late, seeing as how they're now sent via Vermin Trains).

ACutler on cleaning
I hate it, but hate mess.. I just don't complain about it.
The Noo-Noo writes: [slurp] [suck] [slurp] [fold] [blow]

Betsy: Chicago 2, Toronto 3. Were you there? Did you get out alive?

Finally, let me mark the death of Lord Grade, the theatre and television impresario. He was the man behind the ATV company, and such projects as "Thunderbirds", "Jesus of Nazareth", the flop film "Titanic" and "The Muppet Show". His own epitaph: "I didn't want to go. And I'm not going".

Codsall: sunny & 10

Flix, or should I call you Emily?
its allmost been a WHOLE year since my dad has been gone and i think my mourning time should be over now...
Nay, nay, and thrice nay. If it still bugs you, it still bugs you. It won't stop just because you want it to; it'll stop because you've genuinely recovered from it. It may take weeks, months, or years. Don't let anyone blast you for taking longer.

its stupid if anyone wallows for their whole life....if they do then whats the point?
Good question. I don't know just yet, but may well file a report in a year or 60.

Angela on an ostrich
it was supposed to taste like beef but wasn't raised with hormones, didn't have the risk of mad cow disease, and was incredibly low in fat.
Tastes like beef, is hormone free, doesn't risk BSCJYDE, and is low in fat. It's the last one of them that eliminates the McDougal's Cardboard Burger.

Sara
I know that everyone is more critical of themselves, then others will be of them. But Why are we like that? Why?
Good question. Let me look at this the other way round. People who don't see themselves in a bad light - don't let themselves see themselves in a bad light. Don't they tend to be very egotistic, very annoying, and totally full of themselves? The sort of people it's easy to hate, hard to like, and damned impossible to ignore?

My take is that I'm a total perfectionist. If I can think of a better way to get the job done, I won't be happy. And, of course, perfection's something I'll get once in a blue moon. Of course, this leads to why I want everything to be perfect, and that's a whole other post.

I suppose if we had an International Rock N Roll Quiz of the list, I could make it as the British representative. There aren't that many things I don't know. But too many, as well.

these would be the returning bron and shim, both back from who purdah.

And this from
a one woman show this week, except the set is experiencing some nerve wracking problems.~*
{limb.lower.right=break}.else.{limb.lower.left=break}

Jill
My school just made two new rules. they seem to be making a lot of new rules this year.
Is there a new head, a new deputy? Has there been negative publicity, or is one of the other schools in your area doing well? It's clear that The Powers That Be feel they're under threat in some way, and aren't presenting themselves as well as they might, and this is their way of trying to cover their butts.

if a teacher thinks you smell like smoke you get in trouble
So, what about those members of staff who smell like smoke? Do they get into trouble?

If a teacher hears a student use profane language they get an automatic detention.
So there will be a lot of teachers staying behind, then. If I got a detention everytime I heard a pupil use profanity, I'd be in there for the next six years.

We can not say "this sucks" or anything to that effect. "sucks" is a bad word apparently.
That is beyond the pale, quite frankly. Do they not want you to debate the great political issues of the day, or just President Clintern's impeachment proceedings? Coz if "to suck" is acceptable language in a Congressional hearing, it's fine in schools. The Prez Sez So.

At my school people use the word "gay" a lot. not seriously meaning homosexual. we just use it like "this assignment is so gay"
Very open to misinterpretation. Think about people who hear you guys talk on the way to and from classes; they don't know your context, may err, and go whinging to the head about his offensive pupils blah blah blah. Wrong, but a fact of life.

also can't say "retarded" like "god i am so retarded!"
A similar argument applies.

Personally, I'd be standing ground on use of "sucks". That's bringing the rest of their policy into disrepute, and could easily (with a little leak to the media) bring the negative publicity that the school's trying to avoid back on their heads.

Emily - the one in NYC - reminds us of
What school do u go to?: hunter college high school
So you do. How is Lixz these days? The Wrigley Field Fan Club is slightly bored without her. Yes, I am.

Buffy comes to the BBC on December 30. Not a second too soon.

Games to play in Shim City. I hope you'll all be participating in a few rounds of "Countdown", with Mark as Richard Whitely of the sparkling wit and ferret, shim as Susie Dent, and someone else as the Vord at the Board.

Sara
christians are the majority of all religions....
In strict numerical terms, Christians - in all branches - are the largest single religion. I think that they have an absolute majority - more than all the others combined - of monotheistic religions. That's those religions that acknowledge a single creator, as opposed to the Hindu multiple creators.

Quoting me

On a scale of politicians, you rank somewhere around John Major. Often misunderstood, but fundamentally honest.

people misunderstand what I'm saying, simply because I'm saying it in a way that I understand..and not in a way that everyone else will understand.
Oddly enough, I reckon I can empathise a lot with that. Ooky.

Gender separation in the army;
they could always do men and women separtely...I don't see a problem with that. at least that way, women would have the opportunity to go to the front line, instead of being held back from it.
Pretty much the point I was making.

Prince changed his name?
Yeah, to some squiggle, which became known as "The Artist Formerly Known As Prince". And then to "The Artist". Or, to use the full title, "The Artist, formerly known as The Artist Formerly Known As Prince". Which contracts neatly to TAFKA-squared-Prince, completely defeating the point he was trying to make.

~Laura
I feel like daffy and bugs "its rabbit season!"
"no, its duck season!"
Wabbit season.
Duck season.
Wabbit season.
Rabbit season. [with a kinked eyebrow]
Duck season.
Rabbit season.
Duck season.
Elmer season.

Mighty Max prickles. Here's three from me, to go with the one in Sunday's post.
+ Pineapple sundaes with a bunch of people I've never met, at 10pm in an otherwise deserted mall, feeling totally and utterly at home.
+ A clear, crisp morning, that slightly crunches underfoot.
+ Opening my mail to find writings from our very own Laa-Laa of the Desert nestling alongside one from Tim Page, manager of Wolverhampton's kick-ass station 107.7 The Wolf. He chooses his company well!

Much more and I'll wind up really down.

Sara asks Ross:
if you think you know so much, I'll ask you something simple. name the fifty states!!
Aah, if only you had added "and their capitals", we could have had an Animaniacs moment. "Wakko's America", anyone?

Sasha
Kay.... question... how do you spell Ian Zeiring Name?
It's Iain.
Mmm, you rang? Umm, oh, this has utterly nothing to do with me, but someone else of a similar (but, on this occasion, sadly misspelt) name.

Back to sleep, then.

Brum: wet & 11 * keeper of Brian's calendar

Let the format wars begin! Angela, then Cheeks Wombat.
I wish there was a magic way you could all shoot me your fave songs and I could hear them all and love them all and revel in them!
*cough* mp3 *cough*
It's also possible to use the real audio encoder. A free version is available from the real audio web site, www.real.com. Without this, weaver.radio would not exist.

JSRS
how many Listees have posted messages whilst they were drunk?
I've not, but I reckon about 8% of the list has. That's - ooh - 15 people?

Do you know the joys/madness of having to use the delete key once for every three keys you press?
Yes, but thay's cox I'm a crop typew.

Do you know the joy/madness of thinking you make sense, only to cringe two days later when you see the responses to your posts?
Every single time! Every single time!

And how many of you will responde to my drunken stupor here?
[raises hand]

Mark
how I miss the fact that I can't watch Neighbours everyday
I asked my ma, an ardent "Neighbours" fan, to fill me in on the plot developments for the past three months. She sniggered, tittered, and rolled about on the floor for a few minutes. I think that suggests you've missed absolutely nothing.

Incidentally, Carol Vorderman has signed for another five years of Countdown. She'll be paid 5 million quid for 1170 episodes - a rate of over 4273 quid a show. That's 273 pounds for holding up the letters and working out the numbers, and 4000 danger money for putting up with Richard Whiteley's puns.

Sara learns
chocolate things can be yummy
Can be? Shome mishtake shurely! Maybe "chocolate things are yummy".

Another day with Ross :) and Toby :) and they mean everything to me.
For those of you that haven't spent time with that threesome, this is a Clearly, Blindingly Obviously True Statement. It took me about a milli- second to figure that one out.

Johnathan
I had always heard that "bless you" after a sneeze came from an old belief that evil spirits could enter you when you sneezed, and that the "bless you" was to protect you from them.
I kinda thought that it arose from the time of the great plague, when sneezing was one of the early symptoms. "Bless you and deliver you from the plague!" was the sentiment.

Nichole
the song I knew by Breath was "How Can I Fall"
From the dark recesses of my mind, I think that was kinda good. Only, I've not heard it in something like 10 years, so it may not be as good as I thought it was.

I still think "How Can I Fall" was more played then that one [g]
I'll take your word on that. "Hands to Heaven" was their one and only hit here, sadly.

Now, back when Breathe were coming up, so were Brother Beyond. Whatever happened to them?

Laura reminds me of a track called
Satellite - DMB
Tell me, is that a cover of the Hooters' 1987 track of the same name... "Go jump in the river and learn to swim / God's gonna wash away all your sins / And if you still can't see the light / God's gonna buy you a satellite". A track about those late 80s icons, televangelists. Whatever happened to them? Oh, they all ended up in jail, didn't they.

Speaking of classic tracks, the Wombles have postponed their big comeback, delaying the re-release of "Wombling Merry Christmas" till next year. They didn't fancy having to take on the Spice Girls this year. Shame they'll bump into the Teletubbies next year...

Mark
Weaver.radio - also known as Nostalgia FM??
Darling, this is digital radio. From the moment it exits the video recorder to the moment it hits your computer's loudspeakers, it's totally digital. Extracts from real radio stations are digital all the way. Besides, dull old analogue FM is so 20th century.

But I just knew the content would hit the right notes. Glad you liked it. Feel free to share.

All this talk of palindromic birthdays reminds me of a few things. My own birthday is 111 - the slash depends which side of the Atlantic you're on. One of my colleagues at work has been having a thing of spotting times that are the same hour and minute, such as 10:10 or 17:17. I seem to have caught a variant of that; my season tickets expire on Saturday, 12/12; the box of cornflakes I finished yesterday morning are up on 9/9/99, their replacement on 11/11/99. And the date 8/8/99 features somewhere in all this as well.

Round, all around the world...

Brum: rainy & 11 * keeper of Brian's calendar, sponsored by NFL refsf

weaver.radio (the redirector)

the link to the site is missing for reasons explained in the text

they ask questions about your diet, health and stress levels and calculate what your age is mentally and physically. Then it gives suggestions on how to lower it
Buying into the suggestion that we're all imperfect, and have to improve in all sorts of ways. Whatever happened to "you're so fine as you are. Don't change a thing on my account"?

For information purposes, I scored just over 13% higher than my clock age. Most of that's coz their scoring system doesn't recognise the validity of online friendships. Hey, that's you guys!

And Sunshine
Shana~ who will now go cry in her tea
I don't f***in' care what that computer says. You're well neat. Anyone who knows what tea is, is. [hugs]

Gopher
It said my Realage was 40.67, but I'm 32.13 in reality. Actually, I don't feel either!
Mmm, I'd say circa 28. Just don't ask me for the numbers after the decimal point, k?

~Laura
What is your favorite holiday song?
Umm, "Walking on Sunshine", followed by "Summer Holiday". Oh, you mean Christmas song. "Grab your Balls like Michael Jackson".

Do you think Angela realized that Joy was an angel?
No. Angela's innocent enough not to need that kind of stimulus.

This part of the post has been self-censored in an attempt to reduce the amount of trolling on the list. Fa-la-la-la-la-la-la.

ACutler on AlanisM
I've see the one with 'Too Hot' on it down at a second hand cd store if you want me to check it out for you...
Gee whizz, I knew I'd forgotten something from last time I was over. If I remember correctly, this CD has been awaiting a buyer for at least two years. Shows how in demand her early work is. Of course, many people think her early work was her best, and who am I to call them wrong?

DOES YOUR FIRST INITIAL SUIT YOU?
According to this, not in the slightest. Of course, that could be because I compared six letters: my real three initials, and three other letters picked out at random. The best fit was K, a letter that does not appear within a mile of my name.

Chelle
"hands to heaven" by breathe (i think.. i dunno.. anyone?)
"Tonight I need your sweet caress. Hold me in the darkness." It was Breathe's one and only hit.

Shana (storm), welcome back.

~Laura contributes
No Sex Please, We're Married
The same morning, there's a new survey out. Apparently, the Womyn of 1999 will not be dating. Staying in, vegging out on the sofa and doing the housework is top priority. And certainly not having sex.

One wonders: where the hell do they get these people from? Looking at my circle of friends and acquaintances, this is no more common than usual.

"humph" here is humphrey lyttleton, chair of i'm sorry i haven't a clue.

~Laura inadvertantly forwards some bad science.
nuclear fusion occurs when two separate elements, like hydrogen and helium, are forced together.
Well, no it doesn't. Nuclear fusion can happen with nothing more than two heavy hydrogen nuclei (1 proton + 1 neutron) combining to form one helium nucleus (2 protons + 1 neutron) and a spare neutron.

Through the exertion of extreme pressure and temperature, a surge of energy as powerful as the sun is suddenly released
LOL! The amount of energy released is of the order of 0.000 000 000 000 05 joules. It takes 100 joules to light a 100 watt bulb for one second. If we could store the energy from all these reactions and use it at once, and ran one billion such reactions a second, we would get less than 16 seconds of light per year. That's how insignificant the amounts of energy are on an individual basis - and also why nuclear fusion has never worked commercially.

This is how new stars are created.
No, no, no. That's a completely separate process, known to Mr I. Newton of Cambridge as "gravity". Once the gravitational pull is strong enough, the pressure and temperature become strong enough to start the fusion process.

On a broader point, this example shows just how little science is taught and explained. That a zillion-selling book can get away with talking scientific hogwash says something about society, and it's not a very positive message.

Onwards. ACutler suggests
Who do people say you look like? people who know dad say mom, people who know mom say dad
I'd suggest she looks most like her sister.

i want to have people I love near me... and those I don't to not bother me for a while.
Maybe it might be advisable to try to make some sort of peace with them. They may not be amenable to it, but there's not a huge amount to lose.

I really love Geri Halliwel... She was my favorite spice, and now, I think that her cry of 'Womyn Power' shows that she did and does belive in the cry 'Girl Power'.
Indeedytoodlies. The official line portrayed her as Ginger Spice, but looking at the way the remaining four have turned into a four-part harmonies group, she may be more Action Spice, or Maverick Spice. Someone getting things done.

Shes beautiful, and a strong womyn to belive in and follow...
Something suddenly struck me; the memory of the Trollope of Wales (dead). Only, Geri has a mind of her own and she's not afraid to use it. And she's known for more than her looks. Both are magnets for press attention, and know it, but Geri is honest enough to say she's doing this deliberately.

And, of course, one can't forget the part the Spice Girls played in forcing Britain out of its media-imposed melancholy and back to having some fun, with the irresistable call-and-response of their finest single yet, "Spice Up Your Life!"

Our favourite Cheeky Wombat and I seem to be having a bit of an irreconcilable difference. I'll make one last swing, then expect to be done.
The majority of VOTERS are upper class when voting is NOT mandatory.
There's no evidence in Australia to back this up, owing to the mandatory voting rule. There's evidence to directly contradict this from Britain, where the middle/upper class Conservative vote stayed home to express their discontent with the party, rather than vote Labour.

If voting is not compulsory, then the majority of voters are rich.
This is a heavily disputed point.

If more rich people vote than poor people then you have a rich people's government.
This would appear logical, but may make an assumption too far: not least that there's a realistic alternative that isn't going to favour the already rich.

If you have a rich people's government then the rich get richer and the poor get poorer,
Again, a slightly dodgy concept, but I'll agree in general.

under a system where it is possible that the government was elected by less than a majority of people.
So, you're saying that all the Australian governments ever have been elected with 50% (or more) support of the population, never mind the voters? For comparison: the British Labour party won last year with 44% of all votes, barely 32% of the population.

A $10 fine
It's basically a reminder of the rule, it gives people an incentive to follow the rule.
Does it give such an incentive? Doesn't it just annoy the hell out of everyone, especially those charged with enforcing it?

If the majority of people vote for the government to be able to poke their nose into your private business then you can like it or lump it, because the people have spoken baby.
The People Have Spoken. The cry of any ruler who wants to impose their will on those who object. Besides, just because The People want it, doesn't make it right: cf the death penalty. 80% of Brits back its return in polls, but that doesn't make it a humane thing to do.

The Slayer Is Back!! Whoopee!

Jordan's reaction to Rickie lighting a candle for him. Gosh! The lad has feelings, even after all he's done with Angela.

I love that episode. :) I'm hopeless.
Well, I think it's a rather good one, and you're not hopeless. You're The Slayer.

~Laura, on the same thread
I think you see feelings from Jordan quite often...
True, but until that episode I'd never quite known whether he was acting with them or not. There was just something about the whole episode that led me to reconsider the "Jordan Is All Action And No Feeling" theory, and reject it.

Until next time,

Codsall: frosty & 2 * keeper of Brian's calendar
"Next on News 24, an error"

Sara responds to Professor Cheeky Wombat
This isn't proper writing, this is letter writing..which is MUCH different.
Personally, I'd call it e-mail writing. Not formal letter writing, and not informal, spoken English. It's somewhere in between the two. Sentence fragments are fine... so's use of the ellipsis. And unusual punctuation marks are sometimes needed to make your point.

While an observance of the basic rules of grammar (like, lots of punctuation, and sensible word order) is necessary to preserve communication, there's no need to be grossly pedantic about these matters. Unless the topic under discussion is grammar. That's a whole other matter.

Sara, on Jerry Springfield
there are some chat shows starting up trying to copy him..
It's always the way. One network has a good idea (Oprah, a soap opera, a docusoap, a costume drama) and all the others jump on the bandwagon.

I keep seeing one advertised over here...I don't think its started yet, but its supposed to be kinda the same.
Trisha? Esther? Vanessa? Oh, sorry, those are Oprah clones. Kilroy? Naah, he's been on for years. The Audience Meets Cliff Evans? Now that would be a good match...

m2europe
muchmusic

Now, MuchMusic would be nice, but I'll have to move first.

from: "lovefool"; "torn"; "how do i live?"; "angels"; "i don't wanna miss a thing" and (er) "this kiss"

Sara, on my tardiness
Iain was an hour late (which is kinda good..te-he :) )
I am not spoiling my argument with Vermin trains by telling them that. They got me to London 50 minutes late - 42% of the journey time - and they're not getting away with it.

And on Monopoly
they definitely have some weird rules over here
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth! Your liquidity rule - 500 on every Free Parking - won you the game.

Somehow it got to be that Ross offered to pay Iain's debt, in exchange for teh green card. Now..is this second deal possible in Monopoly?
I'm biased. Of course it's possible - we did it. It's also legal coz it's a private deal between me and Ross. You got your rent, and you can't have any comeback on how you get it.

Toby was in his bouncer, and the back of iain's head was in front of him..and for soem reason, Toby just kept laughing about something.
I tell you, he was reading my mind of a masterplan to win the game. It worked so well that I came (er) fourth of five. Hence the giggles.

us three went to bed
Sara, Ross and Toby upstairs; me downstairs. Just in case you were thinking pervy thoughts. Coz I don't do that.

Dr Wombat again
I'm not saying the majority of people are upper class, I'm saying the majority of VOTERS are upper class, well educated people.
How can you possibly tell, when voting is mandatory?

You need only look at America for evidence of this.
I'd rather not; America's registration rules are so cumbersome that they have the lowest voter turn out of any democracy, apart from Switzerland. Look at Europe, New Zealand and Japan - stable democracies where 70% or more vote on a regular basis.

What I'm saying is that with non-compulsory voting the rich chose the government that suits them and helps them get richer, and the poor get poorer. You can't honestly deny this?
No, I can't. Similarly, the poor will choose a party that will level things out more. But this has absolutely nothing to do with whether voting is compulsory or not. It's a total non- sequitor.

Your ballot paper is not marked in any way in Australia and your vote isn't traceable back to you.
Then corrected I stand.

Life kills people. It may not be popular, but we're all mortal.

injuries to the head are much more severe. I believe the brain is the only part of the body that can't regenerate, when it's injured it stays injured.
A perfectly accurate fact, cogently stated. But, again, it misses the point totally. You've set out reasons why wearing a helmet should be encouraged. There's nothing in here to suggest that it should be mandatory.

It's an excellent idea not to smoke, or drink, but I don't see the government banning those activities.

are you opposed to the compulsory wearing of seatbelts?
Got it in one. If someone wants to kill themself in that manner, that's their lookout.

the government certainly aren't in it for the money. It's something like a $10 fine here for not wearing your helmet,
Then what's the point of that? It's nothing more than a pin-prick on the wrist.

the rule is in place to actually help people. Prevent them from seriously injuring themselves.
Isn't it there to remind people that the government is there? That their actions are limited and confined by other people and vested interests? This is a great money-spinner for crash-helmet makers.

If you don't like the law you have two options: Move, or change it.
Fine. I'd change it, were there such a daft law in Britain. There isn't.

If you want something done, you run for parliament, you petition the house, you bug your MP, you do whatever to change it.
Break the law, refuse to pay fines, become a martyr for your cause...

Of course, they'll probably tell you that a majority of representatives of the people voted it in, which is the closest we have to democracy, and one person changing it to their will would be undemocratic
Democracy doesn't justify the government poking its nose into what should be someone's personal business.

Chelle, on "Smoulder and Sulky"
it's also a big name dropping song
Actually, just about everything Catatonia record is oozing pop- culture. References to the Mafia, Tom Jones, road rage - and that's just the other hit singles.

I never said it wasn't worth listening to, I just said it was terrible. :) Sometimes terrible things are worth checking out in their own right, for amusement value. This is one of those times.
Aah! She finds it kitsch! Me understands!

Nichole
I just now got my blanket back
Yaay!

Lauren, on James Vandendawsonscreek
he was in "I Love You I Love You Not" with Claire, so he has acted with the best of them.
Another star actress to his bow. Does Lisa Simpson do cameos?

~Laura
What is your favorite moment of 'So-Called Angels'?
Jordan's reaction to Rickie lighting a candle for him. Gosh! The lad has feelings, even after all he's done with Angela.

Emily

Nor, to the best of my knowledge, am I female.

Mark xxx (who had a Famous Five moment there...)
Oh, where's Uncle Quentin gone? His tea's getting cold again. What a blast. Not like you, Timmy, you're such a brick.

Dammit, this Blyton business is catching. I'm off to recover.

Brum: sunny & 4 * dipsy hat * html mailers rock

First, this from the St John's Tourist Board:
Soooooo come to NF, get nutella... stay a while :)
Come to NF, pick up two points off the hockey side, but expect to lose them when they come play you.

if the csu can defend their poor planing....
Sounds a lot like Vermin trains. The people who try to sell me a ticket to the Rossara's place Not Via London, which means six (count 'em!) changes en route, rather than two, and charge me an extra four quid into the bargain, and then wind up running an hour late. Sorry, planning, what planning?

On Sara's cheap debating list
they've resorted to name calling me now, just because I don't agree with them.
The prats. The plonkers. The eedjits. If they can't debate in a calm, sensible, rational manner, then maybe they ought to be honest and call it the Slagging Shop.

Oh, isn't there one of those already?

they just make me hate religious people all the more. not that I hate you guys..but I always think of religious people as non- tolerating
Sadly, many are. Of course, they're the sort that let the side down a lot. But are they in the majority?

Sidebar to consider the Wixzard of Salliwoo
I belive in God, so I guess that makes me a christian
Not necessarily. It could make you Jewish, or a Moslem. Belief in god makes one a Theist. And nowt more.

Back to Sara
am I a really horrible person? please be honest.
On a scale of politicians, you rank somewhere around John Major. Often misunderstood, but fundamentally honest.

the historic detroit - pittsburgh coin toss that led to the nfl reforming their coin-toss procedures. and not their single-score overtime rule.

And actually discussing the self-proclaimed religious group. Let me remove some words Sara wrote. Nothing added, or edited, just some cuts.
they won't accept...they keep telling me, they just need to be reformed, or, that they choose to live that way. its ridiculous.
Put like that, the Rabid God-Bothering Mob are suggesting that they need to change.

'oh yu can't trust gays, and I don't want my husband dying because there's a gay in teh unit
Substitute the word "left-hander", or "redhead", or "Christian" in that sentence. Then see what you get.

women shouldn't be allowed to be on the front line either.. which I think is bull
Step back: I'm going to offer a reason why not. The women on the front line would be a formidable fighting unit, there's no doubt about that. But a mixed unit might be a step too far: the men may (not would, just may) turn out too protective of their colleagues, and that would impact on the unit's effectiveness. So, an all-female unit would be good, but a mixed one may not.

Catherine
a song from The Cure but I can't remember the title... My (new) sig is a quote from that song... If someone knows the tilte, please tell me...
"This is why I hate you
And how I understand
That no one ever knows or loves another... or loves another"
"How Beautiful You Are", from the album "Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me". Thanks to the Lyrics.ch server for those details.

~Laura
time to start holiday shopping to you:)
Start? The other thing I got Thursday was my Box From The Amazons. CDs from Jewel, Alanis and the Rugrats ost will be in Other People's Stockings. The Now cd will be in my own.

Jill, thanks (I think) for reminding me of
Ice Ice Baby --Vanilla Ice
Sheesh, eight years ago?! But that reminds me of a spoof at the time: about one of England's best culinary treats, "Rice Rice Pudding".

Further words from the Wixzard
I just sent that last message on high priorty
Don't get priorities on digest mode. Just the message, not the fluff. Though it does bring up one of my quirks that annoys the blat out of people at work. A lot of them flag important (in their view) messages as high priority. I've set my mailbox to junk such "important" mail sent to a group rather than to me directly, and to not flag the others in any way. Why? Because their definition of important is rarely the same as mine, and saying something should be high priority denies my judgement. Especially for those people who never send anything else.

Children of the Night - dunno who by, but I don't think you will have heard it. It's a happy hardcore song, and weeeee it's very happy!!!!
For a moment there, I thought she was going to like a Richard Marx track. Phew.

wral heard through broadcast dot com

Nichole proves that a little flattery will get you everywhere Im in the mood to do an "all in one" post, the kind I usually dont like even reading (except Iain's cuz those are cool)
[blushes] Thanks, like, a lot. It's nice to get some positive feedback.

Oh, and the blanket: assuming actually going round to the house and taking it back in person is out of the question... yeah, write to the people living there. It's your blanket, no matter what happens. And it probably feels as p'ed off as you.

Britt
not everybody who watches these shows is a teenage girl.. I watch Dawson's, and the "dying" PO5, and Buffy avidly (not Sabrina, though) and I'm not a teenager
Neither, at 25, am I. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, am I female.

I know they are usually marketed to a teen audience, but they are certainly not TeenageShows.
What was my original point?

To answer this, we really need to figure out if the current crop of media events targeting the teen girl market would have taken place in a world without MSCL.

which sounds a lot like the canon

Chelle
mulder and scully - catatonia
a totally terrible song that i love for obvious reasons.
Oi! It's not terrible in the slightest. It explores the strange and bizarre nature of attraction, lust and love. It may not be as funny as Doughnut Sulky and Fax Smoulder's "X-Fools", but it's worth listening to, he said, wondering just when he could play it for the rest of you.

That's torn my filing system! We are 1000 digests since April alone!

Britt scores highly:
In Your Wildest Dreams- Moody Blues
Tangent: one of my faves is "Beyond your Wildest Dreams" - it's a standard for Disco Divas to belt out. Lonnie Gordon's original remains best.

10. Southampton, a musical piece from Titanic by whoever did the score
James Horner, the man with the #1 UK classical album of the year. And as featured on weaver.radio in October.

A forward... Watch out for the British bias.
Then I watched "Scooby Doo." Daphne was a Goddess
Velma was so under-rated. And no-one ever remembers the other bloke...

"Dangermouse" Cor!
Cripes, chief! It's my Windows startup themes again.

The world stopped when the Challenger exploded. Did a teacher come in and tell your class?
They would have had a job, coz it went at 4:40 in the afternoon here, but it led "Newsround" within 20 minutes. Why don't they let John Craven break news any more?

People did not just say no to drugs.
Especially after the cast of "Grange Hill" made their excrable record.

You knew "The Artist" when he was humbly called "Prince".
What? Person Recently Incarcerated; Nominally Cancelling Everything?

You know who Max Headroom is.
Coming at you, from 20 minutes into the future.

You know what a Doozer is.
Doozers, ready!

Lauren
The name of the magazine is The Face, if you ever have a chance to find it, I suggest you pick it up.
Not to rain on their parade, but you may wish to browse in a newsagents before placing a subscription. It's not to everyone's liking. In fact, I don't know anyone who reads it outside the dentist's waiting room.

James Vanderbeek was on an episode of Clarissa Explains it All.
So, not content with starring with America's Third Greatest Rising Star (Katie Holmes), he's acted with the Sixth (Melissa Joan Hart). Who next?

The Wombat of much Cheek
The problem with non-compulsory voting is that ultimately you have a vast majority of voters being rich upper class types, and so the country becomes very unbalanced against the lower classes.
It may well be true that Australia is becoming more upper class; I have no evidence either way. And I'm not saying whether this is a good, bad, or indifferent thing. However, I don't see how this is related at all to compulsory voting, unless one is prepared to assume that people's vote is totally determined by their place in a class structure. And that's clearly tosh, otherwise Labour would not be near power in Britain. Indeed, if voting were mandatory in Britain, Labour would have lost seats in the UK.

the idea of a government voted in by a minority of the people doesn't sit right with me.
In which case, argue for total proportional representation, as used in Israel. Or Italy, going through their 60th government since the war.

they can't fine you if you dummy vote.
My reading of the literature suggests otherwise.

It's a secret ballot, there's no way anyone could possibly find out who you voted for or what you wrote on your paper.
Are your papers numbered? Is your name matched to the number? That's the British system, and it's still called a secret ballot.

Skin cancer kills people
Life kills people. It may not be popular, but we're all mortal.

and if you spend a prolonged time under the Australian sun you will develop skin cancer.
You stand a much higher risk, but it's not 100% certain.

It's an incredibly sensible thing to do
I don't disagree with that. In the slightest.

the government WE (the people) voted in to represent us saw there was an incredibly high number of head injuries that could have easily been prevented by wearing a helmet,
Then promote the use of helmets. But bear in mind that their use confers a sense of invulnerability on the rider; because their head is protected, they think their arm or leg is also safe, and take greater risks. The net effect is often to actually increase the risk of a crash with serious injuries.

A helmet will protect the head; the head is injured in no more than 5% of crashes where there's some injury. Cuts, bruises, or broken limbs are much more likely.

and decided to do the only sensible thing they could do - make wearing helmets compulsory.
Don't agree. Other sensible things: to educate on safe techniques for all road users; to encourage segregation of riders from drivers and walkers.

Sidebar to ACutler
you get a ticket if you're seen on a bike, roller blades or skateboard without one. If one kid/adult is helped by this, then a compulsory rule is fantastic.
Well, you're the one paying for this wonderful rule. How much does it cost to police and process this law? Far in excess of the revenue raised, or the saving to health providers, I'll bet.

Back to CWombat's songs.
"It's only words, and words are all I have, to take your heart away". Anyone know the name?
"Words", originally recorded by the Bee Gees, recently popularised by Irish mob Boyzone.

~Laura on Scoobs
Cartoon Network plays the originals and my daughter and I love them!
Good choice. Over here, it's "Friends" at 6:30, "Simpsons" at 7, then "Scooby Doo" at 8. Who said DTTV was dead with a line-up like that?

Kori's paper
"To what extent did improvements in technology enhance the 1997 movie Titanic?"
Massively. The music kicks butt, but it's the images that really carry the movie. Given the insufferably cliched plot, and hammy acting, I suspect the technology gets most of the credit.

Sara
Ross will have a computer now... (he only ever reads my messages and even that hes way behind on).
How does he get to know about the monthly get-togethers, then? (;

What Sara's evidently too modest to mention is her winning ways at Monopoly. I don't recommend playing against her unless you want to lose. Especially if Ross "#1050 for one property" MacD is also playing. Anyway, thanks again for the hospitality.

Gio, welcome amongst us!

Mark
Mark xxx (who wonders if I can put Oldtimer in my sig now??)
Yes, I'll pass you the zimmer frame once I've finished my cocoa.

"You're watching - the Station you're watching. Obviously."
Brum: clear & 6 * listie of thirty-eight months
"With the time coming to now, goodnight from weaver.posts"