The Contemporary A Cappella Newsletter Interviews Series:
Originally appeared in the September 1991 issue of the CAN.
Gunnar was a founding member of the Bobs. During his nine years with the group he served as co-writer/arranger for nearly all of their songs. This interview captured his thoughts and feelings a short while after leaving the group.
CAN: Tell me a little about your musical background: your training, influences, etc.
GM: It's funny having started an a cappella group that I find myself in the midst of all this a cappella mania. Here's an entire newsletter devoted to a cappella, and it's like, "Gee, I never even thought about a cappella music before." I just started the group as a whim, and it's kind of funny -- my background was not in voice at all.
My first musical inspiration was probably the Beatles -- when I was 8, they came on the Ed Sullivan show -- the same can probably be said for millions of young Americans, but it affected me as well. I took some piano lessons for a year and then quit, because I didn't sound like the Beatles. Later on, when I was about 15 or 16, I picked up the guitar and taught myself guitar and piano (figured out from the guitar). Then my mother gave me piano lessons for my 17th birthday, and that was heavenly. I practiced for like 4 hours a day. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, really, but I thought maybe if I could major in music, that would be great. So, I worked really hard all summer and got into the music department here at Berkeley, and ended up studying music for 5 years. [Gunnar was a Music Theory major -Eds.]
When I taught myself, I was teaching myself rock and folk, but studying music here at Berkeley was strictly classical. So I didn't really know what was happening in the music world -- for all I knew, it was just the Bee Gees and nothing else.
During school, I music-directed some shows for theatre groups and found myself arranging and writing music, and I continued after college. A couple years after I graduated ['79], I was writing music and singing telegrams, and it was when the singing telegram company -- that's where I met Matthew -- went out of business that the Bobs were formed.
There was an a cappella group here in San Francisco called the Baltimores which are no longer, but at the time they put out a couple of singles, I think. I just loved what they were doing, and I said, "I'd love to do that." I got together with Matthew, found Richard through an ad in the paper, and then the Bobs got launched.
CAN: When exactly did you start, and how long was it before it became full-time?
GM: We started in 1981, and it was a great ride. Richard had a good background in music. Where I was used to cheesy little recording studios, Richard was an engineer at a very fine studio in San Francisco. The Bobs got a pretty fast break that way -- we got some good recordings done [early] and they got on some radio stations that would play demos of local groups. It wasn't all computerized back then. We got some notoriety by being able to get some stuff done in the studio.
Janie joined us in '82, after about a year. Writing music with just three parts is all right, but it's a little difficult. You'd love to put a seventh on a chord sometimes, you know -- or take a breath -- and four is great. Then we added Joe a few years ago, and five is all right, but sometimes it gets a little mushy if you overuse the voices. Overall, I would say that five voices is even better than four but you have to arrange carefully. With four there's always clarity, but five can sound a little "Swingly-Singery ... Gene Puerlingy ... Hi-Losy ..." Take 6 sometimes borders on sounding like that, but they're such incredible singers, I don't care.
CAN: If you didn't have any real a cappella background, how did you find such a distinct style? What made you choose your direction?
GM: The Baltimores were headed in a similar direction [away from traditional doo-wop and barbershop] although they stayed more in a pop vein. Where Richard and I got off as arrangers from the very beginning was to try and "push the envelope" as they say. We would say, "Can we do heavy metal? Can we do punk?" I suppose the judges are still out on that, but that's okay, we were having fun with it.
Though I was a composer, I really hadn't written any songs, and Richard hadn't either. We essentially taught each other how to write songs. Virtually every Bobs song was a collaboration. The genesis of the group was saying, "Can we do Frank Zappa?" After awhile, it was, "Can we write our own songs? Let's see." "Art for Art's Sake" was one of the first ones, as was "Cowboy Lips."
CAN: What are your favorite songs, that you either wrote or just arranged?
GM: I always loved singing "Through the Wall." There's a depth of emotion to it that not all of our other songs, at least the ones I got to sing lead on, had. Every time I sang it, I could find something to really hook into and really feel deeply, and I like that. Also, we sang "Psycho Killer" at virtually every show, and it never got old for me. It's a beautiful song in lots of ways. We did it in kind of a funny way, but overall, the words of the song just really describe that feeling of being on edge. [To tape recorder:] I'm not psychotic!
CAN: What were some of the challenges in the early days of a pioneering a cappella group?
GM: Probably finding a slot for ourselves. Our agent, Scott O'Malley, was very helpful to our career, I feel, in that we were a hard act to book. A cappella has achieved a certain stature recently, with the [Spike Lee] special on TV, but when we were doing this -- hey, Bobby McFerrin hadn't even started doing a cappella; he was still singing with the band. I mean, the only people out there were the Persuasions -- the Nylons hadn't even started yet.
We're also a little bit funny, so we ended up doing lots of comedy gigs. Finding the right slot for us wasn't easy. Our agent had lots of patience. He put us in Folk festivals, Jazz festivals, anywhere we could fit, and lots of times we did. We opened for Robin Williams on tour, and it worked. It was hard -- 7,000 people that pay good money to see Robin Williams don't want to see anything else. I'd say we did pretty well.
CAN: You also opened for Billy Crystal, didn't you?
GM: That was only for a couple of nights, so we didn't get to know him that well. The interesting thing about that was that we did it at a casino in South Tahoe, and singing in a casino is an experience. Everyone's drunk, and they don't care for anything too... fine, shall we say? In fact, we opened our first set [there were two shows a night] with the kind of stuff we did with Robin on tour -- "Banana Love" and really hit-'em-over-the-head kind of stuff -- "Psycho Killer" -- and Robin Williams' audiences really seemed to like that. But here, in this setting, people just sort of looked at us with drunken, uncomprehending faces.
Then Billy Crystal comes on, and his show was full of, like, farting jokes and all kinds of stuff. They loved it, `cause he knew the audience he was playing for. He kept on repeating the same farting noise, and they would roll in the aisles. And we had the entertainment director from Harrah's come down and say, "You're a talented, talented young man, but do you have any love songs or something?" So we dropped "Psycho Killer" quick and some other things and played it down the middle as far as we could.
CAN: All in all, would you call the Bobs successful, either by your standards and expectations or the music industry's?
GM: Yes, definitely. In terms of my expectations, I think in the back of my mind I had the fantasy of the Beatles. As a young kid, you look at "A Hard Day's Night," it looks like it's the most fun thing in the world. Basically, I haven't had my jacket torn off of me by anybody, but I know what it is to tour now. I know what it is to feel a crowd responding just to your music -- it's great. Also, it's hard to tour, and its like, "Okay, so I lived the life -- that's good." I might go back and live it again; I don't know. Life on the road is hard. I can see why the Beatles split up when they did. How any group makes it beyond a certain point is due to magic because you're talking about a complex relationship.
CAN: If you could go back, would you do anything differently as far as the group is concerned?
GM: No, it seems to have worked out pretty well. I mean, if I were to start another group now, I might put it in writing what we each expected and wanted out of the whole thing and make sure it's clear up front, because the fuzziness leads to a lot of resentment on everybody's part. You can never make it all totally clear, but I'd make an attempt at it, at least. On the other hand, you've just got to trust that things might work out.
CAN: I think our readers would like to know some of your reasons for leaving the Bobs last December, if you'd care to comment on that.
GM: Basically, I would say that I had many reasons, sort of like the stars lining up and suddenly the forces are all there. It is falling in love with someone, who I'm now married to. We've been living together the last four years. Spending time away on the road for the first two years of touring with the Bobs was no problem. When there's someone at home that you miss, you don't like going out as much.
I'd also kind of had my fill of the a cappella format. I still love it, but in terms of doing something creative, the songwriting had kind of stopped a couple years back. To get it going, it was kind of like an act of will as opposed to an act of joy, and for my own life I just wanted more joy in it. And it was six months away from home out of every year. I love performing and those two hours [on stage] were great, but after that, it's like, "Where's the newness? Where's the new excitement?" I felt pretty satisfied about all the success and was just looking for something else.
I couldn't have told you before I quit what I wanted to do, but as the year turned and I was no longer touring with the group, all kinds of things opened up. I'm writing a film score and getting some jobs as a composer, which feels real good. I'm doing some solo concerts, some a cappella and some where I play piano, and it's a pleasure to play piano again -- I haven't done that in years! I'm starting to teach myself guitar [again] and using that in concerts, and it's like, "Hey -- instruments are fun!"
Also, the Bobs had become a comedy group, and I really wanted to write some more personal, emotional songs. I tried to do that with the group, and it was really hard, because the audience expected it. The group expected comedy too -- it was just a real hard mold to break. I didn't have the courage or the willpower to force it open, and I wasn't sure it needed to be. I just wasn't sure what I wanted either. It's only having been by myself now that the songs are just coming out of me. Some of them are still funny, `cause I'm a funny guy, I think. But when I want to write a song about a relationship or my dead grandmother, there's room for me to write it and perform it, and you know, it feels really good.
I suggested touring less -- there were all sorts of compromises suggested. In fact, Joe joined the group as a result of compromise. We said, "Maybe if we add another member it will change things." And it did change things -- a lot for the better, but it didn't change things enough for me personally to where I felt comfortable staying still. I just wanted to be home so bad. In fact, I still resent traveling. Here it is eight months later -- I've got a honeymoon coming up in November that I'm starting to want to go on now. I've had enough of it. Don't put me in an airport, PLEASE!
CAN: Tell me about the Bobs' most recent album. It was released several months ago, right?
GM: Yes, but it was recorded a couple of years ago. In fact, it was while we were auditioning people for our new group. That's why you'll find Joe on some of the cuts and Maureen Scott, who's a wonderful singer, on a few as well.
CAN: Was she part of the group at that time?
GM: No, we were just busy in the studio and said, "Hey, we've auditioned a bunch of different singers over the last 6 months. Why don't we try some of them out in the studio and see how it works?" We liked working with Joe, and we liked working with Maureen on a couple of the cuts too. Then, according to the votes cast, it was Joe who was next to join the group.
CAN: Last January I heard the Bobs in North Carolina, and there was a fifth member, Roger Bob. Several of the CAN staff heard the Bobs this month in San Francisco, and Roger was nowhere to be found. What's the story there?
GM: I'm not too sure what went on. He was one of the first people we auditioned down in L.A. [when Joe joined the group]. He's a wonderful, witty songwriter and a good singer. I really liked working with him, but he has a good career in Los Angeles too, as a jingle singer and stuff. So, it was problematic about him joining the group, but when I finally left at the end of last year, they worked on maybe integrating him into the group. Apparently, the blend wasn't quite right, and I think he could've been a little afraid of the touring schedule as well. So, they tried him and it didn't work out. I think they're just going on with four now. I'm not really sure.
CAN: Do you have any other advice for people interested in starting a new a cappella group?
GM: Try arranging your own stuff. Who knows what kind of stuff is bubbling inside each of us? It might be something you're not cut out for. Maybe you try a few, and it just gives you headaches -- that's fine, but give it try. Don't let the editor get in your way: everyone has a little internal editor that says, "Oh, that's too corny" or "Oh, that's too dissonant." NO -- do it, do it, do it. Just go for it... grab a handful of it... If it doesn't work, what have you lost? If you just go with the same old arrangements, you can have some fun too, but just dig in with both hands, get dirty, and see how much fun you can have with it. Not everyone has the will to do that -- sometimes it's just nice to have a nice hobby. But, if you want to start a group, why not go all the way?
CAN: Let's talk a little bit about the art form of a cappella itself. Why the a cappella format?
GM: It's really intriguing to try limit your options and then work within that. Strip it down to three voices or four, and then it's really exciting. When you have a whole orchestra or synthesizer at your disposal, you can't seem to make up your mind between the timpani and the flute. But if all you've got is just four human voices, then you know what you're going to do with them, and you stretch them. You make them do things, you really explore them, and that's exciting. It's why the string quartet for classical composers was so incredibly engrossing. It's like this concentrated essence. You're not talking about a whole orchestra, but just these four instruments and can you make it work?
The limiting factor is definitely exciting. And the purity of the sound. And the portability of it. You can do it anywhere. It's, like, almost totally organic, and that's exciting.
CAN: What makes a song work a cappella? What's the key to a good arrangement?
GM: It differs from song to song. I think of "I Hate the Beach Boys" from our repertoire. I love that song; it's just really pretty. It's got no rhythm -- it's almost like a madrigal in a sense, and it succeeds on that scale. It would never be a hit though. What makes, like, Take 6 happen is their underlying beat, the repetitive nature of the beat, even though their chords are complex on top. The Nylons? Well, they've got drums in there -- that's cheating! But if you can set up some kind of a beat. That was always exciting too. We'd say, "Can we pull off a funk song with 4 voices? Can we set up something that's really funky?" Sometimes its easy. You just keep those back-beat handclaps going and anything you put down is going to sound great.
But it's not always that simple. You're looking for a good bass line, or.... I suppose it's the same rules that apply to any good song. If you're looking at a Gershwin thing, well, it's that melody that works. You could play it on a solo piano, you could play it in an orchestra -- it's just a beautiful melody. What makes Tower of Power work? It's that rhythm. Boppity boppity bah. Can you sing a Tower of Power song to yourself in the shower? Well, ... kind of, but basically it's that rhythm. The same rules apply, but basically those rules depend on what kind of song you're trying to get across.
One thing I'm finding in writing my own songs now, apart from the Bobs, is the use of the chorus in a pop song -- the repetition of words that I used to think was boring. In the Bobs you'll find that each verse is different, trying to keep going and tell a story. But I'm really digging how a pop song can say nothing but "I love you" and the second line is "I love you, baby" and the third line is "I love you." If it's done with emotion, the beat's right, and there's a little bit of melody, it could be a fantastic song.
Words and the judicial use of them are really important in getting a good arrangement going. Like, a good challenge would be to do ... I don't know ... "Let's Do It" -- a Cole Porter song. [He sings:] "Birds do it, bees do it. Even educated fleas..." Take that and it's got a million verses. You can do 10 minutes worth of that song just going verse to verse, and they're great verses. But could you do a 3-minute arrangement of it with just the one verse and recycling the words around. That's a great idea. [To tape recorder:] Hey, give it a try! It might end up just being an intellectual exercise, but maybe you can make it mean something. Basically you're talking about a plea. Someone's begging, "Please let's do it!" You could work it.
From my current standpoint, that's really excited me -- the structure of just a song, let alone the arrangement. I'm thinking of "Helter Skelter" when we first started arranging. We kind of knew we couldn't make it really heavy metal, so what else could we do to make it grating? Not unpleasantly so, but to really punch the buttons underneath your skin and make you go, "Oooo -- this is weird. Where's the downbeat?" and "That's a strange note." That was a way to approach it. We knew that the essence of the song was unsettling. So, we didn't use loud guitars and a raucous vocal and an intense beat to make it unsettling, but other aspects. The choice of a chord and the voicing of the chord. A shifting meter that just doesn't let you settle down.
That would be true of choosing any song, I guess. If you wanted to do a Carpenters' song, say. It's got kind of a warmth, maybe a soupy warmth, and you want to make sure that's in your arrangement somewhere. Or, to intentionally cut across that and instead of crooning, "Why do birds suddenly appear?" you could go for a punk version of it. Could be fun! But to realize what the essence is so you know where you're going from there.
CAN: Jumping to a completely different topic, as a professional group, what kind of contact did the Bobs have with other professional singing groups?
GM: We did a show with the Nylons once. They were nice, but we didn't end up going out for beers afterwards and singing the house down. There was a club in Denver called Acapella's and they had a different local a cappella group every night. We'd always stop in after we did a show at a theatre somewhere in Denver and sit in or something, so that kind of thing is fun. We did a few shows with Bobby McFerrin, but we never quite made a link with anyone else.
I guess the Bobs were somewhat insular in that way, `cause Richard and I are trained musicians and could improvise some. But Janie and Matthew don't have the training, so it's not so easy to just pick up something new. Also, we do some covers, but if we do, they're pretty weird. It's not like we just get together with the Persuasions and [they] say, "Let's do that old Philadelphia song, `My Baby'" [And we say] "We don't know it ...we know `Helter Skelter.'"
CAN: In closing, perhaps you'd like to tell our readers a little bit about what the future holds for Gunnar Madsen. Do you have some hopes for where your career is headed next?
GM: I've been taking an acting class recently that has been really good. I always loved performing anyway, but did it from an instinctual basis. I wanted to learn more of the tools. When I had a great night, that was wonderful, but I had no idea how to recapture that. I'm doing lots of auditions, and have done some commercials [for a computer he couldn't name at this point]. I'm not sure I want to be just a stage actor, but it's really helping me in my solo performing. One would think that I'd feel totally comfortable on stage after singing with the Bobs for 10 years, but it's so different to have a whole group you can just sit back on. So, I'm learning a whole lot each time I step across the stage. I guess I've been doing about one concert a month this year, and I'm really liking the freedom that's in it. It's really a kick to take the audience from funny, funny songs to a really sad or angry one -- all over the emotional map. I can go there myself and take the audience with me.
My dream is to have a demo-quality tape out just to put some good time into arranging and recording the songs. I like being by myself, and I'd like to get that project done and see where it goes from there in the solo singing career. That seems to be the core of my being right now -- writing songs and singing them. I don't know, we'll see what happens.
Gunnar Madsen was interviewed by Brannon Wiles
Copyright 1995, The Contemporary A Cappella Society of America - Italy italy@casa.org