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#1. Re: Volume - from Lyle McDonald
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Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 23:27:05 -0500 (CDT) From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Re: Volume >Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 07:45:21 +0000 >From: jon and stacy ziegler <rutger1@jps.net> >Subject: Re: HIT Digest #121 > >I don't think anyone is sidestepping the issue of "what is volume". If >the volume folks need a definition then they should supply one to the >HIT folks since the volume folks are the ones who do volume. So, volume >folks, what is volume? I'm doing one set to failure, successfully (HD >II), volume doesn't concern me. I don't archive these digests but I recall the original poster essentially railing against 'volume training' without ever saying what a 'volume workout' is. Is it anything over 1 set? That's what I saw implied in the message but I was trying for clarification. When do you leave the realm of HIT and enter 'volume training'? 2 sets to failure? 3 sets? What if I do 2 warmups of 5 and then 3-5 work sets of 5? Is that high volume. What about 1 set of 20 squats to failure? It's higher volume than 1 set of 10 squats to failure? Is it a volume program? You can intelligently perform more than 1 set of a given exercise if you keep the overall number of exercises per workout low. Old time lifters (we're talking pre-steroid era) did it all the time. 3-5 exercises per workout maximum. No more htan 3 training days per week and oftentimes 2 workouts per week or 5 workouts in 2 weeks. maybe 3-5 sets per exercise. Only used higher set counts with lower reps (as in 5 sets of 5 method of training). It wasn't until steroids entered the scene that we started seeing the rediculous 20 set per bodypart training programs arise. I think we'll all agree that that's a volume program. And it's so ludicrous to contemplate that it's not worth even arguing about. I doubt anyone on this list would argue that a non-drug user will make progress with that many sets. But somewhere between maybe 1 and 5 sets per exercise we have this nebulous zone where you can kind of encompass HIT, Hardgainer and 'volume'. If you look at the training methods of John McKean (who performs entire workouts that may only be 9 REPS total, 3 sets of 1 rep apiece for 3 exercises per workout), it makes a Superslow workout of even 5 exercises look 'high volume' by comparison. So we need to define terms before we starting saying 'volume doesn't work' or 'HIT doesn't work' or whatever. Without a meaningful definition, any discussion just goes around in circles. That was my point. Lyle McDonald, CSCS "The ketogenic diet simulates the metabolism of a fasting body....As a fasting body burns it own fat for energy, so a person on a ketogenic diet derives energy principally by burning fat rather than from the more common energy source, carbohydrate." John Freeman M.D. in "The Epilepsy Diet Treatment- An Introduction to the Ketogenic Diet"
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#2. Re: More qwadz - from Lyle McDonald
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 00:03:39 -0500 (CDT) From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Re: More qwadz >Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:40:13 -0600 (CST) >From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) >Subject: Re: Qwadz Our near omnipotent moderator Rob asked: >[Lyle, as one who has such an imbalance as I believe you >are aware, I am curious to know more about this. Can you give the readership >some detail as to the specifics of what kind of program you would have a >trainee perform using terminal leg extensions to correct the imbalance? >For e.g., how do you know when the balance has been corrected, do you >perform terminal leg extensions on a machine, what is the ROM, # of sets, >do you train to failure, etc., etc. Thanks --Rob] It's interesting but this topic just came up on Jason Burnell's strength list this week. One comment I made there that I'll repeat here is that, according to a physical therapist buddy of mine (actually my training partner), 1 in 3 people have a vastus medialis (teardrop/inner quad) that shares innervation with the adductor muscles (adductor magnus, etc). This lends itself to another technique if you can't get terminal leg extensions to work for you (I remember Chuck Clark telling me his VM recruitment was so bad, they had to use electrostim to get it to fire when he rehabbed his knees). Squats or leg presses with a big ball between your knees. Since you have to adduct your legs to keep the ball there, if you're one of those 1 in 3 people, you'll get your vastus medialis to fire too. I still haven't found the right sized ball to try this. A 12 inch diameter ball is definiteily too small. I tried it at the supermarket (which I kid you not, is called HEB which stands for Harry E. Butt, the owner of the chain) in the toy section. Looked like an idiot squatting bodyweight with a ball between my knes. I ahve a feeling that a 14 or 15" diameter rubber toy ball would be perfect but haven't tracked one down yet to try. Obviously don't try this with maximal weights. As an interesting anecdote on this, a real common thing I've seen (and dealt with myself) is that road cyclists tend to get imbalances between vastus lateralis and vastus medialis. Since VM doesn't recruit until last 20 degrees of leg extension, and since cyclists don't lock out their knees on the bike, they tend to overdevelop the VL relative to the VM. That coupled with a tight iliotibial band/tensa fasciae latae predisposes them to patellar mistracking. I got it when I was cycling 20 hours per week and I was doing some major strength training too so it wasn't just a function of quad weakness in general, it was most definitely an imbalance. however, I train a female mountain biker who's husband is an ex-moto cross racer. Both sports require the racer to squeeze the bike between the knees while holding a half squat position. Both of these individuals have a teardrop that most bodybuilders would kill for. Anyway, terminal leg extensions. I generally only emphasize the last 20 degrees of motion since I'm not fan of the shearing forces that can occur at the bottom of the motion. Because of the limited range of motion, I have to use higher reps to get the kind of set times I want (initially 40-60 seconds, later 20-40 seconds). so I'll start with slow sets of 15-20 on a 2up/2down or thereabouts with light weights. I use a lot of touch training which basically means I poke at the person's muscle to make them aware of it and focus it. Call it mind-muscle link or whatever but it seems to help. After 1-2 sessions, I'll have the person palpate their own vastus medialis so that they can feel it firing during the leg extensions. I seem to recall reading somewhere that neural pathways develop faster this way but don't hold me to that, I'm losing my mind these days. Depending on how long I'm training the person (most of my clients do 30' sessions, a few do 1 hour), I'll do 1 or 2 sets of leg extensions as the first leg exercise of the day while they are fresh. Weights start easy until they get some recruitment happening (you can generally feel it or at least I think I can, I'm probably just projecting). At that point, I'll bump the weight anytime they can get 20 reps in good form. After a 2-3 weeks, I'll drop reps to 12-15 and raise the weight. I don't think it ever quite gets to failure but the last few reps are an effort to be sure. I typically take clients to the leg press after leg extensions. My thinking is to integrate the VM into a compound leg movement while it's activated or potentiated or whatever (it's late and I've been writing all day, cut me some slack here). Clients sure seem to 'feel' the VM working more if I use leg extension -> leg press than the reverse order. Might just be residual fatigue though. how do I know when to stop using the leg extensions? Basically when the knee problems go away. I typically see this problem with imbalances in women (who are more prone to patellar mistracking because of what's called a larger Q angle). They'll complain of being knock kneed or their knees clicking when they climb stairs or just general diffuse pain in the kneecap when they work out or leg press or whatever (this imbalance happens a lot in people who do a lot of step classes since there isn't a lot of resistance in the top range of motion). After 3-4 weeks of doing the leg extensions regularly, most of it clears up unless the problem is some congential or more serious (i.e. chondromalacia patellae). Once the pain has gone away (and I can usually see an improvement in the muscle by that point, clients who just ahve this flat spot where their VM should be get a little muscle showing there), I'll typically only have them do the leg extensions once a week or so. Consider it a 'tune up' so they don't revert back to bad motor patterns. Realated note but not really. Fred commented on extensions and squats both strengthening quads but he didn't know how much differnce there was. According to Sale (Neural Adaptation to resistance training, Med Sci Sports Exerc 20 (Suppl) S135-S145, 1988), one study examined this. had individuals squat and then looked at strength gain on leg press and leg extension. Squat strenght improved by 75%. Leg press strength improved by about 35% or so. Leg extension strength improved less than 10%. So, it would seem that 'strengthening the quads' is not just 'strengthening the quads'. once again, specificity holds. Want to improve your squats, squat. Want to improve your extensions, extension. But don't expect one to meaningfully improve the other. Lyle McDonald, CSCS "The ketogenic diet simulates the metabolism of a fasting body....As a fasting body burns it own fat for energy, so a person on a ketogenic diet derives energy principally by burning fat rather than from the more common energy source, carbohydrate." John Freeman M.D. in "The Epilepsy Diet Treatment- An Introduction to the Ketogenic Diet"
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#3. Brooks and Dinosaur Training - from jon and stacy ziegler
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Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 21:35:51 +0000 From: jon and stacy ziegler <rutger1@jps.net> Subject: Brooks and Dinosaur Training I have to agree with Rob Spector about the comment concerning Dinosaur Training. Although some of the methods he suggests might be a bit dangerous (a half empty keg over the head for instance), there are some suggestions that might be beneficial to all of us. How many have done curls with a thick handled 50 lb. dumbell? It gets interesting. A farmers walk with 200 pounds (100 in each hand) for distance? We look for intensity, I would suggest that carrying two 100 lb. dumbells for 100 feet, or 100 yards is as intense as it gets. I don't think doing these frequently is a good idea, but a sand bag carry to add variety to your workout won't hurt. Replace a deadlift day with it. By the way is it spelled Labrea or Labrae? I don't know. So, sloooooooow pull-up guy, have you met the female athlete yet? Really struggle! Auf Weidersehen, Jon
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#4. Re: Superslow - from Sonofsquat
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 02:20:48 EDT From: Sonofsquat <Sonofsquat@aol.com> Subject: Re: Superslow Nic Oliver wrote: <As well as being into weigths, I play hockey in goal. I find after a cycle of superslow that, presumably because of the speed at which my muscles have adapted to training, my reactions and speed of movement, particularly leg movements, have slowed up.> The SAID principle (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands) states that you will gain strength in the paths you train in. To get fast, you must train fast! If you train slow, you will be slow! Of course, skill has a lot to do with it. Superslow may indeed cause some strength gain, but it will not help your reflexes or speed as a goal tender! Fred Hatfield II
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#5. Re: Volume - from Sonofsquat
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 03:00:11 EDT From: Sonofsquat <Sonofsquat@aol.com> Subject: Re: Volume jon and/or stacy ziegler wrote: <I don't think anyone is sidestepping the issue of "what is volume". If the volume folks need a definition then they should supply one to the HIT folks since the volume folks are the ones who do volume. So, volume folks, what is volume? I'm doing one set to failure, successfully (HD II), volume doesn't concern me.> If this question is pertaining to my asking, I simply want to know who is concidered a "volume folk". So, I (if I am of this nature) will obligue. Volume is how many sets and reps you are doing. Plain and simple. "High volume" is in the eye of the trainee. Certainly, running 3 miles a day is high volume (a few thousand, low intensity reps), but it is needed for long distance running -- and if he or she's going to run a marathon, it's probably too LOW of a volume! Volume which is too high is also subject to the goal at hand. 1 or 2 sets of 20 in the squat is too high for a powerlifter who is peaking, but perhaps not so for a bodybuilder or a glycolytic athlete at certain stages of training. Of course, I am speaking from an athletic point of view! Mass building, fitness, or what ever needs a different approach, but I still believe that volume has to be specific to the task at hand. Sometimes high volume is needed, sometimes not... Then again, folks who believe in the notion that there is only "one way" to make a muscle stronger, and that different types of strength don't exist would tend to disagree! Fred Hatfield II www.colba.net/~john295 ("EXPLOSIVE REFLECTIONS")
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#6. Cardio / Thanks - from Blues man7
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:20:38 EDT From: Blues man7 <Bluesman7@aol.com> Subject: Cardio / Thanks Thanks to those of you who chose to answer my request for info on cardio work both here on the list and privately. Much appreciated, and further proof of the great value of this forum. Elliott bluesman7@aol.com
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#7. cardio retarded? - from Bob Badour
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:43:43 -0400 From: Bob Badour <73752.1624@compuserve.com> Subject: cardio retarded? In reply to Sandeep De's comments in HIT Digest #122: >>There is no such thing as a bad tool or a good tool in training<< Fine. >>all kinds of retarded cardio << Isn't this a little contradictory? How exactly is cardio retarded? Is 'retarded' neither good nor bad? Or does the adjective apply more to the athlete? >>Will she clue in? No.<< Did I hear you call the woman clueless? >>So why is it that sprinters and other athletes who train hard with weights and avoid cardio work still develop ripped physiques?<< So why do some rather famous bodybuilders with massive ripped physiques make the news by dropping dead from heart failure? >>her yuppie gym<< Why exactly do you take the time to identify the gym as a 'yuppie gym'? Is a yuppie gym better than other kinds of gyms? Or does this adjective show disdain for the gym? Sandeep, you often have a lot of good points that I seldom read because I find your posts too long. I had an english teacher in highschool who recommended editing everything to 1/3 its length. I suggest you start by cutting out anything that anyone could take as inflammatory, derogatory or hostile. You will gain a wider audience with more effective prose. Regards, Bob
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#8. HIT Digest #122 - Reply to Nic Oliver's Question on SuperSlow - from Timothy J. Ryan
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:36:12 -0400 From: "Timothy J. Ryan" <72263.2770@compuserve.com> Subject: HIT Digest #122 - Reply to Nic Oliver's Question on SuperSlow > I have been using it (SuperSlow), for a while, with good size and strength gains. > However, it seems to have elicited one response I had not thought of: > As well as being into weigths, I play hockey in goal. I find after a > cycle of superslow that, presumably because of the speed at which my > muscles have adapted to training, my reactions and speed of movement, > particularly leg movements, have slowed up. > Is this just me? I'm guessing that it's a more general problem and that > the training needs to be compensated for with faster movements. There may be several explanations for your apparent loss of reaction time and speed of movement in goal. One thing is for certain however, SuperSlow strength training did NOT slow you down! And, training with fast movements in the weight room will NOT make you fast! For one, how do you know you were actually slower? Do you have some sort of measurement that proves it? Perceptions and feelings are not reliable indicators. Maybe the other players you were up against were simply better than the players you competed against in the past. Perhaps you are just out of practice with the specific motor skills related to hockey goal tending? Perhaps you played hockey too soon after your last workout and your muscles were in a state of fatigue and trying to recuperate. Perhaps you were a bit sluggish from not enough sleep? Or, for nutritional reasons? Perhaps ...? There are numerous factors that could explain it. It is a physiologic impossiblity and a complete contradiction of the laws of physics that SuperSlow made you slower. Tim Ryan
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#9. Dinosaur training - from bull
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 19:02:31 EST From: bull <STRIETPJ@miamiu.acs.muohio.edu> Subject: Dinosaur training I'd simply like to defend Mr. Kubik. Brooks has great ideas on training that c an benefit everyone. You don't have to agree with everything he reccomends, bu t you surely can take something positive away from the book. For example, afte r implementing sandbag and rock lifting into my routine, I've hit new PR's in m y deadlift and overhead press. I therefore don't see how anyone can call his t raining methods Globy-gook or whatever it was that person called it. Besides h aving great ideas on training, Brooks is very motivating. If you don't want to go out to the garage and do some heavy training after reading a few chapters o f the book,you might want to call your physician and have your head checked. I n a time when we see so much trash in mainstream training publications, it is n ice to see someone like Brooks promoting result producing methods. We need more people like Brooks. Like I said, you don't have to agree with everything he says-I don't-but I feel many of his methods can add a great deal of variatio nto a routine. Keep an open mind about it. One more thing, is it now essen tial to be a "physiologist" in order to have any type of knowledge or opinions about strength training?? Science has its place, I don't deny that, but it is ridiculous to scoff at someone's ideas just because they don't have a bunch of letters and abbreviations after their name. Trench time, and "paying one's due s" still count for something in my book.
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#10. Cardio - from Paul Englert
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:16:53 +1200 From: Paul Englert <Paul.Englert@vuw.ac.nz> Subject: Cardio In reply to the questions about cardio for fat loss I thought I would chime in with my experience. First it is important to define purpose. My purpose was fat loss, not generally cardiovascular improvement. I tend towards CKD dieting at most six weeks in a row but more likely four. Experience has taught me that cardio is detrimental to maintaining muscle mass. I limit calories to around 12gm per lb. I use the ECA stack and yohimbie day on day off for five days/carb up in the weekend. If I was to include cardio at all it would only be in the last week or two and only because I was out for a show. I would also accept that the price I would pay for that extra leanness is muscle loss. Over time dieting for me has become very much calories in/calories out while priming your body to maintain muscle mass and be in the most receptive state to burn fat. If the deficit is too great, eg. by increased cardio your body becomes catabolic. Moreover, weight training is a must to maintain the muscle mass you have worked so hard to build (using HIT/HD of course!!). My moral. Limit cardio, diet smart, supplement smarter, and train appropriately.