HIT Digest #129

Tuesday, April 21, 1998 22:40:49

This digest contains the following messages:

#1. Re: Lat Exercises - Comments Required - from Alson Kemp
#2. Re: Body composition - from Alson Kemp
#3. Re: Training and reaction time - from Sonofsquat
#4. Re: getting big - from OnkieDonky
#5. Unknown - from Kevin Dye
#6. Interval training - from Lyle McDonald
#7. Re: HIT Digest #128; Androstene - from Ken Roberts
#8. the older athlete - from Michael Morgan
#9. Re: HIT Digest #128 - from Andrew M. Baye
#10. Re: HIT Digest #127 - from DejaGroove
#11. Re: HIT Digest #128 - from DejaGroove
#12. Re: HIT Digest #128 - from DejaGroove
#13. Re: HIT Digest #127 - from DejaGroove

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#1. Re: Lat Exercises - Comments Required - from Alson Kemp
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Date: 20 Apr 1998 16:18:31 -0700 From: Alson Kemp <Alson.Kemp@nsc.com> Subject: Re: Lat Exercises - Comments Required Duncan Feder wrote: As Mentzer says "...begin with a shrug type movement..." I find it extremely difficult to do so. Am I losing effectiveness? My grip gives out before my lats do, should I use hooks or wraps to give a proper workout to the lat? One quick comment about your grip dying: wraps and hooks are great if you're lifting fairly heavy (shrugs over 250#, deadlift over 275#, etc). If your hands are just slipping and need a little more grip, use what I use: take an old wash cloth or dish towel and cut it into 5" (12cm) squares. Use these between your hands and the bars. They've done wonders for me and I very rarely use straps anymore. They're cheaper than gloves (essentially free), last longer and if they begin to stink (which mine never have done), you can throw them away. Stay away from straps and hooks until you HAVE to use them. Remember, your forearms are muscles, too. WRT back exercises: I never use machines for my back anymore. I'm not anti-machine, just that I have a better workout off them. Right now, I rotate through bent over rows ( ;) ;) ;) ), augmented close-grip chins (hang 35# (20kg) between my legs for 8 reps. I weigh 220# (100kg)), and regular pullups. All are done for at least a 4-4 count. As everyone here will tell you, it's not what exercise you do, it's how long the set takes and how much intensity it takes to complete the set. Generally, I do two sets per exercise (I'm not intense enough to get it all done in one ;)). 8 reps, 4 seconds up, 4 seconds down. -Alson

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#2. Re: Body composition - from Alson Kemp
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Date: 20 Apr 1998 16:19:01 -0700 From: Alson Kemp <Alson.Kemp@nsc.com> Subject: Re: Body composition Roy wrote: Does anybody out there know a simple way to determine your lean body mass? A simple estimation can be had from some tables in the back of the the book, The Zone (by Barry Sears). This is a very popular book and can be had in any store (probably in Australia, too). The tables will probably get within 1% or so of your actual body fat. Basically, you measure your waist size and then measure your wrist size. Subtract your wrist size from your waist size and, along with your body weight, use this table to determine your fat %. Based on some old Met Life insurance estimation system and works reasonably well. (No flames please. We all know that this method is DEFINITELY an approximation, but then most of us don't care what the exact body composition is.) -Alson Kemp

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#3. Re: Training and reaction time - from Sonofsquat
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:52:32 EDT From: Sonofsquat <Sonofsquat@aol.com> Subject: Re: Training and reaction time Ladies and Gentlemen, Well, I thought I'd rattle a few cages with this one! Let me back up and state that "training" especially in the athletic sense, is much more than weight room activity. A goaltender will not get faster (he must move short distances very quickly) on compensatory acceleration alone (although there is some research that suggests that faster movements do equate to better motor development than slower movements as it pertains to weight training). He must also use on ice drills as well. Goal tending is done primarily in the ATP cycle as well as the CP cycle in that all his movements are quick and explosive. It only makes sense that he must train in those pathways, not the glycolytic pathway of superslow. The old notion that weight lifting will make you muscle bound and slow is now rebuked... But that myth came about for a good reason: because it WAS happening! Folks who spent their time in the weight room got big and strong but never bothered to keep flexible and teach their "new found" bodies to move fast! They indeed did make poor athletes. Goal tenders will not only need explosive abilities in their legs, but also extremely fast limb speed. They must be able to send neural impulses to the correct body part in massive amounts at once... Not slowly and over time. Super slow may eventually tax the nervous system in the later reps, but it will be a far cry from the sports specific training of using CAT and explosive training, as well as agility drills, plyometrics, and on ice practice. (By the way, NEVER have I once told anyone to jump off a 9 foot box -- some folks like to think I do!) To answer some comments: <<From a height of 4 ft., slowly lower a 25 lb. plate on to your foot. From the same height, drop the same plate on to your foot..>> Not the same thing... A free falling 25 lb plate is not under control, CAT and explosive training are always done under control. <<> The SAID principle.... >> <<I agree with the above, and will go further and say that since training with slow reps and training with "fast" reps are both so slow compared to velocity of limbs (or around joints) in athletic activities that both methods should be catagorized as "training slow.">> I do agree. But the difference is in the intent to move at maximal speeds while weight training. << but training "slow" will not _hinder_ you from becoming "fast".>> It will unless he actually does something to keep his speed up! <<Increasing the strength of muscles increases the potential for improvements in speed.>> Increases the potential, yes. Increases speed, no. <<Superslow may indeed cause some strength gain, but it will not help your reflexes or speed as a goal tender!>...According to the SAID principle, neither will "explosive weightlifting". If you want to improve your reflexes in goal have a few of your friends fire shots at you for an hour a week.>> The differences are not in the actual muscles being trained, but in the energy systems being utilized. Furthermore, I agreed to this by saying he must practice the skills as well. << And could you show me non-NSCA/ISSA studies? >> By the way, the ISSA isn't in the business of conducting studies. I don't discriminate between NSCA studies and "non-NSCA" studies...But sure, I'll send you a list of references (Email me a request). << To get fast, you must train fast! If you train slow, you will be slow!.... Your kidding right ?.>> Would you tell a 100 meter sprinter he need not train fast? That all he need do is jog 100 meters and during his race, he'd be able to outsprint the competition? << paraphrasing: someone asked why their friend is so fast in the martial arts, yet trains slow>> pardon me if I mis - paraphrased... The answer is that your friend doesn't really train that slow! How fast are her movements? Bet they are at least 80% of her top speed! A far cry from "superslow"! In conclusion, In an effort to be brief with my former post, I may not have fully explained myself. My idea of training has proven not to be the same as others... I look at training as the overall development of a human body encompassing more than weight room activity. Superslow training may indeed increase his levels of strength, but it misses out on many aspects of training such as stretch reflexes and proper neural adaptations. Weight training is only one part of an integrated approach to increase athletic performance! If all weight training will do is increase strength, then weight training is a waste of a goal tender's time because he doesn't need great levels of strength to stop a puck. Fred Hatfield II

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#4. Re: getting big - from OnkieDonky
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:49:27 EDT From: OnkieDonky <OnkieDonky@aol.com> Subject: Re: getting big Adam: The Bench Press, Squat, and Deadlift are the best exercises to do to pack on mass. Couple these with a lot of rest and a lot of good food, and you'll be big in no time. You might also wanna throw in some Military presses, chin- ups, and leg presses for good measure. The basic exercises are always the most productive, if you do them with enough intensity. Good Luck, Adrian

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#5. Unknown - from Kevin Dye
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:43:01 +0930 From: "Kevin Dye" <kevind@picknowl.com.au> Subject: Unknown >Do squats until you can't, then some press >movement until you can't. Eat, rest, sleep. Then run or ride a bike (outside). >Eat, rest, sleep again until your not sore. Then deadlift until you can't and >do a pulling movement until you can't. Then start over again. Quit reading >and start doing. I thought that DMartin's advice was spot on! When all is said and done there are only a handful of truly effective exercises that will make a dramatic change to your body. In reality, all one has to do is get stronger on the basics; squat, deadlift, a pulling exercise, and a pushing exercise. Why all the confusion? Regards Kevin Dye [kevind@picknowl.com.au]

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#6. Interval training - from Lyle McDonald
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:06:08 -0500 (CDT) From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Interval training >Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:40:18 -0700 >From: John Vormbaum <johnv@TRATNET.com> >Subject: HI Interval Training > >Hello, > >Is anybody out there familiar with the Tabata (Japanese Olympic speed >skating team--aerobic workouts of 6-8 intervals of 20sec. on / 10sec. >off; Total Agony) or Tremblay research studies done on high-intensity >interval training versus steady-state aerobics? While perusing various >sites I came across Clarence Bass' page--he's a huge proponent of >Tabata's protocol. I've got Tremblay's paper *somewhere* on my floor. Have been a big proponent of interval training for fat loss for a couple of years. What do you need to know? Lyle McDonald, CSCS "It's 200 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark. And we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it" -Jake and Elwood Blues

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#7. Re: HIT Digest #128; Androstene - from Ken Roberts
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:00:29 -0700 (PDT) From: SAILOR@webtv.net (Ken Roberts) Subject: Re: HIT Digest #128; Androstene This is for MSdfense and any other teenaged person out there. You don't need the stuff. You already have it! What you have is what older guys like me no longer posess and THAT's the reason we waste our money on stuff that promises to give it back! And it doesn't work, either. Trib. is supposed to raise your leutinizing hormone (L.H.) levels (that's the hormone that stimulates test. production). I took the stuff - it had absolutely no effect on my blood L.H. levels. Andro gives you only a short burst increase in your Test. levels; not enough to make much if any difference in your recovery ability. And I will guarantee you that you already produce WAY more DHEA naturally than if you took 100mg. (or maybe even more) of the exogenous DHEA. And here's the real pits...there's the probabiity that you could knock out your own body's production of DHEA or Test. (the body will produce only as much as it perceives it needs). Now here's the thing. Don't be in such a hurry. At 15 years of age you can't have been lifting any more than a year or so. You want to get BIG? EAT! And then eat some more-heck, your folks are paying for it. Follow the excellent advice r.e. lifting and workouts you get from this digest and CYBERPUMP! And eat, eat eat. In another year you won't recognize yourself. And I'll give you a 100% solid, money back guarantee on that. Ken Roberts

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#8. the older athlete - from Michael Morgan
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:56:58 PDT From: "Michael Morgan" <michael_morgan@hotmail.com> Subject: the older athlete This is from today's (4/21) Washington Post Health section: Georgetown attorney Max Berry told me he hurt his knees and shoulders after working out with a personal trainer and was told by the sports medicine specialist in the orthopedic department of the Mayo Clinic, "No one over 40 should lift anything weighing more than two pounds above their shoulders. Never do military presses [push a barbell up over your head]. And once past 40 don't do any lunges, even modified. Chances are you'll do them wrong and hurt your knees." My comment is: What? *2* pounds?! That means I can't even put a big book on one of the top shelves in the office library. I'd hate to see what this guy would say about deadlifts or (shudder) squats.... Does this make any sense at all? Michael ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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#9. Re: HIT Digest #128 - from Andrew M. Baye
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:01:18 -0400 From: "Andrew M. Baye" <drewbaye@gdi.net> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #128 >>>it's my layman understanding that HIT is good for Type II(b) fibers, provided I don't use SuperSlow. <<< No, this is not true. As I've stated previously, muscle fiber recruitment is related to the amount of force the muscle is called upon to produce during exercise, and NOT the speed of movement. The more force the muscle is required to produce, the greater the number of motor units recruited. The type IIb fibers are recruited only after all other fibers, when the muscle is working at the highest possible intensity. Since slower rep speeds produce a lower amount of momentum, and thus less force in the direction of movement, the muscles must produce more force, and thus contract harder to move the resistance, in which case more fibers are recruited. SuperSlow allows for greater recruitment of ALL muscle fiber types, including the type IIb. Expect an article dealing with this subject on Cyberpump! in the near future. This "train fast to be fast" stuff has got to die. Andrew M. Baye The SuperSlow Exercise Guild http://www.superslow.com/

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#10. Re: HIT Digest #127 - from DejaGroove
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:26:19 EDT From: DejaGroove <DejaGroove@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #127 In a message dated 98-04-19 23:40:25 EDT, you write: << This statement is absolutely false. Muscle fiber recruitment is dependent upon the force the muscle is called upon to produce during an exercise and NOT the speed at which the exercise is performed. As a matter of fact, there is an inverse relationship between muscle fiber recruitment and repetition speed: the faster you lift, the more momentum produces force in the direction of movement, the less force the muscles are required to produce to lift the weight, and therefore the lower the percentage of all fiber types recruited. >> I have never seen any scientific evidence that coroborates your point. Please back up what you are saying. Meantime, to back up what I am saying, please check any basic physiology text book. According to you, there seems to be no difference in the character of fast and slow twich fibers, if you can train them all the same way wqually effectively. Do you agree with this? "If you must develop explosiveness in a particular skill, then you must practice that skill in an explosive fashion. While not entirely safe, this is a necessary part of many sports. Perform strength training to improve your physical performance and increase your resistance to injury during sports and recreational activities, and practice those activities to become better/faster/more efficient in their performance. Do not attempt to mix the two though, because what you end up with will be less effective for either purpose." And why do you think training a specific skill explosively will improve explosiveness? Well, certainly there are neural factors involved, but mostly, it is because you are training the type IIb fibers! I agree that explosive movements can be higher risk. That is why my general population clients rarely do them. Athletes, however, who are hopefully better conditioned and who obviously require this kind of skill, must train that way, both in strength training and in training for that specific sport- skill.

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#11. Re: HIT Digest #128 - from DejaGroove
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:42:06 EDT From: DejaGroove <DejaGroove@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #128 In a message dated 98-04-20 23:11:34 EDT, you write: << 'm new to HIT, and I play tournament volleyball (beach and indoor). I've heard different theories about explosive power training, and it's my layman understanding that HIT is good for Type II(b) fibers, provided I don't use SuperSlow. Thus far, I've been using the 2/4 tempo, and let me tell you, I've never left the gym feeling so exhausted. SOMETHING'S working somewhere. >> are you training plyometrically?

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#12. Re: HIT Digest #128 - from DejaGroove
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:46:23 EDT From: DejaGroove <DejaGroove@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #128 In a message dated 98-04-20 23:11:34 EDT, you write: << In any event, I cannot afford to have my vertical leap or speed compromised. Is HIT the plan for me, or is HIT just working the Type I fibers? Do I have to go back to the old program (volume, basically) on which I haven't made any gains for six months? I'm hoping not. >> Even I will agree that HIT and superslow both work Type II fibers. The question is, do they work the type IIb fibers? HIT, of course can work any fiber type, because, to my knowledge, HIT does not put a limit on speed of movement. Superslow, however, while a good way to increase strength and type IIA fibers, remains a point of contention on this digest. Eytan Koch, CSCS

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#13. Re: HIT Digest #127 - from DejaGroove
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:49:52 EDT From: DejaGroove <DejaGroove@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #127 In a message dated 98-04-19 23:40:25 EDT, you write: << o if I do a 1RM slowly, I'm not using Type IIb fibers. Nonsense. If you look at any of Digby Sale's papers, you'll see that fibers recruit based on force requirements. Above 80-85% of Max Voluntary Isometric Contraction (MVIC which we roughly equate with 1RM) you get 100% motor unit activation. And yes I'm aware that you can increase force requirements by increasing movement velocity but that won't change the fact that, fast or slow, above 85% of 1RM, you get all the fibers recruited. >> So how do the fiber types differ? If training them one way recruits them all equally, there would seem to be no difference in the character or function of the fiber types. Incidenatally, you produce more force at a lower speed than a higher speed. Is that what you were refering to?

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