-------------------- 1 --------------------
#1. Re: Recruitment and speed of movement - from Erkki Turunen
Top
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:49:59 +0300 From: Erkki Turunen <eraturu@mail.dlc.fi> Subject: Re: Recruitment and speed of movement >From: "James Krieger" <jkrieger@wsu.edu> >> The type IIb fibers are recruited only after all other fibers, when the >> muscle is working at the highest possible intensity. > >True. However, this is intensity defined as force requirements or the >amount of resistance, not "% momentary ability" or "inroad" as you often >define it. Fatigue does not dictate Type IIb fiber recruitment; force >requirements do. If all muscle fibers are involved when the load is 85% or higher of the maximal force then at that load they all are recruited right from rep one. Let's suppose that the weight is 60% of 1RM. Then of course a part - if not all - of IIb fibers are unused to begin with. But when IIa fibers get fatigued so that they along type I fibers cannot produce the required force no more is the set over or are those at first unused IIb fibers called for help in that stage? This is a very important question to me and it seems rational that the latter would be true. I understand that with light weights the set usually ends due to lactic acid buildup and not due to contractile failure but if the weight is reasonable, say 70%, then maybe those IIb fibers are used in the last reps if the set is continued until failure. >Since Superslow increases time >under tension per repetition, it decreases the amount of weight that is >able to be used due to fatigue, assuming we want to keep TUT within a >certain range. I understand that you cannot get as many reps with a certain weight with a slower cadence but why would you have to decrease weight in SS for a certain TUT? If a trainee can get 10 reps with 2/4 speed why couldn't he get 4 reps with 10/5 cadence with the same weight? The TUT would be 1 min in both cases. Thus it seems that even Superslow would enable substantial weights if the rep number is kept low. Erkki Turunen
-------------------- 2 --------------------
#2. Plyometrics and Sprint Training - from Andrew M. Baye
Top
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:19:47 -0400 From: "Andrew M. Baye" <drewbaye@gdi.net> Subject: Plyometrics and Sprint Training >>>I was considering a super slow type program, but I am afraid of losing quickness. Could i compromise for the lack of speed in my lifting with regular bi-weekly plyometrics and sprint training?<<< SuperSlow will not cause you to lose quickness. How quickly you move during exercise will have no effect on how quickly you are able to perform other movements. And if you value your safety you'll avoid plyometrics. The only thing they produce is injury. Unless you want to improve you skill in performing a particular plyometric drill, which skill will not transfer to improvements in any other movements. For more on this read http://www.superslow.com/plyometrics.html The same goes for sprint training. Unless you're a sprinter or participate in a sport which involves sprinting of some sort, there's no reason to perform sprint training. It will improve your sprinting speed, but will do nothing to improve speed or quickness in other movements. Andrew M. Baye The SuperSlow Exercise Guild http://www.superslow.com/
-------------------- 3 --------------------
#3. SuperSlow and Explosive Power - from Andrew M. Baye
Top
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:32:44 -0400 From: "Andrew M. Baye" <drewbaye@gdi.net> Subject: SuperSlow and Explosive Power >>>So according to you, can you develop increased explosive power through superslow training? Eytan Koch, CSCS>>> Although this question was posed to Lyle, I would like to add my response as well. Increased explosiveness in any activity is a combination of two things, increased muscular strength, which allows one to generate more force, and improved skill in performing the movement quickly. SuperSlow is safer and more effective than explosive exercise movements for the purpose of increasing strength. One must practice a particular movement explosively to become faster at performing the particular movement. For example, lets say we want to increase the force of impact produced by a roundhouse kick to the head. To increase the "explosiveness" in this particular movement to the greatest possible degree it is necessary to strengthen all of the involved muscles to the greatest degree possible (we'll use the quads as an example), and to practice performing the movement as fast as possible with perfect form. Performing explosive leg extensions will improve my ability (mostly skill improvements) to perform explosive leg extensions, but will not translate to improvements in my skill in performing the finishing snap of a roundhouse kick explosively. It is not a very safe or effective means of increasing quadriceps strength either. If I perform SuperSlow leg extensions, this will have no effect on the speed of my kicks either, but it will produce an increase in quadriceps strength, which is the whole point of performing the exercise in the first place. Realize that explosiveness in any particular movement is skill related, and has nothing to do with the speed at which one exercises. Exercise is for improving one's physical condition and increasing resistance to injury during explosive sports, and should be performed slowly to increase effectiveness and safety. Explosive skills, however, must be practiced in an explosive manner. Exercise and skill training are two entirely separate and distinct activities. Trying to mix the two only reduces the effectiveness and safety of both. Andrew M. Baye The SuperSlow Exercise Guild http://www.superslow.com/
-------------------- 4 --------------------
#4. Re: Fatigue and growth - from Lyle McDonald
Top
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:36:33 -0500 (CDT) From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Re: Fatigue and growth >Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:40:47 +1200 >From: Paul Englert <Paul.Englert@vuw.ac.nz> >Subject: Fatigue and muscle growth > >Lyle wrote:- <snip my yammerings> > >On this topic I would be interested on your thoughts on accumulative >fatigue/benefits of multiple sets. You note that as As tension reqs. go up, >fatigue goes down since the set times must be shorter. However if we were >to use multiple sets the set starts from a point where there is all ready a >degree of inroad/fatigue call it what you will. Thus tension could be high >by using a relatively heavy weight AND fatigue will also be relatively high. IMO it would depend strictly on the rest interval. That is, I see no reason wh you can't use multiple submaixmal sets with a short rest interval (i.e. German Volume Training which uses 10 sets of 10 reps with a load you could do 20 reps with and a 1' rest interval) to generate cumulative fatigue through the sets to get an adaptive response. Louie Simmon's methods (multiple sets of 2-3 with 30-60 second rests with 55-65% of 1RM) are very similar to this. If you take such a long rest that all traces of fatigue dissipate (which also depends on the momentary effort produced during that set), I don't know that you'll get the same cumulative fatigue or growth response. Lyle McDonald, CSCS "Your kung-fu is no good! Now you must fight.....ME!" - Any guy on Kung Fu Theatre
-------------------- 5 --------------------
#5. Re: power - from Lyle McDonald
Top
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:36:41 -0500 (CDT) From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Re: power >Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:51:44 EDT >From: DejaGroove <DejaGroove@aol.com> >Subject: Re: HIT Digest #130 > >Re: HIT #130 > >Lyle- > >So according to you, can you develop increased explosive power through >superslow training? It depends (how's that for a copout answer). If you incresae someone's maximum force capacity (which I feel will happen with slower movements speeds since it more evenly loads the full ROM), their explosive power will go up *to a point*. Simply because a stronger muscle will be able to move a given mass (in this case let's assume it's the body in a vertical jump) faster since that given mass will represent a lower percentage of maximum strenght capacity. Let's say it takes 100 lbs of force to move a given mass through space. And let's say that you have an individual who's maximum force capacity is 100 lbs (don't hassle me over unit conventions, it's late) in that movement pattern. They will not be able to generate a great deal of explosive force because it will reqire 100% of their strength capacity to move that mass. Simple force-velocity curve at work for you. Now let's say you improve that person's maximum strength capacity to 200 lbs. Now the 100 lbs of force required to move that same mass is only 50% of their maximum capacity and a basic look at the force-velocity curve will tell you that they can move that mass faster. Hence explosive power has improved (also assumes they are practicing with that implement). But this levels off at some point and increasing their maximum to 300 lbs may or may not further improve explosive speed. Because at some point you have to deal with Rate of Force Development (RFD), which is really what people are talking about when they use the nebulous terms 'explosive'. RFD represents how quickly one can bring a given amount of their force (say 1/2 maximum of force) to bear. That is, compare these two athletes: Max strength Time to reach max force Force at 0.5 seconds Athlete A 200 lbs 1 second 100 lbs Athlete B 250 lbs 2 second ~62.5 lbs Even though athlete B is stronger, if you have an event which takes less than 0.5 seconds to occur (and note that most sporting events happen in 0.2 seconds or so, I only picked 0.5 to make the math easier), Athlete A will win. If you have an event which takes 2 seconds, Athlete B will win (assuming all other things equal of course). RFD training will not optimally be developed by slow training but this has very little to do with fiber recruitment, it's more likely something that occurs in the nervous system, disinhibition, inter/intramuscular coordination, yadda, yadda, yadda. Komi showed this quite well when he compared squats to plyometrics jumps. Squats improved max strength but not RFD and plyometrics improved RFD but not max strength. So whether or not slow movement speeds will improve 'explosiveness' depends on the athelte and where they are in their development. If you take someone who's new to training, any incresae in strength will improve their explosive capacity. But at some point, methods to improve maximum strength will lose their benefit and you have to work on improving RFD. The other thing is, as I stated in my comments to Fred Jr, is that 99% of weight training movements do not lend themselves to explosive lifting. The simple fact of physics that velocity must start and end at zero means that the higher the initial acceleration, the earlier and faster the deceleration phase must be (I'll spare everyone the car anaologies again). Greg Wilson showed that a bench press with 81% of 1RM taking 1.5 seconds spends over half the movement deccelerating the bar. The faster you try to move, the greater the decceleration phase. Most athletic activities require that the athlete accelerate (to as great a degree possible) through the entire movment (think of push off during sprinting or throwing a shotput). performing traditional weight training exercises explosively will 'teach' an athlete to slow down at the end of the movement to avoid hyperextending the joint. Which is why alternate training methods like plyometrics, medicine ball stuff, etc is typically used for RFD training. And no I don't want to have this argument again right now, just commenting. Lyle McDonald, CSCS "Your kung-fu is no good! Now you must fight.....ME!" - Any guy on Kung Fu Theatre
-------------------- 6 --------------------
#6. Re: HIT Digest #131; ABCDE diet - from Ken Roberts
Top
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:00:52 -0700 (PDT) From: SAILOR@webtv.net (Ken Roberts) Subject: Re: HIT Digest #131; ABCDE diet Tried it. Got fat. Ken
-------------------- 7 --------------------
#7. Re: HIT Digest #131 - from DejaGroove
Top
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:28:20 EDT From: DejaGroove <DejaGroove@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #131 In a message dated 98-04-26 22:59:00 EDT, you write: << I was considering a super slow type program, but I am afraid of losing quickness. Could i compromise for the lack of speed in my lifting with regular bi-weekly plyometrics and sprint training? >> You all probably know how I will answer this one, but here it is: the plyos and sprints will help, but the superslow will hinder. Eytan Koch, CSCS
-------------------- 8 --------------------
#8. Re: HIT Digest #131 - from jon and stacy ziegler
Top
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:49:19 +0000 From: jon and stacy ziegler <rutger1@jps.net> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #131 On Digest 131 someone mentioned GVT training. I hvae seen that monogram around, but I don't know what it stands for, or the purpose. Yes I am ignorant (peasant like some would say). So if you know what GVT stands for clue us folks in who don't. Thanks. Jon
-------------------- 9 --------------------
#9. Re: HIT Digest #131 - from DejaGroove
Top
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 02:07:39 EDT From: DejaGroove <DejaGroove@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #131 According to Zatsiorsky, there are three important factors in force development (regarding motor units (MUs) and muscle fibers, excepting psychological, neuroendocrinological, hormonal, and other such factors). We have discussed the number of motor units firing. I now agree with Lyle that a slow 1 rep max recruits 100% of muscle fibers. The rate that the MUs fire (called rate coding) is also important. The faster the rate coding, the higher the force development. Also, the synchronization of motor unit firing is important. Highly developed power athletes fire their MUs in synchronicity to develop even great forces. Most of us do not do this. While he does not explicitly state this, Zatsriorsky seems to imply that only through explosive training can all three of these factors exist. Kraemer has said it on any number of occasions. Zatsiosky, by the way, feels that slow concentric training is not all that different from isometric training. Kraemer believes that slow training does not increase one's ability to generate force rapidly. Maximal force development in sports is often less important than high speed maximal force development. Superslow training can make one stronger, but this strength can only occur at very low velocities. As many have already pointed out in this forum, you can move more weight when you slow down the rep. But what athlete has the time to generate this type of maximum strength? It is simply not practical. Eytan Koch, CSCS
-------------------- 10 --------------------
#10. Re: HIT Digest #131 - from MacThai
Top
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:20:07 EDT From: MacThai <MacThai@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #131 Re: fast - slow. Training fast in the weight room WILL not make FASTER on the field.. Training slower in the weight room (with Super Slow, or H.I.T.) WILL not make make you slower on the field. Training slower is safer. You pick the one you want to follow. Can we end this discussion now?
-------------------- 11 --------------------
#11. Re: HIT Digest #131 - from Sonofsquat
Top
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:31:02 EDT From: Sonofsquat <Sonofsquat@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #131 In a message dated 98-04-26 23:06:51 EDT, Baye writes: << As for SuperSlow requiring a lower percentage of one's one rep maximum, you forget to consider that one's one rep maximum is speed dependent. One's one rep max using a 10 second lifting speed will not be as high as one's one rep max using a 2 second lifting speed.>> Going by the definition of limit strength, speed one RM is not speed dependant. Limit strength is the ability to apply force one time with no time considerations whatsoever. This is displayed in powerlifting where the judges don't care if you make the lift in one second or 10 seconds. <<Also consider that whatever percentage of one's MVC one uses is, to a degree, irrelevant. If you are contracting as hard as you possibly can, your body is going to recruit every single motor unit available.>> In super slow are you contracting as hard as possible on every rep? I believe you are only in the last one or two reps. The major differences in our philosophies is that superslow uses time under tension. I believe a better way is time under maximum tension. Compensatory acceleration will do this, as will Olympic lifting. Super slow will only do it in the last couple of reps. <<And, even more importantly, don't forget the safety issue. Even IF ballistic movements were relatively effective, (which they are not) they're still dangerous, and anyone who is concerned with their safety and long term health should avoid them like the plague. >> Compensatory acceleration is not the same thing as a ballistic movement, in many senses, neither are all the Olympic movements (although at times they are). They are more than relatively effective -- saying they are not is as foolish as saying superslow or HIT doesn't work, which I have NEVER said. Their safety comes with appropriate use at the appropriate time. Fred Hatfield II
-------------------- 12 --------------------
#12. Re: HIT Digest #131 - from Sonofsquat
Top
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:35:03 EDT From: Sonofsquat <Sonofsquat@aol.com> Subject: Re: HIT Digest #131 In a message dated 98-04-26 23:06:51 EDT, you write: << I was considering a super slow type program, but I am afraid of losing quickness. Could i compromise for the lack of speed in my lifting with regular bi-weekly plyometrics and sprint training? >> Absolutely you can! The sprint training will help definitely. Plyometric training will take some planning -- don't (ahem) jump right into it! Get a program to ease into it and prepare yourself for it -- otherwise "The Profits of Doom" concerning plyometrics will be correct -- it will lead to injury! I'll be more than happy to help if you email me a request. By the way, the sprint training itself will take some planning as well! Fred Hatfield II
-------------------- 13 --------------------
#13. Old and rare books on exercise - from Andrew M. Baye
Top
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:11:54 -0400 From: "Andrew M. Baye" <drewbaye@gdi.net> Subject: Old and rare books on exercise A friend of mine in Miami collects, sells and trades old (pre-1950) books on strength training, strong men, bodybuilding, and various other exercise related subjects. He's got stuff that dates all the way back to the early 1,800's. He's looking for extra copies of some of Arthur's older books, particularly the Nautilus Bulletins 1 and 2, and would be willing to buy or trade for them. His name is David Landau, and he can be reached at 305-932-9879. Andrew M. Baye The SuperSlow Exercise Guild http://www.superslow.com/
-------------------- 14 --------------------
#14. Old and rare books on exercise - from Andrew M. Baye
Top
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:11:54 -0400 From: "Andrew M. Baye" <drewbaye@gdi.net> Subject: Old and rare books on exercise A friend of mine in Miami collects, sells and trades old (pre-1950) books on strength training, strong men, bodybuilding, and various other exercise related subjects. He's got stuff that dates all the way back to the early 1,800's. He's looking for extra copies of some of Arthur's older books, particularly the Nautilus Bulletins 1 and 2, and would be willing to buy or trade for them. His name is David Landau, and he can be reached at 305-932-9879. Andrew M. Baye The SuperSlow Exercise Guild http://www.superslow.com/