1. Re: What to tell ones patients?
by: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
2. Re: Strength increases
by: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
3. Re: Fiber Type and Exercise
by: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
4. Re: Andrew Baye
by: Sonofsquat <Sonofsquat@aol.com>
5. Re: Bogus Research
by: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
6. Re: But what do I really tell my patients?
by: Sandeep De <sde@golden.net>
7. Re: Power cleans
by: Lyle McDonald <lylemcd@onr.com>
8. Conspiracy
by: James Krieger <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
9. HIT DIGEST
by: Mike Strassburg <MLSTRASS@hewitt.com>
10. Re: Doctor's Exercise Prescription
by: FlexWriter <FlexWriter@aol.com>
11. Re: Power Cleans
by: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
12. Re: Definition of theory
by: James Krieger <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
13. Re: My previous experience with HIT
by: James Krieger <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
14. Re: Licensing Trainers
by: James Krieger <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
15. Re: 4 situations
by: James Krieger <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
-------------------- 1 --------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:43:02 EST
From: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
Subject: Re: What to tell ones patients?
Most doctors, not having studied exercise (which may very well be an advantage
in that most of what passes for exercise "science" in the universities is
anything but scientific) are usually very cautious about recommending any
particular program to their patients. This is completely understandable, since
many MDs are probably all to familiar with the injuries and conditions which
result from much of the nonsense being passed off as exercise, such as
aerobics and plyometrics. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of options.
Walking, a typical recommendation, while being relatively safe, does little to
nothing as far as physical conditioning goes.
My suggestion? SuperSlow. When properly performed, it is by far the safest,
most time efficient, and most effective exercise protocol there is. Certified
SuperSlow instructors are by far the most knowledgable where proper exercise
form and safety are concerned (read my article, Safety Considerations for
Exercise on Cyberpump!).
For more information on this, I suggest visiting www.superslow.com, or contacting the SuperSlow Exercise Guild at 407-260-6204.
Andrew M. Baye
-------------------- 2 --------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:56:09 EST
From: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Strength increases
James Krieger writes,
"If "a strength gain is a strength gain," then the optimal protocol for a
bodybuilder would be the same for a powerlifter and would also be the same for
an Olympic lifter."
Exactly. While the specific skills required for each sport would require
different types of skill training (practicing the lifts, posing routines,
etc.), the physical conditioning goals of each are all correllaries of
increases in muscular strength, all of which are best achieved with low-force,
high-intensity strength training.
The idea that one must train differently to develop different aspects of strength such as "power," "speed-strength," "explosive-strength," etc. is nonsense. Muscles produce force. You can increase the amount of force the muscles can produce, or you can not train or overtrain and cause a decrease in the amount of force the muscles can produce. Plain and simple.
Andrew M. Baye
www.superslow.com
You're trying to write sentences before you've learned the alphabet.
-------------------- 3 --------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:02:57 EST
From: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fiber Type and Exercise
James Krieger writes,
"Mr. Baye, there is significant real-life evidence to support the idea that you can selectively train Type II fibers over Type I fibers."
Apparently, you did not read the information on fiber typing in the Fitness
Testing article at www.superslow.com/es13.html. If you had, you'd know that
none of the research you quoted is worth a hill of beans, since there is no
accurate means of testing such a thing, and, since according to the size
principle of fiber recruitment you mentioned in a previous post, type II
fibers are only recruited AFTER all others have been, selective recruitment of
these during exercise is a myth.
Andrew M. Baye
www.superslow.com
-------------------- 4 --------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:55:54 EST
From: Sonofsquat <Sonofsquat@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Andrew Baye
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I'd like to thank Andrew for his efforts in communication. He and I talked
for about a half an hour on the 'net about what periodization really means.
He and I have some differences to work out, but due to our discussion, I
believe we are more on the same page!
The ONLY good thing that come out of HIT digest or any other list is
correspondance between folks. Andrew has done this, and I invite others to do
this as well.
Thanks Andrew, and I'll be questioning you soon!
Fred II
-------------------- 5 --------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:22:16 EST
From: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Bogus Research
James Krieger writes,
"Rather than looking at individual studies and why each one may not support a claim, he made a blanket statement about the researchers themselves"
No, I made a general statement based on what I know of the gross inaccuracies
of the tools currently available for testing strength, as well as the
sloppiness with which such studies are performed. Often, these studies are of
such short duration that skill can not be ruled out as a major factor in
improved performance (assuming that the measuring devices or methods available
were accurate, which they are not) and usually consist of insignificant study
populations.
Actually, yes, I also am making a blanket statement about the exercise science
community. If the current state of insanity in this field is any indication of
the quality of people performing research, then no, they're not conducting
valid studies. If the shoe fits...
I spoke with Arthur Jones last Sunday. In discussing the large number of so-
called "experts" he's delt with over the past few decades, he said an
interesting thing...
"Do you remember the first time you saw a giraffe? You must have thought that
it was a pretty odd looking thing. Well, what do you think a giraffe looks
like to another giraffe? It probably seems perfectly normal. Well, if you look
at these stupid @#$% people (exercise "scientists") and you think they're
normal, then what does that make you?"
Andrew M. Baye
www.superslow.com
-------------------- 6 --------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:32:21 -0500
From: Sandeep De <sde@golden.net>
Subject: Re: But what do I really tell my patients?
> From: " Raye L. Bellinger, MD" <rbellin@sacheart.com>
> So what do I tell my beginner patients?!
The most important thing for me would be to have them realize that real
benefits from exercise and dietary changes are lifestyle changes, not
something that is toyed with for a period of time and ceased when
acceptable results have been achieved. I don't feel that any substantial
benefits from exercise towards health can occur unless this is
fundamentally accepted.
----------
Sandeep De
The Power Factory: http://geocities.datacellar.net/HotSprings/4039/
"We have enough youth. How about a fountain of smart?"
-------------------- 7 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:37:54 -0600 (CST)
From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald)
Subject: Re: Power cleans
>Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:49:49 -0500
>From: "Couch, Mike" <couchm@DSD1POST.DAYTONOH.ncr.com>
>Subject: Power Cleans
>
>Please tell me how to properly and safely spot a lifter doing
>cleans?
Simple: don't. Spotting a clean or snatch or any Olympic movement is a
sure-fire way to get injured. If you're gonna teach an athlete to power
clean or power snatch, you gotta teach them how to not kill themselves. If
the clean or snatch isn't going up, do NOT try to save it, you will get
hurt. Just push the bar away from you and walk away. I always love the
reactions of hte peopl in my gym when I lose a full snatch and drop the bar
from about 4' off the ground: BANG!!!
Lyle McDonald, CSCS
-------------------- 8 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:28:46 -0800
From: "James Krieger" <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
Subject: Conspiracy
> Wow, when it rains it pours. Tons of posts coming in just at the same
> time I'm stuck with tons of work. Coincidence? Or conspiracy?
You caught all of us red-handed, Rob. We've all been calling eachother on
the phone, fabricating these discussions just to make things more difficult
for you :)
James
-------------------- 9 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:39:37 -0600
From: "Mike Strassburg"<MLSTRASS@hewitt.com>
Subject: HIT DIGEST
Is it just me or do others also dislike the way this digest seems to be
heading. Originally I thought it would be a great source for training info,
such as; new exercises to try, some great HIT style workouts that
subscribers have tried, maybe some new equipment that has made your
workouts more productive, etc....
Instead, 90% of the contents are never-ending debates about the
benefits/pitfalls of HIT, periodization, slow twitch/fast twitch,
machines/free weights, HD, HDII, Superslow, inroads, Mentzer's theories,
hypothetical training situations, etc....ad naseum!! Who the hell cares. I
think we're missing the point. I view weightlifting/exercising as I do
life; "It's about the journey, not the destination". Everyone is wasting so
much time focusing on the elusive "perfect routine" (no one can tell you
what is best for you, but you) that I feel they've all missed the boat.
Each workout is a chance for you to spend a little time with the iron. A
chance to "hit" a new PR, relieve the days stress, or just get in a great
workout. All this other crap is distracting us from the real task at hand,
pumping some iron!!
Pick a training protocol that you can fit into your current lifestyle and
enjoy it. Yes.....exercising should be enjoyable. Put some passion into
your workouts. Feel the pride of knowing that you have pushed your body
hard and have done something good for yourself. I love to feel the iron in
my hands (or a machine) and know that they are tools to help me achieve my
goals. Sure you want to keep a training log and monitor your progress or
lack of. This will tell you what exercises or routines your body responds
best to. But only you can figure this out. There are to many variables in
each individual: age, lifestyle, injuries, available equipment, training
goals, etc... for anyone to tell you exactly how to train. Take the basic
guidelines provided in the Cyberpump website and start applying them. But
don't be afraid to experiment and modify them. Then report your findings to
the digest, as this would provide "real life" information that others could
benefit from.
This is not meant to offend any of the very knowledgeable contributors to
the digest. I just feel that the digest has become to "bogged down" with
all the on-going technical debates that are not very beneficial to any of
the subscribers. Personally, I don't care about all these "big debates". I
would rather learn about a new exercise to try ( such as carrying a heavy
sand-bag up & down the stairs--TRY IT!) Or how others have designed
training routines that fit into their present lifestyle, and the results
they have achieved.
I personally train for fun, health, and athletics. I play ice hockey and use the strength I have built to muscle bigger opponents off the puck. Also, I believe a stronger body (especially the neck area) is less prone to injury. My current routine is almost perfect for me at this time in my life. It meets all my goals, is flexible enough to fit into my busy schedule, is fun to do, and I'm progressing in strength and conditioning. I workout on MON-WED-FRI, usually at 6:30am. My workouts generally take 30-40 minutes and don't wipe me out for the rest of the day. I alternate between a HIT workout and a high- intensity cardio workout. So one week I do 2 HIT workouts and one cardio, then the next week 2 cardio workouts and one HIT workout. My HIT workouts consist of 4-5 exercises done for 1 set to positive failure. I choose from the following exercises: leg press, stiff-leg deadlifts, bench press, shoulder press, chins. seated rows, dips, & thick-bar curls. On the cardio day I do a 20 minute heavy-hands workout on the treadmill keeping my heartbeat between 130-150bpm. I also do 4 minutes of a 20sec/10sec sprint routine, where you sprint for 20 seconds, then rest for 10 seconds, repeating for 4 minutes (I think this routine came from the Cyberpump website). This keeps my heart rate between 170-196 for the entire 4 minutes (this one is a killer-TRY IT!)
While this routine won't give me 20" guns or a 500# squat (thanks to severe patellar tendonitis I can't squat anymore) what it will give you is a damn good workout. One that you can fit into almost any lifestyle. One that will give you "functional" strength and a reasonably good level of cardio fitness. So I guess maybe for me, I have reached the so called "destination" as this routine is near-perfect for me. Now I'm just going to enjoy the "journey", one productive workout after another.
So to sum up my two cents worth.....you need to decide what your training goals are and then design a routine to help you achieve those goals. Pick a few exercises that you enjoy to do and concentrate on building up the poundages you use. Put some passion into your workouts, forget about what fiber types you are working, etc...., just grab some iron and challenge your body. Add in some cardio work 1-2 times a week and pretty soon you'll enjoy the real benefits; a stronger, healthier, more energetic you!
Good luck in your training endeavors..........Mike
-------------------- 10 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:19:28 EST
From: FlexWriter <FlexWriter@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Doctor's Exercise Prescription
<<Let's say I have a 45 year old man in front of me who is 50
lbs overweight, sedentary, but willing to try to improve his
lifestyle and well-being by starting a training program.
Pretend you're his physician (or in my case, his
cardiologist) and he wants advice on exercising safely and
dieting properly. He sees your nutritionist and get's a
reasonable low fat diet. He now turns to you for advice
with training techniques including frequency, duration, and
style. He really wants to get lean and mean. As far as
other problems, you feel it would be safe to pursue an
aggressive exercise program.>>
Glad you asked, Doc, as I've been working with a fellow who started out pretty
much as you describe. At 51 years old, Rick came to me a good 50 pounds
overweight, hypertensive, eating horribly, feeling terrible, and ready to do
something about it.
My first step was to overhaul his diet. He's now following a Zone-like diet, eating approximately 40% protein, and 30% each carbs and fats. The emphasis is on lean proteins, fruits and vegetables, a small amount of starch with breakfast and/or lunch, and non-saturated fats. One meal a week is a cheat meal during which he may eat anything he wants. It's interesting to note that at first, he took full advantage of his cheat meal and gorged himself. Now (in large part due to his EXCELLENT progress, which I'll detail shortly) he hardly ever has the desire to pig out and does so in moderation.
His workout is very simple; 3 sets each of the following exercises: Leg Press, Bench Press, Reverse-Grip Lat Pulldowns, Overhead Press Machine, Incline Dumbell Curls, and Ab Machine. 10-12 reps on upper body movements and 20 reps on leg press and abs. I started him with VERY light weights to better enable him to learn the movements, gain confidence, and minimize soreness. When I say light, I mean bench presses with the empty bar, leg presses with the empty carriage, incline curls with 10-pounders, etc. Every workout we add a small amount of weight to the bar or machine. I emphasize performing every rep of every exercise with focus, concentrating on a slow (3-second) negative and a forceful but controlled positive, feeling the targeted muscles expand and contract under the weight. I'll soon be dropping his sets to 2 each, as his intensity per set is just about sufficient enough to warrant less volume.
He trains just twice weekly -- Sunday and Thursday. We proceed at a moderate,
comfortable pace taking 3-5 minutes between sets; each workout lasts about an
hour and a half. He follows each weight-training session with cardio using
either the treadmill or Stairmaster. He started with 10 minutes of cardio and
now does 30 minutes. He also tries to take a half-hour walk at a brisk pace
at least 3 times a week.
It's been exactly two months since Rick began training. He's now 24 pounds
lighter according to the scale -- but since he has added a good 5-7 pounds of
muscle, his total fat loss is about 30 pounds. His blood pressure is way
down. His spirits and confidence are way up. Five minutes on the Stairmaster
at the lowest setting initially left him out of breath, now he climbs for
15-20 minutes at a higher setting. As for his poundages -- he's gone from
benching the empty bar to 3 sets of 10 with 112 1/2 pounds, and leg pressing
the empty carriage to 3 sets of 20 with 200 pounds. His other exercises have
improved commensurately.
This is a guy who initially wanted me to train him at his house because he was embarrassed to be seen at the gym, and now walks through the gym door with a BIG smile on his face, anxious to engage in another result-producing session.
Anyway, that's my RX for the typical middle-aged, overweight, sedentary guy who wants to shape up. I set up essentially the same program for my 64-year- old father a year ago, and in about 5 months he transformed himself from a tired, pot-bellied 190 pounds to an energetic, lean n' mean 158 pounds.
Hope this helps,
FlexWriter
-------------------- 11 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:14:01 EST
From: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Power Cleans
"Please tell me how to properly and safely spot a lifter doing
cleans? Is this a lift that college coaches (football) inquire when
recruiting a new athlete? What benefit do cleans have over other similar
(safer) lifts?"
While some coaches might use the power clean as a test of an athletes strength
or "explosiveness" as they like to call it, this is neither a safe nor
meaningful test of anything save a persons ability to perform that particular
exercise. One's ability to perform the power clean has nothing to do with
their skill in performing other sports related movements. Absolutely nothing
at all.
What benefits do cleans have over other lifts? Absolutely none. Unless you wish to improve your ability to perform power cleans, for which you must practice the performance of that movement. Outside of that, there is no sane reason to perform power cleans, or any "explosive" movements for that matter. They're dangerous. They are a very inefficient for the purpose of stimulating strength increases. And contrary to the opinions of some, there is absolutely no transfer of motor skills from the power clean to any other activity.
Andrew M. Baye
www.superslow.com
-------------------- 12 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:37:29 -0800
From: "James Krieger" <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Definition of theory
> From: "Michael Morgan" <michael_morgan@hotmail.com>
>
> If a theory doesn't represent scientific fact, then all science is out
> the window.
A theory is "accepted" as scientific fact as long as all evidence can hold
it up; however, a theory cannot be proven to be a fact. However, a theory
can be proven to be false through only one example which will refute it.
If this happens, then the theory needs to be modified to include the new
example or completely thrown out for a new theory.
James Krieger
-------------------- 13 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:58:51 -0800
From: "James Krieger" <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: My previous experience with HIT
> From: Andrzej Rosa <rosa@wsrp.siedlce.pl>
>
> >I went through a similar situation with HIT as Sandeep did; I made
> >great gains off of HIT for a long time but then hit a point where HIT
> >was no longer a solution to my problems. In no way was I somehow
> >misapplying HIT principles; I was a hardcore HITer that fully
> >understood the principles and lived by them.
>
> I am really curious what was exacly Your workouts that times.
My old training journals are back in Burlington while I am here in Pullman
in the other corner of the state. However, I have a good memory of the
protocols that I used back then.
The HIT protocol that I had tremendous success with was a 3 day per week
split program, with all bodyparts trained once per week. 1-2 exercises
were done per muscle group, with 2 sets to failure per exercise. This
represents 2-4 sets per muscle group per week. I made tremendous gains off
of this protocol for many, many months.
I reached a point where my progress had come to a halt. Following classic HD principles, I believed that I was now overtrained. Therefore, I took 2 weeks off, and then began on a similar protocol with my training volume cut in half; I was now doing only 1 set per exercise, so only 1-2 sets per muscle group per week. However, after the 2 week layoff, I noticed I was weaker (significantly in many exercises, with approximately a 20 lb drop in some). I continued on my protocol, and while I made some gains, I hit a rut very quickly (within only about 4 weeks) and I was unable to get back to the point that I was at before my layoff. I then switched back to the previous protocol, and was able to get back to my previous strength levels.
My point here? I was weaker after a short layoff. The reduced training volume did not allow me to get back to where I was. When I increased my training volume, my progress got better again. This completely contradicts the HD premise that a plateau is caused by overtraining, and that volume and frequency should be constantly reduced to ensure continued progress.
I dabbled with some other training protocols for another year, and then
returned to the exact same HIT protocol. I then set new personal bests in
most of my lifts, actually on even a slightly higher training volume (I was
training calves and abs twice a week on the days between my major
bodyparts). This was using almost exactly the same protocol that I had
reached a plateau in after months of training with it. So much for the
idea that plateaus are caused by overtraining.
My explanation for what occurred? I was not overtrained when I took the 2
week layoff. My body had adapted to the stimulus that I was providing. No
change in training frequency would have helped the problem. This also
explains why I was weaker after the 2 week layoff. If I had been
overtrained, I would have been stronger. When I moved on to other training
protocols and then back to the HIT protocol a year later, I suddenly began
to make gains with it again. The stimulus was new to my body again and
therefore my body responded. This was when I began to advocate the need
for variations in the training stimulus, not just the frequency of the
application of the stimulus. This was when I began to support
periodization.
James Krieger
-------------------- 14 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:07:38 -0800
From: "James Krieger" <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Licensing Trainers
> From: DrewBaye <DrewBaye@aol.com>
>
> While it certainly is important to have standards of competence and
knowledge
> in any industry, and a means of distinguishing those who do, from those
who
> don't, this would be a complete disaster for the fitness industry. The
> majority of people and organizations in this industry, including the
exercise
> physiology community have absolutely no idea what exercise is,
Please enlighten me on what you feel exercise is.
> much less
> possess any real standards where exercise instruction or safety are
concerned.
> If what currently passes for standards in any of the larger fitness
> organizations or the field of exercise physiology were imposed on us,
then the
> situation would most likely get worse, much worse, not better.
Please explain to me how this would make things "much" worse. Do you feel
that situations like the one I described (putting someone with anorexia on
a 1000 cal/day diet) should just be ignored? Standards would not eliminate
such problems, but they would reduce them.
> If the government would stay the hell out of economics all together,
things
> would be a hell of a lot better all around. For more on this, I suggest
> reading Capitolism: The Unknown Ideal, by Ayn Rand, or The Ominous
Parallels,
> by Leonard Piekoff.
What does economics and capitalism have to do with strength training?
James Krieger
-------------------- 15 --------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:11:04 -0800
From: "James Krieger" <jkrieger@eecs.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: 4 situations
> From: Peter Zappola <zappolpc@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu>
>
> Please enlighten me.
>
Already did in my post to Andrew Baye in digest #88.
James Krieger