From: Dave <suprdave@lightspeed.net>

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:27:38

To: WalterMartin@mail.serve.com

Subject: WM: Trials and tribulations 2

Castillo, Jaime W. wrote:

> Dave,

> Is this a typo error, or are you actually saying that "God does NOT use sickness to teach us something"? I almost have agreed with you, but then I see contradicting messages in your posts. What about Hebrews 12:6-7, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth?" Part of chastening of the faithful can be illness, and even death (1 Corinthians 11:28-30).

Dave:

No. I'm sorry, but the verses you quote do not say that God uses "sickness" teach us something. Would you put sickness on your child to teach them something? I think not. God is not that way either. God does chasten those He loves...but does not put cancer on them to teach them something. I've never heard such a teaching in the Word! God takes sickness away from us...not put it on us -

Exod 23:25

25 "So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

Exod 15:26

26 and said, "If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you."

He's Jehovah Rapha...the Lord that heals us. To do opposite would be contrary to His nature. Yes, He permits sickness to come upon us because we are still human. But we can fight off sickness with faith in His Word and prayer.

Jaime continues:

Dave's argument is almost like the LDS defense of "answered prayers"; LDS would use James 1:6 and other verses to prove their point that God answers prayers as He PROMISED. At first glance, Dave's point, like LDS, is convincing--almost. The problem is this---for both LDS and Dave: they view that what they ask in prayer (LDS), or perceive as the promise of God (Dave), is what God answers (prayer) or fulfill (promise). Truly it is the promise of God to physically heal people, and He does that everyday. But He has never promised to physically heal EVERYone who asks. One clear example is Paul and his thorn. God showed us this truth in 2 Corinthians 12, to

have us understand that He sometimes chooses NOT to physically heal His chosen ones, for their own good. In Paul's case, it was to keep him humble. Is it safe to assume that other Christians in the NT died with illness? Yes. Even WOF teachers apparently admit that not all get healed (as Dave agrees to), even in their own ranks, and some rightly arrive at the humble conclusion that it depends on God's own wisdom.

Dave:

Jaime, I am only saying that we can "stand on God's promises" found in the Bible. If we can't trust them, then what can we trust in? Read IJohn 5:14-15. We are to have "confidence" in what He has said in His Word. And please stop comparing me to LDS thinking. I don't appreciate that.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was not sickness. You may accept that...but that is not true. It was a messenger of satan that came to harrass Paul. Does not God's Word promise healing? Mark 16:18; II Peter 2:24? What about Matthew 8:16-17? So if God does not heal everyone, does this mean He shows favoritism? Please explain...but be brief. Thanks!

Jaime:

Dave:

Jaime, read II Cor.1:20, Hebrews 8:6 and I Kings 8:56. Ask God. He made those promises, not me. I would appreciate it if you would not continue to ask me to explain when I cite passages that clearly show His promise. I didn't write the Bible.

Jaime:

And God will give us the greatest promise of being like Jesus ----and sorry WOF but this is truth---sometimes BY KEEPING US POOR, ILL, or PERSECUTED. Jesus Himself

walked in suffering and poverty, and showed us how our heart should be like His heart, in our times of trouble, WHICH MAY PERSIST EVEN TO THE POINT OF DEATH, like His was.

Dave:

Nope. Poverty is not of God.

2 Cor 8:9

9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

2 Cor 9:8 (Be sure to read the entire context)

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.

God does not want us to be poor. How can we give to the poor if we are poor? He wants us blessed financially so we can help our brothers and sisters who may be struggling financially, help the poor, hungry, etc. No, I'm not saying we will all be millionaires. But I fail to see you substantiate your claims with Bible. See Deut.8:18; Psalm 112:2-3.

Jaime, I'm not interested in me trying to prove anything or explain away anything. I want all of God's blessings here on earth...and of course, I'll be ultimately blessed in Heaven. What about Jeremiah 29:11? We can have Abundant Life here on earth too.

Yes, I see and hear of Christians in 3rd World countries who are being persecuted for the gospel's sake. And Jesus said that would happen. We had a dear WOF minister get killed a couple of years ago by communists. But please don't confuse persecution for the gospel sake and sickness as being the same thing. Nonsense!