From: gerald <gerald@evestamail.com>

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:20:45

To: WalterMartin@mail.serve.com

Subject: WM: RE: WOF/JOB

>Dave:

I'm talking about Hebrews 11:13. I inserted this verse at the end of my comment on Job, but maybe you didn't see it.

Gerald

I did see it, and Hebrews 11:13 states my case about faith. As it says, these WERE men of faith, but did not see all God had promised them on this earth. This is the same regarding our health, healing and wealth. It is not guaranteed as some of the WOF teachers say. God is still sovereign, but I do not mean God can't heal and bless us in this life.

>Dave:

In Job 1 & 2, we see satan asking permission from God to do such horrible things to Job. God "permitted" it. God did not cause this. However, He did allow satan to do that. So do we have a contradiction here or was both satan and God doing this to Job? If this is the case, I don't know if I'd want God and the devil both tormenting me. A person is really in trouble if that is the case. But no, the answer is that Job's sorest complaint, and indeed the sorrowful accent of all his complaints, on which he laid the greatest emphasis, was that God appeared against him. But now God plainly appeared for him, and watched over him to build and to plant, like as he had (at least in his apprehension) watched over him to pluck up and to throw down, . This put a new face upon his affairs immediately, and every thing now looked as pleasing and promising as before it had looked gloomy and frightful.

Gerald

I agree that God allowed or permitted this to come upon Job, and He was not the one who initiated the actual affliction on Job. I don't see a contradiction at all. As an example, if someone came to you and wanted to afflict someone and you said, well how about Gerald. He lives at this address and this is what he looks like, etc. You would definitely be considered an accessory or accomplice to whatever took place. You are still part of what happened. The same if you knew something bad was going to take place and did nothing to stop it (ex. if you knew someone was going to blow up the World Trade Center, but did nothing to stop the act). You are still involved as part of the affliction. You can try to semantically justify non-involvement, but their is still involvement. Just because I say God was involved or even caused something, does not mean He is not watching over what is happening to work it out for good as he did in Job's case. This is what happened in Job's case.

You still have not answered the question about the verse in Job 42:11, "...all the adversity that the Lord HAD BROUGHT UPON him." "Brought Upon" and "allow" or "permit" do not mean the same thing. I think you are doing as Kenneth Copeland does in trying to make Job fit into your doctrine and conception of God. We as finite man cannot claim to understand the infinite of God.

Dave wrote:

Now regarding Fred Price and medicine, yes, he did take it...but that does not mean a person lacks faith. Sometimes, that just seems like the right thing to do, especially when one wants immediate relief of pain. You need to write him and ask him about that. Let him answer for himself.

Gerald

I think you are missing my point. I definitely believe that if you take medicine it does not mean you lack faith. This WAS my whole point. Fred Price in the quote I cited said that if a person's faith is at a certain level, then they don't need to take medicine. This implies that there is a certain level of faith (how do you verify this?) that a person can reach where taking medicine is not necessary. I personally don't believe this and cannot find it in the Bible. He said this quote referring to himself not having to take medicine. If he is now taking medicine, and still believes as he stated in the earlier quote I cited, then his faith has decreased because now as you say, he is taking medicine. If he has renounced his earlier quote, then I do not have a problem. I know you cannot speak for him, and I will write and ask him about it directly.