From: gerald <gerald@evestamail

From: gerald <gerald@evestamail.com>

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:36:15

To: WalterMartin@mail.serve.com

CC:

Subject: WM: RE: Infirmities

>Gerald writes:

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities (Strong #769)". (1 Tim 5:23)

Should we then not drink water, but use wine as an aid for our lack of strength and weakness???

Dave:

Of course not. You know as well as I know the background of that verse. The water in that part of the country at the time was contaminated. Wine was used as a form of remedy.

Gerald

I accept your comment, but I was not trying to focus on water as the point of discussion. I can see that my comment may have not been clear. The comment I was making had to do with the meaning of the word "infirmities" as used in these verses. I think my earlier point still stands in that the interpretation of "infirmities" as a want of strength in regards to Paul's thorn in the flesh, can also be used in these two verses as well if one is consistent. By focusing your comment on the water, you did not address the intent of my earlier comment.

>Gerald:

>>As far as Mark 16:18, I have to admit that it does say they will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. But can you say that in your experience that has always happened? People have always recovered? If you are honest the answer is no. Again, this does not mean that we should not still have faith in God to heal us and pray for our healing.

Dave:

Not all the time. Not even Jesus was able to heal everyone.

Gerald

I definitely agree!! Maybe I misunderstood your earlier comment, but I thought you were referring to this verse to try to say that if we lay hands on the sick they shall (meaning always) recover (be it immediate or a process). It did say in his home town some healings were done, but not many. As shown in Mark 1:35-39, Simon and others were searching for Jesus because men were seeking Him for healing (as shown from the previous verses), but He did not go to them, but went to another town to preach the Gospel.

Dave wrote:

>Matt 13:58

Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Also, notice that Mark says 16:18 says "...they shall recover." Recovery is a process, do you agree? Not everyone that Jesus prayed for was instantly healed.

Gerald

Again, you did not fully address my comment. I agree with you that unbelief can cause someone to not be healed. As I said in an earlier post, in the examples of Jesus and the Disciples, people were healed and the dead raised where faith is not mentioned or the person could not cultivate faith. Some verses said Jesus had compassion on those who were sick and healed them. I agree with you that using the word recovery describes a process, that does not address my earlier comment that all who had or have hands layed on them are healed. All are not healed. Some have died. Are saying all who died even though they had hands laid on them also had unbelief?

Dave wrote:

>Mark 8:23-25

So He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the town. And when He had spit on his eyes and put His hands on him, He asked him if he saw anything.

>

And he looked up and said, "I see men like trees, walking." Then He put His hands on his eyes again and made him look up. And he was restored and saw everyone clearly.

Gerald

I can see that this example showed Jesus putting His hands on the man's eyes twice. I can accept that this was done and maybe even stretch and say it was a process, but it was still immediate. The man did not have to wait hours, days, weeks or years for healing. When healings were done, the majority of the verses show that the healings done by Jesus and the Disciples were immediate. Do you agree?

I am not sure where this is going. My whole point is that healings done by Jesus and the Disciples were immediate, sometimes faith is mentioned as a reason, sometimes it is not. I believe that Jesus can and does heal today, but it is not guaranteed. God heals, but may choose not to. It is based on His will and sovereignty. I am not sure you think that healing is guaranteed while we are living or not. If you do believe it is guaranteed then show verses that state this is so. I have shown a quote by Gloria Copeland that says God always provides when it comes to healing, and if not received the sick person has done something to preclude the healing. If we clear up all areas that may be inhibiting healing it WILL come. I cannot say Fred Price believes this, and am strictly talking about what the Copeland's believe.

Dave wrote:

>Again, Paul's thorn in the flesh was not sickness. You say it was. Would you please support this view with a scriptural reference. Thank you kindly.

Gerald

Again, this was not the main point of my comment. Be it a physical sickness or want of strength, God did not "heal" Paul or answer his prayer to take the thorn in his flesh away. Do you agree?