Subject: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> Date: 1998/02/12 Message-ID: <34E33887.1007@genetics.utah.edu> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc Last night on my local news, it was reported that a local Utah company, Caldera (of OpenLinux) is suing M$ to prevent automatic preloads of Win95 on PCs. They complain that the preload bundling makes purchasers believe that they can only run Win95 on their PC. Caldera is seeking to make it a CHOICE at purchase what OS goes on the computer. I have been planning on picking up Linux for a while (as a backup to OS/2 if/when it fails to garner enough software support and upgrades to fill my needs) and this pushed me to do it... I bought Caldera's base OpenLinux from Computer City for $50. Support Caldera! Encourage Red Hat (and even IBM and Be, Inc) to join the suit. It is time to provide purchasers with an OPEN and obvious choice of operating system when they buy a new computer. patrick Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: "Michael S. Cooper" <mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> Date: 1998/02/12 Message-ID: <6bvsom$93k$1@excalibur.flash.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc Patrick O'Neil wrote in message < 34E33887.1007@genetics.utah.edu>... >Last night on my local news, it was reported that a local Utah company, >Caldera (of OpenLinux) is suing M$ to prevent automatic preloads of Win95 on >PCs. They complain that the preload bundling makes purchasers believe that they >can only run Win95 on their PC. Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the software on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head and saying "Load Windows95 or else!". Educated consumers can ask for a PC with no OS installed. Caldera's grasping at straws trying to increase its sales. Maybe they should try some advertising to the general public if they're that concerned that the public doesn't know they exist. FURRFU! Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: jbrush@aros.net (John Brush) Date: 1998/02/12 Message-ID: <34e3858a$1$woehfu$mr2ice@news.aros.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc In <6bvsom$93k$1@excalibur.flash.net>, on 02/12/98 at 04:23 PM, "Michael S. Cooper" < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> said: **Patrick O'Neil wrote in message < 34E33887.1007@genetics.utah.edu>... **>Last night on my local news, it was reported that a local Utah company, **>Caldera (of OpenLinux) is suing M$ to prevent automatic preloads of Win95 on **>PCs. They complain that the preload bundling makes purchasers believe that they **>can only run Win95 on their PC. **Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the **software on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to **anyones head and saying "Load Windows95 or else!". Educated **consumers can ask for a PC with no OS installed. Caldera's grasping **at straws trying to increase its sales. Maybe they should try some **advertising to the general public if they're that concerned that the **public doesn't know they exist. FURRFU! Wrong again. In order to obtain pricing and availability, as well as support and other products, such as those usually found in a bundle, Microsoft IS holding a gun to the vendors heads and it says that "if you sell a PC with anything but M$ on it, you will lose all the goodies, support, and basically free software that we give you" Yes, vendors can tell M$ to stick it, but that is not in their best financial interest. Do not go around telling people that they can pick an choose their OS, when purchasing from most of the mainstream PC vendors. That is a falsehood. If you don't think that M$ strong-arms vendors, ask some of them if they will change their practice of bundling IE, even tho the government made M$ cease and desist. Nope, they won't because if they do, they will be subject to the rath of Bill Gates, and that is a very real thing. Been there, seen that, and would rather deal with the Teamsters Union. A few vendors have stated that they would let customers choose Netscape, but there would be a charge to install it, whereas IE would be free. Now if both browsers are free, why would a vendor charge for NS, but not IE? Because M$ owns their butts and they will not do anything to piss Bill off in case he actually wins, because he would come down on them. Yea, everyone will say I am up in the night on this, but I have seen it first hand, and just because you haven't, doesn't make it true. The bad news about Caldera, is that the Judge in the case moved the trial date out to April of 1999!!! because M$ said they needed that much time to prepare a defense. And you still don't think M$ is out of control??? OS/2 will go away to its niche, BeOS will never get off the ground, and Microsoft will continue to penetrate every inch of yours and my life, until finally, we will be living in Microsoft homes and driving Microsoft cars. Get used to it. Bill will win, because bad nearly always triumphs over decent in todays morally bankrupt world. John Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: "Philip R. Columbus" <columbus@visi.net> Date: 1998/02/23 Message-ID: <34F1BAD7.4804003@visi.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc John Brush wrote: > <<Much excellent exposition clipped>> > > OS/2 will go away to its niche, BeOS will never get off the ground, > and Microsoft will continue to penetrate every inch of yours and my > life, until finally, we will be living in Microsoft homes and driving > Microsoft cars. Get used to it. Bill will win, because bad nearly > always triumphs over decent in todays morally bankrupt world. > > John I think the "take over the world" fear was first expressed about IBM early in the computer era. I just think that we should all remember that the future will not be a linear extrapolation of the recent past....especially in the computer business. I wonder how many people *really* predicted *how* the desktop PC would take off. Not too many, I'd guess. Most suppositions of the future of computing...especially desktop/home computing were dead wrong. I don't know the answer...but my prediction is that no one will be accurate. Then, again...I could be wrong. Phil Columbus Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: Greg F Walz Chojnacki <gwc@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> Date: 1998/02/12 Message-ID: <6bvtck$1dn$1@uwm.edu> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc Michael S. Cooper < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> wrote: : Patrick O'Neil wrote in message < 34E33887.1007@genetics.utah.edu>... :>Last night on my local news, it was reported that a local Utah company, :>Caldera (of OpenLinux) is suing M$ to prevent automatic preloads of Win95 on :>PCs. They complain that the preload bundling makes purchasers believe that they :>can only run Win95 on their PC. : Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the software : on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head and : saying "Load Windows95 or else!". They have a history of forcing companies to pay for licences for each computer sold, whether or not it has Windows installed. not a gun, exactly, but pretty effective at wiping out competition. :Educated consumers can ask for a PC with no OS installed. An uneducated consumers are screwed thereby. MS has created disincentives for vendors to offer arguably superior alternatives to MS offerings. I don't really see how Caldera's can do anything but improve consumers' lot by giving them more choices. I'm with Patrick on this one. Greg -- Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: "Michael S. Cooper" <mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> Date: 1998/02/12 Message-ID: <6c00hf$kgh$1@excalibur.flash.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc >: Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the >software on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head >and saying "Load Windows95 or else!". >They have a history of forcing companies to pay for licences for each >computer sold, whether or not it has Windows installed. not a gun, exactly, >but pretty effective at wiping out competition. That doesn't prevent the consumer from requesting another OS, or none at all. Whether a PC manufacturer does or doesn't load the software, the consumer still has the final say. The manufacturer can pass along the "license fee" in the cost of the computer, but an educated consumer would know enough not to pay it and make the manufacturer eat it. That's the manufacturer's cost of doing business. >:Educated consumers can ask for a PC with no OS installed. >An uneducated consumers are screwed thereby. MS has created disincentives >for vendors to offer arguably superior alternatives to MS offerings. Disincentives? Like what? If you want the "uneducated" to have a choice, then shouldn't you educate them? Just giving them a choice doesn't mean they automatically know which to choose. So do you want Caldera to sell RedHat to uneducated consumers or are you just arguing that you don't like M$? It is perfectly legal for Caldera, IBM, et al to go to PC manufacturers and say "We'd like you to make our OS available to anyone who buys a PC." They don't seem to be doing that. This will probably be my last post on the subject (keep the hoorays to a minimum, please) because I've been through this before and, while I'm not supporting M$, it inevitably degenerates to a "M$ BAD - OTHER OS BETTER!" argument. The original article was obviously posted to incite M$ bashing and how to bring them down, rather than discussing how to bring everybody else *up* - which is what I'm advocating. >I don't really see how Caldera's can do anything but improve consumers' >lot by giving them more choices. You snipped my comment about Caldera and others doing more advertising to the general public, i.e. becoming more visible to the public eye and touting their own superiority rather than acting like a shrinking violet. Do you not agree that they should do that? Educate the consumers, people! They'll make up their own minds! Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: "Mark Boler" <mbolerxyz@flash.net> Date: 1998/02/12 Message-ID: <6c078k$af5$1@excalibur.flash.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] Michael S. Cooper wrote in message <6c00hf$kgh$1@excalibur.flash.net>... >That doesn't prevent the consumer from requesting another OS, or none at >all. Whether a PC manufacturer does or doesn't load the software, the >consumer still has the final say. The manufacturer can pass along the >"license fee" in the cost of the computer, but an educated consumer would >know enough not to pay it and make the manufacturer eat it. That's the >manufacturer's cost of doing business. That means if you want OS/2, you pay for Windows (with the cost of the new machine) AND OS/2, when you buy OS/2. It's not the cost of doing business. It's paying for something that you don't want. The companies will only pass the cost on to YOU! You can pretend that you didn't pay for it, and that the company you bought it from "ate" it, but if they are still in business, then YOU paid for it. If they didn't have to pay Mickeysoft in the first place, they could pass the savings on to you. That's what I hope the lawsuit gets. And I also hope it makes Microsoft pay back past license fees. Mark Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: bstephan@redshift.com Date: 1998/02/12 Message-ID: <34e3b5dd$1$ofgrcuna$mr2ice@news.redshift.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] In <6c00hf$kgh$1@excalibur.flash.net>, on 02/12/98 at 05:27 PM, "Michael S. Cooper" < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> said: >Whether a PC manufacturer does or doesn't load the software, the >consumer still has the final say. I think this guy must be living in a dream world. ----------------------------------------------------------- Bob Stephan Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: pannette@worldnet.att.net (Patrick Annette) Date: 1998/02/14 Message-ID: <6c4lsj$8e2@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:53:22, bstephan@redshift.com wrote: > In <6c00hf$kgh$1@excalibur.flash.net>, on 02/12/98 > at 05:27 PM, "Michael S. Cooper" < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> said: > >Whether a PC manufacturer does or doesn't load the software, the > >consumer still has the final say. > I think this guy must be living in a dream world. Naah, look at his headers. He's a lemming, defending Microsoft with his fantasies. Patrick --------- Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: jknott@ibm.net (James Knott) Date: 1998/02/13 Message-ID: <6oM50odSR0vY089yn@ibm.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc In article <6c00hf$kgh$1@excalibur.flash.net>, "Michael S. Cooper" < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> wrote: >That doesn't prevent the consumer from requesting another OS, or none at >all. Whether a PC manufacturer does or doesn't load the software, the >consumer still has the final say. The manufacturer can pass along the >"license fee" in the cost of the computer, but an educated consumer would >know enough not to pay it and make the manufacturer eat it. That's the >manufacturer's cost of doing business. Try buying a consumer level system without Windows from any major retailer. It's take it or leave it with Windows the only choice available. The only place where you're likely to find a computer without Windows, is the small integrator, who'll build a computer to your specs. -- E-mail jknott@ca.ibm.com _________________________________________________________________________ The above opinions are my own and not those of ISM Corp., a subsidiary of IBM Canada Ltd. Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: Bob Germer <bgermer@gbsias.com> Date: 1998/02/13 Message-ID: <34e44431$1$otrezre$mr2ice@news.gbsias.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc On <6bvtck$1dn$1@uwm.edu>, on 02/12/98 at 10:33 PM, Greg F Walz Chojnacki < gwc@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> said: > : Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the software > : on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head and > : saying "Load Windows95 or else!". > They have a history of forcing companies to pay for licences for each > computer sold, whether or not it has Windows installed. not a gun, > exactly, but pretty effective at wiping out competition. > :Educated consumers can ask for a PC with no OS installed. Wake up and smell the coffee, friend. You try buying a laptop from IBM without either Windows 95 or NT installed. It can't be done unless you call IBM headquarters in Armonk, raise hell with someone from Gerstner's office, and then be willing to purchase a laptop with no harddisk and a separate, unformatted harddisk at a cost about $745 more than the same machine with harddisk and 95 installed. You call Gateway and try to buy a machine without an OS or with OS/2 or Linux. It can't be done. You call Indelible Blue and try to buy an IBM notebook with OS/2. You get it all right, but you also get Win95 and you pay $250 for the copy of Warp. Until MS signed a consent decree last summer, it gave OEM's the choice of paying a per-processor license agreement or buying individual copies of Win 3.1 or Win 95. Unless the OEM agreed to install the MS product ONLY on every machine he sold, he paid three times as much as if he did. Even now, many OEM's still believe that they cannot sell a machine with no OS or with a non-MS one. The Attornies General of 24 states have issued supoenas to OEM's seeking information, among other things, on why this is still the case. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bgermer@gbsias.com Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 5 MR/2 Ice Registration Number 67 The world would be better if Bill Gates skied like Sonny Bono. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: Bob Germer <bgermer@gbsias.com> Date: 1998/02/13 Message-ID: <34e44914$2$otrezre$mr2ice@news.gbsias.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc On <6bvsom$93k$1@excalibur.flash.net>, on 02/12/98 at 04:23 PM, "Michael S. Cooper" < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> said: > Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the > software on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to > anyones head and saying "Load Windows95 or else!". Educated consumers > can ask for a PC with no OS installed. Caldera's grasping at straws > trying to increase its sales. Maybe they should try some advertising to > the general public if they're that concerned that the public doesn't > know they exist. FURRFU! You are a true lemming spouting the Gates' line. Stop lying. I have spent many hours in the past 3 weeks seeking prices for a purchase of an initial order of 25 of an eventual 1,200 machine purchase of Pentium Notebooks. The client specifications are that the machine must have a pointer stick ala Toshiba and IBM notebooks and be loaded with Warp 4 and Warp 4 only. Despite literally hours on the phone with Toshiba America's headquarters in California, they would not sell the machines without Windows 95. At one point, I was told by an officer of Toshiba America that the cost of 95 was only $35 per machine and I shouldn't bitch about it. When I asked for their coporate lawyer, they decided to make a "special exception" and provide one of their vendors, Technology Direct with the machines devoid of the MS operating system and reduce the price by $35 per machine. Our leasing company placed the order, received an acknowledgement, sent the client the paperwork, and then was notified by Technology Direct that the machines were out of stock and none were available. They would substitute the replacement machine for an additional price of $330. I had already had quotes on the "replacement" machine from Technology Direct. The price difference with Win 95 was $295. The only difference other than price is that the replacement machine has a CDRom for which there are no OS/2 drivers. Even with the first machine, I had to get OS/2 drivers and loading instructions from Toshiba Canada! This matter has been referred to both the Attorney General of New Jersey as well as the client's legal department. I also had the same problem trying to purchase IBM ThinkPads without Win95 or NT. I was told by PSP on the telephone that the OS was loaded onto the hard disks during manufacture of the disks. The only way was to purchase the notebooks with no hard disks, purchase the hard disks, purchase the copies of Warp, and do the installation ourselves. The cost of doing this was nearly $900 per machine higher than the cost of the machines with 95 and site licenses for Warp. Between New Year's and the current date, I have tried to order more than 30 name brand PC's, desktop units. Other than IBM or HP for a couple of servers, I have not been able to purchase same without an MS operating system. I have talked directly to the headquarters of Toshiba, Compaq, Sony, PSP, Sharp, Gateway, and Dell. Not one would sell a machine without an MS operating system. You cannot even buy an Aptiva without Windows 95. Only HP would sell a machine without 95 or NT and then only with its own software installed. Compaq and Sony both stated that if I loaded OS/2 on the machine they would no longer provide any technical support since they only supported 95 and NT on their machines. I believe that when MS was forced to agree to drop the per-processor agreements that they forced, bribed, whatever the OEM's into the current scheme by refusing to provide patches, support, etc. to the OEM's if they offered other or no OS's on their products. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bgermer@gbsias.com Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 5 MR/2 Ice Registration Number 67 The world would be better if Bill Gates skied like Sonny Bono. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: djloon@connectnet.com Date: 1998/02/17 Message-ID: <eDaG.37$X2.2877423@news.connectnet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] In <6c1r0t$4oi$1@excalibur.flash.net>, "Michael S. Cooper" < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> writes: >Goodness me... personal insults hurled in my direction. What personal insults ? "Wake up and smell the coffee" ? My, we are thin-skinned. >Doesn't help your cause at all. The only thing that will help our cause is legal action, as being pursued now by both the US Department of Justice & dozens of states. As per your original posting, see below: In <6bvsom$93k$1@excalibur.flash.net>, "Michael S. Cooper" < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> writes: >Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head and >saying "Load Windows95 or else!". Pretty much, if you get a price of $20/copy if you agree to purchase enough Win95 licenses to preload on every computer you sell, and $80/copy if you purchase less. While the contracts are no longer supposed to enforce an exclusionary 'per CPU' license, the net effect is the same. And your local retailer simply WILL NOT be bothered. >Educated consumers can ask for a PC with no OS installed. Yeah, they can ask, but they probably can't get it, or avoid paying for it even if they don't. The typical response of those few vendors who will listen is to take off Win95, but NOT reduce the price. When buying systems over the past years, I've gotten back a lot of quotes including Win95/NT even though OS/2 or 'no operating system' is specified in the specs I've faxed out --- and only about 40% of vendors even responded when "No Windows 95" was specified in the request for quotes. Non-Win95 systems are considered "custom", and a substantially higher price often results from otherwise the same or even a less expensive hardware configuration than Win95 packages. This includes IBM --- Pentium Pro 200's with Warp were advertised by IBM, but I was only offered NT preloaded. OS/2 preloaded or no OS configurations were never "available". I've recently been shopping around for notebooks. Of about 10 manufacturers I've contacted, none would preload OS/2, all but two stated that OS/2 was not supported and "probably wouldn't run" (as far as I can tell, untrue), and I've seen rumors on the newsgroups that Toshiba considers installing another operating system to void the warranty (despite the fact that drivers for OS/2 and Linux are available for the hardware in most notebooks). I don't think some kind of consumer regulation which would require vendors to offer hardware without preloaded software at a fair reduction in price representing the vendors cost of the software bundle would break the back of Microsoft or PC vendors. Dave Looney Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: "Frank Sexton" <fsexton@concentric.net> Date: 1998/02/14 Message-ID: <rsiayktgeuasbk.pminews@news.concentric.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc :>> Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the :>> software on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to :>> anyones head and saying "Load Windows95 or else!". :>Despite literally hours on the phone with Toshiba America's headquarters :>in California, they would not sell the machines without Windows 95. I believe an important reason that this silliness persists is because it is also beneficial to the vendors if they only have to support ONE operating system (it's CHEAPER). MS disavows any responsibility for support and heaps it on the vendor. By only supporting one operating system the vendor doesn't have to learn any others and they don't have to make sure their stuff works with anything else. The vendors are as much to blame as Microsoft in this, I believe. It's all about money, of course. Nothing else. -Frank Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: Helen Terbizan <helent@sentience.com.au> Date: 1998/02/15 Message-ID: <34E60691.6D97@sentience.com.au> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] Frank Sexton wrote: > :>> Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the > :>> software on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to > :>> anyones head and saying "Load Windows95 or else!". > :>Despite literally hours on the phone with Toshiba America's headquarters > :>in California, they would not sell the machines without Windows 95. > I believe an important reason that this silliness persists is because > it is also beneficial to the vendors if they only have to support ONE > operating system (it's CHEAPER). MS disavows any responsibility for > support and heaps it on the vendor. By only supporting one operating > system the vendor doesn't have to learn any others and they don't have > to make sure their stuff works with anything else. The vendors are as > much to blame as Microsoft in this, I believe. It's all about money, > of course. Nothing else. > -Frank Hi It may seem that way, in reality it's not the case. I know of alot of firms that preload Win95 wish that they had a viable alternative. The reason being the high cost to them re call outs because Win95 has screwed up. I suppose they can start charging for this service...but from experience consumers expect free support, start charging and they start screaming like a wounded bull. My 0.02cents worth Cheers Helen http://www.sentience.com.au Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: Martin Nisshagen <Address@MySig.com> Date: 1998/02/14 Message-ID: <34eeb6b6.73041067@nyheter.chalmers.se> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc Bob Germer [KAPS, Inc. - CyberENET Network] wrote: >I also had the same problem trying to purchase IBM ThinkPads without Win95 >or NT. I was told by PSP on the telephone that the OS was loaded onto the >hard disks during manufacture of the disks. The only way was to purchase I think IBM still sells the 760 model with OS/2 Warp (I don't have the partnumber here, but I can get it if you want). Best regards, m a r t i n | n -- Martin Nisshagen ICQ UIN: 689662 __O verdi + MTS Technology, Sweden -\<, callas = martin-at-mts-se (MIME 1.0) PGP 5.0: 0x45D423AC (À)/(À) 100% pleasure Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: Martin Nisshagen <Address@MySig.com> Date: 1998/02/16 Message-ID: <34f8cc79.32404365@nyheter.chalmers.se> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc Bob Germer [KAPS, Inc. - CyberENET Network] wrote: [ followup-to set back to original newsgroup ] >> >I also had the same problem trying to purchase IBM ThinkPads without Win95 >> >or NT. I was told by PSP on the telephone that the OS was loaded onto the >> >hard disks during manufacture of the disks. The only way was to purchase >> I think IBM still sells the 760 model with OS/2 Warp (I don't have the >> partnumber here, but I can get it if you want). >I'd sure like to have it. 760L4SW Best regards, m a r t i n | n Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: "Frank Sexton" <fsexton@concentric.net> Date: 1998/02/14 Message-ID: <jpcqyrasediapu.pminews@news.concentric.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:23:34 -0600, Michael S. Cooper wrote: :>Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the software :>on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head and :>saying "Load Windows95 or else!". MS is saying "If you want to get Win95 at this good price you have to load EVERY machine with Win95". Or else... no special price. -Frank Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: pannette@worldnet.att.net (Patrick Annette) Date: 1998/02/14 Message-ID: <6c4lsd$8e2@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:23:34, "Michael S. Cooper" < mscooper@flash.REMOVE.net> wrote: > > Patrick O'Neil wrote in message < 34E33887.1007@genetics.utah.edu>... > >Last night on my local news, it was reported that a local Utah company, > >Caldera > >(of OpenLinux) is suing M$ to prevent automatic preloads of Win95 on > >PCs. They > >complain that the preload bundling makes purchasers believe that they > >can > >only run Win95 on their PC. > > > Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the software > on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head and > saying "Load Windows95 or else!". Educated consumers can ask for a PC with > no OS installed. Indeed they can ask! But they won't get a Compaq or Dell or HP or .... without an MS operating system. You have to go to a lot of trouble (for example, assembling your own, as I did) to get a computer with no operating system these days. > Caldera's grasping at straws trying to increase its sales. > Maybe they should try some advertising to the general public if they're that > concerned that the public doesn't know they exist. FURRFU! Yes they are grasping at straws. The damage has been done over the last few years, and it's too late now. Patrick --------- Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: "Brian Knotts" <bknotts@europa.com> Date: 1998/02/15 Message-ID: <lqaawmnmoifwsz.pminews@nuggent.europa.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:23:34 -0600, Michael S. Cooper wrote: > >Patrick O'Neil wrote in message < 34E33887.1007@genetics.utah.edu>... >>Last night on my local news, it was reported that a local Utah company, >>Caldera (of OpenLinux) is suing M$ to prevent automatic preloads of Win95 on >>PCs. They complain that the preload bundling makes purchasers believe that they >>can only run Win95 on their PC. >Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the software >on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head and >saying "Load Windows95 or else!". Educated consumers can ask for a PC with >no OS installed. Caldera's grasping at straws trying to increase its sales. >Maybe they should try some advertising to the general public if they're that >concerned that the public doesn't know they exist. FURRFU! It's a financial gun. If they don't load Windows on a certain (very high) percentage of their PCs, they must pay a much higher price for Windows 95. Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: dda@SpamBeGone.ziplink.net (David D'Antonio) Date: 1998/02/25 Message-ID: <nEt2Xqw17kdd-pn2-5bmSTKDn3Iwv@marlboro-ip-1-55.ziplink.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:49:36, "Brian Knotts" < bknotts@europa.com> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:23:34 -0600, Michael S. Cooper wrote: > >Patrick O'Neil wrote in message < 34E33887.1007@genetics.utah.edu>... > >>Last night on my local news, it was reported that a local Utah company, > >>Caldera (of OpenLinux) is suing M$ to prevent automatic preloads of Win95 on > >>PCs. They complain that the preload bundling makes purchasers believe that they > >>can only run Win95 on their PC. > >Umm.... isn't it the manufacturers of the PC's the ones who put the software > >on there? Last I heard, M$ wasn't exactly holding a gun to anyones head and > >saying "Load Windows95 or else!". Educated consumers can ask for a PC with > >no OS installed. Caldera's grasping at straws trying to increase its sales. > >Maybe they should try some advertising to the general public if they're that > >concerned that the public doesn't know they exist. FURRFU! This is actually often not true. I tried to buy a PC from Gateway 2000 (for example) and they absolutely would NOT ship a machine that would not boot. They said they could not test it! And even if I could convince them to sell me a machine without an OS installed, I would still HAVE to pay for a license to Windows for WorkGroups (the latest, at the time), since MS had a (now illegal) per-processor licensing deal, in which GW2K paid a fee for EVERY PC they shipped, regardless of what OS it ran. And they were forbidden to load anything but MS-DOS and WfWg 3.11. > It's a financial gun. If they don't load Windows on a certain (very high) > percentage of their PCs, they must pay a much higher price for Windows 95. If they are allowed to even load anything BUT Win95 (or WinNT). DDA -- David D'Antonio CNE - dantonio@SpamBeGone.ziplink.net Some they do and some they don't and some ya just can't tell Some they will and some they won't and some it's just as well -SuperTramp Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: csolid @ ibm.net (Buddy Donnelly) Date: 1998/02/14 Message-ID: <34e5a1a6.0@news1.ibm.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:59:36, under the sign of Ares, in Superior Court of Los Angeles County, Patrick O'Neil < poneil@genetics.utah.edu> testified: .> Last night on my local news, it was reported that a local Utah company, .> Caldera (of OpenLinux) is suing M$ to prevent automatic preloads of Win95 on .> PCs. They complain that the preload bundling makes purchasers believe that they .> can only run Win95 on their PC. You might possibly want to find another "local news" supplier. The basic story is almost two years old, and you can see a description of the suit (and a link to the beautifully-written complaint itself, in its original filing) at: http://www.caldera.com/news/npr/dosuit.html Caldera's suite has survived for two years, and has better than average chances, not just because of the strength of the claim but because it has a very deep pocket behind it, Ray Noorda, formerly CEO of Novell. Caldera purchased the "Novell DOS 7," formerly DR-DOS, turned around and renamed "OpenDOS" and released sourcecode to the public. This is *the* superior DOS, and the only one that rightfully can claim "version 7" status at the kernel level. They have renamed it once again, I see, to DR-OpenDOS, and have continued to develop the DOS product, to include betas of a graphical web browser, direct support for long file names, and a module to allow it to "coexist" with Win95. (No, I don't know if that means you can now boot their OpenDOS and then run Win95 with a WIN command, but I intend to find out as soon as I get the new code downloaded.) .> Caldera is seeking to make it a CHOICE at purchase what OS goes on the .> computer. .> I have been planning on picking up Linux for a while (as a backup to .> OS/2 if/when it fails to garner enough software support and upgrades to fill my .> needs) and this pushed me to do it... I bought Caldera's base OpenLinux from Computer .> City for $50. .> .> Support Caldera! Encourage Red Hat (and even IBM and Be, Inc) to join .> the suit. It is time to provide purchasers with an OPEN and obvious choice of .> operating system when they buy a new computer. .> patrick Good Luck, Buddy Buddy Donnelly csolid @ ibm.net Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: csolid @ ibm.net (Buddy Donnelly) Date: 1998/02/14 Message-ID: <34e61a10.0@news1.ibm.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:52:38, under the sign of Ares, in Superior Court of Los Angeles County, csolid @ ibm.net (Buddy Donnelly) testified: snipped, see previous posting for lead-in .> it to "coexist" with Win95. (No, I don't know if that means you can .> now boot their OpenDOS and then run Win95 with a WIN command, but I .> intend to find out as soon as I get the new code downloaded.) The answer, after all that, is "No," Win95 still won't allow itself to run as a shell under DR-OpenDOS v.7.02. And the OpenDOS install disables Boot Manager and System Commander too, and substitutes its own Loader that will let you select between booting to OpenDOS or booting to MS-DOS(Win95). You have to run FDISK or SC again to get them back on. Good Luck, Buddy Buddy Donnelly csolid @ ibm.net Subject: Re: Good News! Caldera sues M$! From: harry travis <htravis@ibm.net> Date: 1998/02/14 Message-ID: <34e66190$1$ugenivf$mr2ice@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc [Subscribe to comp.os.os2.misc] [More Headers] In < 34e61a10.0@news1.ibm.net>, on 02/14/98 at 10:26 PM, csolid @ ibm.net (Buddy Donnelly) said: >On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:52:38, under the sign of Ares, in Superior >Court of Los Angeles County, csolid @ ibm.net (Buddy Donnelly) >testified: >snipped, see previous posting for lead-in >.> it to "coexist" with Win95. (No, I don't know if that means you can >.> now boot their OpenDOS and then run Win95 with a WIN command, but I >.> intend to find out as soon as I get the new code downloaded.) >The answer, after all that, is "No," Win95 still won't allow itself to >run as a shell under DR-OpenDOS v.7.02. >And the OpenDOS install disables Boot Manager and System Commander >too, and substitutes its own Loader that will let you select between >booting to OpenDOS or booting to MS-DOS(Win95). You have to run FDISK >or SC again to get them back on. And you also get curiosities, such as a refusal to install share.exe due to incompatible os versions--that is you are told you are not running the very 7.02 dos you indeed are. Alas, as gratis ware, support is, if not non-exisitent, let us say, hard to find. I'm not sure this is an upgrade to the DR and Novell DOS's I paid for. But with OS/2 in use for all but a couple of kids's win32 1.30 games, why bother to back out the back-up os? The justification for these guys (or am I confusing it with NewDeal?) is their commitment to serve those with 286's . With 486's @ $200, is that really a worthwhile conservation effort? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- harry travis < htravis@ibm.net> DemostiX -----------------------------------------------------------