Mrs. Matthews' comments upon the group's discussion have been incorporated into the following transcripts - her comments appear in brackets, and are identified by her initials "MM".
Disclaimer: Many of the comments here are my own observations. Other experts may differ. There were some interesting questions and opinions offered in the discussions. My comments are addressed to the person who made the query. Marianne Matthews.
marylois
Lip spots from Keowee are very prevalent in 2d generation.
[Marylois -- You ask about lip spots continuing in the second and third generation. Can say that they do sometimes. Blc. Naples Night is a first generation hybrid [Lc. Zada Fields x B. nodosa] which has dark purple lip spots in its lavender lip. Its progeny, Blc. Texas Evening Star, is a fuller, darker flower, but retains the beautiful trumpet lip and the spots in the lip...MM]
MLight
I find it interesting how some features like lip shape remain so dominant in hybrids even after many generations.
[Marilyn - the persistence of lip shape in several generations is what is so fascinating about breeding with nodosa. Here is a modest sized little flower, light in substance, with skinny petals and sepals, and it is a genetic powerhouse sending its lip shape through two and even three generations...MM]
Barbara
Lois that looks great, how large is the lip, do you know?
marylois
Barb, sure do -- my first AOS award (1989)
[Sounds like one of many, but only three] lip 6.7 cm wide - a tad over 2-1/2" flower natural spread is 13 cm - close to 5"...]
John_in_Arcadia_CA
Marilyn - what would happen if that plant of Keowee where to be crossed with digbyana. Would it dilute the color and give no real improvement to the lip?
[John in Arcadia -- You ask what would happen if Keowee was crossed with digbyana? You should see a big reduction in flower count. The substance of the flowers would become heavier, through the digbyana influence. Digbyana might also bring fringes or extra ruffles to the lip I don'.t think that the petals would be much narrower, but they might reflex along the lateral edges, so they might appear narrower.
Several years ago Keowee was remade and a big block of seedlings was grown and sold by Huan Bui of Florida. I had an opportunity to see a whole greenhouse bench full of them in bloom. The majority were large-flowered, but the color was a shades of pale buff-yellow. Only a few clones were a more decided
yellow, like the awarded clones...MM]
MLight
There is certainly a lot of difference in flower size between clones. I wonder if the size comes from selective breeding or if the size is related to a particular ecotype?
[Marilyn Light -- Re flower size in various hybrids. I would hazard a guess that in many cases it is tied to ploidy. When a high-ploidy nodosa [there are some natural tetraploids] is crossed with a high-ploidy complex hybrid, like Lc. Lorraine Shirai, you'll get large-flowered progeny, like Keowee...MM]
marylois
Of course, Brassolaeliocattleya Keowee 'Vi Galaxy', AM/AOS (Lc. Lorraine Shirai X B. nodosa) makes it half nodosa - and it has over 30% C. dowiana...any wonder it has such a nice large lip????
Helen
Lois, another clone just appeared in AQ with a bright red lip more red in the center than your clone.....BUT YOURS IS A HONEY!!!
MLight
John, if you keep the more strongly colored plant (the Keowee) as the seed parent, it is possible that the color will remain strong. This is because the plastids which contain the yellow pigments (carotenoids) as well as the genes that produce them, are maternally inherited. That would be my hunch, but the proof will be in the cross.
marylois
Marilyn, I would imagine selective breeding...and it makes a new ectotype. Yes, members of a grex of a nodosa cross vary greatly in size...look at Richard Mueller...I'm dying for a BIG Richard Mueller...and see Marianne's Blc. Golden Tang
(another that comes in all sizes).
Marylois -- You mention Bl. Richard Mueller. This cross generally has a relatively pinched lip, a legacy of Laelia milleri, which it tends to pass to its progeny. You'd be better off getting a good Blc. Golden Tang
[a descendant of R. Mueller] and growing it to specimen size. Look at Golden Tang 'Cariad's Daffodil' HCC in the Awards Quarterly. I loathe bragging, but this has the best and fullest lip I have seen...MM]
John_in_Arcadia_CA
That is interesting. I hope that someome tries it. Then take the best and cross in onto a good yellow.
(Maybe something like BLC Malworth? See Blc. Malworth...mlg]
Helen
Well, folks, read the text. The Brassavola plant on the left was nodosa, the one on the right with all those blooms was perrinii which like cordata has tons of blooms, nodosa does not
have that many at one time.
John_in_Arcadia_CA
That Golden Tang is interesting but the lip is "just ordinary" not with what I would like to see with nodosa in the background.
MLight
John, there is a lot of theory, but until someone does the experiment, you never know for certain what will be the outcome. What we have learned working with various genera is that the seed parent should be in tiptop condition in order to get the best possible progeny and likewise for remakes of the same cross.
[The RHS computer program uses the expression 'seed parent' to mean 'pod parent.' Remember the 'mule vs. hinny' discussion in the Awards Quarterly several years ago? Someone made a phal cross and its reciprocal, and kept track of which seedlings came from which, then photographed them on first blooming. The conclusion was that the pod parent had more than a 50% influence on the progeny. I keep that in mind when I hybridize something...MM]
John_in_Arcadia_CA
I made a cross of Vanda Nelly Morley and Vanda robringiana (Fringed lip), but used the Nelly Morley as pod parent. If I had done it in reverse might I have gotten fringe? even though the fringe is recessive?
MLight
John, it is difficult to say how the fringe is inherited. Plastid inheritance is via the ovule and seed parent. Plastids contain genes for certain pigments but not usually for shape features.
marylois
And here's a floriferous B. cordata (name comes from wonderful little heart- shaped lips.)
Barbara
I guess I'll have to get a cordata. I had a small pieces before, didn't survive.
marylois
It's true you get more flowers per infl on perrinii and cordata -- but in a good large-flowered nodosa, you can get 3-4 per infl...and the beauty of it is the number of infls! Did a CCM in Austin TX a couple years ago
-- an 8" diameter limb completely covered with nodosa blooms! All the way around! Grew it on a turnbuckle (as I remember). That limb was 4-5 feet long! They showed it hanging horizontally across the midsection of the exhibit, about eye level..something!
MLight
Nite all. Hope to join again next week. Off to Regina, Saskatchewan for the Canadian Orchid Congress. Till then, Bye!!
marylois
Sheesh! Everyone going - oh! past 10 here, 11 most places...think we should continue this one on Saturday.
marylois
Nite, Marilyn -- your hybridizing insights were most appreciated. Come by ANY time!
[Ed mentions B. perrinii hybrids as being charming. Blc. Everything Nice is a fine example. Everything Nice 'Exquisite' AM (B. perrinii X Blc. Helen Brown) usually has 5 or 6 flowers per stem, and is a lovely green with a red trumpet lip. Usually blooms 3 or 4 stems at one time ... really is a vision. Well worth having...MM]
marylois
Then there would be no Blc. Keowee *sniff*
Ed_in_SAT
I think Keowee is great but I don't see any point in remaking the type. The day of the oversize plant is going fast. I see the future of breeding in this area along smaller growth, more flowers for the plant
Hallie,_VA,_USA
Is B. perrinii difficult to grow? The one in Orchids was lovely.
Ed_in_SAT
Grows about the same for us, Hallie: on a piece of tree fern and never moved. We did try a piece of nodosa in a pot with some sphagnum (the piece broke off and had no roots). It came right along and is a nice plant and still in the sphagnum because nobody has had time to mount it.
Sparky
Ed---you're right on perrinii. Now that I can grow---but have probs with a nodosa
Ed_in_SAT
Sparky, you can be too good to nodosa. Best one I ever saw was in an iron basket atop a sometimes-operational fake waterfall in what I took to be some sort of civic hospitality facility in Nuevo Laredo. It never got any care, and I checked if frequently (solely in the spirit of conservation) and fed it Corona cerveza out of pity.
Sparky
Ed, maybe I have a weak clone?
Hallie,_VA,_USA
Anyone familiar with Slc. Hazel Boyd 'Apricot Glow'? How big does it get? A friend wants to sell one---I may go for it.
marylois
Small plant -- 8-10" tall; 3-1/2 to 4" round lovely sunset color flowers...very worthwhile...and the easiest of the bunch, next to 'Elizabeth', to grow. Just keep the Hazels watered- and dappled or BRIGHT shade is enough for them...I always water them when I start in the greenhouse, and a second time when I leave. When I have to do phals and small paphs, but large pots are still heavy I also hit the 3-1/2 to 4" pots.
Hallie,_VA,_USA
It is currently in bloom; will check it out.
marylois
Bloom doesn't mean roots are still good though - check condition of medium - does it have good drainage?
Ed_in_SAT
Nite, all. Many thanks for a very pleasant evening.
marylois
Thanks for all the goodies you tossed out for us tonight, Ed!
