OrchidSafari ARCHIVES*

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Here's a little something pretty - Cirrhopepetalum rothschildianum 'Red Chimney'.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
Red Chimney is good, it's been awarded. I have one but it's never bloomed.

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Gail, just ran out to the GH and checked. You are right, it is C. rothschildianum 'Red Chimney' and it will bloom if kept cool and quite bright. Water only once a week but keep it near the window and with a daytime temp of around 80 max.

jlenev (Joan in Reno)
Lovely Cirrhopetalum! Looking forward to tonight's discussion, since I have a Gongora problem.

jfall (jfal)
What's the problem, Joan?

jlenev (Joan in Reno)
Spots. A sudden attack of leaf spots and then the leaves turn brown from the tip and drop on a Gongora galeata. Fungus?

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
I wish we could max at 80...a dream, Rick. No wonder it won't bloom!

Richard in West Palm Beach
Jay -- when you visit Colombia, where do you go? Bogota? or coastal?

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Gail, do you have a cooler in your GH? If so, keep it right near the vent. I have a few Masd. too and that is where I have to keep them or they just die.

jfall (jfal)
My family is in Bogata, so I can not go without passing through but I have traveled to half of the country including all the North coast. Santa Marta and over to Riohacha is good orchid country. The best orchid areas are to the west of Medellin where I will be going the next time.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
I grow on my patio Rick au naturel! I'd have to bring them inside to get down to 80!

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Joan, what are the conditions under which you keep the Ctsms? Sorry to hear that, Gail. It may be better to bring them in for the summer.

Richard in West Palm Beach
I went to school for a summer in Quito. Fantastic area.

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Jay, how do you get the orchids out? - or do you?

jfall (jfal)
Joan, leaf spot on gongoras can be from fungus. I use Captan.

jlenev (Joan in Reno) Conditions are bright, good air circulation, but an unusually hot, humid summer (what else is new?) RD20 doesn't work, and I don't know of any other effective fungicides. Help, please. (My Masdevallias look like measles, too.)

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Joan, are the leaves green or yellow when the spots happen. And, have you checked for spidermites???

CaryStarr (Cary....at Boca Raton, Fl....)
My Aerides houlletiana Is only been in bloom,for 2 weeks and it's begining to go down...*pout* I LIVE IN GAIL'S AREA....(HOT)!

jfall (jfal)
Well, CITES are hard to get, so I have just brought them and said I had them and they look and say ok. You can bring in less than 12 without problems if you have an import license.

jlenev (Joan in Reno)
At the start of the spotting, the leaves are green and the spots are tan/beige. Then the spots turn brown and the leaves turn dark yellow and drop. What a mess!

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
I've tried a couple of gongoras and had the same problem, Joan. They do well and then all of the sudden they rot. I gave up.

CaryStarr (Cary....at Boca Raton, Fl....)
I have a couple of them also, Joan. I think it just may be the HEAT. I did fungicide just in case!!

jlenev (Joan in Reno)
Actually, no rot, so far. The pseudobulbs stay unspotted, green and healthy. Also, I thought captan, physan and RD20 were all the same. Please straighten me out.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
Captan is a wettable powder, the other two are more or less the same.

jfall (jfal)
Gongora do like some air circulation, I have put in an outdoor fan and it seems to help alot with all the soft leafed plants. Gongora also lose their leaves at times on the older bulbs.

CaryStarr (Cary....at Boca Raton, Fl....)
Physan 27 - stay away from. Straight Physan? I don't like the name after I have had the problems I have had with Physan 27. It KILLED 3 of my plants! (they are dendrobiums) Joan...I do use RD 20 & love it!!!!!!

jfall (jfal)
I think captan, benomyl and kocide are effective, I use captan the most.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
OK--it's past 9 PM--and Jay is the boss now!

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
Cary you're talking about Phyton 27, it has a copper derivative and you aren't supposed to use it on Dendrobiums.

jlenev (Joan in Reno)
Thanx, all, for the help.

jfall (jfal)
I can start any time with my straight presentation that I have prepared but I expect more people will be on soon.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Thrall us with your acumen, Jay!

doneng (Don from Boca Raton)
Gongoras are easy to grow in Fl. but they hate copper fungicide.

CaryStarr (Cary....at Boca Raton, Fl....)
Yes, Gail, I just realized that! The sound of that word or words SCARE me! hehehe

jfall (jfal)
Well, I thought I would start with a bit on catasetum and pollination, I do have pictures to go with each sending.

Native Heart (Jane in Fort Laud)
Gonna love this, Jay. Love those Catasetums.

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Moderator: Jay Pfahl
Orchid Species Website
Orchid Hybrid Website
WBS, Wed 29 Jul 98

Present were 29:

Richard in West Palm Beach
jfall (Jay - Key West FL)
paulav (Boca Raton FL)
CaryStarr (Boca Raton FL)
sparkysteve (Boca Raton FL)
Jane5536 (L.I., NY)
Andy NVA (Northern VA]
marilyninOttawa
marylois (Northwest LA - just to say "Hello")
runnerRick (Rick - Concord CA)
graphicgreg (South FL)
Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
jlenev (Joan, Reno NV)
ChuckMyr (Austin MN)
sibby jean (Sylvia - Boca Raton FL)
1-Nep-Trident (Wilford)
BTague (Barbara - Northern CA)
AORCHID (Art - SC)
uncleearl (Vacaville CA)
doneng (Boca Raton FL)
Native Heart (Fort Lauderdale FL)
gaillevy (Boca Raton FL)
Carol Holdren (Boca Raton FL)
DavidJ SC (I have no David in SC - need email)
foxtail2 (Doug - Palm Harbour FL)
PaphioDePaphio (Jason - NY)
doneng (Don - Boca Raton FL)
lanceps (Manhattan Beach CA)
tjasz From Las Vegas

jfall (jfal)
Here we go, starting with Catasetum.
Catasetum Kunth, SUBFAMILY Epidendroideae, TRIBE Gongoreae, SUBTRIBE Catasetinae. There are 70 species spread from Mexico to Argentina and the West Indies of this fleshy psuedobulb with eight to twelve deciduous leaves. The inflorescence starts at the base of the psuedobulbs and may be erect or pendulous with male or female flowers. The male flowers are characterized with the ability to eject their pollina up to eight feet from the plant. A good photo of the differences between the two sex's flowers can be seen here.

PLEASE NO PLANTS UNDER THE AGE OF 21! as these photos are explicit. The female flower can be seen with the male pollinia in it's stigmatic cavity [see #1 in photo]. The male flower in the upper right of the picture shows that it has ejected it's pollinia [see #2 in photo], first in that it is missing it's pollinarium and second by the limp colorless look of the flower in general as compared to the flower below [see #3 in photo].

The next example shows a dried female flower [See #2 in photo] 1 day after a successful encounter with a male pollinia, next to a non-impregnated flower [see #3 in photo]. Note the swollen ovary [#1 in the photo] which is actually the stem of the flower. Here is where the seed will develop and in 3-4 months the seed will be mature and the capsule will dry and break open spilling the seed to the wind. Catasetum are warm to intermediate plants that need a decided rest after blooming, or as the leaves drop, in fact I take the bulbs and cut off all the roots and put them in a small pot with no medium. I keep them humid but they get no direct water or fertilizer until the new growth reachs an inch or two, I then repot them in solite, an expanded shale, and fertilize weekly and water daily. The more light you give them [2-3 hours direct sun in the morning for me] the more likely to get the more interesting male flowers, the less light given then female flowers will occur [less than 2 hours].

uncleearl (Earl from Vacaville, CA)
Isn't it true that not all Catasetum's eject pollen? (Trying to remember!!)

jfall (jfal)
I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but most all eject at least an inch or two.

I can answer question at this point about Catasetum or move on to Stanhopea.

Native Heart (Jane in Fort Laud)
I tried that cutting the roots off and just sitting them in a pot, but it did not work for me, I just repot when I see new roots.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
I was always under the impression that the male flowers came because of less light. The female is the one that has a helmet, correct?

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
I have 1 catasetum that looks desiccated it has 2 new growths--is it too late to repot with new mix?

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Do you do the same for cycnoches and mormodes?

I keep them in an empty clay pot over the winter until I see the new growth starting and then I repot.

jfall (jfal)
Maybe it wasn't humid enough. Catasetinae grow in dead rotting wood usually exposed to lots of sun but close to 90' humidity always.

jfall (jfal)
Ellen, Yes even more so, Cycnoches I stop watering as it blooms and don't renew even a drop until the new growth is 4"

marilyninOttawa
Jay, I was wondering if within the genus Gongora, there are some species which are more challenging than others to cultivate?

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Hmmm, I'm bewildered. I hate to be the odd one out but I've heard the argument for unpotting the catasetums and I've just not taken the time to do it and mine keep growing bigger and bigger. My Calanthe Malaya is just about out of the pot. Maybe if I took them out of the pot they would even get bigger???? Now I know that I have to sell them. I just don't have the space for them.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin MN)
Jay, at what temp are the dormant pseudobulbs stored at??

jfall (jfal)
On to Stanhopea
Stanhopea Frost ex Hooker SUBFAMILY Epidendroideae, TRIBE Gongoreae, SUBTRIBE Stanhopeinae. From Mexico to Brazil this genus is hard to beat for its size and beautiful odd complexity, and there are 55 different ways that nature came up with presenting it to us. The ovoid dark green pseudobulbs with a single apical, heavily veined, petiolate leaf give rise to a inflorescence from the bottom of the psuedobulb and grows directly downward and for this reason they must be cultivated in a wire basket. The 1 to many flowered inflorescence has a heavy mostly pleasing fragrance that can fill a house with its scent for days.

The parts of the Stanhopea Flower are shown here.

The column [#1], petals [#2], epichile [#3], Mesochile [#4], hypochile [#5], horn [#6], and the pedicel [#7].

Native Heart (Jane in Fort Laud)
Jay, I did not think that the flowers lasted more than a day or two. Pretty pixs, too.

Carol Holdren (Boca Raton, FL)
Jay, that is beautiful! paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Jay, you say Stans. should be potted in wire baskets, but my two are very small - can't find a wire basket small enough - what should I use instead? Or would it be safe to overpot in a big wire basket?

Native Heart (Jane in Fort Laud)
Are you talking about my prob with cutting roots off? It is pretty humid in Fort Lauderdale. But I have no problem with how I cultivate them and get good results. I just hang em up by the roof all winter, or at least from Christmas till Valentine's Day and then bring them down as the new growth hits 2 inches, repot and start watering every day. I only mist once in a blue moon when they are resting.

jfall (jfal)
Chuck, I am outside in Key West, we don't go below 60 very often even in the depth of winter and now 85-93 degrees.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Jay, are there Stanhopea plants that just won't bloom. I have 2 tigrina growing side by side. One is always in bloom, the other, nothing.

CaryStarr (Cary....at Boca Raton, Fl....)
Paulav I can make U a few. It takes very little effort. I make them out of wire fencing to what ever size you want. Get in touch.

jfall (jfal)
Paula, try one of the plastic net pots and hang with a wire.

Native Heart (Jane in Fort Laud)
Jay, we were down at the Key West show to judge and it was rather COLD! *G*

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Jay, how about Stanhopea in a vanda basket on top of some moss?

jfall (jfal)
Stanhopea have extremely fragrant flowers and mimic insects or birds in their flowers form, note the bee-like lower appendages or also hummingbird-like form in the photo. The mimicry is the hopes of persuading a bee or bird to approach and perchance to bump against the anther cap on the column so that the pollinia can be flipped onto the insects or bird's back or head. This photo, although not of a Stanhopea, clearly shows the anther cap [#3] and the pollinia [#2] flipped out of the end of the column [#4] so as to be picked up with the sticy viscidium at the base of the pollinia [#1] in photo. I have a few that just never seem to want to bloom, frageana comes to mind.

graphicgreg
Personally. I find the wire baskets as ugly as sin, so we use wooden slatted baskets for the Stanhopeas and the inflorescence always seems to find a way out.

jfall (jfal)
Jane, once in a while it gets cold and we can blame that Al Nino guy.

Rick, it can be done but I have seen spike starts that were halted by the wood when I have repotted slat basket plants.

marilyninOttawa
Jay. Are you able to grow Dressleria where you live? I understand that these do not have the same dry season needs of the related Catasetums. Am I correct?

jfall (jfal)
Then this same insect must bumble about another flower and scrape the pollinia off it's back in the stigmatic cavity.

Native Heart (Jane in Fort Laud)
Key West is a magic place, with a wonderful light that coats everything in a mother-of-pearl look, are you near that key?

uncleearl (Earl from Vacaville, CA)

Jay - I seem to recall (tho it's been a long time since I read it!) that van der Pijl & Dodson, in 'Orchid Flowers, Their polliniation and Evolution', said that the Stanhopea attracted their polliniator by fragrance (the polliniators collect fragrances), so I would question your source for the statement regarding mimicry. What is your source?

jfall
The pollinia when introduced to the stigmatic cavity immediately is absorbed by the walls of the cavity and within 24 hours the flower will have caved in allowing the pedicil which is also the ovary to swell as the seed begins to develop. Stanhopea must be grown in wire baskets to provide for the pendant spike that pushes through the loose but medium draining medium, I use sphagnum mixed with OFE special #1. They like moderate shade, warm to intermediate conditions and humid well watered conditions and require no real rest. I fertilize them weekly year round, I do water a bit less in the winter because we here in Key west get a bit cooler.

I'm sorry if I haven't answered all the questions but am trying to get out the program and then we can chat till late.

Coryanthes.

Coryanthes Hooker SUBFAMILY Epidendroideae, TRIBE Gongoreae, SUBTRIBE Stanhopeinae. Coryanthes, which are often found in association with fire ants, who keep their growing site extremely acidic, is actually polliniated by a Hymenopterous insect which is attracted to the odor of the excretions that the bucket-like labellum [#10] or pouch holds.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Jay, I had a Cycnodes Midnight Magic that went downhill. I still have a small pseudobulb that has started a growth. Approximately how long till this plant is mature enough to bloom?

marilyninOttawa
Jay. Can you detect fragrance differences between species or is it only the polliniators that can do so?

jfall
I also say that fragrance is a major attractor but why would the flower adapt a shape of an insect or bird without there being a evolutionary reason.

graphicgreg
That is my understanding also, Earl, that they are polliniated by fragrance-gathering Euglossine bees much the same as Ctsm. If I might point something out, our Stan. grandiflora flowers last only a day...that is, the petals & sepals. But the 'business part, the column, lasts for 2 or 3 days.

uncleearl (Earl from Vacaville, CA)
There are many shapes in flowers which seem to have no real evolutionary significance, at least to humans. In this case, it could simply be chance, or a leftover from an ancestral species.

doneng (Don from Boca Raton)
My Stan. tigrina bloomed on about eight spikes recently while I was away. I use wire baskets and osmunda. The plant has not been repotted in years.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
I still grow them in wood baskets and they bloom just fine.

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Don--did you use osmunda chunks?

marilyninOttawa
One question I have is how those who grow Stanhopeas get these massive blooming plants to shows?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Geeze! I can almost smell them!!!!

jfall
The fluid is dripped from the faucet gland [#2] into the labellum and the insect becomes interested and lands on the edge of the fleshy, waxy labellum driven by the intoxicating scent the insect crawls over the edge and is plunged into the gooey secretions from the faucet glands. Swimming to escape, the only exit is through the [#9] stigmatic cavity where the male pollinia and the female stigma are located. Only one type of insect fits the keyhole through the cavity first passing the stigma and then pick up the male pollinia. After getting out of the flower they can dry off on the lip off the exit, but the Coryanthes needs that same insect to get up and do it again to leave the pollinia in the stigmatic cavity. Some life the bug leads! The parts of the Coryanthes are the epichile [#1], faucet gland [#2], mesochile [#3], hypochile [#4]}, pedicel [#5], lateral sepals [#6], dorsal sepal [#7], petals [#8], entrance to the stigmatic cavity [#9], and the pouch like bucket or labellum [#10].

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Super pics--you must have some camera.

marilyninOttawa
Jay, you say gooey secretions of the faucet glands. Is the secretion sticky, like glue or more like the water it looks like?

jfall
The flower bud of Coryanthes is quite interesting and has the appearance of the man in the moon or of a human fetus. Am I boring ya all or should I go on? Coryanthes like an acid mix so I use sphagnum although I hear Palco, a redwood bark derivitive is very good to use. They like bright light [2-3 hours direct morning sun for me], good humidity, a rest from frequent waterings after flowering or with leaf drop with less fertilizer as well. I do have to repot every two years with sphagnum as it seems to deteriorate quickly here, and it is best done as a new lead is appearing in the spring. I will now open it up to you all. Got any questions?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Doin' GREAT Jay---keep going.

Native Heart (Jane in Fort Laud)
Boy! Those Coryanthes come with all the extras, mud flaps, running boards and chrome exhaust pipes!!!

jfall
It is thicker than water but is not gooey, but it sure does smell.

uncleearl (Earl from Vacaville, CA)
Is it a 'pleasant' fragrance?

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Sometimes my cycnoches leaves get streaky. Can I eliminate that by using rain water?

marilyninOttawa
How long does it take a Coryanthes to grow from seed to blooming size?

jlenev (Joan in Reno)
Great program. Very informative. Many months ago, Jay, I bookmarked your Key West photo website from OLD. I click on it every time I need a tropical vacation. Thank you for a great evening.

graphicgreg
Jay, I understand that it is difficult to maintain Coryanthes in cultivation for more than a few years. What is your experience?

jfall
Earl, most of the Corys and Stanhopeas smell good from peppermints to heavy floral smells. Ellen, mine are in the rain and my leaves don't get streaked, Marilyn, I have heard that it is less than two years although I have no direct experience in that.

marilyninOttawa
Wow, Jay! That is quick.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Jay, how many years from compot to blooming for a cycnoches?

jfall
Ellen, I don't have that knowledge, sorry.

Coryanthes can be shortlived in my experience but they are worth the bother. Even people that don't get orchids think Corys are interesting. A really rare member of the Gongoreae is Soterosantus shephardii from Colombia, a monotypic species.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin MN)
Ok, what about those of us who don't have a greenhouse, are there smaller species of these genera that can be grown under a combination of fluorescent and high pressure sodium lights?? growing outdoors is good only for about three months here.

graphicgreg
Jay, we bought a Soterosanthes from Andrea Niessen at the Redland event in May. Looked like it would croak after ALL THE LEAVES FELL OFF BUT NOW IT IS PUSHING A NEW LEAD...INTERESTING FLOWERS.

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Jay, where do orchids like the Mormodes and the Chysis and Gongora and Calanthe fit within this group. They all look pretty much the same (from the plant standpoint) but are they all directly related?

jfall (jfal)
Chuck, unfortunately most of the Gongoraea are medium to large sized epiphytes but Dressleria is a small Catasetum like plant with ghost flowers.

Rick, all but the Calanthe it's in the Bletiinae, are in the Gongoreae and they are related. Greg, it does drop it's leaves and Andrea is a freind of mine, i have been to her greenhouses in Cali Colombia.

runnerRick (Rick in Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Jay, is that true for Clowesia too?

tjasz (Adenium obesum)..All colors blossom, grow in the same garden)
Hello from Las Vegas...

graphicgreg
Hey Jay, did you get to the Redland Festival?

jfall (jfal)
Rick, Clowesia I do not know.

graphicgreg
I guess you would have if your wife is Colombian. We're planning on going to their festival next September.

jfall (jfal)
Greg, I was there last year, but not this one.

Josh319 (The hosta, water garden, and orchid guy from Iowa!!)
Hi everyone...sorry I missed your talk, Jay. I can't wait to get the transcript, so I can figure out what my ctsm want!!!

jfall (jfal)
I was happy to be a speaker tonight thanks for listening, I have to go as my wife is calling.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Hey Josh---you missed some great pictures!

graphicgreg
Thanks, Jay.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Jay, thanks again! 'Standing round of applause'!!!!!

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