OrchidSafari ARCHIVES*

Present were 35:

eml729 (Eddie, Brooklyn NY)
sparkysteve (Boca Raton FL)
graphicgreg (Greg, South FL)
Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Ruckster1 (Sharon, East TX)
Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Richard in West Palm Beach
nodosa (Ed, San Antonio TX)
Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
paulav (Boca Raton FL
onelaelia (Ursula, Caracas, Venezuela)
clareinla (Los Angeles CA)
Evlyn (northwest LA)
55SS (James in Fresno CA)
Josh319 (Iowa)
JCY8S (John, Arcadia CA)
Andy NVA (Andy, northern VA)
Btague (northern CA)
BCPRESS (Bert, Miami FL)
yoshiko2 (Ann Arbor MI)
JanetteH (need data)
lisav-bigred (Lisa in Fort Myers, FL)
AORCHID (Art, Simpsonville SC)
uncleearl (Vacaville CA)
Native Heart (Jane, Fort Lauderdale FL)
doneng (Don in Boca Raton FL)
Carol Holdren (Boca Raton FL)
AJHicks (Soccoro - NM)
gaillevy (Boca Raton FL)
PaphiodePaphio (Jason, Brooklyn NY)
Foxtail2 (Doug, Palm Harbour FL)
KBbarrett (Kathy, northern CA)
Digorchids (Doug, Houston TX)
Platystele (Peggy in Wisc)
Orchidave (Toronto - need email)
Peterlin (Dallas TX)

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Who is the 'Steve' who is going to talk on culture? We sure need some on this chat.

doneng (Don from Boca Raton)
I heard this chat was to be hosted by the Dr Kevorkian of the orchid world.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
It's not me Ed---I ain't got no culture!!!! I volunteered to discuss growing of orchids--and how sometimes people do TOO much for them. I see too many people nurturing their plants soooooo much they look sickly!

clareinla
Steve, a benign neglect talk? Sounds good to me.

onelaelia (ursula, caracas, venezuela)
Great, would like to know what am doing wrong!!!

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Steve, even some of the big growers are guilty of this - and they're paying someone to do it.

lisav-bigred (Lisa in Fort Myers, FL))
This sounds like a 'talk' I need! I still have a small collection, so I can afford to spend more time ('too much' time?) on them.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
AJ Hicks made a statement that I really liked 'You can't use chemicals in place of culture' [I think Marilyn Light echoes this sentiment! --KB]

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
I like 'benign neglect' as a concept..

onelaelia (ursula, caracas, venezuela)
At risk of shooting mouth off, my problem is the different environments the various species/their hybrids need.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Let me use this as an example--I have citrus trees--and they produce fruit--does that mean I culture the plants--no they just grow here!!!

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Steve, I find growth slowed down when plants are moved or handled too much. They seem to conform to the light and water patterns in their area and resent changes.

Richard in West Palm Beach
Sparky -- I know if I buy a plant that has been grown 'hard' that it will respond and grow much better than one that is grown 'soft'. Unfortunately, lots of people want a nice dark green plant that is lush (and VERY 'soft'.) That kind will generally not thrive as well as one that is yellow-green and grown 'hard'. (Please -- exclude Paphs and Phals from my comments - I don't grow either or them!)

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Yes, Ed--sometimes it takes a few years to acclimate to a new ''home''

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Especially true Sparky when they are plants from out of the country.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Me neither, Richard! I find that a plant grown HARD becomes hardier and less chance of bugs and diseases.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
That's sure true, Steve. The weak plant is the one that gets sick.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Steve (Sparky) may be right about growing hard (!) - I tried and experiment with about 7 Den. lasianthera hybrids - put them out in the front yard in a lava rock bed with 100% full S.Fla sun exposure - they all got a bit sunburned at first, but now they are blooming like crazy!!!

clareinla
Can we get a definition of culture? Is it holding out the pinky when I pull out the oxalis from the pot?

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
I'd think 'culture' would have to include getting the most out of your plant and its environment - greenhouse, window sill, outside or whatever.

AJHicks (Seedbank Butthead)
Culture is everything. Poor culture = weak plants, which equates quickly to sick plants. Sick plants then inspire use of chemicals not normally necessary in the plan of culture.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Sparky are there plants that just don't flower?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
I had a Den. lindleyi for 5 years before it flowered. Ellen-I have a plant, a B. nodosa that is a poor grower and flowerer--and they are supposed to be easy to grow---some plants just don't want to grow!

BTague (Barbara from N. Calif. of 102~)
It took me 5years to bloom my L. sincorana.

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
But wasn't it worth it, Barbara?

BTague (Barbara from N. Calif. of 102~)
Jane,yes, I almost gave it away, now just bloom one after the other.

AJHicks (Seedbank Butthead)
Is Laelia sincorana one of those rupicolous species?

55SS (James in Fresno)
What is rupicolous?

AJHicks (Seedbank Butthead)
Rupicolous species are those species that live on rocks - hot, dry. Extreme environments.

[NOTE: There are eight transcripts in archives dealing with the rupicolous laelias - and one is the MARVELOUS topic on that very subject by Greg Allikas (Rupicolous Laelias, Greg Allikas, 15 Jul 98 ) - just do a search on "rupicolous"...mlg]

onelaelia (ursula, caracas, venezuela)
For me it was air, I grow in an open area (no winter) and all my plants nearly died until I took off the fiberglass roof and substituted for saran.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Many of the Brassavolas respond well when soaked in plain water, then in water with a teaspoon of salt added, then plain water again.

JanetteH
Why the salt, Ed?

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Ursula - do you still grow 'under cover'?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
I had a Phal. Sarah Francis Pridgeon in 70% sun and it was flowering every year for me! I felt sorry for it---divided it and moved it into shade---it hasn't bloomed in two years!

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
I think sincorana would not be included among the rupicolous Laelias.

JCY8S (John in Stormy Arcadia, CA)
Put it back, Steve!

55SS (James in Fresno)
ok, what about L. lucasiana?

lisav-bigred (Lisa in Fort Myers, FL))
Hey, Paula -- it occurred to me that you never seem to have problems blooming your B. nodosa, but you get a lot of the salt air since you're so close to the ocean -- what do you think, Ed. Could that have an effect?

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Lisa, I'd think there could be a connection. James - yes, lucasiana would probably be a rupicolous type. I'm no taxonomist, of course.

graphicgreg (almost autumn in SoFla)
L. sincorana is not one of the rupicolous species. It grows mostly on vellozia shrubs in the Serra do Sincora and is more closely related to L. pumila, praestans, etc.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Ed--I used to have a B. cordata that grew like a weed!--got a rot and was gone in one day.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Interesting, Lisa - I never thought of that. Yes, I have a B. nodosa in bloom right now that is positioned in my growhouse to take advantage of the Easterly breeze - from the ocean!

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Janette - can't say on the salt, it just seems to be beneficial. Many of the Brassavolas live near the sea, so maybe they are just homesick.

graphicgreg (almost autumn in SoFla)
Ed, we saw B. nodosa growing on mangrove root in Belize last year...it was about six inches above the brackish water and in very tough conditions indeed.

JanetteH
Thanks, Ed. I have had a lot of trouble blooming that one and any advice is appreciated.

lisav-bigred (Lisa in Fort Myers, FL))
Was the nodosa in Belize in bloom, Greg? I wish so much mine would do something. I've had it for close to 2 years now, and zippo on the blooms.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Try it in a basket Lisa and give it good light.

graphicgreg (almost autumn in SoFla)
Yes Lisa, the nodosa was in bloom in October.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
I still say some plants are just bad clones!

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
I agree Sparky, some plants are just duds.

Carol Holdren (Boca Raton, FL)
I agree, there are bad clones!

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
And some awarded plants aren't grown to their fullest!

BCPRESS (Bert back in Miami)
But when you do get the right clone, it makes you think you've got the right culture at last.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Again Bert, there are some clones that will.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
You know, Steve, some plants probably are bad clones. I've noticed certain crosses are widely held at one time, then most of them die in a very short period, everywhere.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
You're right Ed---even in the wilds you can notice that some plants just do not want to flower--and it has nothing to do with the conditions.

graphicgreg (almost autumn in SoFla)
The fact that some clones have more vigor makes it more important to not buy just one plant of a species (not to mention that some can be downright ugly) When we buy imported species we never buy less than two of any any and usually 3 or 4 if it's something we really want.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
I agree, Greg. We try to bloom 30 of every cross we make. Not always easy, but you can't see the range and the distribution with a smaller quantity.

JCY8S (John in Stormy Arcadia, CA)
By the way, I put Den. kingianum out where it is getting full sun until about 1:00pm. It has put on bigger growths this year and there isn't a sign of burn on any of the leaves despite the great heat. Maybe the plant will bloom gloriously this year.

BCPRESS (Bert back in Miami)
Kingianum grows like a weed in S Florida - but never blooms.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
We have a 'Queen of Orchids' in the local club--I gave her an E. tampensis that was blooming for me, and she killed it! I wonder why?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Projec)
Den. kingianium is also one of those great kiekeirific species. :-) Plenty to give to friends.

JCY8S (John in Stormy Arcadia, CA)
Yes, Kingianum does produce many keikis This plant is WAY out of the pot and produced growths this year almost 14 inches high. And few keikis.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Projec)
We had one of our best growers here in Albuquerque bring one to the last meeting; it was in mud for something like 3 years - perfectly healthy roots. She's a very good grower, but I think the plant didn't mind the mud mix either.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Whatever it is, if you are getting a lot of keikis on a plant, chances are overwhelming that you are feeding it too much Nitrogen.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
I don't know if that's true with the nobiles, Ed.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Also might not be enough cool for the Den, Ed.

graphicgreg (almost autumn in SoFla)
I believe it is too hot in SoFla for Den. kingianum to bloom, although Bill Guthrie has told me he has no trouble blooming it in Jacksonville. We had a plant that grew well for about ten years and showed us a few flowers once. I finally gave it away to the Ft. Myers Soc.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
There's been a recent thread on the OLD (Orchid List Digest) about the extreme difficulty in growing, much less blooming, Epi. Costa Rica - does anyone here have any success with this one?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
What about D. loddigesii Greg? I can't flower it bit I've seen it flower down here.

graphicgreg (almost autumn in SoFla)
We have not done well with Epi. Costa Rica but Epi. Gold Dust does well. Apparently they require more light than one might expect.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
I have Epi. Costa Rica with my phals - it's still alive!

doneng (Don from Boca Raton)
Epi. Costa Rica is very pretty but only lasts about a year in S. Fla.

clareinla
Yes, I have a Costa Rica, and was quite surprised at the thread of how hard they are to grow. I almost feel 'accomplished' for having no problems with it.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
One point that is overlooked in culture is the value of smelling the plant and the medium. A plant should smell nice - if it doesn't find out why. In many imports from SE asia, one will find a fish odor early on. Dry them out and hit with fungicide at once or they will be gone.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Projec)
What is the parentage of E. Costa Rica? Anyone know?

BCPRESS (Bert back in Miami)
schumanniana x pseudowallasii, I think.

graphicgreg (almost autumn in SoFla)
Lisa, we brought the Den. kingianum for the raffle table when I did the photo program last year. Hey Sparky, I think that where people have trouble with some of the Dendrobes is that they can't make themselves neglect them. These are plants that NEED a rest period. I move ALL of the deciduous Dens out under the orange tree in November and forget them until April.

BCPRESS (Bert back in Miami)
Have tried wintering kingianum in fridge for a week, but didn't help.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Bert is right about Epi. Costa Rica - Epi. schumannianum x Epi. pseudowallisii, registered in 1968 by Goodale Moir.

Carol Holdren (Boca Raton, FL)
The Epi. Costa Rica that was awarded was from a grower in WI. That should tell us something!

graphicgreg (almost autumn in SoFla)
Epi Costa Rica is schumannianum x pseudowallisii. Gold Dust is back onto walisii. These are higher altitude plants from Central America, mostly Panama. We had success with a straight Epi. schumannianum for about five years until the spider mites did it in. I had it Double Potted, a smallish clay pot inside a bigger one with aquarium charcoal between. We use this technique with Bifrenaria and it seems to work...keeps the roots cooler.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
I guesss I'm lucky here--Plants that are used to the conditions we have here grow well.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Yeah, I know, Steve - an expert is someone who has killed a thousand plants. Still, the newcomer really needs a good general guide. "Home Orchid Growing" is a very good place to start.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
That can be a problem with new growers---just because ''the book'' says so doesn't mean that orchids will survive in your conditions.

graphicgreg
If I might play the Devil's advocate here on a completely unrelated topic: How is it that somewhere around 30% of the AOS awards granted each year stem from only 60 or so species when there are thousands of other orchids worthy of merit ? Aren't things a little out of balance here ? Haven't we awarded ENOUGH Paph. armeniacums ? There may be an insurrection brewing, I know of some highly regarded growers who don't even consider that Paphs ARE orchids !

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Good for you, Greg

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Whoa, Greg, you ARE stirring the pot!

JCY8S (John in Stormy Arcadia, CA)
Greg - they must be from Florida where they don't grow well!!

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Project)
Heh. There's a movement afoot, Greg.

lisav-bigred (Lisa in Fort Myers, FL))
Good point, John!

JanetteH
Greg, do you feel that it is the judges or are people just not bringing in other plants, or a combination of the two?

onelaelia (caracas, venezuela)
Too many species are just too hard to grow or come from incompatible evironments.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
I've killed a number of Paphs, now I know why, they aren't really orchids, I feel so much better!

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Gail, you're funny! And, that explains my high paph mortality rate too. Thanks!!!

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Project)
One tiny micro-orchid was awarded at the Oklahoma City judging center last time around (an AM?). Very unusual. One of the judges has a microscope just for such purposes. Who's going to award Pleurothallid-group species if they can't see them to appreciate them?

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Greg, we award what comes in. New, strage things, if good quality, get a judges commendation (JC) or Certificate of Horticultural Merit (CHM).

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
There is a fellow in Homestead that grows Paphs and seems to think that the judging center isn't really knowledgeable in that department. He thinks if he sends them up North his chances of getting awards is greater. Any comments??

graphicgreg
Personally, I think that the current Paph craze is just a matter of fashion....and yes, the only plants (notice I didn't say orchids) some people can grow with sucess. But does that mean we should keep awarding every subtle nuance of vivicolor Paph ?

PaphioDePaphio
Gail: ask him to send it to Philly... they award lots of Paphs. there.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Greg, I agree with you - I wish the judges would be more open-minded and give notice to all the other fabulous orchids out there.

onelaelia (caracas, venezuela)
Send them up North for judging? How far north? We do alright in Tampa and from AQ the Centers further south do alright too.

graphicgreg
Well, Gail, as I said, Ernie gets Paphs awarded right here in Fla almost every time he shows them...I know, I have photographed them. I almost think just the opposite, that it might be easier to get an Ascda awarded in Philadelphia than Miami (from personal experience)

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
Well, Ursula, I guess we would consider Tampa as Up North!

BCPRESS (Bert back in Miami)
I feel I have several awardable Catasetums, but they are only showable for couple of days, unlike Paphs and Vandas. I've got a great Sobralia decora that is kaput at 4 PM - where can I show it?

onelaelia (caracas, venezuela)
Thanks, Gail, we judge everything, as long as it is GOOD.
[Right on, Ursula!...mlg]

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Lots of really nice orchids aren't in bloom at the time of judging. Some are large or have short-lived blooms, like Sobralia. I'm lucky to live in an area where there is judging 2x monthly, but no one in my society bothers to take their good stuff in. They do like Paphs.

graphicgreg
onelaelia, do you suppose that because Paphs are not native that they are more favored in Caracas ? I remember that at the 11th WOC in Miami the Venezuelans really liked our Haemaria discolor (from Asia) and we traded for some nice C. maxima.

graphicgreg
What color is your Sobralia decora, Bert ? We have a beautiful concolor lavender one but brought back a semi-alba from Belize last year. WPB judging is at 2PM and I expect that eventually I will get ours there.

onelaelia (caracas, venezuela)
Yeah, life is tough judging-wise for the one-day wonders: stanhopeas, sobralias, etc. Locally here we can convene a judging at a grower's request for that sort of thing, but the AOS judging centers are just too big and it would be unfair to oulaying areas.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
bcpress, put it in a show with morning judging.

clareinla
Thamina, What about those ocean breezes. Don't you have perfect conditions?

BCPRESS (Bert back in Miami)
Lavender too, Greg. Scents up whole back yard when Blooms, too, Greg. Ought to be special awards for fragrance.

doneng (Don from Boca Raton)
And Steve, our host, is going to bed

Thanks Steve, for a wonderful job, on such short notice! --KB

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