OrchidSafari ARCHIVES*

1. PRE-DISCUSSION MAILOUT

2. TOPIC TRANSCRIPT

{I} For those hobbyists having plants outdoors and intending to bring them indoors:

1 - Make sure that the orchids are as healthy as possible before bringing them indoors.

2 - Check for pests and treat as required. Employ 'indicator' plants such as Impatiens to be quickly aware of spider mite invasions if they occur.

3 - Reduce the frequency of fertilization or stop fertilizer application if plants are becoming dormant.

4 - Adjust watering and fertilizer schedules to accommodate reduced light, lower humidity as appropriate.

5 - Monitor temperature, humidity and air movement in all parts of the growing area. Watch for stagnant air pockets.

6 - Examine your collection at least weekly for signs of disease and pests. Have a 'hospital bench' to isolate sick plants.

7 - Protect orchids against sudden changes in temperature and humidity. Shelter cold-sensitive plants from cold condensation droplets falling from a greenhouse roof.

8 - Increase or supplement light to maintain plant vigor.

9 - Day length affects many orchids, triggering them to either bloom or rest. Vary the artificial day length in harmony with the season, 8-12 hours in winter versus up to 16 hours in summer. Check that windowsill or greenhouse plants are not being accidentally illuminated by outdoor or indoor lights at night during winter.

9 - Lay down a supply of rain water or use another source of mineral-free water for winter use.

10 - If using a gas heater, verify that it is vented properly. Install an alarm system to guard against heater failure. Have the heater checked annually to forestall crises. Plan for a back up if loss of power or heater breakdown will put your collection at risk.

{II} For those hobbyists raising orchids outdoors and intending to leave them outdoors over winter:

1 - Verify that the orchids you plan to leave outdoors are indeed hardy in your area. Have a plan ready to implement in case of unexpected freezes, storms, etc. Vulnerable plants should be easy to move at short notice.

2 - If occasional frost is a risk to plants growing in the landscape, establish orchids where there is overhead shelter in the form of evergreen foliage or overhanging limbs. Ensure that rapid drainage is possible during winter rains.

3 - Reduce the frequency of fertilization or stop fertilizer application if plants are becoming dormant.

4 - Monitor minimum and maximum temperatures in selected growing locations. Keep records so you can relate successes and failures to location and conditions.

5 - Day length affects many orchids, triggering them to either bloom or rest. Check that outdoor plants are not being accidentally illuminated by outdoor or indoor lights at night.

{III} For those hobbyists who maintain their orchids indoors year round either on a window sill, under lights or in a greenhouse:

1 - Give your orchids a 'fall check-up'. Divide, re-pot, cull as needed. Look for pests that may have flourished while you were on summer vacation. Control as required.

2 - Day length affects many orchids, triggering them to either bloom or rest. Vary the artificial day length in harmony with the season, 8-12 hours in winter, 16 hours in summer. Check that windowsill or greenhouse plants are not being accidentally illuminated by outdoor or indoor lights at night.

3 - Reduce the frequency of fertilization with the shortening day or stop fertilizer application if plants are becoming dormant.

4 - Adjust watering and fertilizer schedules to accommodate reduced light, lower humidity as appropriate.

5 - Monitor temperature, humidity and air movement in all parts of the growing area. Watch for stagnant air pockets.

6 - Protect orchids against sudden changes in temperature and/or freezing. Shelter cold-sensitive plants from cold condensation droplets falling from a greenhouse roof.

7 - If using a heater, have it checked annually to forestall crises. Install an alarm system to guard against heater failure and plan for a back up if loss of power or heater breakdown will put your collection at risk.

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TRANSCRIPT

Members present were 22:

Orchidales (newbie - drops in sporadically - no info)
55SS (James in Fresno)
Josh319 (IA)
sparkysteve (Boca Raton FL)
digorchids (Doug, Houston TX)
Jane5536 (L.I., NY)
MarilyninOttawa
marylois (northwest LA)
JCY8S (John, Arcadia CA)
BCPRESS (Bert, Miami FL)
Richard in West Palm Beach
Lanceps (Thamina, Manhattan Beach CA)
AORCHID (Art, Simpsonville SC)
gaillevy (Boca Raton FL)
Evlyn (northwest LA)
Andy NVA (northern VA)
KB Barrett (northern CA)
graphicgreg (Greg, South FL)
Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
johngingarland (John, Garland TX - WELCOME!)
foxtail2 (Doug, Palm Harbour FL)
Chuckorchids (need data)

marilyninOttawa
Hello, everyone. Today we will be discussing that all important change of season, its potential impact on orchids in our collections and what we can do to make the seasonal passage easier for all concerned. I realize that some of you grow indoors year round, some grow outdoors in summer and some grow outdoors year round. Perhaps you could let me know which is your growing style?

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Out in summer--in greenhouse in fall and winter.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
GH all year, cymbidiums outside all year. Nothing moved in and out. I have a Den. kingianum that has never been in the GH for the last 30 years. Also Bletilla striata planted right in the garden (4' x 8').

55SS (James in Fresno)
Everything but small seedlings outside, most in for the winter.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Everything out in April, in by Oct 1st in Bossier City LA.

marilyninOttawa
Sounds as if Lois has much the same schedule as me except that I put plants out after the danger of killing frost is past (late May). Cymbidiums, Pleiones, Den. kingianum and Den. speciosum can go out early and can stay out longer than the rest.

marilyninOttawa
I would be interested in the Florida experience. Do any Floridians overwinter orchids outdoors?

sparkysteve
All mine stay out.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
I do, Marilyn, the trick is to pray a lot.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
Mine are out and also I pray. IF it gets too cold, my favorites come inside. I think it will be a crazy winter after all this El Nino stuff.

marilyninOttawa
Where you can manage it, having certain orchids outdoors year round can be better for the plants. Challenges are different for each kind of orchid.

sparkysteve
I have a friend here in Florida that lets his plants go 'dormant' so they don't get any shock.

marilyninOttawa
Getting some orchids into a 'dormant' stage before wintering indoors can definitely be beneficial. What do you find are the major challenges in keeping orchids outdoors in Florida? In California?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Watering is the main challenge here in CA. We are in a semi-desert area and the humidity is usually low so watering is a very important item. Wet one day then dry the next without any warning!

marylois (Topic in Session)
For the first time, I plan to leave Paph. armeniacum, the kingianums out til freezing...I already leave nobile dendrobiums out til then.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
They say Vandas don't like going under 50 especially the light colored ones. Some people try to harden off their plants, cut back on the fertilizer and water less frequently.

marilyninOttawa
Vandas with V. sanderiana in the background are not helped by chilling. Other Vandas such as V. coerulea and V. Rothschildiana are more tolerant of cold but would prefer being grown under somewhat gentler temperatures. Occasional chills are tolerated.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Catasetums, which may rot when cool, can take up to freezing when dry.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Everything but phals out year round, (I don't have Paphs). The El Nino is drowning them so GH coming.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Another ploy just implemented this year...after blooming, I'm taking indoors and placing under bench with very little water/fert - for a rest. When new eyes break, I'll bring them up...repot if necessary.

marilyninOttawa
I recommend the use of floating row cover (Reemay) cloth which is spun woven, lightweight polypropylene. Light as a feather, this cloth protect what is beneath from up to 2 degrees of frost. It would be ideal in marginal areas.

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Marilyn, I like to get mine in except cool ones before the heat blasts on in greenhouse--always seems to be a couple of weeks or more before it comes on so nothing really seems to get shocked.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Yes - I remove all potting media from Catasetums and hang on north side in an unwatered area - I get to feeling sorry for them and give a quick squirt if I'm using a low nitrogen fert...I repot n spring when new growth first shows.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Someone suggested that I put my Paph. armeniacum and micranthum in the refrigerator at night for 3 weeks (I think ), but when should I start this?

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Lois--when what finishes blooming?

marylois (Topic in Session)
Sorry, Jane - mainly the cattleya family.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Marylois, I leave them [catasetums] snug in old mix and repot in spring.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Right, Jane - I don't even turn the heat on til I've had a couple of weeks of 50 degrees.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Bert, we are in the same boat. We have not had a freeze for several years. This is very unusual so maybe this year we will.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Being coastal I don't have a humidity problem. My sheltered patio gets into high 30's so the catts go dormant.

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
You get that low--Lois?

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
Our humidity drops quite a bit in the winter.

marylois (Topic in Session)
We always get a freeze or two...and most winters an ice storm or two from Dallas *S*.

marilyninOttawa
As nights lengthen and night temperatures drop, many orchids are triggered into blooming. Phals, Sarcochilus, Masdevallias, Epi. porpax, etc., will respond to cooler nights. That is why some of us I suspect, try to leave plants outdoors in autumn.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I am already beginning to show some buds on my complex Paph hybrids. This seems VERY early. Some of the early ones like fairrianum of course are already showing which is normal.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
When I'm not praying, I try to regulate water real carefully. Keep things on dry side, but not so dry things wither.

marylois (Topic in Session)
True, Marilyn - that's why I let the heat stay off until Nov or early Dec - whenever I've had two consecutive weeks of 50-55 degrees.

marilyninOttawa
I haven't risked chilling my Catasetums at this time of year as many are spiking and shows are in the offing. I agree that Catasetum, Cycnoches, Mormodes, etc., can be easily damaged by chilling when in active growth. Chilling can be simply 50F (10C) and not necessarily at or about freezing to do damage.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Lois - 50-55F at night or during the day?

marylois (Topic in Session)
Watering is my downfall, Bert...will try harder this year. That's why I unpot the Ctsms - if they get wet, they dry fast!

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
I've learned it's remarkable how well most orchids tolerate short spells of 50F degrees.

marylois (Topic in Session)
John - nights. I've lots of growth on the Ctsms, but NO spikes yet! Darn hot wx! Was cooler today - like Hawaii - in October.

marilyninOttawa
It can be a shock for plants normally accustomed to warm/hot days and cool nights with moderate humidity of 50-60% to suddenly be challenged with minimal temperature variation day to night and low (20-30%) humidity. Yet this what can easily happen when plants are brought into northern greenhouses and homes.

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
My heat comes on when grnhse hits 58--too hard to keep it any other way as the area is blocked with plants when I bring them in but I close the grnhse up tight every nite so temp outside is usually in 40's before inside heat goes on

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
When I was young and naive I used to unpot Catasetums for winter, but many rotted. Winter rains here just the right amt of water for them

marilyninOttawa
Stressed plants become susceptible to pests and diseases so if these "baddies" are "waiting in the wings" then they can strike with a vengeance.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Our nights, Lois, have not been above 62F for many weeks!!! hot days but cool nights. We have already had some nights in the upper 50's

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
If I have a catt that needs a repot in the winter, like roots dying, I unpot it and set it in the empty pot until root growth in spring.

marylois (Topic in Session)
The unpotting does two things for me (if not the ctsms); if I forget and get them wet when watering, they just say thank you and dry out, and I MUST repot in spring...not a matter of choice or neglect. *S*

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
John I'm jealous! I've noticed we get black leaves rather easily when it gets too cool.

marylois (Topic in Session)
hrummmph, John - nights here fall into high 70's for a few hours after midnight!

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
For short cool spells in S FL, ground retains much heat. In other parts country, you don't have this advantage.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Gail - CA does have some redeeming features!! LOL

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
My plants are all around the pool so that gives a little extra heat and humidity.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Cool nights are what set the spikes on cyms. Usually our August nights are fairly cool. My wife says its cym weather. I guess that is why CA grows good cyms.

marilyninOttawa
As I understand it, Chinese Paph species are normally subject to dry, cool winters where temps dip near freezing. I would expect that a minimum of 40 days might be necessary for conditioning, while the plants are kept on the dry side but still in bright, filtered light.

marilyninOttawa
Thamina. Do you grow L. anceps and related hybrids?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Ok, Marilyn, but should I start the 40 days minimum now?

marylois (Topic in Session)
According to the new Baker/Braem book, 50-55 is low enough for the parvis, except armeniacum which likes it a bit colder. OH! My warm-growing ensifolium cross, Cym. Golden Elf is now opening SIX Spikes!

marilyninOttawa
John. I understand that the late rains may have affected the timing of many plants. Maybe this is the reason for the early budding??

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
If you leave things out in open, plants exposed to different conditions each year. Some prosper, some suffer. That's the way you get awardable orchids.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I just discovered a spike on my Golden Elf today plus a spike on my Cym. parishii 'Emma Menninger' That one has remained in the greenhouse all summer and the new growth looks great!

marilyninOttawa
Right on, Bert. When orchids are cool, keep them on the dry side to avoid injurious rot setting in.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Boy, that's the truth, Bert! When I put plants out for summer, I am always bringing in one or two which appear would be happier inside.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I never thought of that, Marilyn. Yes, we did have a VERY cool May and June but record heat in July and August. It has affected ALL of us *G*

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
My Golden Elf must have chronic disease. Bloom spike seldom has more than 1 flower, but keikis like mad.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Will photograph mine in a few days - blooms just opening.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I have about 10 clones of L anceps, and about 40 anceps hybrids. Lots of sources here: Cal-Orchids, Santa Barbara Orchid Estates, Stewarts, etc. I have at least 100 other catt hybrids. L. anceps likes a drier winter. Note my screen name.

marilyninOttawa
Right now, night temperatures are in the 48-50F range in Ottawa yet the orchids are still out. Many really prefer the cooler conditions but not all. Some Oncidiums are quite intolerant of cold temperatures. I know from experience, not to leave these out. Also, flower buds and flowers will quite vulnerable to Botrytis (fungal spot). Any plants in bud/sheath are brought in to avoid spoiling the blooms.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
I don't suppose that it is practical for temperate growers, but we move all of our orchids that prefer a winter rest out under the orange tree in November. When it rains, they get watered. Otherwise they are basically ignored until Feb or March. The deciduous Dens really seem to appreciate this treatment. Oh, forgot to mention that we move them in the event of a freeze

KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif)
I'd like to ask Marilyn how she debugs her pots when she brings plants in from outside.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Marilyn, someone suggested putting the cymbidiums on plastic and surrounded the pots with salt in order to kill any slugs before bringing them in. Have you ever heard that?

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Wonder where you heard that, Ellen?

marylois (Topic in Session)
I never take the oncidiums outside at all - much easier to manage inside year round.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Growing outdoors I do lose sheaths on catts when it gets cold and wet. Try to bring them in.

sparkysteve
Marilyn---does Botrytis occur when they are in buds?

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
I move everything out to disinfect and de-bug.

KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif)
I'd also like to ask how you can tell when a plant is 'dormant'? Is that different from just 'not growing now'?

marilyninOttawa
John. I would suggest that you gradually decrease watering while permitting the plants to experience cooler nights.

KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif)
I'd also like to ask how Marilyn supplements light when she moves her plants indoors. I think that is how I lost several of my Ascdas last winter, they liked it a lot outside and hated coming back inside. Withered and died in spite of my ministrations.

marilyninOttawa
Sounds like your screen name is well chosen Thamina. Have you tried any other laelias such as L. albida? I grow it dry all summer (although it can be humid) then start watering and feeding about now which seems to correspond to its growth pattern. Blooming will happen in December.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Do cymbidiums need the same amount of light once their spikes are formed? The reason for my question is I'm babysitting cymbidiums for a friend and have only a limited sun space for them in the greenhouse. Will they still bloom with less light?

AORCHID
Did anyone ever answer your question about dormancy, Kathy? I have some spring blooming catts that set sheaths in late June and July and have been sitting all summer. Are they dormant or just not growing?

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.):.
I only have a few happy cymbidiums, if I forget to fertilize in the summer, then they don't bloom. My only problem with them.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Ellen, some folks move the green cyms to lesser light - hold the color better...same thing with green catts.

KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif)
No, Art, Marilyn hasn't gotten to it yet. It's an interesting fine point though.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Is there a difference between going dormant and just resting?

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Has anybody tried that 'Protek' ? It is supposed to increase cold tolerance in the winter. I have always found that if we grow our orchids like vegetables during the growing season they are more tolerant of cold, that is, fast and hard.

[Also supposed to protect in hot weather - I've used it, but not consistently...Wundergrow, now known as "Jerry Grow" is also said to protect in hot weather - I found this true - don't know about cold weather...mlg]

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I think not Ellen. If you give them a lot of light, the flowers will fade rapidly. I used to bring about 50 plants up to the patio where the light was less and the flowers didn't fade much. It was a real show!

marylois (Topic in Session)
Some orchids form a sheath and immediately form buds, others stay empty for several months before buds form, some don't make a sheath at all, just make buds...then there are those that make two/three sheaths! You see the latter in hot climates...seems to be a way of protecting the buds to come, but I find I must remove the extra one (or two) if I expect the buds to get out.

KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif)
And how can you tell? There's a lot of time when my plants don't appear to be doing anything, no root production, sheaths, bulbs, nada.

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Same thing happens here, Lois.

marilyninOttawa
Speaking of bugs or rather 'debugging'. There are several possible approaches and treatment will depend on which bugs we are dealing with. 1) Big critters including sowbugs, earwigs, centipedes, millipedes, slugs, earthworms - I place the pot in a pail of soapy water and let it stand for a couple of minutes. Sowbugs, earwigs. etc escape and/or drown. Slugs may or may not leave so if you expect these could be present, it is better to bait the area around the pots (with metaldehyde pellets) a few days before treating the plants.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Ellen - only if the spikes are already started (but you may not see them for a while yet!)

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I keep losing L. albida, I keep trying. I've got 3 little guys now, I try both pot and slab. Maybe I should buy larger specimens. I've got L. purpurata, gouldiana, speciosa. I've crossed my darkest L. anceps to L. speciosa (L. Grace Bell), they're in compots now.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
If your plants aren't doing anything, don't try to make them

marilyninOttawa
For little critters such as mites, thrips, scale crawlers, etc., again much depends on what you expect to be present. I might dip my plants in a miticide to avoid bringing unseen mite demons into my collection. You could also consider beneficial predators for your greenhouse.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
L. Grace Bell sounds very interesting!!!

KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif)
Greg but would you say they were dormant?

55SS (James in Fresno)
Are there any miticides you recommend?

marilyninOttawa
A third approach is to do repotting now and discover creatures lurking in pots, removing them. This approach works well for sowbugs and snails. Of course, we do not want to repot all our orchids now but it is an option.

Evlyn
If I try the soak method the bark floats off and I get a real mess.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Just semantics...dormant or resting.

sparkysteve
Just keep the water level equal to the bark, Evlyn.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
I thought sowbugs never hurt nobody???

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Marilyn, I used to put a piece of saran screening in the bottom of my pots and that helped a great deal to keep ''critters'' out - at least those that go in through the bottom!

Evlyn
I pour Pine-Sol solution thru the pot.

KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif)
Evie, that was going to be my comment too! I can't control the bark! I almost considered taping the tops shut (Like is done for shipping) but thought that would be nuts!

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Pine Sol?

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I have a lovely, large, ruffled purple and white catt, one of my favorites, Blc. Maharanee. It blooms every other year, no new growth on off year either. I've had it 8 years.

marilyninOttawa
Ellen, I have brought my collection in, in a hurry, on occasion and have seen all sorts of big critters emerge at night. Slugs will not emerge unless it is wetter outside the pot than within and then only at night. I think that metaldehyde bait would be more effective than salt as the bait attracts the slugs. Salt repels. Place the pots on plastic sheeting in a garage or carport, etc. Wet the plastic and scatter bait on the plastic. Check in the morning for emerged slugs. You may have to repeat the procedure several nights to get them all and of course, any eggs are not killed. (You could also place grapefruit or orange shells around the pots for the night then check in the morning)

Evlyn
I've got a lot of different size pots around here and keeping a correct water level would turn the job into several days of mess and a water soaked,Evlyn

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Sounds good, Marilyn.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
We've got those big old snails, escaped escargot, but the possums eat them.

Evlyn
1 Gallon of water--2--4 Tablespoons Pine-Sol.

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
That's a new one on me, Evlyn--is it tried and true--no damage to plants?

foxtail2
Evlyn, what would the Pine-sol kill or get rid of?

marylois (Topic in Session)
I dipped for slugs one year - wonder why it didn't kill me off! Since then, I spray what's in the GH with wettable powder diazinon, spray what's outside with the same, bring them in, scatter slug bait, and two weeks later set off two Combat water-based 'bombs'.

marilyninOttawa
Botrytis fungus spores float in the air. When a vulnerable plant part such as a bud, bloom or young leaf is stressed and especially when the dewpoint is high such that a thin film of moisture forms on the plant, spores can germinate and the fungus begins to grow. This is how you get unsightly spots. You can get the same condition arising in a greenhouse if air circulation is poor, humidity is high and nights are cool.

Evlyn
Sure makes those critters come out of the pot at about 50 miles and hour.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
My worst pest is ants, they carry mealybugs into the new growths. I keep my alcohol spray bottle handy.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Evlyn, my experience is if it doesn't hurt plants, it probably hurts something else, and that's good.

Jane5536 (Huntington L.I. N.Y.)
Sounds like military combat, Lois :)

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I've got some of those spots in one area, outdoors but usually humid-morning fogs.

marilyninOttawa
An important part of getting ready for winter is to clean the area before bringing plants into it. Be meticulous. Scrub and disinfect trays, etc. Many pests and disease organisms can over-summer in the trays and strike once new hosts are present.

marylois (Topic in Session)
It is. I only do that once a year. Other than that it's the 409/alcohol thing...unless scale turns up. ...including scrubbing algae off the pots. *BWG*....removing all 'paper' from pbs, staking, tying, ringing, whatever.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Yes, Marilyn - the clean up is the very first thing.

Evlyn
Those bombs are great. Upsets snakes, but won't bother Hummingbirds.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I check for scale, etc. 2-3x yearly, and treat.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Air movement seems to be one of the least discussed cultural factors and yet it is one of the most important. We used to have trouble with our Den Phals getting spots on the leaves even with the fans going 24 hrs/day. Then I moved them all outside under the trees and they look beautiful and are flowering better than they have in years.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Listened to good talk by Mare Ragan on how to grow more orchids than you have room for. His free secret: lots of air circulation.

marilyninOttawa
Good question Kathy. How to tell when a plant is dormant? If we think of orchids that drop their leaves before dormancy, Pleione for example, we might think that it is easy to define. However, Pleiones may not become truly dormant unless they have been properly conditioned to enter into a dormant metabolic state. I chill my Pleione plants to within a degree of freezing and know that the temperature has been reached by measuring the temperature with a thermometer. The leaves yellow and drop a few days later. Truly dormant Pleiones need only be kept dry and cool for several months until their biological clock signals them to awaken (no occasional misting is needed).

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Marilyn, in your printout you mentioned that plants should not be illuminated by indoor lights accidentally. That is difficult if the plants are in a living area. Can they stand minimum light some distance away?

sparkysteve ((Tonights Topic is )
Most of my winter plants have botyritis--I thought the flowers were supposed to have spots!

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
That's our secret too, Bert...but we're still out of room!

marilyninOttawa
It is more difficult to define dormancy in plants with which you have little experience. I learn through observation and that is what I recommend to you.

johngingarland
My method of greenhouse organization is to grow on rain gutters, 8' lining the walls. They're PVC and slightly elevated on one end to allow for drainage. I leave the middle of the greenhouse open. Less is more.

marylois (Topic in Session)
John - what size are your largest pots?

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
The Barkerias are plants which definitely go dormant, actually look like dead sticks. You don't want to water them then.

marylois (Topic in Session)
I have friends - in fact, three different orchid couples - who grow on upright wire 'fences' posts 10 to 12 ft tall (to roof wth 4 inch space wire - plants staggered so they don't drip onto one another -- surprising number of plants.

johngingarland
The largest is 12-inch - clay. I use 2 rain gutters deep. You'd be surprised how much weight they'll hold.

johngingarland
I thought Barkerias WERE dead sticks! Ha

marylois (Topic in Session)
That would work, John, in a greenhouse with straight walls...I'm limited by a 'quonset'.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
All my Barkerias have become truly dead sticks - Winter, Summer, whenever.

marilyninOttawa
Light supplementation. There are many ways to do this including artificial + natural or all artificial. I use wide spectrum fluorescent tubes. Some use high pressure sodium to supplement low natural light in greenhouse environments. A lot depends on what you grow and what quantity of light they require. Remember that blue light is needed for photomorphogenesis, that is maintaining plant form and keeping growth controlled (as provided by HP Mercury). Red light (as provided by HP Sodium) is implicated in staging of plant growth, onset of flowering. etc. Light is also needed for photosynthesis/food manufacture.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Pretty much so, John...except when they flowering !

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I think I had 1 once, it never woke up.

johngingarland
Marylois- it sounds like you're really challenged. By the way, OrchidSafari is really great! Thanks!

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
My problem is the phrags have outgrown their home and I will have to keep about 12 large phrags on a counter about 6 feet from a light on the left. Will they be influenced by the light?

marilyninOttawa
Temperature can be as important as light levels, Kathy. Watch that your day temps are high enough (for the Ascocendas). Low day temperature can cause some orchids to stop growing. When they stop growing, they stop taking up water and gradually wither.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Marilyn, what do you mean by 'maintaining plant form' ? Without blue light will a plant turn into an animal?

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
The only thing wrong with OrchidSafari is not on often enough.

johngingarland
I used to own a few live Barkerias, some of which I got from Mr. Hunt in Houston, ... anyone know him? Sorry, people but I must sign off for this evening. Thanks marylois, graphicgreg, and company - it has been a real pleasure. See you next time!

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Greg, I've killed over 10 Barkerias - enough dry sticks to build a cricket cage.

marilyninOttawa
It can be a challenge to keep Cymbidium spikes developing normally if we move them indoors to where it is too warm or where there is insufficient and/or unidirectional light. Keep the plants cool. Provide as bright a light as possible then keep the plants aligned to the light source. This is especially important if the plants are in a window. The plants grow year round so light is important. If not enough light can be provided then I suggest keeping the plants drier as this will control the rate of growth and prevent soft, floppy shoots.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Too bad, Bert. We have one that has survived for a few years.

marilyninOttawa
Plant dormancy and flower development are controlled by day length. These are two different processes although both can be mediated by day length.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
I was recently startled that someone advised low lite for miniature cymbidiums. Is this true?

marylois (Topic in Session)
I think they mean 'low' light as compared to the light required for standards, Bert.

marilyninOttawa
Some Cattleyas will only develop flower buds into flowers when day length triggers are satisfied, i.e., shortening or lengthening day. Red light is involved. Incandescent light artificially lengthening the day of a short-day orchid will prevent buds becoming blooms and/or prevent flowering in the appropriate season.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
I doubt that low light is good for mini cyms, when I moved our Golden Elf into the lower light display area buds started blasting.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Marilyn, that's a problem I cannot overcome - along with my bad water (hubby says RO when hell freezes over)...three neighbors have security lights.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I've been told that L anceps is triggered to bloom by low temp., true?

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
My warped Elf is in full sun - doesn't help.

marylois (Topic in Session)
...at least with the bad water, I can flush pots like mad and get by.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Bert - try dappled sun. Mine summers in the lath house.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Will try - nothing to lose.

marilyninOttawa
I do not recommend particular miticides as licencing of products varies with each state. It is best to enquire locally, in your state.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Not to rub it in, Bert - but I already had four spikes bloom...and expect I'll have another 3 or 4 after this six.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Marilyn, didn't the cut flower producers of yore have elaborate shading contraptions to ensure that their Cattleyas would be in bloom for Christmas and Easter?

marylois (Topic in Session)
And, Bert....good drainage and COPIOUS water...daily.

55SS (James in Fresno)
Are the miticides specifically for mites or are they designed to take care of a bunch of other stuff as well?

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
I've had two spikes on occasion, each with 1 flower.

marilyninOttawa
Sowbugs chew roots of fine-rooted orchids. They do not harm Cymbidiums BUT their chewing can open the way for virus transmission, etc.

marilyninOttawa
There are many ways to keep things out of pots. I keep my plants on shelves and the bases of the shelf supports are coated in Tanglefoot.

Evlyn

Many of them were Eileen Wilson. Just a short burst of light at night will trigger bloom.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Didn't know that, Marilyn. Tomorrow starting Jihad against local sowbugs.

marilyninOttawa
Greetings, John. Any comments about how you grow your orchids? We are discussing bringing them in for winter.

Evlyn
Please don't mix your chemicals.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Evlyn, why not?

marlyninOttawa
You really have "escar to go" Thamina? Do they damage they plants? I know that they eat plant material in Europe.

Evlyn
Use two separate sprayings. Many chemicals cannot be combined as they react with one another and make an uneffective compond or perhaps a toxic one.

marilyninOttawa
If you have ant problems, try getting rid of the ants using ant bait or by spraying ant trails with a contact pesticide recommended for ant control.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Here here, Evlyn, wise words. AND always wear protective clothing when spraying !

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
In truth that is a cannard. None of the common garden chemicals react with each other. I almost always spray with 3 at a time - been doing that for 29 years, So far only casualties are Golden Elf and some Barkerias.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
So. Cal. has just become infested with the giant or ash whitefly. All 4 of the hibiscus in my yard are full of it. I keep cutting back. Any danger to orchids? Yes, we have wild escargot, they like buds. I like to bounce them off the driveway. (Giant Whiteflies might attack certain thin-leaved orchids but I suspect that they are unlikely to bother all kinds. ML)

Evlyn
And bathe with lots of soap and hot water when finished and wash clothing separately and rinse twice.

marilyninOttawa
Air circulation is more than just fresh air. There is some evidence to suggest that plants benefit from being gently stimulated/moved.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Bert, you're lucky. John Odom has been spraying with 'cocktails' forever too and look at him ;-)

Evlyn
Clorox and Joy soap can produce a toxic gas. Is it phosgene (sp)?? [Not phosgene. ML]

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Gardeners divide into Chemophobes and Chemophiles. Make friends with your chemicals, all they want to do is help.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I hate to poison the snails as the possums in L.A. eat them. I've seen birds take them off leaves, smash them on driveway, and take to nest.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Chlorine most likely, Evlyn...that's what clorox and ammonia make.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
That's not fair - Chlorine is not your common garden chemical.

Evlyn
Chlorine is a green house chemical.

marilyninOttawa
If an orchid is susceptible to day length, and not all are, you should take care to ensure that it is not illuminated by any light source containing red light, outside the 'normal' day length for that time of year. This is important for any orchids that normally bloom with a shortening day such as winter-blooming Cattleyas, some Brazilian Miltonias, even some Paphs. Length of exposure is more critical than quantity of exposure. If you expect an orchid to bloom over winter, simply screen it from artificial sources during the evening. Another room, or a black cloth, can serve.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
The snails like to live in big stuff like Agapanthus or hibiscus, don't eat them. I don't have these near my orchid patio, I keep it clear around it.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
For what its worth, chlorine + ammonia give Nitrogen Trichloride, which is even more active than chlorine.

Evlyn
Speaking of Chlorine--has any else noticed the difference in Clorox brand bought at the grocery store and that bought at Sam's. I find Sam's is much stronger.

marilyninOttawa
Interesting idea, John. What kinds of orchid do you grow?

marilyninOttawa
Exactly, Greg.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Marilyn, on the converse, I remember reading in R. Northern about bringing seedlings to bloom quicker by extending the daylength to 16 hrs year round. I had some success with the treatment in another life.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Swimming pool strength chlorine is twice as strong as Chlorox - 20% vs 10%.

Evlyn
Where can I get swimming pool strength?

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Down here, in swimming pool stores.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
Home Depot has swimming pool chlorine also, try there Evlyn

marilyninOttawa
A friend grows many of her Phrags (really beautiful specimen plants) on a kitchen counter. They ae challenged for cooking room! Anyway, these plants do not seem to be affected by day length, real or artificial.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Well folks, we haven't seen picture one tonight so I'd like to show off a Belizean beauty before heading on out, Maxillaria ringens>

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
Thank you, Marilyn, my phrags should do fine then.

marylois (Topic in Session)
How much light should phrags have? In a sunny or shady part of a greenhouse???

marilyninOttawa
Phrags get by with low light (500-1500 foot candles). In the West Indies, we grow Cymbidium canaliculatum quite successfully in tree crotches with about 50% shade.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Thanks, Marilyn - was afraid I had them too dark keeping them as close as possible to the cool wall.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Oh, I have a Cym. canaliculatum that now blooms well each year for me. I almost showed it this year but the rain ruined it at the last minute. It is one that Mrs. Menninger got in Australia and I found it at the place that was selling her collection It is var. sparksii.

marilyninOttawa
Bert. Without blue light, a plant will become etoliated, stringy or strung out as you prefer *G*. Blue light is the part of the spectrum that influences plant form.

marilyninOttawa
All of my miniature cymbids are grown in full sun all summer. They are placed in a south facing window for winter although they would do better with all round light. They will bloom mostly between now and December.

marylois (Topic in Session)
All: remember full sun in Canada and full sun in Louisiana/Florida are two different critters.

Ellen,Smithtown,NewYork
I grow them in full sun in New York also.

marilyninOttawa
If you are meaning light spill, Lois, then the only way around the problem is to grow day neutral orchids. Fortunately, many orchids are day neutral. All those which bloom in your collection now presumably are not affected by the situation.

marylois(Topic in Session)
Re slugs: Eric recommends a slug bait called 'Escar Go'...Subject: Re: Escar-Go References: [199807011053.FAA28947@neon.prysm.net] X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3 From: ericm18@juno.com (Eric M Muehlbauer) Yes- Garden's Alive is at 5100 Schenley Pl, Lawrenceberg In 47025 812-537-8650

marilyninOttawa
I do not have a certain answer about L. anceps blooming trigger(s).

marilyninOttawa
Yes, Greg, and even today, many commercial greenhouses produce Mums and other flower crops by screening the plants to artificially control the day length. As little as a few seconds of low light (red or incandescent) exposure during a night is sufficient to prevent bloom in a susceptible plant.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Ok, I won't try refrigerating the one that puts up a spike in July and blooms in Jan.

marylois (Topic in Session)
It seems my Brs. Edvah Loo is ambivelent to the security lights.

marilyninOttawa
Miticides kill eight-legged creatures including mites, spiders, etc. Some insecticides are also miticides but not all are effective.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
Golly gee, I sure am getting posts weird tonight...I asked that question ages ago Marilyn.
[NOTE: Yes, there was considerable time delay in posts getting to and from our guest speaker this evening...mlg]

marylois (Topic in Session)
That's a pretty little thing, Greg - if I see one, I'll sure buy it!

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Down here Orthene sold as fire anticide, so I guess it would be active against other kinds of ants, like the ones that live in orchid pots.

gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
I see that Andy is here but lurking, wanted to say Hi before I say goodnight. Have a great week.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
The wettable powder Orthene?

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Yes, JC

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I thought so as the liquid variety is supposed to be bad for orchids.

marylois (Topic in Session)
I've never seen wettable powder Orthene...where do you get it?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)

I do not know Lois, I have only heard about it.

Evlyn
I use Orthonex liquid.

marilyninOttawa
I do not have any info on the giant whitefly but can look it up and get back to you. Whitefly will attach to some orchids. Usually the leaves of thin-leaved orchids such as those of Cypripedium reginae are susceptible. I expect that Disa leaves could be a target among others. Given you have the pest in your garden, examine all your orchids carefully, especially the older leaves of thin-leaved orchids, Spathoglottis, Bletia, etc. If you see any pests, let us know. (The beard of waxy 'hairs' will be unmistakeable ML)

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
We NEVER use the EC of Orthene, only the WP...OFE has it. No spreader sticker when using on flowers for thrips.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Andy - your beautiful FCC plant was shown nicely in September Orchids Page 911 C. Brabantiae 'Spotted Flamingo'.

Andy NVA
Thanks, John. Could have been a bigger picture don't you think? hehehe

marylois (Topic in Session)
CONGRATULATIONS, ANDY!

Andy NVA
Thanks, Lois :) *Blush*

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
It's the oil. But I think you've confused Malathion, which comes in both forms, with Orthene, which is usually soluble dry powder. They are related chemically. For orchids, water-based Orthene is safer.

marylois (Topic in Session)
Thanks, Greg - I'll have to order some. That's the main reason I use the diazinon cause I had a BIG bag of wettable powder type.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Orthene not merely wettable but actually truly soluble in water. It's sold at almost all garden supply stores.

sparkysteve
Greg--you were talking about orthene? I use the liquid--many other people I know use the orthene for ants

marilyninOttawa
Growing orchids to blooming size under a longer day regime is different from getting mature orchids to flower.

graphicgreg (still hot in West Palm Beach)
I suppose that the EC formulations can be used on orchids but it is the carriers that are phototropic and can cause the damage, not the chemical itself. Especially in high heat and to thin leaved orchids.

BCPRESS (Bert in Miami)
Can't get an better than water, Greg, that's what rain is made out of.

marilyninOttawa
Time to call it a night. This has been a busy and enjoyable session.. We also have generated 3 possible topics for future consideration. Next month we will be examining what critters live with our orchids, if we let them! Good night and thank you for your discussion. It was great!

marylois (Topic in Session)
Marilyn - YOU are great! Thank you. Great evening.

Andy NVA
Great talk tonight.!

sparkysteve
Yes--it was a good night! and all the thanks go to you Marilyn!!!!