OrchidSafari ARCHIVES*

Present were: 22

marilyninOttawa
Bob. I thoroughly enjoyed your pre-chat material. Very comprehensive! !

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Hi folks. Thanks, Marilyn.

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
Bob, I really do like the latest additions to your website and have found lots of helpful info.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Thanks, Janette, I wish I had more time to work on it.

digorchids (doug in Houston)
Hi, Bob - where's the new Cribb book published, anyway?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Timber Press, Doug?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
It's published by Natural History Publications in Borneo.

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
Borneo?? Do you think some of the larger bookstores here will carry it?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
I'm sure it will be available soon from all the usual outlets (Cribbs Book). [The AOS has said it will be on the Spring booklist, I've contacted other booksellers to see when they will have it available. --RW]

yoshiko2 (in Ann Arbor, MI)
Hi Bob, I have been reading all your material with great interest.

marilyninOttawa
I would be interested in knowing what media you use for germination Bob? Do you replate on a different formulation? Have you found that there is a differential between Brachys and others, for example, as to the germination medium that works best?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Marilyn, we use two different media for germination, both are made up 'from scratch' here. The only breakdown is between Parvis and everything else.

marilyninOttawa
Thanks, Bob. I know that there are differences between Cyp media requirements and suspected it might be somewhat the same within the Paphs.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
BOB - I have to tell you that you helped me immediately with the printout that you sent out to all of us (or told us where to find it!). I needed to know when to cut 2 paph pods that were 9 1/2 months old. One has another spike 1/2 up and the other began to look a little more yellow so I cut both today!!

jim4eq (Miami )
Quick question then, Bob, I gotta leave soon. In the mail out, you said use fungicide good for Pythium/Phytopathora, what is a good one??

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Like most people I'm careful about recommending fungicides because everyone's conditions are different, but we use Subdue and a new product on the market called Medallion.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Bob - do those fungicides work like Physan 20? Which I am familiar with.

BTague (Barbara from raining N. Ca.)
Bob, we can't get Subdue here in Calif. I wonder if the Medallion is all right. [The older formulations of Subdue (2E) contained a xylene carrier, and caused extra concern over the introduction of this into the environment. The newer (MAXX) formulations do no use this carrier. Perhaps they are available more widely, I don't know. --RW]

digorchids (doug in Houston)
I'm going to test 'Root Shield' on some plants which have proven susceptible to root rot in the past. Anyone using the product?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
John, as far as I know Physan is contact only, good for reducing pathogen populations. Subdue has systemic characteristics.[Medallion is generally used as a drench, is not listed as systemic but apparently there is some transport in the plant. --RW]

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Systemic properties would be great.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
As I said, if you can maintain really consistently good conditions, there probably is no need [to use these products --RW]. As we've grown in size, we can't do everything as well as we like and start to need crutches.

yoshiko2 (in Ann Arbor, MI)
Are all those chemicals mentioned before good for root rot as well?
[That is why they are used--RW].

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
Bob, I noticed in your paper you said that plants right out of flask are kept at a pretty constant temp of between 72 and 75 degrees. How long do you try to keep the plants in this environment before putting them into the regular greenhouse?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Actually even warmer, Janette. But this is one of the conditions we compromise on, as we have no choice. We are in the process of installing hot water on the bench tops for compots right now. But to answer more directly, I would keep them at that temp or warmer until blooming size if I could.
[The bench heating system is now in place and working for the compot benches, with 130F water circulating directly under the compots.--RW]

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Why, Bob - quicker growth?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
John, much quicker growth and very little or no loss from fungal [and bacterial] infections.
[In our climate it is difficult, read that expensive, to heat the greenhouses above 62-64F in the winter. That means every night and most of our cloudy days that is as warm as our plants get. That is fine for adult plants, they do very well and flower wonderfully under these conditions, but seedlings, and especially compots just sit still under these conditions for about five months, and they dry out very slowly after watering making them very prone to root rots. With putting the heat right on the benches, we can keep the pots and seedlings much warmer without heating the mass of air over them any warmer.--RW]

tazman954
Bob, I have just received a couple of flasks (and am waiting on a couple from you). I have a 400W Metal Halide in my orchid room(14' x12'). Is there any rule for the distance from this lighting?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Our experience is that you are going to want to get them way, let me emphasize way, off to the side initially. Shoot for no more than 600-800 footcandles to start. Then you can bring them up slowly.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Janette, we have been starting them under the benches in a greenhouse that has 80% shade. We've now built PVC pipe supports over the compot benches so that we can add more shade initially, and don't have to go under the bench.

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
With your under bench heating system, will the heat source be closer to the benches where there will be compots or will it be standard through the gh?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I did find that my small seedlings right out of the flask did better when I put them in an old aquarium with a loose glass lid. I kept them there for a while but I don't remember how long!

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Back to the light, if you've been in a flask room you realize that the plants don't get a heck of a lot in flask, and we've seen them burned right up in the summer in the greenhouse. It only takes a few weeks to bring them up to higher levels.

marilyninOttawa
I guess that you could run a heating cable in a sand/gravel bed and lay the pots/trays on that. What do think Bob, for a smaller set-up, that is?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Marilyn, That would work well, I think. We experimented with 'electric heat' last year but at our rates it was too expensive.
[Our rates depend on time of day, but range from a reasonable $0.06/KWH to $0.21/KWH. The "hydronic" system I have set up is relatively inexpensive to create, it cost about $1200 in parts to heat about 1100 sq ft of bench. The base cost for a smaller space would be about $650.--RW]

Janette, the trays are sitting right on the water pipes. Each bench has six separate feeds to keep the temps even. I'm hoping to keep the root zone much warmer than the greenhouse air.

digorchids (doug in Houston)
John, did you use a small muffin fan for air circ in fish tank?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
No Doug, I didn't use anything but the glass on top wasn't completely over the entire top and I removed it frequently for a few minutes .

tazman954
I notice you are really into downsizing the multiflorals. In your article you make mention of the pros and cons of certain multiflorals in hybridizing. Are you attempting hybrids with some of the odd ones like supardii?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
We've not done much with Paph. supardii. The kind of funky petals seem to relegate it to novelty status it seems, although the cross with Paph. sanderianum is quite nice. [We have also crossed it with philippinense as I recall.--RW]

tazman954
I had a commercial paph grower help me do my first compot today. He made it look a lot easier than it was.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Like anything else, its [compotting] quite simple and fast when you are confident in what you are doing.

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
I was also interested in your comments about the 5x5 trays. I bought some at EOC last year but didn't use them until I ran out of regular pots. The plants that I put in there have done much better than I ever thought they would. Any thoughts on why?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Janette, probably because you are doing a good job! I really like them, and used them in growing compots under lights with great success, and in the summer in the greenhouse. We only ran into problems with them in the greenhouse in the winter, they'd stay wet too long. I expect we'll go back to them for everything with the new heating system. I expect they'll dry out evenly and fairly quickly with the heat right under them.

tazman954
Are you attempting or planning on attempting any flasks with tetraploid parents, especially where both parents are tetraploidal? And are you looking at any of the 'Eric Young' Phrags?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Everything that we are producing in Phrags now is being colchicine treated, except where we are trying to express recessive traits [for example yellow forms]. And yes, we have a fair number of tetraploid breeding stock maturing.

tazman954
But it really does a number on plants if you are wanting their 'best' traits to come out. The ones you don't burn with it anyway.
[Unless those traits are heterozygous and recessive, then it decreases the number of progeny expressing that trait dramatically--RW].

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
Also learned a new way to break a flask from reading your article. :-) Glass slivers have always been a problem when you have to break flasks.

jim4eq (Miami )
I use a glasscutter to score the flask, then tap it. Leftover from college stained glass class. No slivers. Only costs a couple bucks at a craft store

digorchids (doug in Houston)
Bob, what conversion rates come out of your colchicine treating?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Haven't checked rates (conversion) yet, it's too soon.

tazman954 (Tonyin NC)
The compots I have now are under a 'grow dome'. I leave the slot barely open for air circulation. Do I need to continue to mist the plants as they dry out? My humidity gauge in my grow room says I run between 60-70% humidity. Is this enough/too much for the compots? How about the mature plants?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
I would think that 60 - 70% is sufficient humidity to do well. The domes make me nervous, I like air movement.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Bob - when you send out a flask, are the seedlings ready to be potted up?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
It's the only way John. They have to be big enough in case they get jumbled. Customs agents like to open boxes from the bottom, and then end up putting the flasks back in the opposite way the areas say up!

Evlyn
How often do you use the fungicides and what seasons, and how do you alternate?

tazman954
I wouldn't use fungicides except on an as needed basis. Resistance build up is a real danger. If we all use fungicides we re going to develop highly resistance fungi. But I have used banner and subdue on my fruit trees IF they need it.

Scott Mcphee (scott in moist N. Calif)
How does one know if a plant has been converted into a tetraploid by the colchicine?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
The only certain way is to karyotpe the plant. You basically take an actively growing root tip (actually you usually take several) and fix it, and prepare a cell squash, stain and count chromosomes.

digorchids (doug in Houston)
Under a powerful microscope, of course...

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
There is some correlation between the size of guard cells and ploidy, but you cannot absolutely establish ploidy level this way.

Scott Mcphee (scott in moist N. Calif)
So, if you are buying a plant that claims to be 4n, you are taking the dealer on their word.

uncleearl (Earl from Vacaville, CA)
Having done chromosome counts (grad school), I don't envy you the task.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
If it is bred from two confirmed 4N plants, then you should be okay, but yes you are taking their word.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Bob - do you find that the converted 4N plants grow slower than the 2N plants?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Unfortunately, with the release of the 4N plants, there is a lot of 4N to 2N breeding going on. Triploids are usually very nice flowers, but breeding dead ends and this is not always made clear.
[I have no problem with the creation of these plants, but feel that the fact that they are 3N and probably infertile is not always made clear to the buyer --RW].

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Don't some triploids breed a little?

tazman954
Bob, Are you doing any colchicine treating yourself?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
John, in Phrags where we have some experience, I would say if they do [grow slower] it's negligible. I don't see a difference.

uncleearl (Earl from Vacaville, CA)
Triploids are not always deadends. There are several I know of which are outstanding parents.

digorchids (doug in Houston)
So triploids are the 'mules' of orchids?

jim4eq (Miami )
taz, treating himself with colchicine?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Some [triploids] do, some even breed decently, but they are the exceptions.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
That is great to know as in Catts 4N plants tend to grow slower - at least they did when I grew them!!! LOL

tazman954
Bob, Do you know what is the total market for orchids? paphs alone?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Have no idea what the total market is for either.

Evlyn
Bob will you tell us how you use fungicides.Seasonal, rotate etc.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
I use them on compots and small seedlings on a rotational basis [changing the class of fungicide each application, not just brand name --RW], on larger plants they are not used in a regular program.

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
Do you try to remove all of the agar from the roots of plants out of flasks? Do you feel that leaving it on there will chance bacterial/fungal rot?

tazman954
I just want to say I use your web page A LOT! I hope you continue to expand the cultural section. I think you have the best orchid page right now. And I have spent many, many hours scanning the net for all of them

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I pot Catts from flask and read that it was okay to leave agar on the roots.

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
I have read arguments for both ways, Thamina. Sometimes it is easier to remove than others. Brachys especially seem to want to hold onto the agar.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
We wash all the agar off. It may be okay to leave it, but I think its just another potential problem area, and I don't see too much to be gained from it. That's to be gained from leaving it on.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Leaving a bit of agar on is easier the spraying all the little plants in a colander and sorting out onto a paper towel.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
The agar is not a problem to remove with a good stream of running water. We deflask 80 - 100 flasks each week and the time put into it isn't that great, and washing agar is a very small part. But, whatever works for each person is the best way as far as I'm concerned.

digorchids (doug in Houston)
Bob, after washing the deflasked plants, do you steep in anything like a fungicide/Superthrive solution before compotting?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Doug, we use a dip in a solution of weak high phosphorus fertilizer and a vitamin solution. They get a systemic fungicide treatment in compot a few days later.

KB Barrett
Bob, on your handout you showed pictures of 2 paphs from the same cross, yet they were radically different. Which of the 2 were you shooting for?
[picture vs picture]

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
The expectation was actually for neither, but closer to the concolor 'raspberry vini'. In retrospect the production of some pinks makes sense from the cross.

JanetteH ((In the foothills of NC))
Another one of life's little surprises in plant breeding. :-)

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Back to the Mad Wine cross, the real surprise was the shade of color, and its uniformity in the dark plants. It is quite unlike anything we had seen in Paphs, but is hard to reproduce in a photo.

marylois
I prefer the one with the 'halo' and spots.

digorchids (doug in Houston)
Out of curiosity, what were the parents of Mad Wine?

Evlyn
I think they are both wonderful.

KB Barrett
I was more impressed by the change in the postilion and conformation of the petals, they seem such different plants all together.

marylois
Of course - but don'tcha like the spots a tad better? *G*

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Mad Wine is JoAnne's Wine x Madela.

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
I'm partial to good pink flowers, second only to yellow flowers myself. Petal positioning is quite variable throughout the cross, not too unexpected with the particular parents, one being very horizontal and the other more downswept.

tazman954
I do too. I just purchased 'Peppermint this weekend with one awarded parent. It is a two growth pant and already has a nice size flower.

Evlyn
I just wish I could bloom them!

tazman954
Bloom what Evlyn?

Evlyn
Paphs-- Taz

jim4eq (Miami )
Evlyn,I bought 8 and have 3 sickly ones left, keeping them alive would be nice, blooms would be heaven!! Oh well, I'll get out of this apartment and balcony soon.

clareinla
A question from the novice. It's been my limited experience that Pot. catts (reds) are difficult for me. Does Paph. colors have anything to do with the difficulty in blooming?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
I really don't think there's any special correlation with color and blooming [in Paphs]. There are certain combinations between sections that can cause reluctance, but that for another night perhaps.

tazman954
Is it common for 'Hanne Popow to spike with two inflorescence at once?

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Not if you've got two mature growths. If you've got what looks like two spikes in one growth, it usually turns out that one of the spikes is an ovary branching off the inflorescence down in the leaves. I've only seen two instances of two 'real' inflorescences from a single growth in a Paph.

tazman954
An ovary branching off! When will the spike stop? This is the Phrag, Hanne Popow, but it would be the same?

Sym :
I just got a Paph. First Touch (sanderianum x victoria-regina var. kalinea. Can anyone give me any advice about it?
[Medium light, keep mix fresh and airy, keep it somewhat underpotted-- RW].

KB Barrett
Send it to me! [Just kidding! -KB]

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
I've got to get going also, enjoyed visiting.

KB Barrett
Thank you, Bob !

marylois
Thanks, Bob...enjoyable. Let's talk about the next one. *S*

Evlyn
Thanks, Bob--please come back soon!

RCW-upstateNY (Bob in Candor)
Good night all (the Hanne Popow should give you 6-8 flowers sequentially).

tazman954
No, Bob. Don't go. Shane! come back Shane!

-- Exit, stage left.

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