OrchidSafari ARCHIVES*

Information about Liebig's Law was forwarded to me from Dr. David Grove. Certainly some of you have come across this before. First, there are 6 factors that affect plant growth and yield; they are: air water light temperature soil or media nutrients. Liebig's Law of Limiting Factors states the most deficient factor limits plant growth and increasing the supply of non-limiting factors will not increase plant growth. Only by increasing most deficient factor will the plant growth increase. There is also an optimum combination of the factors and increasing them, individually or in various combinations, can lead to toxicity for the plant.

Considerable feedback has been received regarding my fertilizer. Most of it is positive but, every once in a while, there is a negative or neutral response; usually the person responding claims he is an expert grower. Some people expect miracles after one application. One was willing to test the fertilizer for a year even though the results were no better than the previous fertilizer he was using. After a couple of years in the business I have concluded that it is not the fault of the fertilizer but rather the other factors that influence plant growth.

Wouldn't it be worthwhile to discuss why an OS grower does particularly well with a plant in one section of the country, or world, while others are having difficulties.

We all know that taking a plant from its native habitat and transporting it to your greenhouse or other environment will affect the growth. But some of the 6 factors may have more influence than others. For example, the relative humidity in my greenhouse is low and the humidifier is used infrequently only to lower the temperature. Some plants such as the Catts, Den., and
others do well. Everyone I have met suggests under-potting Den. and placing them in a high humidity location. Why is it that my Den. do so well when they are over-potted and in a low humidity environment? Please note that there is nothing like an ideal environment for growing plants but the hobbyist rarely has these conditions. I have witnessed nearly ideal conditions during several visits to Terry Root's nursery named The Orchid Zone. The greenhouses are computer-controlled and halide lights are turned on for two hours during the short winter days. To see pictures of a well-run nursery, take a look at http://www.theorchidzone.com.

If you grow a particular plant successfully, what are your conditions? Of the 6 factors which ones do you consider most important, or least important?

kbbarrett
Yes let's chat about limiting factors! I never knew there actually was a fellow who stated it as a 'law'.

foxtail2
Sparky, which factor do find most important in S. FL?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Are you asking me??? LOL!!!!!!!! Next time I get an award it will have the clonal name 'benign neglect'.

JR000
Kathy- you visited my g/h today. Did you think the conditions were much different than other locations you have previously visited?

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
I just had a Lc. Mem. Maggie Hood Summit put up a growth I thought would have a sheath instead got a bifoliate leaf. Is this to poor growing conditions or maybe in genes?

kbbarrett
Jerry, yes the conditions are drier and more bright than others. And by extension it is warmer inside.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
I've long thought my Catts were limited by insufficient light. So I bought em a H.I.D. last year. Now standing by for results!

JR000
Art - I always get a number of blind sheaths. And others have mentioned this problem. I don't know why. Does anyone have an explanation?

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Do you grow in GH, Susan?

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Jerry, your GH looks great, compared to my GH, which is much cooler and more humid.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I think that light is an important factor now that my neighbors tree is shading my greenhouse until about noon!!! I have really noticed a difference. The pruning saw will be taken out of storage again soon!!!

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
I've had several browning sheaths that when opened are already rotted inside...dark weather????

JR000
Susan - if you have been using additional light for a few months you should have seen some difference. Can you comment?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Barbara - temperature differences could be because different people grow different genera and some like it cooler.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Art. No greenhouse. I have a sunporch for my plants.

JR000
Lois - whenever I see a brown sheath it is split immediately. Frequently the bud is still green.

kbbarrett
Susan, I can comment as to light. You should really see an improvement! I always thought light was the major limiting factor as far as growing indoors. Second was the inability to keep humidity. The only thing indoor growers have over GH growers is the easily controled temps [in terms of fluctuations --KB] and lack of bugs/pests!!

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Yes Jerry. Splitting a sheath can save the buds. I have always done that if it begins to turn brown.

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
True, John, you should see Jerry's GH, it is bright and hot. But all his plants love it. Catt, Vanda, Paph, and all.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
I split a sheath this summer water got in and rotted bud. How much do you split?

UncleEarl (Earl in VAcaville, CA)
Re: the blind sheaths, there is no one answer, in my opinion. Genetics, culture both play a role. Different for different hybrids, and even clones within the grex.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Me too - soon as they yellow - but loss has been greater this season.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Jerry, This year my L.anceps bloomed with flower stems about 20 inches long. Before the light, They would be ridiculously long. One bloom stem was 6 feet!!!!!!

JR000
I used to grow a few orchids on the patio. Even with a good breeze and sun until noon, the orchids did not grow anything like in the greenhouse.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Art - I take it off completely.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Speaking of breezes - here is a comment sent by Sysser:
"Just a little quip from Sysser, Cape Town, South Africa:
The most important of them all is good air circulation at all costs. I myself thrive poorly in a bad ventilated room. Besides ventilating the growing area, I even make more holes in the bottom of the pots and quite a few long slits alongside the pots as my pet-hate has always been rot. Growing in wooden or wire baskets also helps. As medium I am becoming more and more attracted to the use of NZ spagnum moss, especially in smaller pots, as the moss allows a good air flow.
Grow well all,
Sysser
Happy New Year! Hugs! Greetings from Scarborough, Cape Town, South Africa"

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Kathy, My sunporch has a drain. I can go wild with the mist nozzel.

kbbarrett
Lois, it may be due to the darkness of the year and also how incredibly wet its been in your general vicinity, hard to get stuff to dry out.

JR000
Art- I split the sheath all the way down since water can get in the bottom and cause rot.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Art - I always split it down as far as I can. Then water can't collect around the buds BUT you do have to watch the emerging stem as it may be too weak and you may have to stake it very soon.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Right, Kathy - has been several weeks to get fertilizer on...couldn't get two sunny days in a row until yesterday. The babies have been fed!

kbbarrett
Susan, Good work!!! You should have blooms in no time. I'll bet you can even do an ascoscenda or two!!

cattleya1 (Ursula in disguise)
I grow everything pretty much together. Have open sides and at first put in a clear fiberglass roof. After some years and increasing mortality, ripped the fiber and put 50% shade cloth. this has greatly improved matters for cattleyas (especially species) and vandas, but the phals don't grow, seems have insufficient air. Now need a fan, and was told to use the innards of an old airconditioner. My g/h is 12 x 18 ft.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Thanks, I'll do that next time.

kbbarrett
Jerry mentioned a good temperature drop (day/night) is also an often overlooked requirement.

JR000
I think the my tempterature differential of sometimes 50 degrees helps air exchange for the roots.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I just remembered that some people here used to notch the bottom of the sheath so the water could get out and it still could hold the starting stem upright.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
At about the same time as I got the H.I.D., I also made some other changes.(Potted nearly everything in slatted baskets, got more serious about humidity). Makes it hard to figure out causes and effects. Overall, my Catts look great. (They have roots now!)

jim4eq (Miami is chilly)
In Miami, we don't have 50 degree difference over the entire year.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Nor did we in Hawaii, at least where I was.

JR000
My temperature differential is rather high, but there seems to be no growing effects.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Temp change is also difficult here. You have to keep temp up around 60 at night...and on cold days, again it's 60. Same thing in heat of summer -- stays around 85-90 day and night in there.

cattleya1 (Ursula in disguise)
Some catt species bloom in dry sheaths: C. mossiae

MiamiBert
Jerry, what does temperature drop have to do with root airation?

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Nice, ML. Obviously, you have found the right combo.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Do I want to keep fans going even at night? Temps down about 50, I thought might be too cool. [I vote "yes" - keep them on. Have been trying to get hubby to let me leave cool cell on all night - then I'd get a summer differential!...mlg]

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
You are right, Ursula - I never take off a species sheath.

JR000
But in HI many orchids are in their natural environment--can't improve over those conditions.

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
In my GH, I don't have 50 degree difference, but 25 to 35 degree is the daily changes. Which made my Phal and Paph happy.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Art I have 3 fans that go 24 hours a day in the Greenhouse and have done so for over 30 years.

MiamiBert
I thought there were no native orchids in HI???

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
There are 3, though they are not impressive horticulturally, Bert. But almost any habitat you might want can be found there.

JR000
Bert - the higher temperature diffential, the larger change in the volume of air exchange. v=kT providing the pressure is constant.

kbbarrett
Susan, I'm happy you got the additional slats on the pots. Again I think it's overlooked. For myself, I am going to repot everything in a medium bark when I repot this year, to allow for more air to the roots. I had been using a fine bark [when I grew indoors under lights --KB] to trap more humidity at the roots, but sometimes rotted them instead. As AJ Hicks says, grow good roots and blooms will follow!

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
I have NO trouble keeping a temperature differential, even summer nights are cool at my high elevation.

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Art, yes, the fans going 24 hours a day, I have 7 fans in my GH to be exact.

JR000
Bert- you have me there. People have said the orchids grow so well I thought some of them were native. Thank you.

MiamiBert
The higher the temperature, the greater gas diffusion - but differential doesn't affect air movement.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Barb - I have exactly seven as well! Five go all the time, the other two cut in at higher temps or are turned up to help dry out in winter.

JR000
Barbara - I use medium bark for plants with larger roots and fine bark for smaller roots. It works well here.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Yep, I'm a hopeless overwaterer. Slats help. I use inverted net pots inside those few that are still in pots.

JR000
Bert- there is also the expansion factor as air heats and cools.

MiamiBert
I don't mean to say temp differential unimportant; plant may be programmed to expect one.

jim4eq (Miami is chilly)
Same here, Jerry, except for my equitants which have fine roots and coarse charcoal/aliflor.

kbbarrett
Jerry, I have a tendency to rot my Catt roots in the fine bark. The oncs are doing fine, the catts are just eh. So I'm going to change... really I am. No, Really!

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Re water...do it only when needed, then use COPIOUS amounts, I believe plants are better off. I pour it through the slotted pots...and if I didn't, I'd not keep things alive with my poor river water.

JR000
Before using my fertilizer, I used to get a lot of unhealthy decomposition of the fir bark at the bottom of the pot. But no longer. Kathy - I should have removed a plant from the pot so you could see the solid healthy root mass.

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Jim, the equitants I brought back from HI, they are all in clay pots with a few rocks in it, nothing else, they are blooming like crazy in my gh, since I left them in the some pot and rocks.

jim4eq (Miami is chilly)
Right Barb, the only real use they have for media is to hold em in.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Re equitants - I've put compots of plants on 2 x 3 inch pieces of cork tiling material using nylon fishline...when they grow up and need a bit more moisture than I can provide by just watering, I just sit the plant, cork and all in a 3 inch pot - holds moisture a big longer...works fine in my high humidity climate.

JR000
Also with Vandas, that Kathy and Barbara saw, they are potted in medium fir bark and there is an extensive root system both inside and outside the pot.

kbbarrett
Lois, re watering, I think we have to be more careful of top watering. Leads to leaf spots and rot. Its really easy to do - as I'm finding out in the GH - but I think its a dangerous habit. IMHO.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Here in So Cal, Jerry, I think that the Vandas would need something in the pot or basket as we are SO dry most of the time.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
I top water - like the clean leaves! Just need to water early on an non-overcast day and plenty of air movement to dry them out...even then, I hand dry all phals with paper toweling.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Yes, Lois. Paphs tend to rot very easily so drying them is important also. I know from experience!! LOL

andynva
Cork floor tiling, Lois? Explain, I'm not a handy man.

JR000
John - even though relative humidity in my g/h is very low the flower stems are covered with tiny sugar droplets.

kbbarrett
Lois, I agree! But I'd love to see you wiping the phals off! Brawny in the jumbo size?? More phals/towel?

MiamiBert
How do fanatics feeding 1/4 tsp/gal 20/20/20 square with Liebig? Any comments?

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Lois, I water them and turn up the heater, it works.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Maybe it's not for floors - but those 10 inch square pieces of cork 'tiling'...less than a quarter inch thick. Those tiny roots LOVED getting in those cracks.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I believe Jerry that means the plants are very happy so who cares if all the rules aren't followed. The results are all that matters!!

jim4eq (Miami is chilly)
Lois, it's for walls. Unless you want to redo your floor every few weeks from wear

kbbarrett
Bert - after careful consideration and much experience (yeah, right) I've come to the conclusion that most plants are loved to death. That you really can get by with fertilizing monthly. That these plants are heartier than you think.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Your plants are just so full of life, Jerry, they have to exude sugar!

JR000
I used to remove the water from the center of the Phals. Now I don't and haven't lost any yet. However there is a lot of air movement at ground level from the swamp cooler.

peeteilis (KKold in KKKY)
County agents used to prove Liebig by writing N , P, K on the pasture. The one which showed the greatest growth was the limiting factor. Should we do comparative growing using a type of orchid we all do well?

jim4eq (Miami is chilly)
Re fertilizer: After all, how often does that bird *really* go potty on that tree?

MiamiBert
But plants are 1% dry weight Potassium; it's gotta come from somewheres!

kbbarrett
Exactly ,Jim!

kbbarrett
Maybe they recycle.?

JR000
Lois - my plants want to live so they had better please me.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
That is my philosophy EXACTLY, Jerry!!

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Would be scientifically correct, Tom, but most of us don't have the 'comparative' space...though I do put orchids in different light situations within the greenhouse when I have multiple pots of one orchid.

peeteilis (KKold in KKKY)
Jim, every time a bird flies from a limb it poops to reduce the load. And monkeys, dead isects, etc. the load is bountiful. But the orchid doesn't use it directly.

JR000
Bert - but the dry weight is quite small.

jim4eq (Miami is chilly)
Monkeys eat bananas, climb trees, ... voila! potassium.

MiamiBert
In point of fact, I should have said 1% WET weight Potassium!

peeteilis (KKold in KKKY)
I believe you will find that when you are 'feeding orchids,' you are really feeding the fungus which digests and moves the food into the orchid.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Not in culture, peete.

JR000
Bert- not such a small amount of K.

MiamiBert
Jim, what part of Miami do you live in? No monkeys in my part.

peeteilis (KKold in KKKY)
What do you mean, Earl? The fungus is in the mature orchid roots.

MiamiBert
Bananas, yes but no monkeys.

cattleya1 (Ursula in disguise)
Bananas don't jump

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
In culture, the fungus plays almost no part in the nutrition of the plant. In nature, it digests the raw material to provide sugars, nitrates, etc. Not needed in culture, so they are generally overrun by the orchid.

MiamiBert
The successful commercial growers in Miami use 1 Tbl/gal 20/20/20. Do you suppose they're on to something?

jim4eq (Miami is chilly)
Actually, my nanners are in the bottle form (liquid fertilizer, not banana liquer)

JR000
Someone tried to convince me it was the fungus that supplied the nutrients but sometimes the results, such as increased fragrance, take place within an hour and that seems rapid to me. A grower in FL mentioned that he noticed increased fragrance within an hour after fertilizing.

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC where we are having a Holiday on Ice)
Selling orchids, Bert.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Yeah, Bert. Something that works for them under their conditions.

peeteilis (KKold in KKKY)
Earl, why not needed? We feed elementals, potash, nitrogen, potassium, not organics. The fungus works as a the fungus part of lichen does, , doesn't it?

kbbarrett
Bert, Dr Wang recommends 200ppm N for his Phals, gets great results with it. I'd say his on the same wavelength as the Miami growers.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Too complex for here, peete. The fungi's function is to break down the organics: no organics, no need for the fungus.

MiamiBert
The fungus among us?

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
LOL@Bert

peeteilis (KKold in KKKY)
Ok, Earl, but I will go on feeding the fungus. It is present in the roots, so why not?

[To figure out a fertilizer ratio, multiply the N per centage by 75 to get the guide number for that fertilizer. In a 20-10-15 formulation, the N figure (20%) X 75 = 15. (.20 X 75 = 15). If you want 200 PPM N in the solution, divide 200 by 15 to get 13.3 ounces of the 20-10-15 per 100 gallons of water = a 200 PPM N feed rate. You may, of course, break that down to smaller quantities such as 1.3 ounces of 20-10-15 will give 200 PPM feed rate when dissolved in 10 gallons of water. Using guide numbers in this way is standard greenhouse and nursery procedure. It is accurate enough for this purpose and simple enough for everyday use...EdW]

JR000
When Dr. Wang was the speaker, he mentioned that, taking 5 different fertilizers, and keeping the nitrogen constant, all the Phals grew at the same rate.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Jerry, How did those Phals bloom? All the same?

kbbarrett
Jerry, I think when he kept the N constant it was at the 200ppm, and Ursula, I used to know jow much that was but then I turned 46 and the grey cells withered and I can't recall now!!

[To figure out a fertilizer ratio, multiply the N percentage by 75 to get the guide number for that fertilizer. In a 20-10-15 formulation, the N figure (20%) X 75 = 15. (.20 X 75 = 15). If you want 200 PPM N in the solution, divide 200 by 15 to get 13.3 ounces of the 20-10-15 per 100 gallons of water = a 200 PPM N feed rate. You may, of course, break that down to smaller quantities such as 1.3 ounces of 20-10-15 will give 200 PPM feed rate when dissolved in 10 gallons of water. Using guide numbers in this way is standard greenhouse and nursery
procedure. It is accurate enough for this purpose and simple enough for everyday use...EdW]

MiamiBert
How did Wang rule out that it was the POTASSIUM that was critical?

andynva
I believe Dr. Wang also showed fertilizer had no effect on blooms, rather temp. differentials at night provided the greatest results.

JR000
Susan - I don't think he carried the experiment to the flowering stage. Believe me, I could have forgotten.

MiamiBert
Temp differential has special effect on Phals in setting bloomspikes.

JR000
Bert - I suspect there was sufficient K in all the fertilizers.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
SO! Liebig's law really drives home the point that each growing location has it's own special needs re: ratio of the six essential growing elements!

MiamiBert
That's my point; you can't decide which, N, K or both critical.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
...just all the plant can handle, Bert...and low N when light is lower...

kbbarrett
Bert, how much of a plant is N?

JR000
The real problem in applying Liebig's Law is that there are so many subtle variations. But some, like water, are easy to correct.

jim4eq (Miami is chilly)
Probably if get *x* out of six right, others can be less than optimal.

MiamiBert
Seriously, some N in rainwater & decaying debris, but no monkeys, no potassium.

cattleya1 (Ursula in disguise)
V. luzonica blooms for me like clockwork after a temp drop. Also most phals.

JR000
I would suspect that, for most hobbyists, insufficient light is the problem.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Yes, Jim - like my HEAVY watering cancelling out some of the bad effects of my putrid water. I adjust the pH and pour away.

kbbarrett
To my mind the important freature of Leibig's Law is the notion of Limiting Factors at all. It gives you a place to start when trying to rule out causes of failure to thrive.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Yes, Jerry - and my conditions in that respect are worsening as the greenhouse (plexiglas) ages.

MiamiBert
In a closed case, even carbon dioxide can be limiting!

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Jerry, my most unchangable limitation is temperature. I grow em cool. It's taken me a long while to learn NOT to over water. Other growers watering frequencies kill my plants.

kbbarrett
Jerry, I agree about the light, and after that I'd say its humidity, not just watering, but water that's in the air. I don't believe those 'humidity trays' provide enough for orchids.

JR000
When Terry Root gave a lecture on Paphs he said to water thoroughly. Thoroughly was not the word he used.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
What was the word, Jerry?

JR000
Susan- are you limited by light also?

kbbarrett
Fordyce said the way to be sure to rot your plants was to water a little every day. Says to water so the water runs out of the pot, then let it dry some... and that's the trick!

JR000
Lois- you would not want to know. But I suspect you could make an excellent guess. Something like water the .... out of them.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Running out of pot is not enough --- water twice the volume of the pot or more running thru.

kbbarrett
Susan, you have also had the brains and experience to properly select the plants you grow for your environment.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Exactly my point, Jerry! *LOL* Get rid of all the ash and trash. *G*

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Jerry, Now that I've got a BIG LAMP, I'm less light-limited, if at all. (Even managed to burn Epi. radicans, this week. Put her too close, when she wasn't used to it.)

kbbarrett
Lois, that's a good rule of thumb, very visual!

Clare in LA
Lois, I think the word Jerry is looking for is drench. Right?

JR000
Kathy - there was a study about the humidity trays. As I suspected, they don't get much moisture to the plant if there is air movement.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Not quite, Clare.*G*

kbbarrett
Jerry, I agree, but you should have heard the howls on rec.gardens.orchids when Iris Cohen suggested it!

MiamiBert
Humidity trays are tokenism, but an ocean nearby helps.

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
Sometimes there are several factors to consider though, and it is hard to work on all of them. In our case, too much humidity and too little nutrients.

JR000
2 too many letters Clare.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Well, Kathy, That wasn't so hard. The plants that were not suited to my conditions DIED! (Actually, I've set up this heating pad-terrarium arrangement which gives me a small warm area for one Phal and some Paph seedlings

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
How cool can miltonias take. Don't know whether to move mine to GH or not.

kbbarrett
I also think the proper spectum of light is important, and that's why Susan will have good success with her set up, because she uses HID to supplement natural light.

JR000
Janette - but you can solve the nutrient problem can't you?

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
It takes a lot of work, especially during winter when the media doesn't dry out that fast. We have to supplement with CA and epsom salts and try to fertilize every 7 to 10 days.

JR000
There are so many beautiful orchids there is no sense in trying to grow the ones that are difficult for the environment.

Clare in LA
For the life of me I can't get the epsom salts to dissolve, and I'm not over saturating either. All they do is plug up my watering system.

kbbarrett
Janette, just to be a devil's advocate. Why bother fertilizing every 7 - 10 days? Why not go every month? Full strength?

JR000
Janette- you shouldn't have to fertilize that often in the winter time. Or is it the epsom salts that are required?

MiamiBert
Dissolve the Epsom salts in a bit of hot water first, Clare.

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Clare, try to use hot water and let it cool off before using,

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
Epsom salts and calcium are required. Right now we are doing good to get to it every 10 days. Kathy, just trying to follow everyone's advice with the fertilizing. Sometimes it gets confusing.

[Cardinal rule: DON't "follow everyone's advice"...just consider new ideas, and work in those that sound like they will make an improvement...and make only one change at a time to a small portion of your collection...mlg]

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
...a week to ten days is just about my watering schedule in humid SHV...unless we have ten days of rain.

Clare in LA
Will give it a try. At least any residue can be in another container.

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
I have never tried the Epsom salt. My phals are doing great, don't want to chance it.

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
Epsom salts takes up heat from the water when you try to dissolve it. Water will turn very cold.

kbbarrett
Janette, I agree, It's never easy is it!! *G* How are your plants responding to this care? If they're blooming, mahzletov!

MiamiBert
Commercial Epsom salts should give clear solution.

JR000
Janette - why not, for a few plants, fertilize every 3-4 weeks in the winter time.

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
OK. Will try that. What level of fertilize would you recommend?

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Me too, Barb - even if it's not really 'salt', I'm afraid of using it, though I've bought it a couple times.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Does anyone use Cacium-diphosphate on plants?

JR000
Last year we had a wet winter. One period the plants went for 8 weeks without water or fertilizer- no lasting problems.

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
We use calcium nitrate.

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
We have less that 4 ppm of Mg and only 9 of Ca, so that is why we supplement.

JR000
What fertilizer, Janette? I can only comment on mine.

MiamiBert
Miami municiple water contains lots of calcium sulphate

kbbarrett
Dang, Girl!! Bottle the stuff and sell it to Yuppies!!!!

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
I use Jerry's hooch. :-)

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
I used epsom salts last year on a poor Phal that hadn't bloomed for ages... It bloomed magnificently! (Of course, maybe the fact that it had roots for the first time in years helped too.)

kbbarrett
Susan! Sure is hard to rule out cause and effect, ain't it! Grin!!

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
Kathy, I have considered that. It is a lot better than most of the bottled water that is on the market.

JR000
Perhaps I should sell it via liquor stores. The only thing missing in the hooch is calcium. There is sufficient magnesium.

Clare in LA
Susan, roots definitely do help.

MiamiBert
Are you giving away trade secrets, Jerry?

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
No Calcium...maybe I should put oyster shell in ALL my potting mix.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Kathy, Always hard to really peg cause and effect, but...I used epsoms again this year! The plant still has roots, so, I'm hoping for great things.

JR000
Think of all the extra staking required if there are no roots.

Clare in LA
I must admit that when I'm gone for 3-4 weeks, the plants always look better than when I left them, blooming and such. I don't know if it's because I missed them, benign neglect, or that I am consistenly doing something wrong and they are just recovering.

kbbarrett
Susan! we expect a picture, if you can get the blooms in the frame that is! Good goin' girl!

JR000
Bert - now you know all my secrets. Please don't tell anyone.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Do most of you grow phals in fine bark or in peat type mixture?

MiamiBert
Ritter Orchids claims to use 2 Tbl/gal Epsom salts, but I'm skeptical.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Bark.

peterlin
Art - most of my phals are either in Pro-Mix HP (peat) or sphagnum moss.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Art, my one Phal is in fir bark-based mix.

kbbarrett
Clare, my plants did just fine without me while I was building the GH. I chalked it up to wetter weather cooler temps, which allowed me to water less frequently. So since I didn't have to be there and I could build the GH.

JR000
Lois- oyster shells or egg shells. Or every 4th feeding use calcium nitrate instead of the regular fertilizer. I think the oyster shells would be the easiest.

Clare in LA
Bark, but not fine. I go with the theory that the fatter the root the bigger the bark.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Bert, I had quite an aversion to putting ANYTHING called 'salts' on my plants.

JR000
I agree with you, Clare.

kbbarrett
Art, both fine bark and Wang's mud, which is similar to a peat mix. Peter, how do you re-wet your ProMix when it dries out?

MiamiBert
Don't call them anything within earshot of the plants.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Thanks. Carter and Holmes is using peat type mix and most of mine are in bark, hard to keep from overwatering.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Yes. Phals in big bark chunks. (Rule of thumb: The wider the roots, The bigger the bark chunks!)

peterlin
I water all the plants..and go back for a second round..

JR000
Susan - all fertilizers contain salts. It doesn't have to be sodium chloride to be considered a salt. Magnesium sulphate is also a salt.

MiamiBert
The term 'salts' encompasses a diverse variety of things; think of them as 'stuff'

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Most of my plants still young. 3 to 4 in pots first blooms. [Lots of enjoyment ahead!]

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Jerry, Ah! Hence the importance of leaching with copious water.

kbbarrett
Peter, you never accidentlay miss one, it gets dried out, and you have to rewet it?

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
That's why I'm in charcoal, slotted pots and baskets...harder to overwater.

MiamiBert
Good strategy, Lois.

peterlin
Kathy - I probably did...I just watered more on those that I missed..

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Learned right off that plastic pots aren't for my greenhouse and me.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
I got a couple of new Pleuorthallids, that are planted in coconut fiber(?). They seem to be doing well in it. When its wet, its very wet, but dries pretty quickly. Anyone here familiar with the stuff?

Clare in LA
Why not plastic pots, Lois. I live by them.

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
Clare, here again it depends on your conditions. WE use clay pots because the plants stay too wet in plastic and the roots rot.

MiamiBert
OFE now has heavy, generously slotted plastic pots; just started using.

kbbarrett
People have always told me that the peat-based mediums are harder to rewet, and of course, in my laziness, I've let a couple of phals in peat go dry. I've watered them thoroughly, or what I consider to be thoroughly, but still wonder if there's a dry spot deep inside. Any comments as to how to rule this out, short of repotting? Dunk it in water?

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
I use a few plastic pots, but not until I've poked lots of holes in them with a heated ice-pick. Till they're almost as ventilated as net pots.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Too wet here...I have some midsize phals in LOW plastic pots. Soon as I get something I repot...no NZ sphagnum and no plastic if I want roots.

Clare in LA
So the clay pots take out more of the moisture. But, then you've got a problem with salt build up in the pots?

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
When you use heat (soldering iron, hot ice pick) on plastic pots, be outside - the fumes are deadly.

JR000 It would also be easy to drill holes in plastic pots.

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Kathy, use one of the old style hair pick, like the long teeth comb. Poke it into the peat mix to loose it up a little.

JR000
Dunk 'em, Kathy

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Not if you water heavily, Clare. Believe me, there is salt build-up in plastic as well if not watered properly. I tried putting all the extra holes in plastic, my slotted clay just work better for me. If something seems to need more water, I break up small pieces of NZ sphagnum in mix and/or use smaller charcoal.

kbbarrett
Dunk 'em till they sink, OK!

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
Kathy, I think that at first it is hard to get the peat mix wet, but after a month or so of watering it begins to take up the water more readily. I really don't think that you would have to worry about dry spots if you watered thoroughly.

peterlin
Yes, if the peat is bone dry, either repot or put your finger in the mix to break up the mix. Also, add a bit dish washing detergent in the water might help.

kbbarrett
Janette, I just keep thinking of those small plants you get at supermarkets, like philodendrons etc, that are in that crappy potting soil with peat, once it dries there's no way to re wet it! *G*!

MiamiBert
Used to use charcoal, Lois, but switched to Aliflore; more regular and easier to pot with.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
I had one plant in sphagnum (a Rossioglossum). Boy, did it grow well,,...until, it ABRUPTLY, and without warning, lost all its roots. No sphagnum for me, thanks!

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Susan, use an old solder iron, so you don't have to heat ice pick.

JanetteH (In the foothills of NC )
Usually that is straight peat, Kathy and it is hard to rewet. I just repotted a bunch of phrags out of compots and will have to water them every two to three days for a while until the peat mix starts taking up the water. It will after a while but you have to work at it.

peterlin
I use clay pot and sphagnum moss to help phals with little or no root to recover. But clay pot is not really good because in the winter time, the pot gets too cold for the root... water evaporates and absorbs heat.

kbbarrett
Too true, Susan! I lost roots on one of those (expensive) Taiwanese blotchy colored phals. Again, no more moss for me either. Suddenly Rootless Syndrome!

JR000
I think that the recent discussion shows how varied the conditions are in various locations. And that is probably a simple factor of Liebig's Law.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Yes, Jerry - that's why we should just 'collect ideas', think about them, and try out new ones we think would fit our situation on a few plants - not jump in and wholesale change growing methods. And that is also why it is so good for us to show our location in our taglines.

Clare in LA
I had a combination of clay and plastic and all sorts of medium. Just couldn't keep up with it. Now all in bark and plastic and I stay consistent. I'll admit some adapted and some called it quits.

kbbarrett
Yay, Clare! A good lesson learned!

JR000
Do any of you experiment changing conditions on just a few plants. If not, it is a lot of fun. So you lose a few plants.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Right, Clare! Way to go! I had a mess until I finally settled on one type of pot and one media, made different by using different sizes of charcoal. Everything doing much better...including me!

kbbarrett
Lois, yes changing too many variables at once will muddy your thinking, you'll never know just what worked and what didn't!

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Well said, Lois, we sure learn some thing new every time we chat here.

Clare in LA
I've never considered losing a few plants fun, Jerry. The most adventurous I've ever been is summering some plants outside.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
It's much easier to keep everything in one media if possible. Easier to know when to water. Also I try to keep smaller pots in one area larger pots in another area.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Yes. Don't change anything too fast. It's taken me nearly 2 decades to figure out how to water bark-based media. Maybe its not the best, but I'm starting to get the hang of it. Switch? No!

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Right on, Art!

JR000
Kathy - that is why so much credit should go to the researchers who discovered the formulas for growing orchids from seed. And also the work on mericlones.

Clare in LA
Art, I learned that too. All small pots together.

jagso (JAGS[ORCHIDSASIA,Bombay.)
Talking about media of Orchids Have any experimented with Coconut Husk blocks...after detanning..

MiamiBert
The cutting edge will be new colors and shapes through molecular biology techniques.

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Jerry, I sure have, a few Den didn't do well, so I just put them out side with my bonsai, now they are better then ever. Even in the GH, I try to change some from the warm end to cool end or vise versa.

JR000
Susan - now you are one patient person.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
I put things together by size as well, but put 3 and 4 inch pots up near front edge of benches with their kind. that way I can just 'water up front' if need be.

jagso (JAGS[ORCHIDSASIA,Bombay)
I believe a huge number of growers right in Thailand and Malaysia and India and Ceylon use these for growing right from PHALS to CATTLEYAS, to dendrobiums to a whole host of Orchids.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Yes Jerry, I've had extra plants which I've experimented with. I planted a spare Cym into pure, uncomposted horse poop about a year ago. It thrives still. Top dressed a Dend kingianum with sheep droppings. No problem there.

Clare in LA
Well, I am open for anything to make my B. digbyana bloom again.

MiamiBert
Do the sheep ever miss the pot?

jagso (JAGS[ORCHIDSASIA,Bombay.)
Some insights about basic Nitrogen release mechanism of the media might also influence the types.

JR000
Barbara - do you underpot your Den. like everyone else (except me).

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Clare, may be just use Jerry's bloom see what will happen.

kbbarrett
Jags, I have seen chunks of coconut bark used, I think it has to be desalted prior to use on orchids, but the plants I've purchased in it seem to like it! Do you use it?

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Jerry, most of my dendrobiums are in baskets! *G*

Clare in LA
I've never gotten that underpot thing right. How in the world do you smash all those roots back into a small pot after they've felt freedom?

BTague (Barbara, N.CA)
Jerry I don't know if underpot is the word, I just don't re-pot Den... I may break old pot put it into a bigger pot if I must.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
I have a cross of Brassavola digbyana 'Laura' x B. dibyana 'Mrs. Chase' - sure is slow grower. If I had known this slow probably would not have purchased

Clare in LA
Alright, Jerry. Barbara has thrown down the gauntlet. Gonna make my digbyana bloom.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Bert, The 'Nanny berries' are hand selected from my corrals (rubber gloves recommended), and are a little bit drier than the, er, still warm fresh ones.

JR000
Clare - do you grow outside or in g/h?

jagso (JAGS[ORCHIDSASIA,Bombay.)
Barrett. Yes. But the Husk should be dry and detanned with washing in several turns to remove the Tannins which are harmful.. Once these are removed it is a wonderful substrate because it helps better root growth of the plants.. But it also holds more moisture. One has to try and arrive at a way of growing. It is very good also because it lends itself to mounting in several ways.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
I'll listen to any B. digbyana tips too!

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Been using since summer - only one growth since April.

Clare in LA
Jerry, it's in the gh with the rest of the catts. Lots of light. Has travelled all around the gh. Now on East side. Has bloomed twice, but not in three years.

marylois (Topic: Liebigs Law with Jerry Rodder)
Susan, that's one I keep underpotted...and water twice...and hang high in GH for lots of light.

JR000
Send it up here, Clare. It will either bloom or die.