OrchidSafari ARCHIVES*

1. PRE-DISCUSSION MAILOUT

2. TRANSCRIPT

PRE-DISCUSSION MAILOUT

This conservation discussion is centered around the consequence of collecting one orchid plant. Depending upon how we script the story, the orchid could be the only one collected from a wild population, it could be the only one left after an unscrupulous collector took the rest or it could be the only one surviving in cultivation.

ACT ONE Scene 1
In a pine wood just outside a newly developed suburb somewhere in North America.

"Aren’t the pink lady’s-slippers beautiful! I'll just dig only one, the largest plant with the most flowers, leaving the smaller ones to grow for others to enjoy...... This plant will look lovely in my garden!"

ACT ONE Scene 2
In the suburban garden one year later.

Wow! It’s blooming. Those nosy neighbors said it wouldn’t live but I proved them wrong. I succeeded where others failed. I must tell _____. He has always hesitated to collect wild orchids because he thought they wouldn’t survive transplanting. I will show him what I did and where they are growing so he can take one too. I want to share my success story!

ACT ONE Scene 3
In the suburban garden two years later.

I can’t understand it. The orchid flowered last year and looked fine. The leaves maybe were not as big as in the woods but I think it was because of the drought. Maybe a squirrel dug the plant up. Before I collect another to replace this one, I must think of a way to foil those squirrels.

ACT TWO Scene 1
Somewhere in Guiana (Guyana). The year 1840.

"I must hurry with the collection of this spectacular new species found in bloom this May, 1840. I have collected every plant that I can in this valley, taken notes and destroyed the rest............"

ACT TWO Scene 2
Somewhere on the way to port, June 1840.

"Packed the plants carefully but lost two crates to the river......... The one remaining lot should fetch a premium commission."

ACT TWO Scene 3
A stovehouse somewhere in England, May 1841

"The orchids purchased at auction continue to thrive except for two that promised to be spectacular specimens but alas, they dwindle day by day."

ACT TWO Scene 4
A conservatory somewhere in England, January 1941

"The coal ration is such that we must cease heating the conservatory. Pity the grandfather’s orchids may not survive but once the war is over, I expect we shall get some replacements."

ACT THREE Scene 1
In a Vanilla plantation outside of Oxaaca, Mexico, 1990

"More vines must be destroyed today as they are diseased. The winter rains caused root rot. We must propagate more vines to keep up production."

ACT THREE Scene 2
An investigator prepares his report.

"No more than 30 wild specimens have been located. There may not be large enough tracts of rainforest with living plants to ensure in situ survival of the species.... The establishment of gene banks is extremely urgent for this orchid that represents an important source of foreign exchange for several tropical countries."

The story in each of these settings is much the same although species, time and place vary a lot.

"Only One taken", without realizing that others may come, one by one, to each take one..... and then one day, there will be none. If all the plants survived in cultivation, maybe the story would not be quite so tragic, but more often than not, few of the collected plants survive. Then we are all losers. There are none to view in the forest, none to admire in the garden, and none left to reproduce their kind. Perhaps the most troubling of all is that some of the most robust plants may also be important seed parents in a population. Taking even one key plant in a population may greatly affect the balance of that group.

"Only One left", in full realization that taking as much as one could and destroying the rest would leave no rchids for competitors, so as to corner the market. If most of the collected plants had survived in cultivation, maybe the story would not have been quite so tragic, but few if any of those plants survived the formidable gauntlet of shipment, less than ideal growing conditions, wartime fuel rationing, and virus. The only one left in the wild may or may not be a thrifty plant. Depending upon the genes it carries, it may become the progenitor of a weak or strong population or no population at all.

"Taking Care of the Only Ones Left" Vanilla is an ancient crop of the tropical Americas, in cultivation long efore the coming of Columbus to the New World. It is now raised in many tropical countries around the world. A hand pollination technique developed in the 1840's is still being used, an expert being able to pollinate 1000-1500 flowers a day. Long before virus disease was understood, propagation and pollination techniques no doubt contributed to the spread of disease within plantations. Diseased vines were burned and new material acquired from the wild. Vigorous cultivars producing the most flowers and the best quality fruits were conserved resulting in the development of very narrow gene pool. Now when plant scientists seek wild specimens as sources of genetic variation, as a means of getting around self-compatibility problems or as sources of genes passing on resistance to root rot, there are few wild plants to be found. When hybridizers look for new genetic material to instill vigor to their breeding lines, their search is often in vain.

Do we see a parallel situation now looming with cultivated orchids? What steps must the orchid community take to conserve our beloved orchids so that they do not go the way of vanilla, one of the orchids longest in cultivation?

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TRANSCRIPT

"Only One"

Moderator: Marilyn H. S. Light
WBS, Wed, 13 Jan 99

Present were 18:

marilyninOttawa
MiamiBert
marylois (northern Louisiana)
peeteilis (Tom - KY)
sparkysteve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
bradwinn (Brad Winnicki from Sault Ste. Marie MI)
UncleEarl (Vacaville CA)
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Carol Holdren (Boca Raton, FL)
Ellen,Smithtown,New York
gaillevy ( Boca Raton, Fl)
BTague (Barbara, N.Ca)
paulav (Paula in Boca Raton,FL)
Jane DePadro (Fort Lauderdale FL)
Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach CA)
AORCHID (art,simpsonville SC)
cattleyatoo (Ursula, Caracas, Venezuela)

marilyninOttawa
Has everyone read the pre-discussion piece As I prepared for it, I came across examples of how quickly plants can change once brought into cultivation. I wonder if any of you have anecdotes/information to share? An example is the Vanilla of culinary use. It has been cultivated for perhaps a thousand years yet plants in most plantations are very closely related if not all members of the same clone. Another example (non-orchid) is 'Purple Ruffles' Basil. An All America winner, this strain has deteriorated from its original award-winning purple form to one where up to 4% of the leaf area is now green. Genetic integrity is fragile: we have to consider conservation for many more than a few years let alone a thousand.

Jane DePadro
Marilyn, that is very dangerous, that makes them susceptible to all kinds of disease and other problems.

marylois
I've had no luck at all with native plants...tried a Spiranthes, and someone gave me a - whazzit's name [Tipularia discolor]...both expired. [and both widespread...mlg]

cattleyatoo (ursula, caracas, venezuela)
Have been growing a Malaxis, a local terrestrial for quite some years. It won't flower though.

MiamiBert
Artillery fern used to be decorative, now plague of orchid pots.

peeteilis (tominky)
But that is what we do to all civilized things, plants, chickens, cattle, we keep what we like or can handle, do away with the rest. marilyninOttawa
When we collect orchids from the wild, legally or not, we take and we receive. We take and maybe do harm to a wild population. We receive, perhaps the last individual of an endangered species into a living herbarium, but then what could we or should we do to conserve that plant? Jane DePadro
Like the cheetah and like that most awful tasting apple the red 'delicious' Habitat preservation should be the goal of conservationists. We lose bio diversity by favoring the plants and animals that are 'tractable' like the sheep that are so inbred and stupid they can't defend themselves, the plants must lose some of that 'toughness' and get weaker in captivity.

peeteilis (tominky)
Jane is that possible with increasing populations and civ. needs?

marilyninOttawa
Conservation is 'making wise use of our orchid resource'. What do you all feel is 'wise use'? Speaking of apples: in Europe, 90% of the apples grown commercially are one type, Golden Delicious. What if this type develops a susceptibility to a disease? Where do we get access to genetic material to infuse new vigor and disease resistance if we have allowed the rest of the types to disappear?

MiamiBert
Devil's advocate. Man not placed on earth exclusively to preserve orchid species.

marylois
IMHO, it's best to leave them alone - even if in harm's way - unless one knows how to care for them. That makes it imperative folks like you continue with experimentation on growing wild plants.

Jane DePadro
I feel wise use for everything is habitat preservation. For me, I don't want tto live in the woods WITH the bears, but I want there to be places for them in the woods.

marilyninOttawa
I agree Bert. Orchids are just one small part of a very big preservation movement. Right now, we humans are learning -fast- that it pays to keep some species in existence.

peeteilis (tominky)
Marilyn, how many of a species is necessary to maintain the gene pool in variety?

marilyninOttawa
Aaron will be discussing the Orchid Seed Bank Project on February 24. Seed banking is one way to preserve germplasm.

MiamiBert
Third worlders need living space. Sherwood's orchids saved from bulldozer in Belize.

Jane DePadro
HOW MUCH OF THE EARTH DOES MAN HAVE TO PAVE OVER?

MiamiBert
Do I have a right to tell Belize peasant can't have new farmland?

Jane DePadro
Bert, the 'peasants' of CA and SA USED to be the native peoples, they burned little patches of forest for centuries without destroying their world. WHAT HAS CHANGED THE EQUATION in the last few years?

cattleyatoo (ursula, caracas, venezuela)
Too many little people, burning too many patches and throwing concrete on them.

peeteilis (tominky)
Jane, the European concept of permanent ownership of property, particularly land.

MiamiBert
The equation changed by modern medicine. People survive longer.

Jane DePadro
Yes...

peeteilis (tominky)
Marilyn, if I keep ten of a species, that doesn't mean I have ten different plants. It might mean I have ten pieces of one plant.

marilyninOttawa
Good question, Peeteilis. I work with Cypripediums, three species. I know that an average of one in five of those yellow lady's slippers is a poor pollen parent. The pollen is not germinable or does not effectively sire seeds on other plants. This suggests that at least five randomly selected plants and perhaps 25 plants (or more) would have to be preserved if that population were to carry on producing seed. With Epipactis helleborine, all plants are closely related genetically even though breeding is random. In this case even a very few individuals could reestablish the population if others were destroyed. Perhaps that is one reason why E. helleborine is a weedy orchid in North America.

Jane DePadro
Marilyn, a problem that I have personally witnessed among orchid growers, is the attitude that EVERYONE ELSE TAKES PLANTS, SO WHY SHOULDN'T I? 'I am such a good grower, that ANY plant I take from the wild is 'LUCKY' I AM DIFFERENT FROM ALL THE 'OTHERS' (the rules don't apply to ME, attitude)

marylois
Unfortunately, that axiom is permeating society at every level these days...puts new meaning into putting all effort into one's own thinking/actions.

marilyninOttawa
Yes, Jane, unfortunately that is human nature. What I am trying to bring out in this discussion is the fact that orchids in cultivation do die and we and our future generations must keep them actually or virtually alive for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years if they are to preserve the plants.

marylois
Agree to do that - but definitely require guidelines first.

peeteilis (tominky)
Marilyn, can plants be traced by genetic trace of the chlorophyll, as mitochondria in mammals?

MiamiBert
To rephrase, genetic diversity can be established by DNA sequence of section of Chloroplast DNA in plants. Mitochondria doesn't work here.

marilyninOttawa
Yes, both isoenzyme analyses and chloroplast/nuclear DNA can be sampled to understand orchid lineage and relationships. In 1998, a colleague sampled my Epipactis test populations using these methods. That is how I know that they are, as far as the methods used could tell us, closely related.

marilyninOttawa
When I bloom a community pot of, e.g., Masd lamprotyria, and examine the flowers, I can see differences in color and shape. I know they are sibs because I was told the seeds came from the same capsule. They may be the result of a self-pollination or they may be the result of outcrossing with a close or distant member of the same species. Either way they are closely related but not identical. I sib cross between the five individuals and find that not all can be seed parents. I wonder if this would have been the case in the wild. For whatever the reason, I can get only one plant to produce a capsule from the sib cross. The gene pool of my population is likely become narrowed if I can only breed one plant and, if similar breeding limitations are experienced in the subsequent generations, the poll will continue to narrow as selection occurs.

peeteilis (tominky)
Marilyn, that is evolution at work, Success in any situation.

Jane DePadro
So you recommend that we all grow SOME wild orchids? Obtained how? From the seed bank project and just work on a few to preserve them? Jones and Scully had a nice collection of species. GONE, How about the botanical gardens, Longwood, Fairchild, etc, how about if they try a plant preservation program, or do they have them, they can keep in touch easily on line. But the HABITAT IS STILL IMPORTANT.

marilyninOttawa
Jane. I think that 'we' must grow some orchid species in cultivation whose habitat is completely destroyed. We have to be very careful to ensure that the legacy is conserved. Plants can be propagated vegetatively and disseminated. DNA can be extracted and stored for later profiling. The plant(s) can be bred to produce seed for short, medium and long term banking. Ditto for the pollen.

Jane DePadro
I hope we can do that for everything. There is no reason to keep repeating the mistakes, though.

MiamiBert
Does each new manmade hybrid also need to be preserved? If all manmade hybrids need preservation, and we go on making them, just matter of time before they crowd people out.

Jane DePadroBR> RELAX, Bert, humans are like cockroaches, they're everywhere they're everywhere!

marilyninOttawa
Well Bert, some manmade hybrids are the only source of genes now lost through death of the parent plants. We may think of hybrids as being 50% of parent X and 50% of parent Y but it is a lot more complex than that. Individuals of the mating carry varying proportions of each parent. Some individuals may carry a recessive gene while others do not. We may 'select' for genes which express in color, shape or scent but we cannot select for what we cannot see.

cattleyatoo (ursula, caracas, venezuela)
Bert, don't worry, it usually takes people to conserve/grow the hybrids, so it's probably self-limiting.

MiamiBert
Hybrids can contribute more to plant vigor than genetic diversity of diverse species gene pool.

marilyninOttawa
I believe that Bob Hamilton will be speaking about 'endangered orchid hybrids' at the WOC.

MiamiBert
While we can all appreciate the advantage of gene pool preservation, this need not be an overwhelming consideration.

cattleyatoo (ursula, caracas, venezuela)
I have centennial trees in my neighborhood, but I don't have a single plant say 50 years old, that I inherited from a previous grower. How long do orchids live? I think we can only hope to conserve and hand on successive progeny.

marilyninOttawa
Many epiphytic/lithophytic orchids are very long-lived perennials. Some could live for a hundred years or more. (They can just as quickly succumb to fire, flood, storm, or human-related damage). Orchid populations are dynamic entities. Plants grow, flower, breed, and die. Seedlings do the same and so forth. But now the space for them to grow in the wild is rapidly diminishing. Plants may be too far apart to breed or if seeds are produced, there may be no other suitable habitat in which to germinate. This type of situation causes some plants to be brought into cultivation, as there is no other choice if we are to 'keep' the species alive.

peeteilis (tominky)
Marilyn, if I try to keep P. humboldtii from Madagascar, how many do I have to keep to maintain the species? Do I ever breed them?

marilyninOttawa
An individual does not have to keep many specimens themselves. Several individuals/organizations could house a population within which outcrossing could be done to ensure seed production for both banking and propagation. Should you ever breed your P. humboldtii? If the plant is healthy and vigorous, I would suggest that you locate another plant owner (it could be in a botanical garden) and see if you can arrange an exchange of pollen to produce seed. The reciprocal cross should be made if possible. Seed and progeny should be shared.

peeteilis (tominky)
Marilyn, you have 'kissin' cousins', is this the reason for decreased fertility? Isn't this the way plants conserve energy for better seeds? ( I am not certain whether the decreased fertility in the case of Masd. lamprotyria is because the plants are closely related. Good question! ML)

cattleyatoo (ursula, caracas, venezuela)
Any species, unless self-pollinated, is a sibling cross. The difference is that there is no deliberate choice to improve the characteristics. {I may be a purist but I consider sib crosses to be pollinations between plants arising from the same seed capsule. There is evidence that the further you go from a core population, the less closely related the plants are and the more likely you are to be able to pollinate and get seed and subsequent seedling vigor. Sib crosses could be made in an attempt to select for and improve upon a characteristic. ML}

marilyninOttawa
Peeteilis. If you were asking about the variation in Cypripedium pollen germinability, I know for a fact that the pollen of my so-called poor pollen parents is not germinable, even in vitro. This situation may have arisen because of inbreeding within a confined population.

peeteilis (tominky)
Marilyn, I am speaking of most species, if we keep selfing, or back crossing. The plant becomes self-allergic, or the plant equivalent. The 'glory' of orchids is their variability, not their uniformity. As in dandelions.

MiamiBert
I think most of us prefer sibbing to selfing to preserve vigor. Selfing is usually a desperate attempt to reestablish species in absence of other specimens. I feel squeamish about selfing. Sort of like plant incest.

marilyninOttawa
Bert, even hybrids can become 'inbred'. A lot of genetic diversity had been/has been lost because of 'dead end' breeding. For example, until Don Wimber developed the colchicine technique, triploids could rarely be bred. What do think should be the alternative then, Bert?

MiamiBert
You do what you have to. P. delenatii resurrected by selfing, I believe.

marilyninOttawa
I understand, Peeteilis. My hope is for us to conserve variability so as to maintain a choice. We can line breed in parallel for horticultural purposes. It is within the unplanned variability that we may seek to go for other traits in future.

peeteilis (tominky)
On the subject of remaking a species by selfing. Remember J. Cagney tried to remake the European red cattle by inbreeding. He got something that looked like the species, but did not have the genes of the species.

MiamiBert
My knowledge of cattle breeding minimal.

marilyninOttawa
It is not certain but assumed that the Paph. delenatii in cultivation came from one plant. The one remaining plant of Epi. ilense was found to be self-incompatible when first collected. It was mericloned and some of those individuals were found to breed. Things do change with time.

MiamiBert
So some diversification possible even through mericloning? Then we have nothing to worry about.

marylois
But we're not talking about man-made evolution on fast-forward, Bert - we want to preserve the original species' genes.

MiamiBert
New genes might be more interesting. What about mutagens? Any given mutation might be undesirable, but we then select for the more interesting ones produced. Remember, 'The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds'.

marylois
OK, Darth *LOL*

marilyninOttawa
Maybe, Bert, and then maybe not. We cannot know why the individual Epi. ilense did not breed. The infertility could have been related to flower age, plant vigor or true incompatibility. [TIP! If you have only one of a kind and it is rare and you want to at least try to get seed from it, knowing that it has been self-incompatible on past tries: Pollinate the flower the day it opens. Pollinate the lowest flower on a multi-flower spike the day it opens.]

MiamiBert
It seems to me that mutagens have been largely ignored in orchid breeding, no?

MiamiBert
Good tip, Marilyn. An interesting subject that deserves more extensive discussion than convenient on internet. Thanx and good nite.

marilyninOttawa
I think we can try mutagens (it is already being done for a matter of fact) but I feel that we should preserve what we have as well as try new things. This is known as hedging one's bets. *G*

Jane DePadro
Marilyn, are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future of orchids in particular?

marilyninOttawa
Good question, Jane, and one which I ask myself on a regular basis. I can see massive change in the future but whether this is for the good or for the worse, I cannot decide. I am pessimistic for maintaining what we have but I am not pessimistic about having to deal with what we will have later. I strive to keep my/our options open. That is one reason that I do these sessions. Our options lie with hobbyists/specialists like you.

marylois
Excellent, Marilyn.

marilyninOttawa
Goodnite Bert. Maybe we should have a specialist speaker to discuss possibilities sometime? Lois?

marylois
Certainly, Marilyn. Let's talk.

marilyninOttawa
Must be off now folks. It was a great discussion. It will be -31C here tonight (that is about -25F). A big snow storm is expected tomorrow night.

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