OrchidSafari Judging

Sophronitis cernua var. mineira x self

NATURAL SPREAD: Horizontal: 3.3 cm; Vertical: 2.5 cm

DORSAL SEPAL: 0.8 cm WIDE; 1.7 cm LONG

PETAL: 1.2 cm WIDE; 1.7 cm LONG

LATERAL SEPAL: 0.7 cm WIDE; 1.8 cm LONG

LIP: 0.7 cm WIDE; 1.2 cm LONG

DESCRIPTION
Nineteen flowers and four buds on three inflorescences mounted on an 18 x 20 cm slab; sepals and petals translucent tangerine veined with darker orange; lip pure light tangerine; column apical side lobes edged deep magenta and anther cap dark grape.

ON-LINE DISCUSSION

marilyninOttawa
As you will see from the description, the example is a variety of Sophronitis cernua. Regrettably, I could not find much about this variety. The photo shows three of the 19 flowers and four buds. The photo color is darker than was apparent at the time of judging. This is more a phenomenon of the scanning process than of the award photo.

Some previous awards for Soph. cernua (no variety given) are as follows:

• 'Sally's Delight' HCC 75 pts, 12 flowers and 36 buds on eight inflorescences - natural spread 2.2 cm;
  
• 'Bowmar' HCC, CCM 79 points 521 flowers on 83 inflor, natural spread 2.2 cm;
  
• 'Highland' AM 80 pts, 21 flowers on four inflorescences, natural spread 2.7 cm; and
  
• 'Bob Sanker' CCM 80 points, 66 flowers and 8 buds on 11 inflor, natural spread 3.1 cm.
  

marilyninOttawa
As far as I understand it, the whole plant and all the flowers are considered at first glance as to whether for example, a CCM might be in order. Once a CCM is ruled out because flower count is too low, other factors are considered. The factors could be av. number of flowers per inflorescence, color, flower dimensions and overall impact. When the decision is made to examine the flower for a flower quality award, one flower is measured, and measurements compared to previous awards. This is the flower that the photographer is directed to photograph if an award is forthcoming.

Ellen,Smithtown,New York
I think Soph. usually has 2 bud per growth so it is floriferous. Marilyn did you say the color was judged? (Color is certainly considered as part of the judging process. ML)

marilyninOttawa
This Soph. cernua certainly has the capacity to be floriferous.

marylois
I did some research - natural spread (ns) ranges 2.2 - 3.1 cm with most a 2.8 - so this one is largest. Regarding inflorescences, others average 6 flowers per infl- up to 10 or 11/infl. This comes in at about 7 and a half per infl.

marilyninOttawa
There seem to be two clusters of flower size in the award literature. One around 2.2 cm wide and another around 3.1-3.3

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Are any of the other awarded plants photographed? Be nice to compare them.

MarilyninOttawa
There was one S. cernua given an HCC in 1993 'Fire Sprites'. I do not have that picture to show you.

marylois
Not seeing the plant, but based on floriferousness, I'd pass on CCM.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Agree with ML, assuming accurate description. Too bad cernua wasn't more popular as a parent back when....

marilyninOttawa
Good point Lois. The flower count per inflorescence is high but the total flower count is low, basically because this was a young plant.

marylois
Synopsis:
Natural Spread this plant 3.3 x 2.5 cm, others 3.3 to 3.1, most 2.8.
Petals this one 1.2 wide, others 1.2 and 1.7.
Lips this one .7, others .5 to .9, average .7
Flowers this one 19/4/3 - close to 8/infl others run 10 to 11/infl.

platystele2 (Peggy in Wisc)
Wow....

marilyninOttawa
When I examined a picture of Soph. cernua in The Encyclopedia of Orchids, you could see that this flower is much fuller than the book example. The texture and translucence were not captured in the photo but impressed the writer of the description as you can see.

kbbarrett
Looks like a nice flower! Like you all have said, very large! The lower right sepal isn't flat however. I assume if this was present on all the other flowers it would count points off. I thought the flower count was really good! 19.

marilyninOttawa
Good point Kathy. I believe that the disparity in size is a photographic problem.

marylois
Kathy, yes 19 sounds like a lot...plus 4 buds equals 23 - but on 4 infl - that makes it an avg of jut under 8 flwrs per infl...compare to what the species is capable of.

marilyninOttawa
Here is a synopsis of the Cattleya Judging Standards.

kbbarrett
Well, all I know is that I've tried to grow one of these (cernuas) from an itty bitty bit I got from J&L 4 yrs ago. I now have 4 bulbs. A friend of mine has one about 10x as big as mine and I'm in awe.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Lois, from a judging standpoint, how would you judge the lips on cernua hybrids? Looks like it could have quite an influence?

marilyninOttawa
Earl, in the previous awards, the lip did vary in proportion but only marginally in size.
0.9 w x 1.1 l;
0.5 w x 1.0 l;
0.5 w x 0.8 l;
0.7 w x 0.9 l;
1.0 w x 0.7 l.
The flower we are examining had 0.7 w x 1.2 l.

marylois
Yes, Earl - lip width, flatness are important in all cattleya judging - esp. primary breeding - the more the small lip is overcome, the better. I always look (as a minimum) at NS, petal width and lip width - length (to me) all falls into BALANCE...don't feel I need those measurements if I have a photo or plant in front of me.

kbbarrett
In terms of this flower and Lois' comments on balance I'd say the right side (petals and sepals) are smaller than the left side, so not balanced to my eye. However seeing 19 of these would be wonderful! So we say its not as floriferous as it could be, but then the judging form doesn't award many points to flower count.

marylois
Ah-hah! Beware photos on symmetry! Just a little crimp on underside of right petal and right lateral sepal. Floriferousness is 10 pts, as is size, etc.

platystele2
I can't imagine ever getting 19 flowers on my S. cernua....

marilyninOttawa
My hubby Michael, who took the photo at the judging, tells me that you can see from the two other flowers in side view that the petals canted forward; the flower was not perfectly flat. This could account for the seeming disparity between segments.

marylois
Marilyn - what makes it variety mineira? The purple lip? - seems all others were yellow-orange.

marilyninOttawa
I could find no awards listing the stated variety although it seemed that the magenta column side lobes did vary between specimens. They are certainly evident here but mention was made only once of similar coloring in another S.cernua award description. It seems that the base color varies a lot but I am uncertain whether everyone has been using the same color standard to describe the entry.

marilyninOttawa
Given the Cattleya judging standards, what would you consider as an appropriate score for flower form? You have a maximum of 30 points to award. You are looking to award points based on fullness and roundness according to the type.

platystele2
From what I understand, becoming an AOS judge is very involved and takes a while to become certified.

marylois
24 is my score on form

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
I'd give about 23 on form

kbbarrett
Well, according to the criteria we were given, the flower shape should be within certain guidelines - roundness. To my eye it falls a very little bit short on that, like the right/left discrepancy I mentioned. Out of 30 pts I'd downgrade the sepal, and roundness, but not by much! *G* 26-27 pts. Unless I'm speaking too soon?

marilyninOttawa
Now let's award points on color. Remember that what you see in the scanned image is not as spectacular as the real thing. You could award up to 30 points.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc):
From what I see I'd say about 27 to 28.

kbbarrett
I can't fault the color, unless the slight yellowness in the 'veins' is a detraction.

marilyninOttawa
Other characteristics include flower size, which someone has already mentioned as being greater than previous awards (up to 10 points), substance and texture up to 20 points, and floriferousness up to 10 points.

kbbarrett
Boy, I'm the high point giver tonight!

marylois
25 for me on color

platystele2
I am not a judge, but it is interesting listening to all of your musings over this sophoronitis....

marilyninOttawa
Remember, if you are judging, point or otherwise, something about the specimen has already caught your eye. Before you begin pointing the specimen, you call upon your experience and upon the exact measurements and descriptions of previous awards.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
I'd give about 8.5 on size, 15 on substance. and texture.(guess), and 8 on flor. for a 31. I forgot what my other scores were but I'm giving it a 79

marylois
I'm 32 - for an overall score of Award of Merit, 81 points

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
One must remember, at a real judging you would have, if you have a good clerk...

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
79

marilyninOttawa
If the votes are all in? This flower clearly marked high on flower size but must have lost points in other areas. Substance is not mentioned so perhaps points were lost here. This clone, named 'Cecile-Amelie' garnered an HCC/AOS of 76 points. There is plenty of opportunity for the owner to grow this plant to specimen size.

marylois
Oh! Was I high! Would still like to know the characteristics of this variety.

Slc. (Rajah's Ruby x Precious Stones)

NATURAL SPREAD: Horizontal: 7.1 cm; Vertical: 7.1 cm

DORSAL SEPAL: 1.7 cm WIDE; 4.2 cm LONG

PETAL: 2.6 cm WIDE; 3.6 cm LONG

LATERAL SEPAL: 1.7 cm WIDE; 4.1 cm LONG

LIP: 1.4 cm WIDE; 3.3 cm LONG

DESCRIPTION
Two well shaped burgundy red flowers on one inflorescence. Petals and sepals uniform burgundy red. Lip almost covering white column, bright canary yellow centrally, burgundy red distally and on all edges. Texture sparkling.

ON-LINE DISCUSSION

marilyninOttawa
Item 2 is an Slc. There has been one previous award made in 1995. For comparison, the former award was given to 3 well presented, full, flat flowers on one inflorescence. Flower color medium orange overlaid magenta; petals intensely overlaid magenta with yellow flare basally; substance sturdy; texture velvety. The former award, an AM of 82 points, measured 7.2 cm wide and 7.3 cm high. The lip measured 2.5 wide by 3.2 long.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Perky little thing! Any bicolor in it? What are its parents?

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Slc Rajah's Ruby x Slc Precious Stones. below the picture.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Actually, need grandparents and further back. Considerably under the others width and length, but not necessarily a 'fault'. Still, it isn't all that round, if that's a serious consideration to any. The problem with judging scans of slides is that the exposure which produces the best results *as a slide* produces muddy scans; underexposure.

marilyninOttawa
In answer to your question Earl, the hybrid is complex with S. coccinea, C. aclandiae, L. cinnabarina, L. tenebrosa and C. aurantiaca as well as C. dowiana and C. mossiae.

marylois
Earl - no bicolor It's about 35% acalandiae and 25% coccinea...about 12.5% of aurantiaca and tenebrosa - smaller amounts of dowiana, mossiae, purpurpata

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Left lateral sepal a little lower than right, or so it looks

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Real nice, given that parentage.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Wildcatt says it's Slc. Ruby Embers, 2 awards both AM.

marilyninOttawa
The color of this specimen was close to what you see, a vibrant burgundy red.

Clare in LA
And what's the problem with the flower in the back, or do I need to find my glasses?

marilyninOttawa
There is nothing wrong with the flower at the right. The white color of the visible column maybe stands out more.
There is a bit of ruffling along the petal top edge.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Yeah, there is a slight loss in symmetry there, though there's also a twist in the lip. Can't really tell if it's just that flower, or all on the inflorescence. Where is that cut lip coming from? Aclandiae seems rather a strong parent. Not that is a fault, simply an observation. Would love to see the slides of the other 2 awards. Really miss that aspect of judging.

marilyninOttawa
C. aclandiae is a strong parent, I agree.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Like the throat markings; hope they were a bit clearer on the original flowers.

marylois
In my estimation it is very 'round' 7.1 x 7.1 that's a clue! What it lacks, IMHO, is fullness. Petals ad Lip both less wide than awarded forms of same cross. ...so a perfectly round flower is out of balance because of a small lip...

marilyninOttawa
Yes Earl. Looking at the award slide, the lip is brighter with the red veining on the side lobes quite crisp.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
I stand corrected, ma'am!

marilyninOttawa
Any suggestions for an overall score? HCC, AM, ?

marylois
We are judging the one in front - and unless other one is deformed should not reduce score. Not AM for me.

marilyninOttawa
As I understand it, the flower facing front was the one measured/judged.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
I don't think the lip here is at all out of balance with the whole flower, though. It *would* be if it were more full. HCC.

marylois
Seems quite flat too...but midribs appear too defined.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
If you mean the lateral sepal, ml, I think that is more the lighting here.

marilyninOttawa
I have not seen the other awarded plant but it seems that the color is different; orange overlaid magenta. This flower is marginally smaller (1.0 mm smaller in spread).

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
I'd give about 78

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
The photographer should have moved his/her lighting out farther to the sides, IMHO.

marilyninOttawa
Any suggestions for points here?

marylois
Lips on the 2 AMs of record are larger with the AM 82 having a lip 2.5cm wide.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Art, 78 is what my score added up to as well.

platystele2
If only I knew how you all come up with these numbers....fascinating reading nonetheless....

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
The 1995 AM is .1cm larger, petal a little larger.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
I only do subjective judging. One reason I quit, though a very minor one.

marylois
77 for me...Earl - ribs in all sepals very deep.

kbbarrett
Thamina, do you take differences of .1cm into account in judging?

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
A strictly numerical judge might, kb.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
That small a size difference is nothing, so many different factors. Intensity of color, shape, health, etc.

marylois
1995 petals much wider - 3.4 versus this one 2.6 ... 1 cm when dealing with 2 or 3 cm is a lot.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
This subjective judging gives me new light on how I look at my plants now.

marilyninOttawa
It is possible that some of the same judges participated in the 1995 judging and so had first hand experience with this grex when they came to judge this one. Experience really helps when coming to judging decisions. This plant was awarded an AM of 81 points (Slc. Ruby Embers 'Hazel's Ruby')

kbbarrett
I'll tell you what I'm learning from all this. Not to bring in a previously awarded plant for judging!!! [I meant not to bring in a plant which has an award in its pedigree, therefore no standard to judge it by - KB]

marylois
Don't take it too seriously, Art - not too many AM's in the average greenhouse, but lots of wonderful flowers.

marilyninOttawa
Kathy. This is a different clone. IMHO, judges prefer to base their decisions on previous experience. Comments anyone?

marylois
Knew that was the Hazel's Ruby - but don't find it an AM photo.

kbbarrett
Marilyn, I'll bet trying to get the judges to break new ground is tough.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
From mine, previous experience can lead to bad calls, sometimes.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
How long does it take judges to judge a flower

marilyninOttawa
Good question Art. At shows, and after plants are selected for judging consideration, teams of the whole or of the part may deliberate for as little as 5 minutes or take 15 minutes or more to come to a decision. Behind the scenes, student judges are doing the background checks/research to present to the judging panel for comparison.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacavile, CA)
It can sometimes take a Long time, if the judges have a serious disagreement.

Hawkinsara (Slc. Pre-school x Cattleytonia Why Not)

NATURAL SPREAD: Horizontal: 4.8 cm; Vertical: 4.3 cm

DORSAL SEPAL: 1.1 cm WIDE; 2.8 cm LONG

PETAL: 2.0 cm WIDE; 2.8 cm LONG

LATERAL SEPAL: 1.2 cm WIDE; 2.7 cm LONG

LIP: 2.2 cm WIDE; 2.0 cm LONG

DESCRIPTION
Six flowers and 11 buds on three inflorescences. Sepals and petals brilliant sparkling carmine red; lip same proximally, butter yellow basally, column green basally becoming creamy yellow. A continuous band of fuschia joins the fuschia auricles across the crest of the column, anther cap white; substance heavy; texture crystalline.

ON-LINE DISCUSSION

Our third fun item tonight is a Hawkinsara (Slc. Pre-school x Ctna. Why Not) The latter parent is (Broughtonia sanguinea x C. aurantiaca) and is very dominant here. There have been two previous awards. 'Show Off' AM 80 points and 'Little Gem' AM 81 points. The natural spread of both was the same 4.0 cm. The lip dimensions were 'Show Off' 2.0 w x 2.4 l and for 'Little Gem' 1.9 w x 2.2 long.

kbbarrett
Wow, I'm impressed that a Hawkinsara got that big! I have one of the parents which is probably only an inch across. Nice color!

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
No, in my opinion, it very clearly reflects it's Ctna. parentage. Reminds me, shape wise, of a Keith Roth Looks like a malformed/deformed sepal.

kbbarrett
Yes, we've been having a run of poor right sepals tonight.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
What's Pre-school? Parentage, I mean.

marilyninOttawa
Pre-School is L. cinnabarina, S. coccinea (SL Psyche) crossed with C. aclandiae which in turn was crossed with S. cernua.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
Somebody sure likes red!

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Do judges judge individually or in groups? [They judge in assigned teams...mlg]

marilyninOttawa
On examining the slide, I can see what appears to be tiny white marks along the lower sepal edge. This could be 'dust' but I am not certain.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
I think it's a degradation in the slide, Marilyn.

jim4eq (Miami)
Or light reflecting off the 'crystalline' texture.

kbbarrett
Well, I was very critical this time cause I was so exuberant before, and was too harsh on the plant. Which seems better than the 2 AM's previously awarded. I gave it a 77

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
No evidence apparent of the aclandiae, as opposed to the previous flower!

MarilyninOttawa
You see that C. aclandiae and S. cernua are turning up again.

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Kathy. I gave it 77 too

kbbarrett
*G*!

marilyninOttawa
C. aclandiae may be influencing size and substance. This flower was a super Why Not.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
That sepal still bothers me, tho. Wish I could see the real flower!

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
Earl, I didn't care much for ANY of the sepals! Out of balance with the round petals.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Well, prankster, it isn't a Phallie, it's a cattleya alliance! *S* They're describing things we can't *see*! Has it been mericloned?

marilyninOttawa
I do not know if the plant has been mericloned.

jim4eq (Miami)
Earl needs virtual reality, could rotate flower.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
That might work!

marylois
I'd go on AM on this one due to fullness and color...and it's definitely a good combination of its two parents.

marilyninOttawa
The flowers are larger than the two previous awards but the flower count is a tad lower. The judges awarded this clone Hknsa. Toddler 'Lava Sparks' an AM of 81 points.

Blc. (Blc. Bouton D'Or x C. Bow Bells)

NATURAL SPREAD: Horizontal: 10.0 cm; Vertical: 13.7 cm

DORSAL SEPAL: 2.7 cm WIDE; 7.3 cm LONG

PETAL: 7.0 cm WIDE; 5.6 cm LONG

LATERAL SEPAL: 2.9 cm WIDE; 7.0 cm LONG

LIP: 4.5 cm WIDE; 6.2 cm LONG

DESCRIPTION
Two full formed flowers borne on one inflorescence of a first bloom seedling clearly exhibiting the best qualities of both parents; sepals and petals butter yellow; lip ruffled, butter yellow, intensifying to gold near column; substance average, texture matte.

The most recent award for Blc. Bouton D'Or was in 1982 (HCC 79 points) with four - 10 cm wide flowers on two inflorescences: flower pastel apricot blended with soft yellow; lip darker yellow with suffusion of light rose on edges, open over column, dorsal sepal reflexed slightly, firm substance and outstanding crystalline texture. No C. Bow Bells have been recently awarded but this is basically a large white Cattleya.

ON-LINE DISCUSSION

marilyninOttawa
Are you ready for a fourth?
This Blc has not any previous awards for comparison so we have to look to the parents for guidelines.

What you see in the picture is essentially what you see in the slide. One of the parents, Blc Bouton D'Or received an HCC, 79 points. Natural spread 10.0 cm, four flowers with well balanced sepals and petals on two inflorescences; flower pastel apricot blended with soft yellow; lip darker yellow with a suffusion of light rose on edges, open over column; dorsal sepal reflexed slightly; firm substance and outstanding crystalline texture. The lip measured 5.0 wide x 4.9 long.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA) That is *great* from first impressions.

marylois
I really have a problem with the cupping on this one. Either cupping or not enough substance to hold its petals...or both.

kbbarrett
Lois, or crowding?

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Hmmmm.... If we take the 'clearly exhibiting..' from the description, I think this flower would be more impressive in person, ML. It's not that bad, IMO. The 'cupping' is fairly typical of this type of thing, IMO.

marylois
No - could still open flat at that size...and let's face it, when they get 5+ inches wide, something has to overlap...wondering why they didn't take a picture into the face of one flower? Or were the lips askew as well?

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Trying to get both flowers in; great for slide shows, poor for award photo.

marilyninOttawa
As I understand it, the judges tell the photographer what to photograph, at least in our region. I think it might have been quite a challenge here to isolate one flower: they are close.

marylois
Yes, common - but IMO, not necessarily awardable in this day and age. For it's breeding, I'd like to see three flowers...not the minimum two.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
IMHO, a med-high to high-medium AM. Say 84.

marilyninOttawa
C. Bow Bells is an old white Cattleya. Bouton D'Or is quite complex in parentage with C. schroderae, C. dowiana and C. aurantiaca playing major roles. We should not forget B. digbyana which provides lip ruffling.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
I'll give this a score of 78.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Good point re flower #. Still an AM. So 81-82, maybe?

prankster d (Susan from NE Oregon)
I counted up 74 pts.

marylois
But Bouton D'Or (good ones) are so ROUND and FULL. Tell, me was this awarded?

marilyninOttawa
Yes, this clone has been awarded.

marylois
...to my dismay...*S* I would not nominate...if I scored - it would probably squeeze out a 75...from me.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Still, ML, it's half Bow Bells (which rarely has a truly full shape, and has aurantiaca in the other side.

marilyninOttawa
What do you see as the main characteristic that would either keep in the HCC category or bump it into the AM zone?

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
If the photog had shot full-on to one flower, we would better be able to judge the 'cupping'.

peeteilis (springlike in KY)
That dorsal sepal looks as if it had been held up, forward, for a day or so. Bow Bells had the bad habit of dropping the DS back the second or third day it was open.

marilyninOttawa
These flowers look very fresh; i.e., recently opened, but one cannot be certain.

marylois
Welllll...looking at on-line photo versus the smaller one I printed out...and the dorsal is wide - ya gotta give it full. And the color would grab...I pass.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
The dimple, peetelis? Have to see the real flower to judge that.

peeteilis (springlike in KY)
Yes, the almost 'S' shape of the sepal.

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Lois, if you and Earl had been judging this flower at a show how would you resolve your conflicts?

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
By mature discussion, hopefully. though......

marylois
He would score his score, I would score mine, and it would likely go to another team because of an over 6-point spread. *G*

jim4eq (Miami)
Pistils at 20 paces

kbbarrett
Good one, Jim!

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Basically, Art, like we did it here, though face to face and with more detail (shouting, cursing, wringing of hands....)

marylois
Certainly, Earl, but I can't see you cutting your score...and I could be pressed into maybe one more point. *LOL*

kbbarrett
You really hate it that much, eh, Lois?

marylois
Not hate, KB...just wary of that shape...and just cause it's a photo, can't raise my score on a 'probably'...in person, it could be a knock-out.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
She isn't seeing the flower, KB, she's trying to judge a slide (though she might have the slides itself, or at least access to it).

kbbarrett
Earl, but judges judge flowers all the time, you've all admitted, by the photos in the AQ! So what's the diff? Maybe I should say 'compare'...

marilyninOttawa
Having photos does limit us but maybe it will not be long before virtual judging!

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Do judges get rather heated at each other from time to time?

marylois
It's supposed to be fun! *G* I've yet to see a fight. I've seen obstinence...but that's what the six-point spread rule is for.*S*

marilyninOttawa
I expect that this plant caught the interest of one judge who brought it to the after-show AOS judging session for consideration.

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
I really like that color, without seeing it in person I'll give it 80. I think it would look better straight on.

marylois
Me, too, Thamina. Yes, Marilyn - and if nominated, and point scored, it might eke out more points than one imagined. I like breeding with the old standbys, but I don't care for floppiness.

marilyninOttawa
I wonder how many of you not in the judging system sit in on point judging sessions?

kbbarrett
Well, I was going this month till I saw I have a conflict with another orchid meeting!! It never ends!

platystele2
I'm not a judge, but it is fun to sit in on this!

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
Never been to orchid show. Can general public sit in on judging?

marilyninOttawa
Ask the Chief Judge if you may. Some regions differ on this. There is usually limited seating.

jim4eq (Miami)
I do, Marilyn, at local society meetings and Miami show (AOS).

platystele2
I've only seen orchid judges in action in shows.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Often, in the press of show judging, things are sometimes overlooked. Used to go through the exhibits during the shows, then ask some friends who were judges why it wasn't judged. Overlooked was surprisingly frequent.

kbbarrett
Actually, I've judged a show! Admittedly, it was all in fun, but Fordyce, me and another lady judged the Stockton OS show last year.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
How'd you compare to the 'real' judges? *BG*

AORCHID (art, simpsonville sc)
When do they normally judge flowers, 1st day or when? [The same day the displays were put in if an evening judging was scheduled, otherwise the next morning...mlg]

kbbarrett
I think pretty well!! In this case it was easy! There were so few plants in each category that any showing up got a ribbon. It only got tough judging best of show. It gave me a new view on ribbon judging, that's for sure!

platystele2
Sometimes a plant in a display is not up for ribbon judging and so it can get lost in the shuffle because there are so many other plants under consideration....

marylois
Good for you, Kathy! I really like it when society members are included in ribbon judging teams!
The adage 'it's gotta catch your eye' is doubled in a show situation. And, Kathy, there is a difference between show judging and AOS award judging.

marilyninOttawa
This Blc. Beaux Boutons 'Wilma' was awarded an HCC of 79 points in 1995.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Yeah, like how to judge between things in the same class, but totally different!

Lanceps (Thamina from Manhattan Beach, Calif.)
When we judge at Santa Barbara show, the students and clerks can help with ribbon judging in the morning and AOS in the afternoon.

marilyninOttawa
I enjoy ribbon judging and often sit in on the deliberations. I prefer botanicals but sometimes get landed with a team assigned masses of Phalaenopsis.*G*

marylois
Marilyn, with your background, you would be team chief!
In show judging, you are judging plants present and entered in the same class against one another...award judging is against 'a hypothetical standard of perfection AT THE TIME; qualities of previously known plants of comparable type and breeding, and extent these characteristics are an improvement.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Well said, ML. couldn't a said....

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
In Hawaii, the award judging always preceded the ribbon judging. Rarely, an awarded plant would be beat out in a particular category for a ribbon.

marylois
Last time I was in HI, the plants were pre-screened (I guess by the HI contingent)... a judge could nominate something else though.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Things may have (probably had to) change since I left...

marilyninOttawa
Well that is it for this fun judging session. Must fly as it is our Orchid Society auction tomorrow. Thankfully, the temperature has risen from a very cold -31C to a tolerable -2C.

marylois
Before you go, Marilyn -- Did you actually see that Bouton D'Or cross?

marilyninOttawa
Yes, Lois, I did see it. I have seen all the awarded material presented tonight.

marylois
Did it look better than the photo? *she asked worriedly*

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
So how was the yellow catt in reality?

marilyninOttawa
It looked almost exactly like the photo.

UncleEarl (Earl in Vacaville, CA)
Told Ya! What was the award again? (HCC 79 points)

marylois
hmmmmmmm

marilyninOttawa
I am not certain exactly what impressed the judges. It was a large, full yellow and it may have been the fullness that impressed. I think of Malworth and I wonder but........