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Present were:
Barbara (northern CA)
sparkysteve (Boca Raton FL)
RayBark
whapy_in_Biggin_Hill (Great Britain)
UncleEarl (Vacaville CA)
Zeynep (Wilimington NC)
janetteh
jim4eq (Jim - Miami FL)
ahorchid (Art - Simpsonville SC)
Brad Winnicki (Sault Ste Marie MI)
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
K_Barrett (northern CA)
Ed_in_SAT (San Antonio TX)
MarilyninOttawa
Morry - New!
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks - New!
orchidcoop (Marc - CA)
Ellensmithown (NY)
Thamina (Manhattan Beach CA)
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
10birch (Paul - Saginaw MI)
Jose from Toronto
framer (Sharon - Indiana)
K_Barrett
OK folks! Our speaker tonight is Ray Barkalow of First Rays Orchids, to talk on hydroponics. Take it, Ray! [I've always wanted to say that! --KB]
RayBark
OK, the subject is hydroponics, and welcome to all. I really don't want to pontificate here... I'll answer questions as I see them; if I don't reply, it's not due to an attitude, it's due to not seeing it...please retry. As we have probably all read, MOST orchid growing is hydroponic by nature.
K_Barrett
Ray, how did you start growing orchids in hydroponic conditions? How does this differ from plain old water culture?
RayBark
I started with "HP" as a result of poor quality bark. I'm a Ceramic Engineer by education, and have always loved experimenting. Orchid growing and observing them led me to some basic culture tenets. I noticed that the keys to orchid success were uniform moisture - not too much - and lots of air. Styro peanuts were good for air, but not for moisture. I searched for a medium that was a good balance.
MarilyninOttawa
Which genera/species work best in this setup for you, Ray? [A post-addition I started with paphiopedilum, and was thrilled with the
result. From there I've gone to pretty much everything. Cymbidiums, oncidiums and zygopetalums also thrive. -Ray]
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
Ray, when did you first start trying hydroponic growing for orchids?
K_Barrett
Was this about the time Rob Halgren was looking in to the use of 'mud' for his plants? Let's say 3-4 yrs ago?
RayBark
Nope, way before Rob's article. There was an AOS article several years ago that dealt with growing pleuothallids in 1/4" perlite. I think we can all agree that orchid growing is hydroponic, or mostly so, as little to nothing comes from the medium. The keys - again - are moisture and air. It almost doesn't matter what the medium is, although I do have ideas for my own situation.
Ed_in_SAT
"Big John"Pierce had an article on perlite culture in an early 80's Bulletin.
RayBark
The '80's article is probably the one I'm referring to.
New_User
Don't orchids grow "hydroponically" anyway, since there is no real soil?
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
I remember that in the early 1950's an orchid company out here used hydroponics and filled concrete vats with pea gravel. They had the most beautiful Phals I have ever seen.
sparkysteve
Ray I saw hydroponics at Disneyworld--they use no medium at all--and their plants are rotated--I thought that was "hydroponics".
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Ray that is usually true but what about plants that are terrestrial? They get something from their medium I am sure.
New_User
I don't understand, Ray.
Zeynep
Steve, they also use perlite with some of their plants....
RayBark
Spark, That was either "aeroponics," with a constant mist, or an Ebb-and flow" system. I am concerned about both due to the possibility of virus transmittal. [Definitions Aeroponics - no medium, moisture and nutrition supplied to root systems by constant or periodic misting. Ebb-and-flow - inert medium is used to anchor plants, and the root zone is periodically flooded with nutrient solution. Most often, both utilize a many plants per chamber setup, hence the virus concern for orchids. - Ray]
Ed_in_SAT
I suspect most aeroid nutrient is hydroponic or atmospheric - in nature or not.
RayBark
You're probably right, Ed.
Any way... the perlite @ 1/4 inch was too dense for my liking, so I experimented a great deal. I decided that a particle size of 1/2" was probably good for me, but what to use??? My vanda experience, plus the ion-exchange factor led me to charcoal, but it didn't hold enough moisture. Thinking back to perlite, but coarser, led me to the coarse spongerock I often use now.
orchidcoop
How about irregular small 1/2 inch or so pieces of clay?
ahorchid
Is coarse spongerock just a coarse perlite?
RayBark
Yes, spongerock is just coarse perlite, and I have come to really like the fired clay pellets available. One of the complaints about the clay medium is the buildup of salts.
orchidcoop
leach - leach - leach
RayBark
As that is a malady affecting almost all media, I find that a quarterly to semiannual feeding with magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salts) is particularly beneficial.
Ellensmithown
Ray, how much epson salts per gallon?
RayBark
Epsom SaltsI use 1 tsp/gallon about 4 x per year. I have heard of 1tbsp/gallon, but haven't tried it. Mg is essential for chlorophyll
production, so a shot every now and then is a bonus, anyway.
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
Ray, I'm switching to the Grow Roks on my larger plants. You say salts can be a problem, how often do you have to flush with citric acid or epson salts? I'm using the Grow Roks, but not in hydroponics. [see above - Ray]
RayBark
As I've been dominating the chat so far...let me propose that the keys to successful orchid culture (ignoring for the moment lighting conditions) is a combo of moisture, nutrition, and air.
Barbara
Very true, Ray. I have so many fans in my greenhouse, nothing can attach to the plants.
K_Barrett
Ray, a definition of terms 'Aeoponics' and 'ebb and flow' (for the transcripts)
Marc Golding
I have been told that "airflow" is important! But can someone explain why or how? What's the mechanism or reasoning behind having air flow?
jim4eq
Well, air flow also helps to keep down mold mildew bacteria.
RayBark
Marc, you're dead on there. Roots produce carbon dioxide as they absorb and incorporate nutrients. Air is needed to both flush the area clean, and to provide fresh oxygen.
janetteh
Sometimes it is a trade off though between the amount of air flow that you need and keeping the plants wet enough.
Marc Golding
I thought the leaves would love the CO2? Is that only part of the story?
Ed_in_SAT
Air movement is also essential to gas exchange. This provides carbon (from carbon dioxide) to the photosynthetic processes that manufacture the sugar/starch complexes essential to plant growth.
RayBark
Yep, during daylight, leaves do absorb CO2, but the roots are pretty much always producing it, and I doubt that any of us have a closed system - if that can exist in this realm - so we must always provide air to the roots to keep them refreshed.
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
What media do you prefer to use in hydroponics in orchids?
Ed_in_SAT
I suspect any relatively inert material can grow orchids if the particle size can be controlled to reasonable dimensions. Erwin Baird did an article for the Bulletin - mid 60's - on gravel culture and Roger Grier did something on the subject for the Orchid Review fairly recently. I suspect a high-quartz gravel is preferred since marble gravel would provide an over-abundance of Calcium.
janetteh
We have some dends growing in pea gravel and they are doing well.
RayBark
Look, it's really quite simple - find the medium that allows you to grow orchids under your current "time-environmental" conditions. If you ain't got the time, you'd better find a medium that won't rot roots between long periods of rewatering.
MarilyninOttawa
I was wondering if you have tried hydroponics with Paphs? Does it work well?
[I started with paphs...they LOVE it! - Ray]
jim4eq
Marilyn, I know Venger has done well with paphs in water culture, slightly different from Ray's semi-hydroculture.
RayBark
Jim, While it may be great, I worry about water cultures need for stabilized temperature and wonder about the oxygen flow to the root system if you don't
supplement it.
orchidcoop
I don't believe water culture is the same as hydro culture.
Ellensmithown
How expensive is the initial setup for say 150 orchids?
RayBark
Ellen, The cost is merely the medium, and the accessories needed to provide constant food and moisture. One of the benefits of the clay pellets is the fact that they are reusable. I have paphs that have been in the same pot of spongerock and charcoal for 4 years, and they are doing great.
Zeynep
That I like to learn and see if I can do it in my environment.
RayBark
Z, There's no reason why not.
janetteh
Trying to understand the mechanism here, Ray. Do you have the plants in an inert medium and then have them sitting in water or a water/fertilizer solution?
Barbara
Ray, I tried the 'miracle rock' on about 10 plants, it didn't work well at all. It dries too fast, even with my heavy watering hand. [Barbara, I don't know what "Miracle Rock" is, but there's more to this than just the medium... AND, different media lead to different root types, so it may take time to get plants acclimated - Ray]
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
Ray...Where do you live?
RayBark
Again, constant moisture + lots of air = great roots
Jose_Toronto
Ray, do you have the list of sources for the clay pellets? Would they be available in Canada? [No list here. We have them, but shipping to Canada might be prohibitive. Contact Clargreen Gardens in Missisauga, they might be able to find them - Ray]
10birch
Ray, is it essential that the mixture you use is light to let the water flow thru or should it be just heavy enough to hold a little water?
[It should be porous enough to "wick" moisture and nutrients up from the bottom, and coarse enough to allow lots of airflow to the root system. Weight of the medium is not really the issue - Ray]
orchidcoop
You need a container within a container that way you provide the nutrient and air flow for the roots.
Zeynep
Do you have information about growing Paphs and Phrags hydroponically...?
RayBark
Dan, I'm in PA, just above Philly. However, the concepts have proved true from Atlanta to Louisville to Charleston, SC to NJ to here.
jim4eq
Plus my pots arrived, so will soon have a report from Miami as well!
janetteh
Ray, please explain the potting system that you use. Pot within a pot???
orchidcoop
1 container with the roots and plant and an outer container with the nutrient.
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
How often are you flushing the nutrient solution through the Grow Roks or Aliflor! Seems there are so many names for the clay pellets!
K_Barrett
Jim, what are you putting in Hydro? Surely not your ekki-tants.
RayBark
Let's see if I can catch up. Paphs and phrags do especially well. Nothing special...constant food and water, plus lots of air. I Firstray's carry the clay pellets - soon to be on the list, but I swear that any moisture-holding, air providing mix will do. [Hmmm...lousy "catch-up" job. I use 2 types of pots mesh pot (holds plant and medium) in solid outer pot (holds solution), and my own solid-bottomed pot with holes in side 1" up from bottom (bottom inch is reservoir) - Ray]
jim4eq
No Kathy, the eeky-taints (note the *proper* spelling LOL) would turn their toes up. But I noticed that my best onc had roots down to the water catcher I use for humidity. When I pulled it out, the roots were about a foot long down in the water.
Ed_in_SAT
A commercial grower client has Paphs in Aliflor and they are doing very well with no special attention. I've not found it best for my own growing but those who like it really like it!
RayBark
Kath, The "equitants" like it too.
jim4eq
Ok Ray, I'll try some of my equitants. I may have a few ready to repot, out of the 150-200.
Ed_in_SAT
Ever notice how many fresh-bought equitants have circular roots on that cute little plaque? They were grown in pots and potted to sell to the touristas!.
RayBark
I have used Aliflor with great success, but have found a better quality version. Aliflor is nothing but a clay pellet that is spherical, has a dense outer surface, but a porous interior to maintain the moisture.
10birch
Ed what is aliflor ?
Ed_in_SAT
A vitrified clay medium. Comes in three sizes. Largest two are most used for orchids. Small size used as a soil amendment for terrestrials.
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
Ed, I probably water to often, and with our humidity in the area, The aliflor works well for me! I've noticed the Sponge Rok and Charcoal without the promix or Metro mix have excellent roots as well! Although I am concerned about the salt build up with the aliflor!
Ed_in_SAT
I doubt salt buildup will be much of a problem in Aliflor. Certainly not as much as in hadite. In perlite, watch for Fluoride problems.
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
Thanks, Ed!
RayBark
As a ceramic engineer, I love 'em by default... But not until I tried them for myself.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
Ray, adding to the question overload, how often do you soak the hydroponic medium?
orchidcoop
Ray, how many plants do you grow hydro culture?
RayBark
If you're going to use the classic hydroponic pot (= inner basket of clay pellets plus outer pot to hold nutrients), I'd suggest watering only minimally. The stuff wicks just fine.
10birch
I have mixed bark and Fafard mix 52 equal parts and find that it get a little hard on the top. Help!
RayBark
All of my personal collection is hydroponic. Resale stuff is often in sphagnum to reduce weight for shipping costs.
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
Again....How many times are you flushing the nutrient solution through the aliflor?
RayBark
I water my collection about weekly, but the pots I use are designed to drain down to a reservoir, so - essentially - I can't overwater
10birch
Ray when do you put them in moss? Just for shipping or growing them?
RayBark
Birch. If I've acquired a plant for me, it's in hydroponics. If it's for resale, it goes into moss immediately. Remember...moss is hydroponic, too.
orchidcoop
Ray, do you grow a varied group of orchids hydro?
RayBark
The only plant I've not tried in hydro is vanda... everything else loves it.
jim4eq
I've noticed that the way I water (hose), the alifor is too loose so I add sponge rock and charcoal. when i fill the pot with water, the aliflor floats up.
[If the pellet has time to absorb liquid, it will sink. I find that the charcoal/sponge rock mix is very light, so I add a layer of pea gravel at the top to hold it down. Probably work with aliflor, too. - Ray]
Ed_in_SAT
Do you have styro peanuts in the bottom of your pots?
jim4eq
No, I use large aliflor on the bottom. Also noticed that if I water more slowly, aliflor doesn't float like when hose if full strength.
New_User
Would those self-watering pots with a reservoir and an absorbent strip work for orchids? Filled with clay pellets?
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
Ray, I would think watering once a week would be too far apart! Are you in clay or plastic pots. I assume plastic. Your saying your hydroponic system only waters or cycles one time a week? I'm missing something here?
[I water by hand... - Ray]
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
semi- hydroponic
RayBark
My own "semi-hydroponic" pots (really just a way to separate them from others) have a small reservoir to hold moisture at the bottom. They can't be overfilled, as they drain to a specific level. Putting a mesh pot into a tray of liquid achieves the same thing. THAT'S why a week or more is no problem.
Ellensmithown
How much water does the outer pot hold?
orchidcoop
The outer pot has an indicator, which shows you how much fluid is in the pot.
RayBark
The self-watering pots work great. BUT... You can over fill them for orchids. Those with gauges need to be watered only until the gauge just budges...
10birch
Ray do you have an open house at any time to see your hydroponics?
RayBark
A VERY important point: Roots appear to develop in response to the medium and general conditions. Bark/aliflor/water culture all take different cells. Changing is traumatic and takes time - although it appears to occur with only slight setbacks.
Barbara
Boy, that would cost you an arm and leg to buy 3 or 4 hundreds of that kind of pots.
orchidcoop
You don't kill your plants and have healthy plants to rebloom.
framer
Would it be better to start a seedling in hydroponics rather than an older plant?
RayBark
Framer, I don't think it matters much. The plant will have to grow new, accustomed roots to the new condition, no matter what its level of maturity.
Jose41822
I would like to know where I could get hold of the pots with gauges. Are they available in any hydroponics store?
orchidcoop
You can get them at Interior Water Gardens, advertising in Orchids.
RayBark
Jose, I'll have 'em soon, although there are lots of other outlets (Hydrofarm)
Jose41822
Thanks. I don't think Hydrofarm has an outlet in Toronto. [but they are on the Web -KB]
orchidcoop
Ray do you vary the watering at all for phrags, paph, catts? I found that my catts had to go dry, phrags and paphs love to have their feet wet and phals never go real dry.
RayBark
Orchidcoop, nope, everything is watered equally.
framer
Do you know what kind of experiences growers have had with this system in the midwest? Just curious about different conditions from those in Florida.
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
Ray are the roots constantly in the solution? Do you have to aerate the solution?
Marc
Ray are the roots constantly in the solution? Do you have to aerate the solution? Good question! I was going to ask that too!
RayBark
Dan, If you do it right, the roots are only immersed when you water. Immediately afterwards, they are in a damp, airy environment, and stay ther until it dries completely, or you water again. A serious hydroponic grower wondered if the drain hole plus coarseness of the mix allowed much airflow, but I have not seen a problem.
Dan_from_Wharton,_Texas
Thanks...then what is the resevoir for? To collect the solution and recirculate it next watering?
New_User
The self-watering pots have a hole an inch or two from the bottom and can't be overfilled. Would one also have to drill holes at different levels to provide air?
K_Barrett
Ray, you'd better describe the system to us! Got any pictures (from your webpage??) you can post? type the URL in and it should bring up a picture - worth 1000 words! Assuming you know the URLs, hehe! Lord knows I forget them as soon as I put them on the webpage!!
Jose41822
I fully agree.
RayBark
Kath, I wish... My setup totally closed plastic container. Put holes in SIDE about an inch up from the bottom. When you water (fill the sucker to the top), it both saturates the medium and drains down to the holes. The reservoir at the bottom replenishes the moisture for a long time. I have not overwatered a plant in several years, thanks to that setup.
orchidcoop
AMEN
K_Barrett
Ray! Got you!!
jim4eq
Here's the url for the culture sheet.
RayBark
I beleive it's time for me to quit also. Feel free to contact me directly at raybark@firstrays.com. Good night, all. Good growing!
K_Barrett
Well, thanks Ray! It was great, like I said, we've never had so many new faces here for a topic! I'll be sending you a transcript for further comments/elucidations!
Zeynep
Ray, appreciate your time and the information you shared with us. Thank you again.
framer
This chat system works a lot better than WBS. Didn't get kicked off once. Thank you Ray for sharing your experience with hydroponics. Just bookmarked your site this afternoon. Interesting.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
Goodnight Ray and thanks!
janetteh
Thanks, Ray
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