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daniel2 (Jim Brasch - Montreal, Quebec, Canada)
marylois (northern Louisiana)
peeteilis (Tom - Algonquin Island KY)
Barbara_N._CA
10birch_Paul_Saginaw MI
Thomas_in_Richmond,_VA
Zeynep (Wilmington NC)
Sparkysteve (Steve, Boca Raton FL)
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks (NY)
Ed_in_Sat (San Antonio TX)
Paula (Boca Raton FL)
John (Arcadia CA)
Thomas (Richmond VA)
foxtail (Doug - Palm Harbour FL)
Clare_in_Arcadia (CA)
Joflo (Owen Sound Ont)
Dig Orchids (Doug - Houston TX)
James (Fresno CA)
Neil (Israel)
daniel2
Hello Orchid Safari regulars. I am here to chat about plant hormones/regulators. Please let me know if I am in the right place and have company. Jim Brasch
Barbara
Hi Jim, you are in the right place. We chat all Orchids.
Zeynep
Welcome Jim, are you into orchids or hormones?
daniel
My orders from Lois Greer were to talk about plant regulators.
10birch
What are plant regulators?
Zeynep
Jim so you are our speaker, I guess you need to lead the group, and we will listen.
sparkysteve
OK Jim--the floor is yours.
daniel2
Plant regulators are artificial chemical hormones that emphasize natural tendencies of plants. The chief use in orchids is for the production of keikis.
Zeynep
Jim, do we have stay with orchids on this topic or are you going to cover hormones general?
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
Oh, good. I used keiki paste on two Phals and didn't get anything.
daniel2
The keikis are useful to produce "insurance" plants (in case of a flood!, etc.) and can also rescue crown-damaged monopodial orchis, especially phals, vandas, etc.
10birch
Where do you get the keiki paste
Ed_in_SAT
We used BAP years ago, Jim. (Benzyl-amino purines). Must be something much better by now.
daniel2
My chief interest is in expanding the use of regulators into plants other than orchids, but I have to admit that my own experience is focused on orchids and some weird succulents, outdoor plants, etc.
10birch
Why does it reduce crown rot?
daniel2
BAP has been refined, but is still available. My website is at Carson Whilow's
"orchidmall.com/hormones" Or if you just type Brasch into Netscape you will get it eventially--after you get past my daughter's company "Brasch Communications". No advertising here! you to look at my web page at orchidmall.com/hormones. There is a slide show there describing the process.
Regulators will not reduce crown rot, but they can be used to start adventitious buds into growth so that a new plant on the old roots will be formed.
10birch
Where do ou apply the paste? at the crown? at the nodes?
daniel2
It depends on the plant. There is a dormant bud at the base of every leaf. If applied at the right time (different for every plant) it can be forced into growth. This has proved helpful for otherwise un-propagatable (is that a word?) African violet chimeras and some Nepenthes.
Jade-in-GR
I understand the principle but the big question is how do you know the "right time"?
10birch
Where on a phalaenopsis? Are there any phals that will not have any effect on the production of a keiki?
daniel2
On Phals, to produce keikis, the paste must be applied to the nodes on the stem after removing the bract. As for timing, it should be applied about one week after the last flower on the stem has opened. At that time the plant is producing itsown cytokinins and this gives it a boost.
Ed_in_SAT
We stimulated dormant buds right at the "collar" of a Phal in June and havewhat looks like a bloom spike about the size of a sturdy lead pencil and 12" long. At the end is a large plantlet with, as yet, no roots. You never know!
Jade-in-GR
I have a phal that sends out keikis at just that spot. Of course, it isn't the norm.
John_in_Arcadia
I quit completely and restarted and now things are working MUCH better!!
peeteilis
Jim, you mention hormones to produce, or stimulate plant production, but aren't there other hormones, to induce blooming, dormancy?
daniel2
Oh yes, there are many more hormones that produce roots, ripening, enlarging flowers, etc. There are about 125 giberellins alone and all have distinct characteristics. The hormones function in every cell of a plant since plants don't have central nervous systems like humans.
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Jim, Is there a definite time when your hormones are no longer any good? A time limit that is on the effectiveness of it?
daniel2
I suggest a shelf life of one year, but my chemical company insists on 3 years and I have used successfully keiki paste that is over 8 years old.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
You mean like an expiration date, right?
paulav_in_Boca_Raton
Should the pastes be refrigerated?
daniel2
Refrigeration is not necessary. The warmer the paste is (lanolin) the easier it is to massage into the plant tissue.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
OK Jim, tell me the truth. The Keiki paste I used that didn't work was "brand X". Should I order some from you?
daniel2
Truth is a funny word when it comes to plants. No one else seems to be advertising the stuff at the moment although I am beginning to hear of a few possible sources. Selby used to sell it and a place in Rochester, xeroxed all my instructions, but produced a comparable product. I tested it and had no results. The crucial element is proportion. Some growers have tried just
rubbing the hormone on the plant. That's like using fertilizer that is 100-100-100.
As for ordering from me, you should look at the web site and decide. Just received a huge order from OFE today and I should be down stairs mixing. Be careful of any paste that uses vaseline. It is phytotoxic and could kill your plant. Lanolin is not--even used im many cosmetic preparations.
paulav_in_Boca_Raton
Steve, this is an unsolicited comment on the effectiveness of Jim's pastes... I know of at least three other hobbyist growers other than myself who have used them with great success. I even got a recalcitrant cattleya bare root to put out new, strong roots and push out an eye bud in a very short time.
Zeynep
Jim, are there any hormones which would induce plant growth on some Cattleyas that only grow one direction so that we can get more vegetative growth?
Jade-in-GR
Paula, thanks. It always good to get possitive feedback from users.
Clare_in_Arcadia
Zeynep, here, here. What can we do for the catts.
daniel2
Al comments pos and neg appreciated. My hobby at the RBG is to go through the garbage and take the back growths that have been discarded and take them home and rub the dormant buds with the paste and then return them. Have two Onc. splendidum bulbs in growth at the moment.
Fleur
Is the product available in Australia?
Jade-in-GR
That sounds like fun!
Barbara,_N._CA
Jim have you tried on Vanda?
daniel2
As for Cats, Keikipaste has been very successful in pushing dormant back BUDS into growth. This replaces the older method of wounding the plant and trying to get it to re-start itself. The same hormone works in EVERY plant - Orchids are nothing special. The benzyladenine or BA causes cells to differentiate--not grow.
Clare_in_Arcadia
What do AOS judges think about the use of hormones to invigorate growth, less say to make a specimen plant?
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
The one I tried seems to be in lanolin all right. I did get some results, just not a keiki. On one plant, put it on a lower bud which didn't grow but then it produced new flowers from the end which opened deformed with extra parts. Comments?
10birch__Paul,_Saginaw,_M
Is this the same Keiki paste that comes from Canada?
Zeynep
What you are suggesting is Keikipaste which is used on Phals will do the trick on Catts, is that right?
ahorchid@aol.com-simpson
Anyone ever tried product on blind bud in sheath of cattleya. could it cause flower buds to start growth?
daniel2
Have been glancing through Orchids Australia for the correct address, but can't find it. It is on the web site or drop me an e-mail and I will send it to you. Had long letter from David Banks today and he could direct you.
Zeynep
Have one more question!!! For Camellias, in order to get large flower for showing they use Gib. acid. Can that be used on orchid flowers to get larger flowers for showing, if so when is a good time to use it?
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
I was just wondering the exact same thing.
10birch__Paul,_Saginaw,_M
Where do you get Gib acid. I read somewhere that it will work on orchids.
daniel2v Hey, I am Canadian. Don't I sound like one! Judges will have a terrible time when giberellins become popular. Little research has been done with them, but flower size could be affected. I expect a package of a preparation from Russia in the next few days. They did a lot of research (before the fall) with gibs to increase crop yield. This research has dropped, but the product is in wide use.
Zeynep
I have not used Gib acid, but I have seen it used. Also, I do not send my orchids for judging, I love them for mine and others enjoyment, but would love to experiment.
daniel2
Gib-3 is readily available from Sigma--if you can convince them to sell it to you. Not easy. I did some research about 15 years ago with gibs, but I found results mixed and so would not sell the products. I am quite certain that Keikigrow plus works--if you follow instructions, but gibs are fooling with genes and scares me off.
Clare_in_Arcadia
I can see it now, steroid testing similar to athletes!
Ed_in_SAT
I can't speak for the judging community as a whole, but these treatments do not give me any judging concern. Gibs have been around a long time and we've managed to cope.
daniel2
i will do some experiments with the preparation coming from Russia and if it proves interesting, post it, or write an article . AOS is doing anarticle on plant regulators by me in March, but I doubt if I will have significantdata by then.
Clare_in_Arcadia
Ed, in my book you're El Jefe.
Jade-in-GR
Clare, I had the same thoughts exactly!
daniel2
You probably eat a good proportion of gibs every day.
Jade-in-GR
Will this consumption alter my genes?
Ed_in_SAT
We treated a Doritis pulcherrima var. Buyssoniana with retardants several years ago and produced one 4 ft spike and one 2 ft spike with identical flowers. This plant was fully discussed at a judging meeting and no reason was found to disqualify - at least on the grounds of method of growth.
daniel2
Well, they are supposed to enhance growth!!
Jade-in-GR
I'm happy at 5'5" and sure don't want to grow any other way!
daniel2
Your genes will be altered only if you are a mouse.
daniel2
I don't think there is any real concern for judging to come out of plant regulators. I just like to kid them a little bit. They are a pretty serious bunch. I can see no difference between using hormones and fertilizers. The latter don't see to be a problem.
Jade-in-GR
Thanks, Daniel, but there's nothing mousy about me.
Ed_in_SAT
Heavy on that, Jim, judges are real serious!!!!!! This crowd tends to forget that. LOL
joflo
Daniel - Are you a student at Mac?
Fleur
We don't forget Ed, we may ignore......
daniel2
I think a judge that depends on a lamp that obviously has a genie in it, can't be too serious.
No I am a retired professor from Mac. Taught there from 1966-1995. Mac is McMaster University, 10,000 full time students. Located in Hamilton Ontario a"steel town" on the west end of Lake Ontario. I live in Burlington, a suburb, about 30 miles (45 kms) from downtown Toronto.
Fleur
Jim, you are just "spot on".
Clare_in_Arcadia
Have you noticed a difference in flower size between species and hybrids?
joflo
I visit in Burlington frequently - would it be worth my while to visit Mac and tour the greenhouses?
daniel2
Do you mean between using hormones and not using them? The plants produced with Keikigrow Plus are clones. No difference in plant or flowers.
Clare_in_Arcadia
No, but that really answers the question I should have asked.
I'm still trying to figure out where I would apply the hormone to a blind sheath on a catt? Do I slit and go inside?
paulav_in_Boca_Raton
Jim, for growers in the Northern Hemisphere, would it be advisable to hold off using keiki paste as we near winter?
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
That's what I assume.
daniel2
Why would you apply anything to a blind sheath? Blind is blind. As for winter, it makes no difference. The paste MUST be applied after the blooming stops. Applying before will usually produce more flowers. the weather outside is irrelevant.
Clare_in_Arcadia
Gee, Paula, I've got new growths starting now on many. I'd guess you'd apply when it's "their season".
Jade-in-GR
Yes, I just had a S. wardii bloom. It had 3 flowers and lasted almost 5 days. A lovely scent. They have to be grown in baskets since the spikes come out from the root area. The Gongora send their spikes a bit higher so they can be in pots if planted high. Some of them have a nice scent as well but not as pronounced. Neither scent hits you like a Catt. but you know they are
there. I have been holding off sending things because I didn't know if it would be delayed by the flood stuff. Sure don't want live plants to languish in some warehouse.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
The paste MUST be applied after the blooming stops. Applying before will usually produce more flowers. OK, what about Phals that usually have the stem die down right after the flowers fade? Can we cut off the flowers and then apply?
Jim, I have a Cattleya plant which is 10 bulbs, but it only gives one growth a year and it is out of the pot and keep on going only one direction... Can you tell me when I can put the kekiegrowth on some of the back bulbs to add different direction to the growth also exactly where and how to apply the paste? Thanks
Clare_in_Arcadia I apologize for not following more carefully, and am very new to this idea. But, do I understand that this will either increase flower size or produce new growth depending on when it is applied?
daniel2
I think the only Phals that have a spike die off immediately are schilleriana and stuartiana. They and their hybrids are difficult to get keikis on. You can cheat a little and apply a bit early (generally not helpful) or pinch the buds off the tip and then apply. The problem is to give the natural cytokinin an extra boost.
Zeynep
Keikigorw Plus has nothing to do with flower size. Any hormonal affect would come from giberellins. I have done a little research on this, but nothing conclusive. As I stated before if I learn anything about the Russian experience I will share it. I was supposed to go as a consultant to Socchi in S. Russia, but I missed a good opportunity to see what they were doing. Met people in Moscow, but Aeroflot was out for me.
sparkysteve
Jim have you ever applied the hormone to a root -- especially Phals? I have seen root propagation once but I didn't apply anything to it.
Clare_in_Arcadia
Thanks, that did clear it up. And I can definatley relate to AirYak
neil
Hi all!! Clare Hi. Perhaps you have the chemical names of a fungicide that I asked for last week?
daniel2
Rooting is a completely different proposition. Keikigrow (the differentiator) is a root inhibitor. The common rooting hormone is IBA--Indole-butric acid. It usually comes in powder form and so in a wet environment it washes off before it accomplishes anything. In lanolin it stays in place for at least 5 days which is what is needed for roots to grow.
Jade-in-GR
Using lanolin sure makes a lot of sense. Also, it's nice on the hands.
daniel2
Hope I've answered some questions. good night to all. Hope any of you in storm tossed territory are getting along all right. You have my sympathy. Take some comfort in reading Moby-Dick and what the storm really means. Oh, by the way, no one asked what I taught at Mac American literature a joy and a challenge. G'night.
neil
daniel2 Hi-How much IBA would you recommend in how much lanolin?
Clare_in_Arcadia
Thanks Jim. And I've slept at Coffin's Inn in Moscow.
Fleur
Goodnight Jim and thank you for an interesting talk.
daniel2
I mix IBA with NAA and so the IBA is reduced. I'd have to look up the exact formula, but it would be something like 200 ppm
sparkysteve
Jim, thanks--you are great
Clare_in_Arcadia
I have a catt. that I believe has Odont. Ring Spot. I am looking for a lab to confirm. the AOS mag use to have lots of ads for labs, but no more. Anyone know where I can send a sample to confirm?
Jade-in-GR
This has been a really informative discussion. I can't wait to put in an order and give it a try. Glad to hear that you have a life besides orchids. It makes one a much more interesting person. Thank you so much for talking with us.
sparkysteve
I think I talked to you about 8 years ago Jim I had a question and you called me.
neil
Daniel2- Many Thanx from me here in Israel!
Goodnight everybody.
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