Pre-discussion material for this chat is the Marianne Matthews article, "The Name Game", begins ...

"It’s a truism that everyone wants his or her name spelled correctly. In the orchid world, however, correct names are not a mere matter of ego. They are a matter of pre-eminent importance in what is probably the most thoroughly and correctly documented area of horticulture."

Note: The complete article, "The Name Game", first appeared in the Awards Quarterly, Summer 1995, Vol. 26, No. 2, and is reproduced in the OrchidSafari Archives with the approval of the author and the American Orchid Society.

Name Game KAWACYM Question:

Marianne: Must clonal names be unique or can they be the same as the clonals of other crosses. Same clonal name but used on plants with different parentage. (Think I know the answer, but would like clarification). In the past, Andy Easton of Geyserland Orchids, N.Z. had given his tacit approval for anyone who buys his hybrids and grows it to first flowering to register it and to give it its grex name, etc. There have been several instances where the names given to them were, how should I put this, not exactly to his liking and even was offended by the names. Now, anyone wishing to name one of his hybrids are requested to submit the grex names to him prior to submission for registration. I believe the person(s) who did this probably just thought it was funny, admittedly the first few I saw did seem funny to me, but enough is enough I guess. I've got between 100 to 125 of his hybrids and have had a couple of dozen bloom for me but I have never thought of trying to name and register them, now I don't know if I would even if I wanted to. Actually I might as I've met and talked to Andy several times and he is really a nice guy...Jim

Reply:

The question about clonal names for seedlings has a multi-part answer.

...when you grow an un-clonal-named seedling to flowering maturity, it is your privilege to name it, and you should do so, especially if you are dividing it.. I sometimes repeat a clonal name I make up for a seedling from one grex, if the seedling from another grex is very similar in appearance. The difference in the grex name differentiates the seedlings. There are many people who have a standard clonal name, like the name of their greenhouse, which they apply to every plant. But here again, you have the problem of buying multiple seedlings of one particular cross. I have about eight different seedlings of Pot. Richard Young, because the Ehlert girls and I remade it. Each clone has a different name, so that when I divide it, it will be differentiated from every other clone. Doesn't that sound reasonable? MM

[By clonal name, we are referring to the "cultivar epithet" - that portion of the name which appears in single quotes. The grex name (collective epithet given to all cultivars resulting from two particular parents) is given by the hybridizer or by the grower with the hybridizer's permission. Clonal names can be repeated; grex names are monitored by RHS to be sure the same name does not appear in the same genus...mlg]

For an on-line recap, go to Craig Reavis', Orchid Growing for the Culturally Challenged:

Depending on whether or not "New User" was Karen signing in, we had 14 or 15 at our Wednesday night "Name Game"

Harold
John
Hallie
Ed
Barbara
Magda
Kathy
marylois
Sparky-Steve
gordon
Helen
Gail
Prankster (Susan)
New User/Karen

Hallie,_VA,_USA
Quasi-nomenclature question: If a plant (like Epi. atropurpureum/Enc. cordigera) is entered under its old name, will it be "fixed" and judged, or ignored?

Magda_in_Miami
I don't know what the exact rules are, but most of us are reasonable people and would judge it. I meant that about the plant with an older name.

marylois
Hallie, it's just a name change, not a class change (either would be considered by the same team at the same time [if entered in the proper CLASS...mlg]
Same with papilio...so far...talk about splitting that enormous group, but just getting equitants into a separate onc class should do the trick for a while. Tricky business. Just makes one look more uptodate to make the completed changes.
[In the Southwest, if we must move a plant from one class to another it is still judged IF that class has not yet been judged...if the class has already been judged, it is too late for consideration. Most of our show schedules instruct: when in doubt, place in the first possible class (that way it can be moved forward). Sometimes this doesn't work because of the way the classes are distributed between teams and the later class may already have been judged anyway...but we try...mlg]

Hallie,_VA,_USA
What is the trend with the Equitant Oncs? Will they be Tolumnia, or something else?

marylois
Tolumnia is getting more and more accepted. Ed, what constitutes official acceptance of a name change for horticultural purposes and registration purposes?

Ed_in_SAT
My bet would be for equitants to be broken out more for convenience than for the sake of taxonomic accuracy.

Barbara
I'm back, had to go take care of my GH, ever since David Grove talked at our meeting, I've been misting my Vandas roots at night before dark, it worked very well.

marylois
You, too Barbara? Wendy Lehr in our area has fantastic vandas...all grown the Fuchs way

Ed_in_SAT
It's an international event. I'd have to go hunt the book, "The Handbook on Orchid Nomenclature and Registration". AOS bookstore has it, I'm sure. Anyhow, that's where you read the official word. Rules are set by the International Orchid Commission (I think). Sorry not to be precise, but I haven't looked at this area in a long time.

marylois
I have the book - just thought there was some "rule of thumb" like species names...but makes sense that one organization would rule.

Magda_in_Miami
What's the theory behind hanging vanda's upside down to make them sprout roots?

Barbara
Ed you got me there, I always have to study it for a while, see how it looks on the cork, like I study a tree before I bonsai it. That's why it always takes me so long on repotting.

Ed_in_SAT
I agree to a point. Hope you meant when you grow a seedling you can give your plant a clonal name.
Right to name a cross still rests with the hybridizer unless he assigns it or cannot be found. Andy had a good thing going in offering customers a chance to name crosses. At $12.50 or so each, it adds up. We certainly would let anyone name one of ours. Andy got up tight about appropriate names and that's too bad. If you assign the right to name, you have no more say in the matter.

KB_Barrett
It has something to do with 'apical dominance' Ed will explain. (Take that, Ed) Magda_in_Miami
You mean whatever is on top will grow faster?

Ed_in_SAT
Making sense has never been a requirement in taxonomy.

KB_Barrett
Or whatever's on top will grow at all.

marylois
Yes, Ed -good point to reiterate - actually think second part of Jim's question was referring to grex names, not clonal names. We are free to add clonal names at any time to any plant not already bearing a clonal name (and with Marianne's explanation it seems a very good thing to do - better than -1, -2 etc.!) The grex is named only with permission of the hybridizers.

Ed_in_SAT
You mean growing upside down and apical dominance are related? Maybe so, but I don't notice apicals hanging upside down all that much. Mostly, they just eat bananas and show a lot of teeth when they grin. Sort of a dental delight, as it were.

KB_Barrett
Like why the 'splitters' haven't ripped up the genus dendrobium yet. I'd think that would be ripe for splitting.

Ed_in_SAT
I agree with Andy: grex names should show decorum. Mine include Den. Mother, and Blc. Malissa Forethought.

Magda_in_Miami
They're welcome to it. I already passed my dendrobium test!

Ed_in_SAT
For Jim: clonal name can be used many times, but each must be for a different cross or species. A grex name would not be reused in the same genus or in a closely allied genus. This latter has not always been the case, as a look at older registrations will show.

John_in_Arcadia_CA
I have used the same clonal name more than once. I use 'Dearmach' when I show a plant. [Quite proper...mlg]

marylois
Right on, Ed. And I think RHS officially finally put an end to allowing the same name for a grex in the same family, did they not?

John_in_Arcadia_CA
I also registered a plant as Lc. Dearmach but would not use the same name as a clonal as that could only be confusing.
Ed_in_SAT
Been the rule for quite some time.

Magda_in_Miami
I'm dying to know (and too lazy to look it up :) What are some of the grex names given to Andy Easton's hybrids?

marylois
I agree John -- don't even like the same name in a different generic family.

KB_Barrett
I think it's really confusing. Like with all Zuma Canyon's various Zumas and Vasquezes it's hard to keep track.

Ed_in_SAT
It's free advertising. We all do it.

John_in_Arcadia_CA
It appears that George has stopped that somewhat - finally!!

KB_Barrett
John, maybe he ran out of grandchildren! G!

Ed_in_SAT
In today's market, I'd say most professional hybridizers would like for a customer to name a cross. If you find one you like, check with the seller. You may get to immortalize Aunt Cochlioda.

marylois
I can understand a grower using his name on everything...you would too! I do get kinda giggly over Brother Sandra though.

John_in_Arcadia_CA
Kathy - George is the son. Amado is the father that I know. But he still has run out of grandkids (for the time being!)

Ed_in_SAT
Brother is a very popular business name in much of the orient. It doesn't translate quite like our "brother". It sort of means we're all in this together and our humble business is on your side.

marylois
That's nice to know...sure do like their breeding line~

Barbara
Ed is correct about 'brother', I should know.

John_in_Arcadia_CA
Then Brother is more of a collective meaning than the exact meaning as we know it.

marylois
Gee - thought we'd get more chat out of Names! And everyone would run out and add the clonal names of choice to their collections.*smile* KB_Barrett Ed, how much cash value could be placed on a hybridizer's name? Could it be recognized, like a brand name?

Ed_in_SAT
Hey Barbara - my doing oriental translations with you on line is like the old guy who went to heaven and wanted to tell the heavenly host about his experience in the Johnstown flood. St. Peter said, sure, we'll set it up for you and Noah can be the moderator.

John_in_Arcadia_CA
On names - I wish that when a new grex is registered that the correct pronunciation would be given if it is outside mainstream English pronunciation.

KB_Barrett
I read in Bob Gordon's book where he named plants after the kids in the neighborhood, his kids boyfriends/girlfriends, just about anything. I always kinda liked that! 'Hey, kid, clean up my greenhouse and I'll name a plant for you'!

marylois
Oh, John - why bother when half the population still says cat-ah-lay-ah?! *LOL*

Ed_in_SAT
Do you ever buy hybrids from Stewart's, Zuma, r.f., Carter and Holmes? You're buying hybridizer reputation under a brand name. People in my line are faceless - you buy our stuff in the chains, but we have one outlet where our grow out material is sold and regular customers take everything offered there the minute it comes in.

John_in_Arcadia_CA
OOPS - you are right of course. It just wouldn't work.

Barbara
Lois, when I receive a piece bulb or a cutting from friend, I always put in their first name at the end of that plant name, so I can remember who that's from, this is for my own use of course.
[Excellent idea! Will start it immediately...mlg]

Ed_in_SAT
Follow the two rules of academic precedence: if you have the slightest clue, speak clearly in a loud, authoritarian voice; #2: when in doubt, mumble.

marylois
That's nice, Barbara...and lots of nice people give the name of the person who gave them the plant for the clonal name when awarded. Now, we're talking civilized. *grin*

Helen
I give all my plants clonal names...usually after my cats so every 15-20 years they change...now they are all 'Chappy', 'Chaplin' or 'Tomasso', to name a few...Chappy is short for Chaplin and Chaplin is short for Charlie Chaplin..our newest!

Barbara
Ed you are flattering me.

Ed_in_SAT
Ding how

KB_Barrett
So when business is to be sold there is a dollar amount to be paid for the name r.f. or whatever. Even though that hybridizer may be dead and unable to continue to produce.

Ed_in_SAT
I couldn't speak for any individual business, Kathy, but excellence seems to follow certain firms for a long time. My guess is good will is about a fourth of the value of an established firm.

Karen_(New_York)
Did anyone discuss patented plants?

marylois
No, patents didn't come up. We discussed before though and figured there would be no problem with divisions to a friend, but no selling, and no hybridizing.

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