Reference: PART 1: Downlist from CITES Appendices I and II of Many Orchid Species, 13 Aug 97,

A continuation of the discussion on proposed downlisting of species not affected by trade from Article II of the current CITES agreement. Chaired by Marilyn Light of Ottowa, Canada and participation by the TOCC and OrchidSafari members.

PRESENT WERE 27:

Susan (Oregon)
Brassocat (Fla.)
Ann (Dallas, Texas)
anavivian (Peru)
Steve (Fla.)
John (So. Calif.)
Marilyn (Canada)
Lois (Louisiana)
Kathy (No. Calif.)
Josh
Ellen (New York?) Barbara (No. Calif.)
DK Burch
Harold (Texas)
Gail (Fla.)
Ingrid (Canada)
Greg (Fla.)
Carol (Wash, DC)
Emily (Georgia)
Sharon (Texas)
Fleur (Tasmania)
Jim (No. Calif.)
Elmer (enspense)
Ruth Rudkin (Australia)
WGuill (LA)
Carol (Fla.)

marilyninOttawa
In order to further clarify the proposal and to better focus today's discussion on the benefits to orchid conservation which will be derived from it, Elmer Spence of the Orchid Conservation Committee Inc. (TOCC) has prepared a problem statement and proposed solution for us to consider. Lois has made this available for any late comers.

TOCC believes that, for orchids, CITES and the methods used by governments to enforce its provisions are not serving the conservation purposes originally intended. Instead, the process is killing or causing to be killed many more orchids than are being conserved by the convention. This opinion is based on personal experiences of members of TOCC and others who have informed TOCC of their direct experiences. The provisions of CITES also prevent or hinder scientific research in orchids and prevent nearly all efforts to rescue orchids in eminent danger of destruction. It is apparent that some changes in CITES' approach to orchids are needed.

PROPOSED SOLUTION - TOCC sees a solution to the problem. Since the process of trade, as defined by CITES, endangers rellatively few species and since these species can be grouped into even fewer taxonomic grroups,TOCC proposes an enforcement procedure which will be focused at taxonomic groups instead of species. All genera and taxonomic groups containing species which are determined appropriate for listing would be listed on CITES I, II, or III categories and all species in those listed genera and taxonomic groups would be subject to enforcement procedures deemed appropriate by the governments. This will allow printed material to be prepared for the use of enforcement personnel which can be learned with minimum to moderate training. Once trained, inspectors will be able to determine if a plant is contained within one of the listed taxonomic groups, whether in-bloom or not, based upon the line drawings and descriptive information.

TOCC will prepare that information, in draft form, if this proposal is accepted. We will provide that draft information to the United States agencies responsible for developing enforcement information and procedures, and we will provide consultation to them, if they wish, in order to develop the final information to be used by enforcement personnel. End of Statement.

My thoughts on CITES:
I've come up with an original CITES proposal which addresses the larger issue of disappearing orchid habitat in the tropics, caused by deforestation for wood products or pasturage. Most of the products resulting from these activities (fancy wood and cheap beef) are imported to prosperous temperate nations, especially the U.S. Members of the general populace in the third world don't, as a rule, sit on teak chairs and eat prime rib. Exported wood and beef have little to do with poor farmers in crowded country's clearing land to feed their families Among the greatest profiteers in tropical forest destruction are big business interests in prosperous nations like mine.

Here, then is my unusual proposal: Open up trade in all but the rarest orchids. BLOCK TRADE IN WOOD AND BEEF. Put all woody plant products and all bovine animal products on the CITES list. Forbidden trade items will be easy to I.D. We won't need border guards well versed in plant taxonomy. Smuggling will virtually disappear. Getting a side of beef or a load of two-by-fours past even the sleepiest guard will be difficult and not very financially rewarding. Well, what do you think?

Deforestation in Oregon:
Some orchidsafari members have noticed and mentioned the sad state of Oregon's once vast forests. Yes, it's awful! Most of it is happening on FEDERAL LAND! Thats YOUR land, whether you're from Dallas, San Francisco, or New Orleans, or Portland! Please, please, please, write your members of Congress and express your feelings! It's your land. It's your business! Here, in Oregon, our Congressional delegation is bought and paid for by the timber industry. Writing to one of these is merely an exercise. So, oddly, out-of-staters are in a better position to influence federal lands in Oregon than native sons!

Please E-mail me if you need more information about how to contact congress.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
I think there should be a separate committee just for orchid conservation.

Brassocat
Marilyn posted the problem statement and everyone seemed to go poof!

enspence
enspence of TOCC in Largo is signing in. Hello, everyone. I am alone for the time being. I expect John Beckner and others to join me soon.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Marilyn, that sounds sensible. What are the groups?

Brassocat
Marilyn. Something that is not in the solution statement is that thehandbook under prep would also be used to help enforcement people on the spot. Not just for training.

marilyninOttawa
Elmer, would you mind giving us one or two examples of the taxonomic goups?

marilyninOttawa
Prankster d. Lois posted the lists of groups to everyone last week. Did you get it? [See Taxa Proposed for Downlisting from CITES Appendices I & II]

enspence
Prankster d- the groups have not been formulated as yet. We will probably need them to present to the Plants committee with this proposal in November and should have a good understanding of them by then.

Brassocat
marilyn. some of the groups are Masdevallia, Cattleya, Paphiopedilum, Dracula, this is from memory so is not complete.

marylois
Anavivian from Peru is with us now -- and Dr Guillory...welcome.

enspence
marilyninOttawa- Certainly. The obvious ones contain the widely popular genera, such as the Laeliinae, Dendrobiinae and the like. All of the widely traded groups should remain under CITES protection.

dkburch
The groups as I recall them consist of the orchids most often seen in international trade, since this is what CITES is set up to deal with.

WGuill
Good evening, Lois. Does anyone out there think CITES is really doing anything to benefit the flora we all like so much.

sparky-steve
By the time the inspectors see them they are too late and the plants are already stolen.

prankster d
Sparky, I think the book is for the border personnel.

Brassocat
Sparky. It is very hard for a non-orchid person to tell one orchid from another. That was why the easy way out was chosen originally.

dkburch
WGuill--I don't see that CITES is protecting orchids...Sparky--what stolen???

enspence
Sparky, the book would be for the enforcement personnel to determine if the plants had in fact, been stolen. Maybe they won't be listed on CITES and are not stolen, therefore perfectly legal. The book would allow the enforcer to make this determination accurately.

marilyninOttawa
Let's try to focus on the potential benefits to orchid conservation which will be derived from downlisting. Comments anyone. We can then make a list.

Ruth Rudkin (Donna, in Australia we are still not happy with downlisting.)
Donna, what about genera which are not yet popular but later become desirable to species people?

Brassocat
The free flow of non-endangered species will provide some degree of conservation. The local countries are not interested in saving their orchids for the most part but in feeding their people. So if they are brought into cultivation some can be propagated and preserved.

dkburch
marilyn--If certain genera are not 'protected' by listing on CITES, they may be obtained for research and for seed production--both of which are hampered by current regulations.

enspence
As contained in the Problem Statement, TOCC believes, for orchids, CITES is doing more harm than good. It prevents rescues of plants in eminent danger from habitat destruction, limits research and kills almost every orchid confiscated by enforcement personnel.

Brassocat
If genera become endangered via trade then they can be added to CITES. This is only the right way to start, which was not done in the beginning.

Ruth Rudkin (Donna, in Australia we are still not happy with downlisting.)
Marilyn, in PNG there are a lot of undescribed species. To save these, CITES can be used to encourage the Govt. to watch out for smugglers.

dkburch
Ruth, yes, there are still questions about the usefulness of downlisting. Please state yours.

enspence
Ruth, it will be much easier to add a genus to the list than to remove one. However, it should be firmly established that there is endangerment of the genus and that trade is the culprit before listing on CITES.

marilyninOttawa
susanli@ucinet.com
ensures that all orchids are subject to inspection? What mechanisms are in place in Australia and/or PNG to rescue orchids endangered by development, mining and the like?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
It looks like a Catch 22: By T.O.C.C. recommendations, only the orchid species that few want will be downlisted . The effect will be small. The hassles for border staff will be large. The benefit seems smaller than the hassles.

marilyninOttawa
Thank you for your comment prankster d. Could you enlarge upon what you mean by 'hassles for border staff'?

enspence
prankster d, we agree it is a lot of trouble but the present situation is not acceptable to many.

dkburch
Ruth--few studies on the endangered nature of some species of orchids have been done in the past 20 years of CITES. Many such studies are hampered by virtue of those species being lumped together and all placed on CITES. If we downlist most orchids not traded in great numbers, we start all over. Then we can study the species to see what is truly endangered, and relist them on CITES. In addition, we will have to arrange to get CITES to do its job, and really protect those species which need it.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Yes, Marilyn, I mean the nuts and bolts of enforcing CITES . . It's going to be hard, handbook or no handbook, for border guards to tell one from another when they're out of bloom. (Not easy always for ME, and I'm a fan, AND a biologist!)

marilyninOttawa
Carol, Any comments on the benefits to orchid conservation which would be derived from downlisting?

Brassocat
What are we after? I think we want to save as many orchids as we can before they are all gone. The only way to do that is in our collections by pollinating species. Then growing up the seed.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Wouldn't downlisting allow plants that are 'doomed' anyway to be preserved with less trouble and paperwork?

dkburch
prankster--I think that a handbook with 35-50 sketches will be easier to follow than the lack of info now used. If there is a problem, we will have to solve it.

Carol Holdren (Boca Raton, Fl.)
Marilyn, it is really a complicated issue. I hear about orchids being destroyed because they are not allowed to be collected before land is cleared, but we know what would happen if those plants were allowed to be collected. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the issue.

Fleur (Tasmania)
I like the idea of a handbook with drawings.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Selfing species is fine but the problem is raising the seed to flowering. Not everyone can sow seed and adequately care for the resulting seedlings. Some commercial people have to enter here and I think that they would eventually find it profitable so would continue to sow and raise species.

dkburch
JCY--Downlisting would save the plants confiscated now, and allowed to die...also would help with rescue efforts, I hope.

marilyninOttawa
Any species that will be 'rescued' and removed to another country will be traded in the CITES sense of the word. But if the plants threatened because of development, forestry, etc, are not 'rescued', they die. Is downlisting or removal of taxonomic groups not presently popular in commercial trade going to result in their preservation?

enspence
Fleur, which genera would you suggest be included in the book of drawings to help the border guards do their job?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
dkburch - I agree.

Brassocat
To continue my thought, the botanical gardens are not producing seedlings they just grow a few for display. The true conservationists are us, the orchid growers. This year alone I have made seven pods of species for planting. Some of those from last year are in flasks and com pots now. These will be distributed to interested people to grow and save. Some of the flasks were given to large commercial operations for free so they could also spread them around by selling them.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Wouldn't drawings have to be country specific? That way each country would have drawings of their own and possibly neighboring countries plants.

Fleur (Tasmania)
Maybe there should be a change in the rules to allow for the collection of plants that are threatened by logging, etc.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Brassocat - couldn't botanical gardens be convinced to do what you are doing - even to sell some? They are always in need of money and this could be a way of getting a little more.

Fleur (Tasmania)
John, my feeling exactly, the books would need to represent plants grown in the area and not just orchids either.

marilyninOttawa
John, Good point! CITES downlisting will affect all trade worldwide.

dkburch
Marilyn--downlisting of taxa not presently traded will allow them to be studied, and if found to be endangered to take appropriate steps to propagate them, and to save their habitat.

Carol Holdren (Boca Raton, Fl.)
I like the idea of botanical gardens selling plants. Selby Gardens does sell flasks and seedlings. They also sell divisions of their plants.

Fleur (Tasmania)
I also remember Ed telling me of a scheme he set up with his botanical garden, that they receive plants normally confiscated.

Brassocat
JCY8S. Well I have not been very successful at doing that. Selby closed their lab that was operated by volunteers that were producing great stuff. But no more.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Carol - that is what I meant. More should be encourage to do so as they have the parent plants that many people do not have.

121133ellen
What happens with plants that are now confiscated and survive customs?

Fleur (Tasmania)
Do any survive customs?

NativeOrchid
(Carol, Wash, D.C.) I can comment on two items. As a commercial grower, we are growing some species, but I must confess, they are the more popular ones. We need to pay our rent too! My experience with two institutional conservatories in my area has been a loosening of 'rules' concerning trading...even with the commercial world! One of these is a CITES repository.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Brassocat - that is the problem. Our arboretum here has to have volunteers as they employ only one trained orchidist to handle 4 or 5 huge greenhouses and it simply can't be done by one person.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
A rescued plant looks no different from a plant collected otherwise. Though its virtuous to rescue, I think there would be abuses. People trying to foist off everything as rescued. A special permit to rescue could become carte blanche to collect anything. Who'd be the wiser.!

Brassocat
Carol what Selby is selling is not theirs. It is brought in to sell from local commercial growers.

dkburch
Marilyn--downlisting of taxa not presently traded will allow them to be studied, and if found to be endangered to take appropriate steps to propagate them, and to save their habitat.

EmFelts
Are the commercial growers too interested in 'prettier plants' and those that are easier to cultivate? Many species plants are area specific and don't prosper out of that microclimate.

marilyninOttawa
As I understand it, at least here in Canada, plants are only confiscated if the importer lacks the appropriate documentation. You must have an export permit from the country where the plants were purchased/collected. Likewise, you must have a phytosanitary certificate. Do I understand that plants are routinely confiscated in the US even when the documentation is complete?

Brassocat
emfelts. The commercial people are interested, but as one just said they must eat so they have to look to the commercial side.

Fleur (Tasmania)
We can't leave it to the large commercial growers, after all they are a business and have to make a profit - we have a responsibility too.

NativeOrchid
(Carol - Wash. D.C.) The CITES repository that I am most familiar with does the best they can with confiscated plants. Some live and some die. Jungle collected plants are in very stressed conditions at best. They come in dehydrated and with no roots!

enspence
EmFelts, I believe you make a good point which helps explain why trade is not the problem in most cases for orchids. Only a few genera are popular enough to bring profits to the dealers.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
I thought that confiscated plants were sent to botanical centers and arboreta.

enspence
EmFelts, I believe you make a good point which helps explain why trade is not the problem in most cases for orchids. Only a few genera are popular enough to bring profits to the dealers.

Brassocat
Marilyn. You are correct. The inspector if he questions the paperwork, they just confiscate the plants. By the time you go to court and maybe win your case the plants are dead.

marylois
Amazing what a little soak in sugar solution can do for some of those dessicated, rootless jungle plants...

Fleur (Tasmania)
I have never heard of a CITES repository in Australia, maybe Ruth can tell me if there is one.

dkburch
Ellen--plants which are confiscated go to certified recipients, who have to hold them for 30 days to see if the country of origin claims them, then may keep but not sell them.

Brassocat
JCY8S. They just do not have enough people to take care of the plants. Additionally, the plants have been uncared for a long time by the time the plants arrive at the Botanical Garden.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
I think the only way to determine an orchids rarity is to look at wild populations. This wouldn't be affected by CITES at all. I don't see how CITES would interfere with studying a plant in this way.

marilyninOttawa
If plants with documentation are questioned regarding the paperwork, how will downlisting help? Plants will still have the phytosanitary hurdle and the "whether it fits the description" hurdle as well!

NativeOrchid
(Carol - Wash. D.C.) Confiscated plants end up in a CITES repository. Usually a botanical garden. Understand that most botanical gardens are understaffed and overworked. They have little time to molly-coddle very stressed plants. I remember very clearly looking at a large bench of Paph. primulinum types. Some very prettily in bloom, and all badly in need of repotting. Over one third the pots on that bench had already rotted.

Brassocat
Marilyn. Downlisting removes the authority the inspectors are working under when they do this.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Marilyn - that is the big question that must be answered before the hurdle can be cleared. What the answer is I haven't any idea.

EmFelts
Good old Customs. They need to streamline their conservation efforts (yeah, right, I used to work for the government). Having lived in Miami for a time, I am very familiar with their parrot confiscations. It's pathetic...

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Documented plants, wrongfully impounded, is an example of how unwieldy CITES is to enforce. I think the partial downlisting will add to an already confusing enforcement problem.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Unfortunately, te monetary value of the confiscated plants usually isn't too great I think so Customs doesn't care really. After all they are human (I think).

dkburch
Prankster--we have been told by noted botanists that their counterparts in other countries will not collect and study orchids, too much hassle with CITES regulations.

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
even with proper documentation I have found that a great deal depends on who happens to be on duty at the customs. We routinely bring plants across from Canada to the Michigan show on Palm Sunday. Sometimes they wave us through quickly....other times we get inspected and interviewed to pieces.....there should be more standardized protocol so we know what to expect.

NativeOrchid
(Carol - Wash. D.C.) dkburch, correct me if I am wrong, but can't CITES plants be traded after 7 years?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Sounds like botanical gardens need more volunteers with horticultural talents!

Brassocat
prankster d. I believe it will remove the authority of the plant inspectors to do this sort of thing and thereby allow them to concentrate their efforts on the real endangered species.

marilyninOttawa
Yes, Brassocat, but only if the inspectors believe that what they are examining is bonafide material not covered under CITES. They have a problem now. Please explain further how the problem will be finally resolved using the drawings.

enspence
Prankster, our goal is to simplify and de-mystify the present confusing situation.

dkburch
Carol--don't know... is that the rule?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Susan - botanical gardens definitely need volunteers with some knowledge. Where are they to come from except from the local orchid societies. How many get their members to volunteer for something like this? Not many I am sure.

Brassocat
Marilyn. With the drawings at hand the inspector can identify that an orchid plant is on CITES I or II and act accordingly. If the plants do not match his or her handbook then they are passed through.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Donna, I understood that CITES is a trade restriction. Shouldn't affect any aspect of a wild plant except availability for trade.

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
Even sadder....we could just tell them we have house plants and they let us pass through the border without raising an eyebrow...how simple it would be for unscrupulous dealers to unlawfully bring in hoards of rare and endangered plants.

marilyninOttawa
As I understand it, under the CITES convention, signatory countries are only obliged to return or take care of Appendix I specimens. Local interpretations may come into force regarding Appendix II material.

Brassocat
ingrid eb. What do you think is going on right now. There are many plants entering the US with the wrong name on them so they will be passed through.

NativeOrchid
(Carol - Wash. D. C.) The Smithsonian Institution has a wonderful volunteer program. Several NCOS members I know work there. I would if I had the time! The U.S. Botanical Gardens does too, I believe. Volunteerism works!!

marilyninOttawa
As I understand it, under CITES, trade is defined as movement between countries. It is the movement that is monitored not purchase or sale.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
If there was a botanical garden within 300 miles of me, I'd be there every weekend! One could learn SO much!

Brassocat
NativeOrchid. Great how many plants can the Smithsonian take this week and the next? 1500 per week?

EmFelts
This whole issue of conservation is so complex. Until people respect the Nature for what it does, we will never see an end to extinction. Unfortunately, we continue to overpopulate, further squeezing people into the wild places where the orchids lie in wait.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Marilyn - that sounds like typical governmental processes.

sparky-steve
Plants will die and that's the end!

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
with regard to getting volunteers from local Orchid Societies to help at nurseries..we can't even get volunteers to help at our own club meetings...less than 10% take an active part in our club...unfortunately, I think this is the rule nationwide rather than the exception.

dkburch
Prankster--agree. However, we were told at our conservation conference by the noted taxonomist Robert Dressler that he has even had herbarium specimens confiscated--dead, pressed plants!

NativeOrchid (Carol, Wash. D. C.)
Brassocat, they are truly over worked, understaffed, and GREAT people to associate with! Plants? They are fairly well stuffed!

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
No doubt each country has its own ways of dealing with rare species on its own soil (or not,) but this is separate from CITES.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Ingrid - I think that that is WORLDWIDE!!!!

EmFelts
Oh, Ingrid, I hear you. We haven't had a newsletter editor in months. Folks, I gotta go. It was nice chattin'. I have a hot head about conservation and could go on forever about it, but my baby calls. See y'all!

Brassocat
NativeOrchid. So you mean that is not a viable solution.

marylois
Perhaps the Dressler incident is the type of thing that should be documented - a central collection of infractions/acts of stupidity.

dkburch
Ingrid--lack of awareness, lack of caring, and general inertia seem to be the rule. Very few people do most of what is to be done, on anything. If we want something done, we must do it.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Yes Lois, but what good would it do as it would be buried under all the other tons of paper!

dkburch
Ingrid--lack of awareness, lack of caring, and general inertia seem to be the rule. Very few people do most of what is to be done, on anything. If we want something done, we must do it.

marilyninOttawa
Part of today's discussion is to assist in the clarification of the downlisting proposal. Are we agreed that downlisting is beneficial to orchid conservation? And if not, why not?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Donna, YIKES! They should make exceptions for bona fide, research collections on a study by study basis. It's done this way for animals. Usually you don't get a permit without a well written study proposal and university affiliation.

Brassocat
marylois, I suspect the USDA has a huge file cabinet full of these documentations.

dkburch
Lois--a list of documented incidents of a problem with current regulations is probably a very good idea. We can look for a pattern, then for solutions.

Brassocat
Marilyn, I guess it is quite obvious where I stand.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Marilyn - yes I agree that downlisting probably would be beneficial. To what degree I am not sure but it can't hurt at least to try it.

21133ellen
Maybe downlisting is a partial solution on the way to finding a permanent solution. Kind of like crawling before you walk.

enspence
Marilyn, I obviously support the downlisting proposal.

Fleur (Tasmania)
I think it may be worth a try.

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
Brassocat...I know this is happening and I can't think of a way to prevent it. Regarding conservation... ideally the plants should remain in their habitat..and these areas should be protected from the encroachment of civilization...one can't replace a clear cut virgin forest by planting more trees...the essence of that ancient forest is lost forever...by the same token, simply rescuing orchids and other endangered plants to a sterile green house environment is a poor substitute for more stringent conservation efforts in their native habitat. Unfortunately no one has found a viable solution that can satisfy both the poor farmer and the die hard conservationists.

dkburch
Marilyn, I think we need to try downlisting, but then not rest on whatever laurels that will bring. Promote studies, since we know so little; cooperate internationally--with botanical gardens, orchid societies, etc., planning and implementing projects. If high school students can do it, so can we.

Brassocat
ingrid eb. I agree, but I think it is the only option that will preserve some of the orchids. Small patches of jungle is nice, but will not really do the job. That is not to say we should not preserve as much jungle as we can, but when people are hungry you can't expect a country to not try to feed the poeple for the sake of saving some plants.

marilyninOttawa
Useful comments, Donna and Ingrid. Surely there is lots of opportunity for collaborative ventures in this global village of ours.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Marilyn, I believe that a partial downlist would add confusion and enforcement difficulties. To make CITES workable at the borders, the choice seems to be an entire downlist of all orchids or keep em all on the list. An entire downlisting scares me. Some collecting abuses of the past had devastating effects on wild populations. History can too easily repeat itself. When commercial profit can be made, exploitation will happen. CITES is imperfect, but alternative would be devastating.

dkburch
Ingrid, Brasso--I think the consumers of hamburgers and woodproducts are more to blame for habitat destruction than are the poor farmers. How do we change that type of lifestyle?

Ruckster1
What is downlisting?

marilyninOttawa
Ruckster1. Downlisting is the removal of certain orchid species from CITES Appendix II.

sparky-steve
The native land in Palm Beach County is going faster than the Brazilian rain forest (percentage).

NativeOrchid (Carol in Wash DC)
ingrid eb, The Board of Directors at NCOS worked very hard for several years to improve volunteerism. We can talk later. E-mail me and I will share strategies. Marilyn, I am in favor of downlisting. After all the discussion, I don't see where it can make things much worse and it may very well make some things better.

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
Brassocat...I attended a dinner with David Suzuki a few years ago and he gave a powerful speech about how we in North America and Europe destroyed most of our native habitats with the industrial revolution and yet now have the audacity to sit in judgement of the Third World countries, who are following in our footsteps..only 150 years later.

Brassocat
Donna, I don't think there is any change you could make in the life style now that would save anything. It is just to late. We must take positive action now.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Donna, its not just the wood and beef PRODUCERS, its the consumers of tropical wood and beef. THAT'S US!

marilyninOttawa
Perhaps those of TOCC could outline the steps necessary to go forward with a downlisting proposal. What is the time frame?

Brassocat
ingrid eb. I think it is even worse than that. On the one hand, we do as you say, but on the other we encourage them to export so they can buy from us.

dkburch
Right, Susan. That is why I say, how do we change that?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
If we (U.S.A) can levee import bans because of idealistic differences. Can't we ban imports based on environmental ethics? Always write your congressionals! Over and over!

Brassocat
prankster d. I can see it now...congress cuts ties with Brazil over Orchids! Don't think it would play in Wash DC.

marylois
It's changing - we've been plasticized...those with enough money will buy up the last vestiges of hardwood and prime beef. Lament as you wish, but facts of life must be accepted...the point is, how do we save SOMETHING?!

NativeOrchid (Carol in Wash DC)
Become vegetarian, for one thing. It is a much more gentle life style where naturlal resources are concerned. Purchase only farmed tropical wood products? But the farms exist on what used to be jungle. Support Eco-tourism.

dkburch
Marilyn, to have a downlist proposal ready for the next meeting of the COPS, we will need to prepare at least a sample of the handbook now, and get backing from at least two countries who are members of CITES. This info must be taken to the Plants Committee in November.

enspence
the proposal must be presented at the meeting of the Plants Group of CITES in November, 1997. If they agree, it will be presented at the next full meeting of the Parties to the Convention in 1999.

marilyninOttawa
We all agree that our goal is to conserve or make wise use of the world's orchid resources. Will partial downlisting achieve that?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Brasso, Is the well being of rainforests less in the hearts and minds of the American people than political differences with Cuba? (As for me I never lose sleep worrying about Castro.) Yet we've got a 100% boycott four decades running!

graphicgreg (hot in Florida)
That sounds good Carol, but those beans and rice get boring eventually.

dkburch
Carol--I agree with the farmed wood products. We should begin to produce what we may then consume, instead of consuming all the natural resources which support the health of the ecosystem.

Brassocat
Marilyn. I believe downlisting will help this. No one thing is THE solution. Small steps eventually add up.

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
Greg, grow your own doesn't mean what it used to, beef and chicken production at HOME is a great thing. Orchids, I'm too new to know much about CITES and such...

marilyninOttawa
Thank you Donna and Elmer, for the timeframe info and details.

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
dkburch....we could all become vegetarians, wear only polyester fabrics and build homes and furniture from recycled plastics...*grin*

Fleur (Tasmania)
Becoming a vegetarian is no answer as more forest would be cleared to provide the crops.

enspence
Marilyn, it will take much, much more than a partial down listing to accomplish that. However, it won't hurt.

marylois
Yes, if the partial downlisting is to allow for thoughtful decision making on what goes back on.

graphicgreg (hot in Florida)
Hey Prankster, the Pope will fix all that...I hear they're sending a cruise ship with 1000 cuban americans to greet him....maybe they'll take lots of Levis.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Marilyn , No. Not a bad idea in itself, but not workable. It would make difficult enforcement even more difficult.

Brassocat
prankster d. I just try to look at the reality of the situation not what I wish it would be. Not to say don't try what you are proposing, but I try to work on those things that will offer some measure of success.

dkburch
Carol--I agree with the farmed wood products. We should begin to produce what we may then consume, instead of consuming all the natural resources which support the health of the ecosystem.

marylois
Other forums will have to take on birth control and vegetarianism...in the meantime, we best practice rescue.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Wash. D. C.)
Fleur, it takes far, far less acreage to support one person who is a vegetarian, than it does to support a omnivore! Marilyn, thanks again for making this discussion possible....I'm to home, food (more than beans and rice!), and bed!

dkburch
Marilyn--I think that downlisting is only a start, not a cure for all that ails the system. Again, we must produce what we plan to consume.

enspence
Marilyn, what are the plans for our next chat?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
One fairly realistic way to provide some safety for orchid habitat is through purchase, ala Nature Conservancy.

marilyninOttawa
We could consider a proposal for complete downlisting, leaving control of export the concern of the range states. If we can then encourage/promote seed production, propagation, gene banking, etc, the orchids would be conserved. Comments anyone?

Brassocat
marylois. War and sickness used to reduce the populations of the world. Now that we are able to control most diseases and have not had a world war since '45 the population of the world is out of kilter. Would we bring back war and sickness I think not. There is a price we pay for everything we do. In other words we cannot have our cake and eat it to.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Marilyn, thanks again. You've provoked my thoughts once again!

marylois
The four horsemen will ride again...

Fleur (Tasmania)
We have gene banks now but how much support are they getting? and would they get more if we educated our growers better.

marilyninOttawa
Elmer. Our next chat is planned for the second Wednesday of September. Same tie, same place. The topic has to be decided but could be either of the two topics, namely, pollination of orchids in the wild, or, reintroduction of orchids into wild habitats. What do you suggest?

Brassocat
marilyn. I don't think (in fact I know) we would not get anyone to present complete downlisting. No country would take it up.

marylois
Pollination of orchids in the wild logically comes first.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Complete downlisting would be workable! But it scares me! Too many species brought low by overcollecting. What guarantee that it won't happen again. (I know it happens even now. But at least now its not legally sanctioned!)

dkburch
Marilyn, I doubt that a total downlisting would be acceptable to many, but a downlisting of those taxonomic groups not traded seems reasonable, since CITES proposes to regulate trade. Then all the rest can and should be done; that is where the work really starts!

marilyninOttawa
Fleur, I believe that we would get support and cooperation if a value added benefit was evident.

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
marylois..are the wild orchids suffering from lack of pollination?......less bees or moths willing to do the task?

marylois
No, Ingrid - but with fewer swarms of orchids in existence (and possibly pollinators as well)...hand pollinating will increase numbers.

enspence
Marilyn, I believe a discussion on the ethics of polination of wild orchid populations would be interesting and educational for the next chat. How about other opinions?

Fleur (Tasmania)
Marilyn, I was just thinking that an education campaign at the society level could have benefit. Might even stir a few up enough to get off their bottoms.

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
enspence...I think it would be an interesting topic as well...I already have a few opinions which I will save for that night...

KB Barrett
enspense, I agree on that as a topic, I believe it has had some discussion on the rec.gardens.orchids newsgroup and OLD.

dkburch
ingrid--we believe that infrequent pollination is a problem in some orchids, but we have too little info about pollinators. That is one of the areas in which studies are needed, and where lay people can be effective. Just go sit and watch orchids in the wild, and take a photo when it is visited by a potential pollinator.

marilyninOttawa
Fleur. Any conservation education programs underway in Tasmania?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
I'd enjoy a pollination discussion too. (Hmmm. Got wild orchids around here too. This might be something I'd like to do!)

graphicgreg (hot in Florida)
For what it's worth, I think the best species bank is us, ourselves: concerned growers who recognize the responsibility of maintaining rare cultivars, spreading divisions, pollen and seed. There are too many impoverished areas of the world that are rich in orchids...people have to eat and we can't rely on governments to feed them. I don't know if this was mentioned, but I have first hand information that commercial orchid nurseries in Brazil regularly collect wild plants, after three years they are considered 'nursery grown.

[I defy anyone to tell the difference between a jungle-collected plant and one purported to have been grown on a tree in a Brazilian back forty...mlg]

Fleur (Tasmania)
We have the native species group here, covering all native plants not just orchids.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
I've watched big giant bumble bees pollinate Cypripedium. Makes a good show!

marilyninOttawa
Elmer. Is it decided then? The ethics of pollinating wild orchid populations will be the subject of the September session. OK?

marylois
Coming back home where it belongs, huh? Get out there and pollinate, harvest and grow a pod, grow your orchids well...

enspence
Marilyn, sounds good to me. I look forward to it.

dkburch
enspence--hand pollination, ethics, management vs. allowing natural selection...all related topics; sounds good!

Fleur (Tasmania)
Yes Marilyn, I will go with that one.

KB Barrett
Maybe we can entice Jonathan Diller back, from OrchidNet. Or maybe Aaron Hicks can join us from the Orchid Seed Bank in lovely downtown Soccoro, NM!

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
Prankster......I just visited your webpage....very nice!..I added it to my list of favorites...

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Well, you've all got me thinking about pollinating the species in my sunroom as each makes flowers. I understand Orchidnet will take pods?
[Yes! Their homepage at OrchidNet makes good reading...mlg]

marilyninOttawa
If this downlisting proposal is adopted, and one of the goals is to 'rescue' orchids endangered through loss of habitat, then these plants will be in captivity somewhere. If conserving the species is a parallel goal, then does it matter where the plants are located? Are we not saying that it is the survival that matters? Comments anyone?

enspence
KB Barrett, good idea. Let's all talk it up for the chat. The wider we advertise, the more participants and variety of opinions we get. Thank you all for helping us with the downlisting discussion. I believe we have really wrung it out during these two chats. Thanks for your participation.

dkburch
Susan--Hoosier Orchids and a lot of other flaskers will take pods, also, and give you a flask--or whatever--in return.

[How about making a list of names and addresses of those ready to receive seed/pods and making that information widely available?...mlg]

marylois
I say it's the survival that matters...and we can do so much more ex situ (while working to keep native habitat).

KB Barrett
What's the date of the next conservation Chat? Sept????

kawacym
Hi gang, got on just a while ago and been lurking. Marilyn, would it be possible to have the parties agree to require advance notification of any areas to be clear cut and have a 1 year moratorium to allow organizations to remove indigenous species?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
We should ultimately strive to maintain wild habitat. An orchid in captivity, though beautiful, is no longer fulfilling its part as a cog in its environment. Its a relic. A mere reminder of the glories of the rain forest.

marilyninOttawa
Wednesday, September 10, 8 pm, Central Daylight Time, is the date of the next conservation discussion TOPIC: The Ethics of Pollination of Wild Orchids.

KB Barrett
I agree, Lois, especially as the 'situ's are all going to 'ex' very soon!

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
Marilyn. yes...survival matters most...but what a sad commentary on our world when everything will have to be preserved in artificial environments.....we have to fight for conservation too...

dkburch
Marilyn--if we are still talking, I will continue...I think that both preservation in the natural habitat to allow for natural genetic changes, and conservation by propagation and growth in greenhouse conditions, are both of importance--both for nature, and for us who have health benefits from cultivating plants and enjoying them.

marilyninOttawa
Kawacym. Good thought. Comments anyone?

marylois
When the world wakes up to not having sufficient forests for the multitudes to breathe - we should have the species in captivity - then reintroduce. If we don't make zoos of our greenhouses NOW, there will be nothing to reintroduce.

dkburch
A one year moratorium would seem like a long time to the company planning to harvest those trees. But it would be good if we could command enough attention to get notified, and do some type of survey and rescue effort.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Once it's in captivity, its no longer evolving. But, it's worthy to produce orchid species plants in captivity for our education, aesthetics, pleasure, and to furnish plants so that jungle collection will become needless.

marylois
i.e., be practical while we dream.

enspence
kawacym, that might be a good idea, but how do we force a sovereign nation to do that? I doubt they would agree to such intrusion as a part of a treaty.

Fleur (Tasmania)
A moratorium of some kind should be workable, even as short as a couple of months.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Once all the species are in greenhouses, there will be no where to reintroduce em. (Not unlike the present California condor situation.)
[I am hoping we opt to breathe before all rainforest is depleted...mlg]

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
Prankster..I think even if in captivity, a species will still continue to evolve if kept for enough generations...it will be affected by different factors than its wild cousins and eventually would bear no resemblance to them...but evolution would not cease.

kawacym
Although a 1 year moratorium may seem to be a long time, the planning that goes into any clear cutting starts at least two years in advance in most cases I believe) in order for all of the materials and machinery to be ordered and staged prior to the actual work beginning.

KB Barrett
Jim, I'm not sure someone in an underdeveloped country has to tell the gov't if he wants to cut down his forest. I think he just does it. So a moratorium wouldn't work in all instances.

dkburch
International rescues--how do we make that happen?

marylois
Yes, much shorter would work - and countries could and should not be forced to notify - but taught the value of doing so....you can't win em all.

enspence
Marilyn, I am signing off. I will be here on September 10 for the next installment. Good night, all.

marilyninOttawa
Good night, Elmer. We will be editing the transcript and get it out shortly. Thank you for your excellent contribution this evening.

marylois
Identify those doing the cutting -- they should be a strong partner in getting approval to rescue - their gain? Good public relations!

kawacym
No, you cannot force any country to comply but you could put forth a request trough the meetings of the parties that they return to their respective nations and let it be known.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Ingrid, yes, but a captive evolving orchid would be evolving into a quite different creature than its wild siblings. Natural evolution would cease. Every force of nature that made that given plant uniquely what it is, would shape it no longer.

Fleur (Tasmania)
International rescuers would have to be people like you and I working together in our own corners of the world.

ingrid eb (Ingrid from Windsor ON)
dkburch...international rescues.....hmmmmmm..what if the AOS increased their membership dues by $5/per person and this money was put into a trust fund...then volunteers could be sent to the afflicted areas to harvest the doomed populations of plants...

KB Barrett
dkburch, when I was in college a grad student got a grant from the NSF to go to Costa rica and film the tropical fish before they all disappeared. It would seem there's no shortage of studentswho could rescue or pollinate for college credit. (Of course most college students pollinate anyway, just off campus!)

marylois
Donna - how about those two conservation funding possibilities?

[Added...mlg:

TWO SOURCES OF CONSERVATION PROJECT FUNDING -
Please bring to attention of your orchid affiliations:

The Barbara Everard Trust for Orchid Conservation seeks to improve and encourage the conservation of rare orchids, both species and hybrids, particularly those in collections. Project that can be shown to improve prospects of orchid conservation in this area will be considered for grants that will not exceed $1,500.

Proposals should not be more than two pages typed, double-spaced and should explain how the proposed work will benefit orchid conservation. The proposal should discuss the scope of the work, personnel involved, and include a timetable and a budget including other sources of income. Include names of two references.

Anyone may apply for these grants, which will be given for three years. Send applications and supporting materials to Mrs. J. Kelleher, Barbara Everard Trust, 120 Crofton Road, Orpington, Kent, United Kingdom BR6 8HZ. The deadline is September 31 [sic]. "

Phillip Cribb placed this info in the AOS Orchids, and is one of the trustees of the Everard Trust.

1. Protect orchids in the wild.
2. Establish and maintain organizations to protect orchids and orchid habitat.
3. Conduct studies relating to orchid conservation.
4. Establish and maintain programs encouraging orchid conservation.
5. Educate the public about conservation in general and orchid conservation in particular.

Please send us:

1. A description of the project to be funded. Cover the goals of the project, the methods to be used, the relevance of the project to our objectives, and how the money will fulfill your particular needs.

2. A detailed budget, specifying a definite amount of money and the use of the funds.

We expect to distribute up to US$5000 per year. To benefit as many programs as possible, we encourage requests for up to $2000. However, larger requests will be considered. There is no minimum request. Although we will consider applications related to multi-year projects, at this time we cannot make commitments for more than one year.

The deadline for submissions is November 1, 1997. Applicants will be notified by January 1, 1998. Applications should be sent to Peter S. Tobias, SDCOS Conservation Committee, 5040 Milton Street, San Diego CA 92110 USA. Inquiries can be sent to this address or by e-mail.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Lois, it may be mercenary, but it would be an easy thing to make it worth a company's effort, to allow rescue, if there's a way to pay 'em.

kawacym (Jim in San Jose, Ca.)
Kathy, I like that about students pollinating. LOL

marylois
Yes, it's time to say good night.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Good night all! See ya Saturday!

Fleur (Tasmania)
I would like to thank all for this very interesting chat.

marilyninOttawa
We really have make the decision, don't we? Either conserve a species ex situ and risk having it evolve under different selection pressures OR leave the species in situ and have it expire because the habitat it had adapted to is destroyed. Is there any choice?

marilyninOttawa
Good night everyone. Thank you for participating. It was a very worthwhile discussion.

marylois
None! Rescue what you can, pray for the rest.

KB Barrett
I'd say no choice, Marilyn. We have to bring the species into the greenhouse. But I'd agree with brassocat. We probably have most of them in our collections already. We just have to find them in our overstuffed greenhouses!

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Back again! Yes Marilyn...BOTH! Do EVERYTHING to conserve habitat. And propagate at home. The danger I see is that we mustnt get complacent and be satisfied with propagation alone. Propagation is great but not enough in itself. HABITAT !

kawacym (Jim in San Jose, Ca.)
I don't believe that ALL wild species have been found, every year you hear of new finds.

Fleur (Tasmania)
There have to be more out there as there are numerous areas not yet studied.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Yes, Jim. They're still discovering large mammal species in SE ASIA. Whole taxonomic families that have been unknown to science!

marilyninOttawa
Many species are actively evolving even today. Evolution does not stand still. Getting late everyone and it has been a long day. Good night.

Fleur (Tasmania)
Some species thought to be extinct are still being found on occasion, even here we still get the odd sighting of the Tasmanian tiger.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
If we've missed some great big horned mammal, surely we've missed countless plant species. Gaudy Phrag. besseae, just a few years ago, no? Paph. armeniacum in the 80s. P. sukakhuli in the 70's. Mexipedium a few years ago....Heck, I don't think we've hardly STARTED describing species. And those are relatively showy! How many drab little species have we not noticed yet?

kawacym (Jim in San Jose, Ca.)
Yes, and with orchids it is very difficult to notice them unless they are in bloom in the wild. Okay. Got that out of my system. Guess I can go to bed now!

Conservation chat ended, with a few staying on for a brief visit.

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