1. Pre-Discussion Mailout: Suggested Reading, from Marilyn Light

2. Transcript of Forum

3. (ADDED) Bee Pollinating Pictures, by Greg Allikas

[Edited by Marilyn Light]

marilyninOttawa
Hello everyone! We will begin the discussion topic in about one hour's time. The topic today will be 'The Ethics of Pollinating Wild Orchids'. Our goal is to identify ways and means of gathering information to develop this conservation ethic.

Discussion begins:
Hello everyone. Today we are going to discuss the development of an ethical code of conduct pertaining to the pollination of orchids in the wild. Before we can develop an ethic, we must have some basic information. First, what do we already know? Some investigators have shown that heavy fruit set can have a negative impact on plant health. Is this true for all orchids or just for a few? I thought we could start today's discussion, identifying just what we want to achieve when we pollinate wild orchids. Then we can go on to discuss the ways and means of gathering more information. Finally, we should have some idea as to what code of conduct should be adopted. Let the discussion begin.

Aaron, I was wondering if you could tell us if any of the seed you bank is from orchids pollinated in the wild?

AJHicks (butthead)
Some of the seed I get is wild material, certainly. It is difficult to get species into cultivation without, at some point, garnering seed or plants from the wild. The former is much more desirable, as displacing plants is disruptive. Unless collected under permit from 'slash and burn,' or otherwise salvaged, collecting plants is no longer a good idea, really.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
I read some of the articles in the 76 and '75 Bulletins and despite the technical stuff, I was unable to draw a conclusion other than the fact that the gene pools are a terribly complicated thing to maintain.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
I was wondering if pollination by humans in the wild would be good as a person might not pollinate as random but pollinate the better forms.

marilyninOttawa
What do we know? Some studies have shown that there is a detrimental effect of heavy fruit set on certain orchids. What more do we need to find out before devloping an ethical approach? Perhaps we can start by discussing what we wish to achieve when we pollinate orchids in the wild.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Gene pools are tough to maintain. Other than the usual jokes about 'Hey! You! Outta the gene pool!' the simple fact is that genes are in constant flux; the code is always changing. Genetics is like law: when do we stick a fork in it, and declare it's done? What is the perfect legal system? What is the perfect organism? (I vote for Kudzu, myself).

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Hmmm, a mission statement, an objective and a process?

marilyninOttawa
You have put that well Rick.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
JCY8S is quite right; in the way that we select what we find to be most appealing in an artificial collection, how do we know what is the 'best' wild plants?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
I think that those populations that do not reproduce well should be artifically pollinated as the wild pollinator might have been reduced to the point of ineffectiveness.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Ok, then I guess that we ought to work on the mission statement. Any proposals?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
This weekend , I was in a shady gorge and saw Platantheras (Habenarias) with ~ 100% ripe capsules. Pollination was going just fine without me, here!

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Well, the question remains: if a population is not thriving (i.e., reproducing well), why is it not reproducing well? If it is absence of a natural pollinator, perhaps intervention is required (due to pesticide spraying, etc.). Otherwise, if it's natural.. is it for the best of the species, or not..? Are we breeding bad blood?

121133ellen
When we intervene with nature are we not interested in what is appealing to us rather than maintaining the species in nature?

marilyninOttawa
From my studies with Cypripedium, I have discovered that some plants are much better seed parents than others, some are best partnered with particular pollen parents, and some are outright, consistent duds as far as seed production is concerned. While there are many individuals in a population and pollinators are present, things perk along. The dilemma arises when 1) there are only a few plants left, or when 2) pollinators no longer exist.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Mission statements tend to be a bit revealing and high level, like Our mission is to stem the further degradation of the natural orchids in the northern hemisphere! (Well, there have to be some boundaries).

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
If a population is declining maybe nature is trying to eliminate that which is not effective. The dying out of a species in natural.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Ellen: Depends upon how we select the plants for the next generation. Do we select the most robust specimens? The ones with the most attractive flower? Flowers that are true to form? Other criteria? Heck, this is all BEFORE we get out of what HUMANS can see: many plants fluoresce into the ultraviolet, too... ;-)

marilyninOttawa
I believe that our mission statement could be - To develop an ethical code of conduct pertaining to the pollination of orchids in the wild.

121133ellen
I agree with John, species dying or adapting is natural in nature. Isn't that how mutations appear?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Folks, I think that before we get into the process, we need to figure out what our mission is......anyone?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Aaron, not to mention pheremones and other olfactory attractants which we humans are 'blind' to.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
John: Quite true. Then it comes down to what should be conserved. Epidendrum ilense is known from three plants collected from a slash-and-burn operation, and has not been seen since in Ecuador. Still, we maintain it in cultivation. Accordingly, was the plant already on its way out (a refugium left in Ecuador?), or a new species, or simply suffering from poor reproductive health?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
I think that the statement that Marilyn has proposed is a good one.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS) Ok, Marilyn. That is reasonable. Then, all that we will be concerned with is the ethical issues of conduct as it relates to the pollination of orchids. Hmmm, that sounds more like an objective to me...What sayest thou?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
A simple statewment is the best as it can be adapted to the situation as needed.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
What Marilyn has is reasonable, but I would expand that to propagation of orchids in the wild - although this would primarily encompass pollination, it does not exclude other techniques (which admittedly deal more with epiphytes than the terrestrials).

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Lurk on Kathy, we are Missioning and Objectivizing.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
If a plant is pollinated in the wild, can the pod be collected for artificial germination? Ethically that is?

marilyninOttawa
We have recently discovered with several quite different orchids, all having more than one flower on an inflorescence, that flower position can have a significant effect upon the resulting progeny. Such effects are already known in other plant families.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Marilyn can you explain that a little more?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Ok, then, if our mission is to develop this ethical code, then what are we going to do for an objective? The objective could be to define a code that all people could live with? *grimace*

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexco)
John! Most species (provided local, state and federal laws all agree) can be propagated in the lab from wild-collected material. The question is... is this healthy for the species? Many reasons why it may or may not be.

marilyninOttawa
I was proposing that before we can develop an ethical approach, we have consider consequences to our actions. Why are we going to pollinate? Presumably, we pollinate to 'ensure' that seed is produced. Whether this seed is collected is another matter.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Yes AJ - I can see why, but if a population is very small would it not be best?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia CA)
Marilyn - if seed is produced then nature might germinate some of the seed to the benefit of the population.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Once again, we have to look at why the population is small. In many areas of Western PA, populations of Cypripedium acaule seem to form (to me, at least) in young growth forest about 30-40 years after timber harvesting. Will the canopy be too thick to support these colonies in 10-40 years from now? If so, as they go 'shallow,' attempts to repopulate, in the face of increasing canopy thickness, is futile.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
I could see that if there is an orchid that relies mostly on vegetative reproduction, that pollinating artificially would weaken it.

marilyninOttawa
John, If you are asking about the positional effect, we have identified different types of germination behaviour. The seeds which germinate the quickest are concentrated in the lower capsules. Of this seed class only, there are individual seedlings that grow very quickly, We have identified an effect with Epipactis, with Oncidium and with Disa, although in each species, the effect is somewhat different.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Ok, Aaron, you opt for understanding the problem of population loss. That is a different problem from developing an ethical code of coduct re artificial pollination of natural orchids, no?

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
The other thing we have to consider is whether 'more is better.' After all, if we create more capsules (to create more seed, of course), what does this do? In theory, each plant replaces ONE of itself over the lifetime of a colony - maybe 0 to 5 over its own lifetime. Divide this by hundreds of thousands of seeds over the lifetime of the plant. Does more capsules help, or is there another limiting factor?

dkburch
With regard to small populations of orchids, those orchids which mimic other plants must be few in number compared to the plant which gives a reward, otherwise the pollinator will go elsewhere.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
RR: I don't know as the two can be so easily separated. We have to decide if a colony is 'broken' before we try to fix it, yes...?

gaillevy (Boca Raton, FL.)
When I was in Costa Rica a couple of years ago, met an old couple that wanted to put the Cattleya skinneri back in the forest, evidentally it was a no, no. They were breeding Macaws and turning them loose. They were written up in the Tico Times and were involved in the yearly bird count which is where I met them!!! Interesting, but evidentally not considered appropriate there!

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Aaron, all that I'm trying to do is to help us stay on the same problem. Most people would agree that somewhere there is a problem what with all the clearcutting and deforestation however, what problem (and there are many) do we want to address?

marilyninOttawa
Rick, Some have suggested that it might be a good idea to 'help nature out' by pollinating orchids. 'After all, some orchid populations have very low fruit set.' The question is 'Should we intervene? I think that this concept is different from a horticultural objective which is to raise seedlings in cultivation. Certainly, part of the discussion must eventually consider whether the seed that has been artificially initiated should be wholly or partially collected. I suggest that the code should have the plants in mind.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
I think orchids have been trying for years to keep up with their environment and whatever conditions keeps them growing---one cross and the genes will get kicked in reverse!!!!!!!

marilyninOttawa
AJ, Good point! There are clearly at least two situations to consider. Populations which are naturally waxing and waning with the environment, and threatened poulations, where too few individuals or the absence of pollinators may lead to their demise.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
After all there is trianderous Encyclias here in Florida---what would have happened to them if Man stepped in???

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS
Certainly I agree with that stance Marilyn. You have mentioned at least three issues. The idea of 'Should we intervene?', alone, is a huge issue that needs considerable thought - especially where the ethics are concerned. And then, there is the history of effective interventions as well as consequences to consider and on and on.... this is a tar-baby

marilyninOttawa
Another good point, AJ. Again the question is, if we know how to, should we?

dkburch
An article I read by Ackerman on Bottlenecks states that supplemental pollination is better for the population, but detrimental to the plants which are pollinated.

gaillevy (Boca Raton, FL.)
We know how to clone sheep, should we?

121133ellen
We seem to be dealing with several problems. Starting with should we intervene followed by under what circumstances do we intervene?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Gail, I think that the issue of cloning of whatever is all wrapped up in the purpose.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
That's why there are sometimes problems growing 'awarded' mericlone species plants---they were crossed for what the grower wanted not what is best for the plant!

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Donna, what does that statement mean?

gaillevy (Boca Raton, FL.)
Ok, Rick how about some ground rules?

121133ellen
If we have created the environment that has affected the population rather than a natural occurance, maybe we should reset the balance and intervene.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Sounds good, Gail. Propose some.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
The plant has been in it's small ecosystem for thousands of years trying to survive and reproduce---survival of the fittest---then MAN pollinates and screws everything up!!!! gaillevy (Boca Raton, FL.)
I thought I passed the ball to you Rick, I don't profess to knowing much about the subject, just willing to listen.

121133ellen
I think we will not find an answer. Maybe we shouldn't mess with Mother Nature.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Yes, It may be a good idea to pollinate plants, but to put the seedlings back in the wild is a no no---put them in greenhouses!!!

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida):
Ellen---you said it!!!!! dont mess with Mother Nature!!!!

gaillevy (Boca Raton, FL.)
I think you may be right Ellen and Sparky. Let nature take it's course, if we messed around all those dinosaurs my grandsons love would still be walking around.

marylois
Donna - the Ackerman on Bottenecks article: does it state specifically as detrimental to the plants which are pollinated?

dkburch
Sparky, if man pollinates what is already growing in the wild, how much can that act change the genetics of what is there? Assuming that nature is allowed to select and the natural pollinator take over after one pollination attempt.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA.Diablo View OS, AOS)
Ok, Gail, and what would be wrong with that? Is it an issue of ethics to leave mother nature alone? Or is it just like another one of mans' toys in the end. Eventually, all of nature will be like a toy. It is up to man however, to be responsible and to maintain what is created and owned. (Touch it and you own it)

KB Barrett
Also, a lot of what's being said here I can appreciate from a scientfic stand point, but my concern is should I pollinate that Cyp. montanum I see next time I'm hiking in the hills? Its range has been diminished and they're hard to find now. Is this a sin? (BTW there is no Cyp. montanum in the hills around here, I was just using that as an example!)

marilyninOttawa
Steve, do you propose that humans do not intervene? In any situation?

marilyninOttawa
Sparky steve, The ethic of reintroduction will be the topic of discussion for next month.

gaillevy (Boca Raton, FL.)
Rick, that could mushroom into quite a large, non-ending responsibility. You really wouldn't have control over what might develop!

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Donna---I'll go back to my statement about triandrous Encyclias----they developed three anthers to survive----what if man helped pollinate??????

dkburch
Lois, the plants which carry a pod are weakened by that effort..is what Ackerman was saying. In our greenhouses we don't pollinate the same plant two years in a row for the same reason.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida
You never would have created triandra!

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Hi all! But sparky and ellen We've already messed up 'mother nature', now we might be trying to right a wrong. Actually, I suspect that what might be a good plan for one population may spell disaster for another. What we really lack is information. We don't even know what the pollinators are for the vast majority of orchid spcies.

KB Barrett
I have to confess that right off hand I'd be tempted to pollinate the Cyp. montanum.

marylois
Donna - I tend to agree with your last statement -- the act of pollinating in itself should pose no great problem...ony the fittest will survive with natural distribution of seed....the REAL dilemma comes in reintroduction.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Marilyn---there has to be a reason for what is going on-----using Gail's thoughts---If man was here at the time (of dinosaurs) would they have wanted to save dinosaurs?

KB Barrett
OK, Sparky, now I see your point!

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Then maybe Man would have never evolved.

dkburch
Another factor to consider in this issue is the idea that we shouldn't interfere because we will change mother nature. Isn't mother nature herself always adapting?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Steve, Gail, as many will say, man shouldn't touch natural things because history has shown that when we do, we tend to screw them up. This doesn't have to be the result. What is needed is a little more forethought and planning - honesty about purpose and no deception. Man is capable but, we often have other agendas.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
runnerRick---sorta like 'close the door after the horse escapes?????

KB Barrett
But in the back of my mind I would remember the time I was collecting plants for a botany field trip and collected one without roots, which made it useless for my project, the whole specimen had to be collectd. So I'd wrecked a plant for nothing. I'd hate to be in the same position willy nilly pollinating orchids with the best of intentions while in reality wreaking botanical murder.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Yes Marilyn! We need more facts. Much more basic ecological research needs to be done. Of course that takes time and money - and some species may not have the time!

marilyninOttawa
Sparky steve: Did the Encyclia develop a triandrous nature to survive?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Steve, you could say that. I think though that its the 'other' agenda that usually gets in the way with man and nature - you know, the ulterior motive. Most people aren't very honest with themselves from my experience.

PaphioDePaphio
Well... all I can say is a quote from a speaker at the MOS meeting... when there is cultivation...there will be no extinction.

dkburch
KB, that is a good argument for why we should learn more about the species which we would plan to 'assist'...at least enough to know if we would actually be helping or hurting the situation. Marilyn, I agree that we need to know more...as you have been suggesting.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Depends, Paphio, several species have been wiped out of existence in the wild thanks to overzealous collectors who will happily pay out the nose for mature plants. *shrugs* Phal. gigantea is the classic one, but virtually all paphs and phrags suffer the same problem.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Yes Marilyn---that's what I understand---the insect or whatver is not here or very minimal----do you know anything about the Vanilla orchids?????? That's why they have to be self pollinated!!!!!

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Hi, Chuck... and to reply to your statement of lack of time. What would happen if no one ever discovered that there wasn't time? Like I keep telling my boss, 'Always time to do it over, never time to do it right the first time.'

marilyninOttawa
Chuck, Yes, more information could be gathered.

dkburch
I'm not absolutely sure, but I think I have read that the triandrous condition evolved first, and monandrous developed later...

JCY8S
Marilyn - could the third anther be an experiment by nature that was found to be not necessary?

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Hi AJ, lets not forget that once in captivity our captives may become entirely dependent on us for survival because they may lose the ability to survive in the wild.

dkburch
How many species do you know which have been over-pollinated to death?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Right, Chuck, hence our responsibility for meddling. This has been true before, ala Patty Hearst.

marilyninOttawa
Cultivated Vanilla is a separate issue. Miguel Angel Soto Arenas of Mexico is now doing work with the many Vanillas, some of which he says rarely flower. But then again they are long-lived perennials. They may only need to reproduce once in their lifetime.

[I recently read never stake your vanilla vines - they only bloom on those portions of vine bending down...stake them, and never get flowers...mlg]

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
*grins* Well, by that standard, the spiranthes are safe. I'll give anyone who can successfully hang pods on spiranthes with the use of manual implements a brand-new, shiny nickel. ;-)

JCY8S
dkburch - good question. Maybe it really doesn't matter.

dkburch
Chuck, that's why I suggested tht mother nature be allowed to select...which she will...unless we are willing to begin continuous management of an entire ecosystem.

JCY8S
Marilyn - I have a feeling that human pollination of wild orchids really doesn't matter as so few would really be human pollinated that it wouldn't matter.

marilyninOttawa
As I understand it, if situations occur during the evolution of a species, which have a negative impact, these traits are unlikely to be passed. On the other hand, traits which have a neutral impact could get passed on. The trait does not have to have a positive impact to continue.

KB Barrett
John, unless I get out there with my trusty toothpick!!! (That's a joke, no really, it is, I swear!)

marilyninOttawa
By which standard, AJ? I don't follow you.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Traits can also be hidden, such as immunity or susceptibility to pathogens; although rarely, if ever, made apparent, they are crucial to the survival of a species.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Marilyn, if human pollination became a paying (or paid) issue, then there would be some kind of money spent to research the facts and determine what would work, just like silicon chip yields,...no?

marilyninOttawa
Agreed, Aaron.

JCY8S
AJ - has any species ever been pollinated out of existence that you can prove?

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Aaron---you are right about terrestrials---there are some that thrived on the ditches that man created after slash and burn of the forests!

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
No, John. Can't say as I have.

marilyninOttawa
I am not sure if I follow you runner rick. Right now there are limited funds to support formal research but I know from experience that much of this work can be done with minimal outlay.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Actually, a lot of critical biology is being done with out-of-pocket expenses by 'non-professional' sorts. There's no funding, because there's no profit to be made.

marylois
I trust you and your toothpick would make a more thoughtful selection than the natural pollinator! Come on, folks, this is a chance situation - not a divine plan.

dkburch
Chuck, that's why I suggested that mother nature be allowed to select...which she will...unless we are willing to begin continuous management of an entire ecosystem.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Marilyn, what I meant is that if there is money somewhere there, then the research will get done. Research of how to pollinate will be done. If the flower can be pollinated successfully, we can find out how - and we will. We just have to make it rewarding.

marilyninOttawa
Let's now consider the various scenarios when pollination might be considered.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
How about pollination when the species is low in known population (numbers)?

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
marilyn] Sometimes I think an *excellent* option is when a population is about to be wiped out, and transplanting the entire bunch is not possible. As populations of many terrestrial species in North America tend to be isolated (genetically and geographically), this represents one of the best ways to allow an entire population to be 'lifted,' almost like a fingerprint.

JCY8S

I think that human pollination can be accomplished at all times as the amount would not be significant to nature.

marilyninOttawa
First, we have someone walking through an area where many Cypripedium acaule grow. We know that the capsule set in that population is sometimes as low as 2%. Should this individual do hand pollinations? If pollinations are done, what information should be collected if any? Should individuals doing such pollinations be cautioned to use only new toothpicks? Should they be encouraged to followup their work?

KB Barrett
How about you're walking along a path in Costa Rica and you come into a clearing where a pretty oncidium of some sort is flowering, pollinate or no?

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
How about this for an idea, Marilyn? Let's start human pollination of common/wide spread populations. Then we could study the effects without endangering a truely rare species. Then the information gained could perhaps be applied to endangered populations in a more informed way.

JCY8S
I understand, Lois

PaphioDePaphio
dk: but at this time... mother nature has already been disturbed by men, directly or indirectly, so there is no way she can do her job like she is suppose to...

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Donna, the whole problem is that when man intervenes by deforestation, whatever, nature doesn't make the choice. Man should be responsible enough to survey the area and determine what must be managed ... then manage it

JCY8S
Paph - that is an interesting opinion!

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Unfortunately, populations are so dynamic that it is sometimes arguable that results could be determined to be different from background, or natural population flux. More than one experiment with great reported success or failure (esp. in biology) has been due, in all likelihood, to natural swings. Experiments would have to be conducted with great care and emphasis on detail.

marilyninOttawa
Fine AJ, then the second scenario is one where a population is known to be at risk. What should be done before pollination is considered? If the plants have only one last season before their home becomes a parking lot, does capsule loading matter? Should some of the seed be collected and scattered in nearby suitable habitat?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Paph, Donna, Mother nature has already been disturbed. (Man is part of nature, not aside from it.)

marylois
If alone, pollinate at will (as John said, it is but a grain of sand on a very large beach), in a group situation and/or private/government lands, see if tour guide approves...I think one shoud carry a notebook, record any pollination, and have enough interest to followup on maturation of pods. Germination of seed, in my opinion, could not be observed.

JCY8S
Yes Marilyn. And some of the plants themselves if done by professionals.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
As for walking through the woods anywhere, I think the last thing that should be done is to self a plant.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
marilyn] I have no clue. I'm beyond ignorance here. I would suppose it might be kind of interesting for people to have 'libraries' of certain species-one or two fellows who have collections of a given species-from ALL over the natural range. Killer.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
The only way to save orchids is to stop the slash and burn--save the small amount of virgin land we have left.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Marilyn, we should even move some of those parking lot plants to the greenhouse and learn how to raise them, unless there are suitable alternative areas to grow the plants.

PaphioDePaphio
runner: I agree that man is part of nature, but what man does to disrupt nature is not natural...

JCY8S
Yes Steve, but how is that going to be done - practically?

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Marilyn, it does seem a little ironic we are discussing ethical issues of pollination wild orchids when it is OK to build roads, golf courses. etc., on top of them ;-)

dkburch
To pollinate or not is a miniscule consideration compared with habitat destruction. I think we should concentrate on preserving the entire ecosystem and not worry about each small part. Nature will take care of that.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Righto Chuck. We are only discussing the ethical issues, not the practical and real issues.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Easy enough to say, Steve, but imagine the indignance if our forefathers had been told by, say, Great Britain, 'Stop cutting down your forests, dammit!' (Which is what they did, at one point - you know what happened after that!)

graphicgreg (crazy photog in Florida)
here here Chuck, the discussion seems moot.

KB Barrett
Aaron, sounds like we need a return to the 'gentleman scholar' of the 1860's. Someone to study the range near his home and collect and preserve it. With no thought of remuneration. Pure science.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Aaron--I have collected 'illegally' some Enc. tampensis from an area where they made a new road. Here I could have been arrested for taking them--called endangered, even though the next day they were going to be burned. Well, less then 40% of those plants survived and they were only moved less then a mile from where they were grown.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Donna, saving the entire environment ain't likely now, is it?

marylois
Not moot...accepting what we cannot change and changing what we can.

PaphioDePaphio
Sparky: saving a piece of virgin for the orchids wouldn't have worked...because...

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
dk, I agree 100% that the very best way to preserve any species is to protect sufficient habitat. If the habitat can't be protected there is little point to human pollination unless the point is to bring them into captivity. AND if that is the case why not just dig them up??

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
JCY8S ---it's hard to say John---it looks like man was created to destroy the earth!!!!

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
KB: There is some of that, like Carson Whitlow and Spangle Creek and so forth; they all have nominal profit motive, same as me. But I suspect there are far more 'casual' conservationists- they're just not networked. JCY8S
Yes, AJ, I forgot!!!

PaphioDePaphio
sparky: the rest of the land surrounding it is already artificial..

JCY8S
I certainly hope not Steve but one does wonder a bit.

PaphioDePaphio
sparky: the pollution would eventually sneak up to the virgin land and change the orchid's growth habit.

marilyninOttawa Chuck, That was my approach when I first began working with local populations. I started with the lowest of the low, Epipactis helleborine, which is an alien. Later, I moved on to Cypripedium which is also common. Although I do experimental pollinations, none of the resultant fruits are permitted to release seed in the field. Interestingly, I have not any evidence that heavy fruit set affects plants adversely in the first two years after an experiment has been carried out.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Come on Steve, man is just destroying what was here before to build something else (no value judgement on what value the new creation may have)

graphicgreg (crazy photog in Florida)
True Lois, but we cannot deny Brazilian or Haitian country people fuel to heat their homes and their governments are certainly too poor to supply them. We're talking the same thing as the Indians and the Buffalo, they felt that it was THEIR natural resource.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN) Actually KB, much of this type of this pure research is being done by University profs (more likely their grad students).

JCY8S
dkburch - that is a grand idea, but I fear completely impractical and illusionary (or is that visionary?)

marilyninOttawa
Thank you for your comments, Lois.

marylois
Yes, save all the habitat we can...but let's follow all avenues, not just one, all are tenuous, but together can save some species.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
*snort* *snurrfle* *wakes up* Someone say grad students? Doing conservation? *goes back to sleep*

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Marilyn, After listening to this, my opinion is that we need to pollinate and decide to collect the pods or let them go. There will be little effect on nature - in fact, the effect will probably will be positive!

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
I can see right here what is being done to the native species---they slash and burn acres and acres then plant vegetation that's not native so it's sure that the orchids will never propogate!

KB Barrett
40% is better than 0% if you hadn't happened along Sparky. I can just see you explaining to the jail inmates that you were just picking flowers...

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
One PhD in botany claims to do work with Epipactis helleborine. I've e-mailed him several times (he's never replied) on the subject, as Socorro county has one of those rare groupings of the species, here in the desert. Turns out it's all his grad students' work; he's in Houston, Doc is in California. Go figure.

marylois
Greg, I deny them nothing...practically, we KNOW we will have a few refuges. But let's not argue the points covered two and three weeks ago.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Save all the habitat that we can???? How much is that? How many square miles of habitat must be saved to support one species????

KB Barrett
Right on Sparky!

graphicgreg (crazy photog in Florida)
They have just destroyed one of the last 'in town' stands of cypress that was a last hold out of Enc. tampensis...I was just out there two months ago, there will be photos up at the 0 zone in Jan....what am I supposed to do, chain myself to a Bulldozer ? No folks, the best thing we can do to preserve orchid species is to grow them in our collections and share them with interested parties...that's it.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
There should be more and more preserves before it is too late (but alas, it already may be too late).

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Bwuh? That's kind of futile, isn't it, Greg? After all, if we carry it on in collections, why bother? The pollinators will be wiped out, and, well...what happens to the species when the human caretakers expire? I've given this a lot of thought, and it's a perplexing question. Why do it at all?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Right on Greg.

marylois
Marilyn's point that cross-pollination be effected when possible is a point to remember...we lessen odds of reproducing lesser traits.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Ah, but rick, save several square miles of cloud forest and you save not one but thousands of species at once!

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida) The joke about the 40% is how I managed to break a rib while climbing a tree!!!

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Chuck, perhaps not. In order to save the species, you must also save the pollinator. Where do they come from? What if they aren't that local????

graphicgreg (crazy photog in Florida)
not futile AJ, just safe and reasonably controllable. The orchids in our collection receive far better care than they would in the wild.

KB Barrett
That's why I like Star Trek, AJ. There's always hope for the future, or you can just go back in time and collect the species you need to combat the aliens.

marylois
Dr Lawrence Magrath gives this rule of thumb on pollinating and collecting resulting pods:

If you are interested in growing this orchid--PLEASE BUY ONLY NURSERY PROPAGATED PLANTS --NEVER TAKE PLANTS FROM THEIR NATURAL HABITAT, unless they are in imminent danger of being destryed. If you want to try propagating this plant from seed yourself -- USE ONLY SEED PODS OR POLLEN, never take never take seedlings or established plants from their natural habitat. If you do take seed or pollen -- take only a small amount -- NEVER MORE THAN 10% of the seed or pollen from a particular plant or population. Remember our first goal as lovers of native orchids should be to maintain the plants in their NATURAL HOMES. If you know how to pollinate flowers it may be a good idea to pollinate a few flowers on the plant or in the population to insure seed production. If there is a population, then take pollen from the flower of one plant and use it to pollinate the flower of another plant, thus insuring cross-pollination. Never pollinate more than 10% of the flowers -- remember nature will probably do a much better job of insuring cross-pollination between different plants which will result in populations with a larger degree of genetic difference and hence a better chance of surviving. Our goals as Orchid Conservationists should be to protect the plants, their pollinators and their habitats.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
Hey AJ---look at animals---in the future the only place to see them is in zoos!---Just think in 10,000 years the roaches will have 'homo sapien' zoos!

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
I got permits from the state of NM and the feds to collect Malaxis tenuis (now widely thought to be extinct in NM, and nobody really cares despite the fact that NM is the northernmost extent of its range) provided I collect 'no more plants or capsules' that would be reasonable, such that the health and welfare of the plants and the colonies are not endangered. Cute, huh?

graphicgreg (crzy photog in Florida)
I saw a honey bee pollinating one of our Den. crumenatum flowers in the garden last week. This happens all the time here, alien species being pollinated by native insects. These are adaptable plants.

marilyninOttawa
Thank you Rick. If we decide that pollination of wild orchids in certain situations is ethical, then what guidelines if any should we develop for those who will 'go out and pollinate'.

marylois
Perhaps folks should remember it takes 1.5 acres of mature forest to support the ecosystem that allows one human being to breathe...if we take care of that, the orchids will have several million acres of forest.

JCY8S
Greg - did a pod actually form or was it a 'wasted' trip?

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
They pulled M. tenuis from the State's endangered species list, although it's only been found five times (none of which have had repeat records of observation- all from the 60's or 70's originally, some of which have been logged out of existence). I mentioned this to the state conservation experts, and that this might be a valuable genetic factor for the species, and they said, 'Yeah? So? What about it?' These 'biologists' make me laugh sometimes. :-)

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
The Rossioglossum grande shown in Pridgeon's book is being intimately visited by what looks like a housefly.

AJHicks (Seedbank dude in Socorro, New Mexico)
Not all such orchids are that flexible; many are stuck with limited options for pollination, esp. pseudocopulation orchids. :-) I suspect hawk moths are responsible for a fair chunk of native American orchid pollination; what happens if widespread spraying wipes them out?

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Marilyn, I liked Lois' suggestions that we stick to a 10% guideline. I've already found a lot of support for what you already espoused about breeding. It does make a difference as to the age of the flower - pollina and stigma, and .... maybe it doesn't really matter... Let's just say 10% limit. No more than 10% of the flowers, no more than 10% of the plants, etc.

graphicgreg (crazy photog in Florida)
I chased him away John, taking pictures. The flower lasts only one day though, so it's encouraging that a bee found them. We have pods on V. Miss Joachim in the garden and the Onc. sphacelatum always have beans in the spring, lots of plants in the garden set pods.

marilyninOttawa
I might add that we have evidence, now with two species, that embryos seeds from out-crossing are larger than those produced by selfing. This is with normally out-crossing species and not with auto-pollinators. Larger embryos may mean more vigorous progeny but I am not yet certain. All these studies take time!

JCY8S
That is very interesting. My Blettila bed always sets many seed pods (some o which are just rippening now). graphicgreg (crazy photog in Florida)
Of course this is true AJ, many orchids are extremely pollinator-specific. But I can tell you that the black bumblebees have a great time 'screwing' the Onc. sphacelatum in February...and I didn't import the bees. marilyninOttawa
Thank you, Lois, for that note.

JCY8S
Intersting idea, Marilyn. I hope that the study continues as it seems very promising.

marilyninOttawa
Agreed, Chuck.

sparky-steve (of Boca Raton, Florida)
greg---that's funny---I have V. Miss Joachim by the pound! And in my years I have seen only 3-4 at the max fruits on the plant!

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Lois , That IS scary! (At every level!)

gaillevy (Boca Raton, FL.)
Sounds interesting Lois, very interesting.

runnerRick (Rick in Sunny Concord, CA. Diablo View OS, AOS)
Marilyn, dinner ready, got to go. Final idea - pollinate 10% of all plants and harvest 10% of seed pods for GH. Mission should be to maintain species. Objective is to advance the culture and process is to pollinate! What say to that?

MarilyninOttawa I think we might consider the European situation where many terrestrial orchids have eveolved to live in harmony with pasturing. In some instances, conservationists have had to go back to pasturing animals in traditional ways as this keeps the orchid populations thriving.

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Rick, Sounds good to me.

gaillevy (Boca Raton, FL.)
What's new with you, Kathy? Sounds like this discussion has ended??????????

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- 30 - P

http://www.orchidworks.com/bee1.jpg is a photo of a honeybee lost in a flower of Den. crumenatum.

http://www.orchidworks.com/bee2.jpg shows the same bee exiting the flower with the pollinia glued to his thorax. What makes these photos particularly interesting is that these flowers last only a day.

http://www.orchidworks.com/bee3.jpg shows a bumblebee with a hybrid Phal's pollinia stuck to his back. Sometimes the insects find their way in to the shade house. Soneday maybe I'll be fast enough to get a shot of the speedy bumblebees pseudocopulating the Onc. sphacelatum in the spring.

Finally, I offer a grab shot of a typical Florida orchid grower at http://www.orchidworks.com/PorchOrc.jpg

Greg