TOPIC TRANSCRIPT
MASDEVALLIA CULTURE BY MARILYN LIGHT
Present were 15:
Lois
Marilyn
Paula
Peterlin
Marla
Andy
Evlyn
John
Harold
KB Barrett
Darryl
Sam
Ellen
Jim K.
Emily
marilyninOttawa
I see that we now have eight chatters so we might start the discussion with a general poll about what chatters want to discuss. Species? Hybrids? Temperature? Potting media? etc? Marla! Do you raise Masdevallias and if so, which species/hybrids? Steve. What Masdevallias if any do Floridians grow?
What kinds do you see at shows?
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
I have killed several but I have one left that I am trying desperately to keep, a (stenorhynchos x veitchiana) I need to find some warm growers!
sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
VERY FEW!!!!!!! if any at all!!!!!
marylois
I'd like a list of intermediate-warm possibilities, Marilyn.
marilyninOttawa
If you would like to try a warm-grower, I recommend Masd. livingstoneana. I grow it at 25C (77F) and expect that it would love even warmer treatment. It is a species of the Panama lowlands. I purchased my plant from J&L. This year it rewarded me with 15 flowers which have lasted since November. The
flowers are thick, waxy, red on white and very fragrant.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
I had a (stenorhynchos x infracta) that did ok for a while and even bloomed for about a year and then just up and dropped all it leaves and died.
marilyninOttawa
Masdevallias often drop their leaves after being stressed either by heat or cold. Masd. constricta and Masd. hirtzii did this when the temperature was too chilly for them. The good news is that they will recover provided they were not frozen. Usually leaves become spotted then yellow then drop in a matter of days. With cool growing Masdevallias, warmth above what they prefer will first cause flower spikes/buds to abort development. Leaves will become discolored but leaf drop may or may not happen right away. Masdevallias can use a lot of water especially if the humidity is low and the temperature is higher than their ideal. As they transpire, permitting water vapor to escape from the leaves, they cool evaporatively. I have even grown Draculas hydroponically and they loved it! Water quality must be good. Some species and their hybrids are quite sensitive to mineral salts.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
The leaves on mine didn't discolor at all, they looked fine and one minute they were there - the next they were lying on the pot.
marilyninOttawa
If the leaves fell that quickly, Marla, I would pull the plant and check the roots. If the roots look normal, i.e., white and healthy, then set the plant aside in a cooler spot (if warmth is the presumed culprit) or in an
intermediate spot if the plant may have been chilled, and let new shoots develop. If, on the other hand, the roots are brown and especially if the compost is smelly, you may have a 'toxic' situation in the pot. This can
arise from mineral salts build-up, saturated and poorly aerated medium, or a bacterial/fungal pathogen or opportunist. I had this happen once with a favorite Masd. tovarensis. I pulled it apart, discarded the dead parts, dipped the living parts in Physan solution and repotted in new moss in a very open basket. The plant recovered very quickly.
Andy NVA (Northern VA.)
I'm interested in media. What to use. I've been using sphagnum moss, but I've see a lot in stuff like paph. mix.
marilyninOttawa
Andy, as I said in the pre-chat material, I use the Masd root type to determine which medium to use. I use New Zealand Sphagnum Moss or even live sphagnum moss for fine-rooted types and fine bark or a bark/perlite blend for thicker rooted types. Masd. ignea and Masd. tovarensis are thick rooted species while Masd. decumana is fine rooted.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
What root type is infracta?
marilyninOttawa
I consider Masd. infracta to have thicker roots and hence grow it in bark mix.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
My infracta hybrid (with welschii (sp)) is potted in sphagnum.
marilyninOttawa
John, I haven't grown Masd. welschii but I believe that it may be a cool
grower.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Marilyn - My greenhouse never gets over 85 during the summer and goes to about 50 or 55 low during the winter. Is that a good range for Masds?
marilyninOttawa
Sounds like a good range, John. If you are growing intermediate types, try to keep the humidity lower in the warmer months but water frequently. Evaporative cooling can only happen if the atmosphere is not saturated.
marylois
I tried one that J&L said I could do, it lived without prospering one year, dropped all its leaves the next. I should try again cause this greenhouse stays under 85F like John's.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I am trying a new way to grow Masds. I put my new one on the carpet padding like Ed Wright suggested for seedlings. I am hoping that that will increase the humidity.
marylois
I'll try again - do they require much sun, Marilyn - hard to keep cool here in the bright light.
marilyninOttawa
Which species/hybrid did you try, Lois?
marylois
- not a Masd...tried a Pleuro and a Drac. I can grow Pleur. grobyi, of course, and Pleur. longissima.
harold6820 (Farmers Branch, TX)
I did what Lois did. Got 3 from J&L. Killed em REAL dead. Supposedly warmth tolerant too.
marylois
From what Marilyn just said, Harold, I'll bet our humidity is the culprit.
harold6820 (Farmers Branch, TX)
Naw, mine was the heat. Had em in the garage, thinking it would be cooler. Shoulda put em in the GH cause it stays cooler out there in the summer. Live and learn, I have a whole box of tags from my learning experiences. Marilyn, I have learned that I do not have the right conditions to grow them here in
the Texas heat. Have 2 friends with cool boxes in their house that grow them quite well. I am now going to leave the cool growers to Hank and Bobby.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
But Lois, That probably isn't the case for me. I use an evaporative cooler which works very well so my humidity outside is low. In the greenhouse it is in the zone that cattleyas and paphs and phals enjoy. By the way I grow lycastes in the brightest section (but coolest) of my greenhouse - through necessity - and they do rather well.
marylois
Hmmmm - here in Shreveport/Bossier, it's high humidity, high heat -- we use cool walls, and since it's a full wall and we pull a lot of air, it cools, but humidity hovers a bit over 90 percent all summer - except when wind comes from west. (At 95°F and 90% Relative Humidity, the maximum possible cooling effect is a bit less than 5°F (1.8°C) - ML)
harold6820 (Farmers Branch, TX)
John, I also have an E. C. in my GH. I never got above 85 all summer. My garage, however needs some help. I nearly lost most of my phal's in the garage because of the heat.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Harold - were you using lights in the garage?
harold6820 (Farmers Branch, TX)
Yes John. Opened I vent to my house A.C. but it was not enough. I use fluorescent lights in the garage. I am trying to figure out a way to cool it out there B-4 next summer.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Marilyn, I grow only in the house. Boise is very dry but in the house it is usually around 40% average. Would a Masd. do ok if the temp stayed between 65-80 deg.? (At 40%RH, you should be able to get about 15°C differential with evaporative cooling. ML)
marilyninOttawa
You can try growing Masdevallias, at least the small species like Masd. nidifica, in a terrarium. Masdevallias grow well in bright yet filtered light. You could try a combination of Masdevallias, miniature ferns and creeping plants such as Pilea or some miniature Ficus.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
The one I have left is in a 55 gal aquarium with other mini's. The temp in there gets up to 85 and the humidity gets up to 80+ after I spray. I have a muffin fan in there.
marilyninOttawa
Ok. Let's deal with different concepts of warmth-tolerance. Just like you, when I read in a catalogue that a plant is warmth-tolerant, I must believe that until I try it under my conditions. Speaking of species, those which I consider warm-growing are the few which come from warm regions such as Masd. nicaraguae. These species are few and far between but they are definitely warm-growing. When you take a cool growing species such as Masd. coccinea and hybridize it with an intermediate grower such as Masd. infracta, you may get warmth-tolerant progeny but these plants are not warm-growing.
Warmth-tolerant merely suggests that the plants can deal with occasional warm conditions. Certain clones may be better able than others to deal with warm conditions. With Masd. Angel Wings (wurdackii x Angel Frost), one clone I have is warmth-tolerant while the two others I had but gave away were definitely not tolerant of my conditions: they had to be grown much cooler to thrive.
We can have very hot summers. Humid too on occasion. I grow my plants (in summer), on a wooden slat shelf about two inches above the ground. The plants get some direct sun in very early morning but mostly get filtered sunlight. The shadehouse floor is earth covered with landscape fabric (to keep clean and keep out slugs). I wet the floor regularly and have arranged that the back of the growing area is always shaded. It faces north. A breeze can blow over the wet floor and this provides up to a 10°F degree differential even in very hot weather. By hot, I mean 90°F+ with the night temp no lower than 70°F. If we have more than a few days of very hot weather, I may take the plants out and place them over lawn beneath a tree. I wet the
lawn to assist with evaporative cooling. I have never lost a plant under these conditions, even Masd. coccinea.
marylois
I'll have to look for Masd. nicaraguae, Marilyn.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
So, we should look at the species that make up the cross to determine if it will be warm growing or just warm tolerant?
marilyninOttawa
We definitely have to look at hybrid parentage and consider that some progeny may favor one or the other parent. I have found that Masd. Angelita, at least the clone I own), is very warmth-tolerant. Angelita = Angel Frost x sanctae-inesae. I have used this hybrid as a parent of Masd. Dainty Miss (Angelita x schroederiana) and have successfully bypassed the warmth-intolerance of Masd. schroederiana. One clone is less tolerant than the rest but they thrive.
John. Have you tried Masd. floribunda? It should do very well for you.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
No I haven't tried that one. I will write the name down and try to find it. J & L has it listed in their online catalog!!
sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Marilyn---I have tried floribunda---they don't like me!
marilyninOttawa
Marla, I would try growing a Masd tovarensis. There is some variation in temperature tolerance between clones but they are quite tolerant of warmth even though they are usually listed as cool to intermediate. This species has masses of lovely white flowers.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Marilyn, is tovarensis the christmas blooming one? (YES). Are there any warm growing Draculas?
marilyninOttawa
I have found that Draculas can grow in warmth but that you will never get flowers. Because I grow under lights in winter, the pendant habit isn't all that suitable either.
KB Barrett
I'd love to grow Masds, but it's too dry in my conditions, so I'll lurk and learn, for when I get the GH built! In the meantime, if Marilyn could state if Masd Sunset Jaguar is warmth tolerant and if she knows the parentage I'd appreciate it.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Masd. Sunset Jaguar is (chaparensis x Copper Angel) I haven't seen one KB, but it's 1/2 chaparensis, 1/4 triangularis, and 1/4 veitchiana. Sounds nice!
KB Barrett
Thanks, Marla, its pinkish-orangish with heavy deeper pink spots all over it.
marilyninOttawa
Masd. Sunset Jaguar is (Copper Angel x chaparensis). Copper Angel is veitchiana x triangularis. I do not grow this hybrid . I would expect Copper Angel to be intermediate but that the cool-growing chaparensis might influence the progeny towards cool-growing. I expect that some clones would be more tolerant of warmth than others and so would start plants of this hybrid in my coolest section and watch their progress.
sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
marilyn---do you feel that plants grown from seedlings can be 'trained' to accept the conditions you give them?
marylois
Good question, Steve - seems that way to me at times when I bring something on from flask.
marilyninOttawa
Steve. If you have a compot of seedlings (or a flask) and expose these seedlings to your conditions, those that make it have accepted your conditions. They have not been trained but have been selected. This is why I de-flask and plant out as many of my Masd. seedlings as possible. Usually some will make it.
sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
thanks marilyn---that makes sense!
marylois
Yes, does make sense. Also applies to plants bought from similar climates growing better than those from other climates - in the former case, they don't have to readjust.
I've two tiny Sarco. struggling to survive - plus about three in a mini-flask *grin* -- not truly much hope for any of them.
marilyninOttawa
Sarcos definitely like it cool although they will tolerate some heat provided they have good light. I grow quite a few of these and notice a distinct improvement come autumn. Some continue to bloom outdoors all summer too. They seem to need cooler conditions for root growth.
121133ellen
Marilyn can those Masd. that are intermediate grow on the warm side of cool?
marilyninOttawa
Hello Ellen. I as explained earlier, there can be a lot of variation in the behavior of different clones of the same species or hybrid. All of what I grow tolerates heat and some of these are technically cool-growers. These cool growers, however, will never bloom unless I provide cooler conditions. Masd. peristeria blooms in the heat of summer but will never flower unless it is grown cool in winter.
121133ellen
Marilyn, due to lack of space I have some intermediate in the warm section of the cool side. Will they bloom there?
marilyninOttawa
Ellen, could you give me some named examples?
121133ellen
I have Copper Angel, Angel Frost, Jazz Time, etc. They all look great but not flowering.
marilyninOttawa
I expect that your plants need a temperature differential of 8-10°F in order to bloom and that cooler conditions of the order of 60-65°F maximum might bring on flowering in mature plants. Some of your plants could simply be reluctant bloomers under the best of conditions. Jazz Time is Angel Frost x caudivovula.
marylois
In summer, my GH is always cooler than the outside...biggest problem (other than super high humidity) may be the lack of temperature differential...the 95F day that I've kept at 85F in the GH, drops to 85-90 at night - and spouse turns off cooler at night! Many discussions. Won't change. :-[
marilyninOttawa
Certainly, lack of temperature differential could affect certain orchids and some more than others.
marylois
The GH lack of summer temp differential is the reason why I put all that wintered on the top of benches in the lath house for the summer...the 'under bench' plants come up on the bench in the greenhouse...they are so happy to see light, I don't think they care what the temp is!
marilyninOttawa
When I visited San Francisco a few years ago, I saw how Masdevallias were grown in relatively bright light. This encouraged me to provide as much light as was possible without overheating. In spring, this means giving the plants full sky exposure on overcast days and morning/late afternoon sun on sunny but cooler days. In warm weather, these hardened, stronger plants seem better able to weather the heat. Interestingly, I have had to be more careful with warm-growing Masdevallias getting too cold than the reverse. Warm-growers do not like the cold!
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Marilyn, any ideas on culture requirements for discoidea? I have it in sphagnum in a plastic pot (3 in) getting phal light, watered once a week, fed same as other plants every 2-3 weeks same concentration. Intermediate temps. Won't bloom for me and has stopped growing. What conditions does this want, so I can provide it?
marilyninOttawa
In answer to Kathy's question: Masd. discoidea is a member of the Polyanthae, a group with many flowers per inflorescence. While I do not grow this intermediate to warm-growing species, it is on my want list. This Brazilian Masdevallia has laterally flattened purple and white striped flowers with white tails. I would try it first in sphagnum moss but it could also be grown in a moss/bark mix. Watch out for intolerance of cold temps. J&L sells this species as do Equatorial Plants in England.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Thanks, Marilyn! I'll try the bark/moss combo. BTW I'll readily admit that I can't grow these things!!! I've had my share of accordioned leaves and aborted flowers so I know I can't grow them.
marilyninOttawa
Yes Kathy, some Masdevallias can be very slow growing but others are very quick. Which species/hybrids are you growing?
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Oh, I've tried Sunset Jaguar, Marguerite, deucumana, other chaparensis hybrids, I presently have the discoidea and a tuerckhemeii which are hanging in there but not doing much. Are Masds generally slow growing? I hate to ask such a general question, because so much depends on how well you grow
things, but mine never seem to get as big as those I see in shows. Mine always look like seedlings, leaves about 1-2 in tall. Never the 5-6 -7 in specimens in shows.
marilyninOttawa
I find that Masd. tovarensis grows very quickly, at least for me. I have had a specimen size plant - but beware. Once a plant gets to that size it can be vulnerable to problems such as the dreaded leaf drop. Repot often and divide before it is too late. The first examples you mention Kathy I would consider to be cooler rather than warmer growing. How is the water quality? Are you using de-ionized or RO water? Most Masdevallias are intolerant of mineral salts buildup. If your Masd. discoidea ever blooms, post a pic!
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
I have tried to limit myself to the warm growers, but I'll admit that I sometimes just buy what looks good. Plus most vendors sell seedlings, and those plants in small pots dry out too quickly in my hands. But, you know it probably is the water!! It really is salty here. I'll try using RO, I buy it for some Disas Barbara talked me into buying. And if it will bloom for me I will post a pic!
marilyninOttawa
If water quality is the problem, then you will see a definite improvement when you make the change! Flush or even soak all pots once you get good quality water. For what you invest in plants, the water cost is worth it.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
I agree Marilyn, I'll try the water change and let you know.
marilyninOttawa
Kathy, why not try what African Violets growers do. Wick the plants. Place a wick in the potting medium and extend it out beneath the pot onto a wet fibre mat.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
I assume the plant to be wicked is in moss? and the wick is made of????
marilyninOttawa
Yes, the plants would preferably be potted in moss but could be in a moss/bark mix in which case I would ensure that a thick strand of moss accompanied the wick into the mix center. I think that this might be well
worth while trying even with just one plant in a saucer. Use candle or lamp wicking probably available in craft shops. You might look up sources through links with Violet fancier web pages.
marylois
You know, Marilyn, even I will try again using distilled water - what will I need to add other than 7-7-7 to use distilled?
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
I'll try it, as you say, there's not much to lose. BTW I got my discoidea from Larry at Orchidanica, he's on the OrchidMall.
marilyninOttawa
Lois. First of all, I wouldn't worry about fertilizer. Start by getting the plants in a relatively salt-free medium. Fertilizer application can be quite tricky with some Masdevallias. I would try a very dilute (1/4 tsp to a
gallon) application of 7-7-7 with added chelated micronutrients. I use Dynagro. Fertilize and a few days later, flush with plain water.
marylois
I use Dynagro as well. Yes, I'll do that.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Marilyn, Do Masd. prefer to be watered from the bottom like Draculas? Set the pot in a tray with a little water?
marilyninOttawa
I can't say they prefer to be watered from below but I have never seen any problems arise when doing so. You must be careful of possible virus transmission through a common water tray. Very important with Masdevallias which are quite susceptible to virus.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
I would set each in its own saucer. What about superthrive? How often do you fertilize?
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Lois, I thought you used Peters peat lite!?
marylois
I did, but when I switched to media which is mostly charcoal, and started adjusting pH with citric acid, Dynagro became available and I started using that...successfully.
marilyninOttawa
In winter, I fertilize about once a month. I only use Superthrive when de-flasking. Be careful not to force growth. In spring, I do re-potting, get the plants flushed with a good rain, then apply fertilizer while the weather is still cool. I never fertilize in hot weather.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Never fertilize in hot weather! Around here you'd never fertilize *G*. How hot is hot?
marylois
Here too! Most of our winter days are over 75F. That's like 'never water when it's overcast' -- been two weeks now -- tomorrow I water some things regardless.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Lois, I liked someone's comment - was it here or on OLD? - where they said they've been growing for 20 yrs and still don't know when to water!
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
We have been doing the weakly weekly routine with most of our plants, I guess that wouldn't be good for the Masd.?
marilyninOttawa
Kathy, If your plants are growing actively, then you may fertilize. If the plants are not growing then they do not need fertilizer. How hot is hot? Well here, I would stop fertilizing at 25C (about 75F) because I know that much hotter weather usually follows. When you are growing in moss, you must watch that there is not too much algal growth on the moss. Algal growth is enhanced with fertilizer application. I suppose we get back to the most basic part of horticulture: watch your plants and how they behave under your conditions.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Marilyn, I wondered about that algal growth, but most of what I've read says not to worry about it. Personally if I was growing in algae I'd hate it, so I always imagined my plants would too. So you'd try to minimize the algae? By watching the fert to begin with? Repot if necessary?
marilyninOttawa
You do not have to worry about algal growth but if it is present and in large amounts, I consider that there is a bit too much fertilizer being applied. The algae will smother very tiny seedlings but not generally bother
larger plants unless the layer is so thick that the entry of air/water is diminished. Then you could have a problem, especially if the temps are high.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Speaking of saucer culture, a member of our society started putting his Catasetums in saucers and got remarkable new bulb growth, like 4-5x the size of the bulbs grown his regular way.
marilyninOttawa
I am not surprised that the Catasetums grew that way. Orchids are greedy feeders of water if they have healthy roots and are being raised under the correct temperature conditions. You must balance the water uptake with good light to avoid soft growth and thus heightened susceptibility to disease.
Emf31
Hi, Lois and everyone, just stopping by to say hi. I am losing my Nanodes porpax. It's mounted on bark, and the roots have all gotten rotted off during a stupid maneuver I performed. Now the plant is shriveled and there appears to be one living section. This plant just finished dropping off its fifth bloom too.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Sounds like a little tincture of time is needed to see if the remaining good section will continue to grow. Would you cut away the rotted portions? Or leave it be?
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Thank you, Marilyn!!! Emily, don't listen to me I have no idea what I'm saying!!!
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Goodnight, Marilyn, and Thanks for the good information. My Masd. probably thanks you too!!!
marylois
Night - and many thanks, Marilyn. Not bad advice, Kathy. Em, what did you do to it?
Emf31
I feel so bad about this. It's one of the 3 plants I didn't get rid of, all of which are being neglected. I put it in a tray of water to keep the bark moist. Should have just left it where it was. My husband gave me the plant for Xmas '96. I can't let it die! There isn't much left, though. Just small section. 1 inch long.
marylois
Ah, yes, the soaking in water trick -- well, what Kathy says is right - unpot, cut away the soft, rotted roots and dying growth...repot the part that still looks good, roots or not...may put out new roots.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
Repot or re-mount Lois? She had it mounted on bark. Emily, which other 2 did you keep?
marylois
Is it on a mount or potted now?
Emf31
I kept an amabilis hybrid phal my father-in-law gave me- my first orchid, and a tiny Stelis grobyi that my friend gave me.
marylois
If mounted, then I'd just pull the dead stuff away so the remaining live part can get some air.
Emf31
Okay. I'll give it a go. Anyway, I better go, too. It's late and I need sleep.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N. Calif.)
I'm going to call it a night too. Good luck with the porpax Em. Remember orchids are hardy plants...no really they are. I have a book that says so.
Emf31
Thanks, Kathy- I think I read that book, too! Nite all!
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