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Present were: 17
Marylou
Richard WPB
Lois
Leslie
John
Marilyn
Mike
Sparky
KB Barrett
Marla
Jason
Chuck
Jim K
Uncle Earl
Andy
Karen
Susan
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
I'm really looking forward to this evening's chat. I have alot to learn when
it comes to paphs.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
RW - Have you heard of the Paphiopedilum Guild that meets near Morrow Bay
in Calif? Norris Powell organizes it. I am going a week from Friday. I always
enjoy the talks and meeting so many people.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Yes, Norris sends the invite each year, John.
marilyninOttawa
Before I get dropped by the power failure, I would like to know Bob's comments
about why certain paphs grow better in say bark and others in say a mix.
KB Barrett
OK, I'll echo Marilyn's question to Bob. (Val Tonkin grows all her paphs
in fine bark, that's it.)
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
What do you mean bark vs mix Marilyn?
marilyninOttawa
Specifically, my Paph. hirsutissimum, Paph. Puddle and Paph. Rosy Dawn grow
best in plain bark while others like Paph. Valwin, Paph. Miss Faith Hanbury
and Paph. Transvaal do best in a mix of bark, perlite and charcoal. Any comments
Bob?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
I really don't know, Marilyn. We use a mix for everything, same components,
just vary the amounts depending on plant. We don't use charcoal, we're a
little afraid not knowing what nutrient may be removed by it.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
I'm trying lava rock, in a plastic pot. What do you think! Crazy?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
I don't think the exact components are as critical as long as you can control
pH, it dries out at a reasonable rate and allows decent air exchange, and
provides sufficient density to anchor the plants firmly
marylois
I've at last wakened to the fact that my reduced pH water is not good for
my paphs!
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Regarding pH. I have seen a friend's collection go down hill and be almost
destroyed because of low pH irrigation.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif.)
So you'd shoot for a pH of ????
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
We use RO water, and really advise the use of a fairly pure water supply
to optimally grow Paphs, but because you are working with unbuffered water
you have to watch the pH very closely. We shoot for about 6 - 6.5 in the
irrigation water/fertilizer mix.
marylois
I've only been saved by the use of oyster shell in my mix...reforming immediately
on paph/phrag watering - to low a pH is probably why St Swithin has yet
to bloom.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Lois - St Swithin is one I just can't grow large enough to bloom. I just
sits there but doesn't do one thing or another!!
NativeOrchid (Carol in Maryland)
Marylois, my pH is 4.5 - 5 and I bloom paphs great!
KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif.)
I've tried topdressing with bone meal (usually used in my yard for planting
daffodil bulbs) but you'd gotten better results with ground shells or ???
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
What about using a top dressing of a little dolomite lime?
marylois
I've used dolomite lime from time to time. The oyster shell up close to
the stem seems to inhibit stem rot according to Mable Gardner, a local paph
expert - and it seems to work that way for me.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
We prefer the oyster shell over lime and bone meal. Those will tend to quickly
wash down through an open mix. The oyster shell sits on the surface - apply
as a top dress. Then you know when to replace it. The others are a quick
fix, but not as lasting
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Lois - is that just ground up oyster shells or powdered
marylois
Ground up oyster shell
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
Where do you buy oyster shells?
marylois
Your pet store sometimes carries it - some feed stores too. If not, they
can order for you. ...actually called 'crushed oyster shell'
ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
I use the dolomite lime and yes much of it washes through, but when repotting,
I've been surprised to see little grains of it stuck to the roots. The dolomite
also has Mg, I don't think oyster shell has much of that, although I've
never tried it (not many oysters in MN)
KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif.)
That's interesting about the shells preventing stem rot, Lois. I wonder
what the interaction is there, can't just be pH.
marylois
Believe the shell dries out faster than the medium, ergo less rot.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Bob - is Paph Denehurst 'Surprise' still used to improve form?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
I don't think Denehurst is being used a lot, we favor one of its progeny,
Saint Ouen's Bay (if my memory is working).
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Which clone of Saint Ouen's Bay do you favor? It is available?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
St Ouens Bay 'Cerritos' AM - not too readily available.
marilyninOttawa
Bob, do you feel that there are certain Paphs (individuals within a species
or grex) grow better under a variety of conditions than others. You could
call them the opposite of runts.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Absolutely, Marilyn.
marilyninOttawa
Do you use F.C. Puddle?
kawacym (Jim in San Jose, Ca.)
Have to tell everyone, my phrag Hanne Popow finally opened! Question: Is
it supposed to be multi-floral? One open another bud is enlarging.
marylois
Yep, it's successive blooming -2 or sometimes 3.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
You will get two flowers open at once on many Hanne Popows, you'll get a
lot of flowers altogether from a mature plant
marylois
Guess I've only seen babies *baby blush*
kawacym (Jim in San Jose, Ca.)
Thanks. All of the phrag Hanne Popows I'd seen only had one flower with
no other buds present.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
About the species....in what group does tigrinum belong and do you know
what kind of conditions it needs?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Marla, I think tigrinum is section Paphiopedilum. We keep it pot bound,
try to grow it cooler.
Let the tigrinums dry out a little more than some, bright light, but not as much as strap leaf multiflorals.
ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Bob - speaking of tigrinum, where did this species come from (native to)?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
P. tigrinum is Chinese.
Mike 474
Bob--when you say cool for tigrinums--how cool do you mean--55F?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Re tigrinums, not necessary to keep them that cool. We don't let their greenhouse
below 64 actually, except for 5-6 weeks in the fall. Especially after they
set buds, though, they don't like to get real hot. They will quickly blast
them.
marylois
How low do you let it go to for the 3-4 weeks in fall?
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Blasting buds in warm weather is something I have to face as we have been
known to go to 90 in January sometimes.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
In the fall the breeding plant house is let down to about 58 at night, Lois.
The other thing with tigrinum is to let the plants get large, they hold
their buds much better as big plants.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Would you use oyster shell on a tigrinum? Like some of the other chinese
Paphs.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
We don't use oyster shell on tigrinum. They are basically epiphytes.
prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
I've sprinkled shells on all my Paphs.(I have 3!) Is this correct, or should
shells only be used on limestone dwellers?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Depends on what they are Susan, there are a lot of species it would be detrimental
to.
prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Bob, They are : insigne, Rosy Dawn and kolopakingii.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
I would use it on the insigne only, Susan, it probably won't matter with
the others. We wouldn't use oyster shell on most of barbata. Some specifics,
bougainvilleanum, mastersianum, papuanum, wentworthianum, lawrenceanum.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif.)
Shells on terrestrials only, or also lithophytes?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Shells on Parvis and Brachys, and the Northern Indian species.
Mike 474
Bob--any other wisdom on tigrinum other than letting it dry out and underpotting
it--it truly languishes (sp.??) for me.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Water quality is another issue with tigrinum, maybe that's the problem.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
I have a cross of gardneri x sanderianum with a leaf span of about 12"
when can I expect it to flower? Any ideas?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Leslie, wilhelminae (gardneri) will reduce the size, so that is near blooming
size. However, wilhelminae also tends to clump, so you may need a few starts.
Andy NVA (Northern VA.)
Bob, do you do your own flasking? If so, what media do you use?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
We make about 5,000 flasks here a year. We use a proprietary medium we developed.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
Do rothschildianum crosses take longer to bloom than most multi floral paphs?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Paph. rothschildianum hybrids can take a while. However, there are a lot
of variables. Some clones seem to produce reluctant bloomers, other easier.
The other thing is the tremendous plant size variation in different roth
clones, some are monsters needing more time to mature, some are much more
compact.
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I have 2 plants of Roth both I got as the same sided seedlings. 1 has bloomed
for the last 4 years and the other is now about 14 inches across after sitting
still for a long time!
KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif.)
Roth needs slightly more light than others, would you say?
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
So I guess it just depends on what it's crossed with. I love multi florals!
I just need the knowledge to grow them. LOL
JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Kathy, I think that roth seedlings definitely need more warmth until they
send out a second growth then more light and less heat.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Roth likes a fair amount of light, certainly, but Paphs can be pretty adaptable,
generally, with regard to light and temperature. We grow all of our adult
Paphs in the same greenhouse, same temp and shade. They get moved to certain
spots for temperature or extra shading from other plants depending but...
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
That's good to know, living in So. Fla. I wondered if weather temp. would
affect flowers
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Bob--when you use high quality water (i.e., R.O. or distilled) do you use
this straight at times or do you use a low N2 (like 150ppm)?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
We fertilize at virtually every watering with the RO, it leaches too effectively
if you don't. We don't exceed 150 ppm nitrogen, probably the total feed
is less than 400 ppm
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Bob--What ratio of N-P-K do you use?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Basic feed is Excel Cal-Mag. Sometimes also use a high phosphorus Peat-Lite,
and a mixture of Dark Weather Feed and Geranium Feed.
ChuckMyr
Bob, how do you handle armeniacum? I repotted mine early last summer into
a 4" standard plastic pot that I drilled through with a couple dozen
1/2 inch holes. Now growths are comming through all over the place - its
growing very well, but I have no idea what to do with it when it needs repotting
again!
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
When the armeniacum stolens grow out of the drainage holes we cut the pot
off with tin snips to repot.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Our armeniacum, micranthum, delenatii, etc. all have their new growths coming
right out of the base of the plant with no runner. is that alright?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Nothing wrong with that, Marla.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Would culture cause that?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
I don't know Marla, there is a lot of clonal variation also.
ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin MN)
Bob, what do you do then with those growths that had been coming out the
holes though? Cut them off, try to save them as divisions??
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
No Chuck, don't take the stolens off at that stage, you will have a hard
time getting them to develop properly. Just pot them back up attached. If
they are under the mix they'll eventually emerge. Our basic policy on dividing
plants is to get one when reasonable for safety, and then let them stay
as big as they like. You will get better blooming and better breeding plants
Tarwood (Karen, NY)
Bob, I have a petered out Paph. parishii...should I use the Cal-Mag to perk
it up?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Cal Mag shouldn't be used without knowing what you irrigation water contents
are. We use it because we are using RO water. And again, if you do have
pure water, a fertilizer like Cal Mag is quite acidic, and the pH needs
adjustment. While we really recommend using a pure water supply if you are
not lucky enough to have one naturally, you have to be careful to provide
everything needed by the plant and you have to be extra careful about pH.
Tarwood (Karen, NY)
Bob, I have very hard water so that won't work. Any suggestions on perking
up the parishii, I would hate to lose it. Its in baby bark in a shaded southwest
window and have bloomed beautifully before with multiple flowers. I feed
it DynaGrow 'Grow' 1/4 strength twice a month and flush the other times.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Karen, water is probably one of the problems then. Keep it underpotted,
and let it dry out pretty well, it has thick fleshy leaves that tell you
it can take this. Also, it doesn't need very high light.
Tarwood (Karen, NY)
Bob, would using bottled water such as Poland Springs, etc. help then?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Karen, it might unless it's a mineral water.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
Bob, is it true that deeper pots are better for paphs.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
We tend to use a deeper pot up through the 4" size. We think the real
key is underpotting, use a square pot so you can anchor the plant better,
they shouldn't rock about when you water.
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
I hate to start on another subject, but is it normal for complex paphs to
get floppy after they bloom. and sometimes before?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Re complex Paphs, that's not really what we experience. Have you checked
to make sure you have good roots, or is it possible that they are not getting
sufficient light?
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Light level might be a good possibility...thanks!!
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
If the paphs are potted in lava rock, what should my fertilization schedule
be?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
I really don't have any experience with lava rock, but I wouldn't think
it would affect fertilization rates much. They are going to depend on how
often you water, how much light you are giving, what you temps are, etc.
You can't really give out a specific feeding or water schedule. I told Jim
Watson at the AOS that I quit reading an article every time I see 'water
2 times per week'. There are too many variables to consider to make blanket
statements. The other aspect of that to always remember is that everything
is interrelated. More light, probably more water. Same with temp, but also
more air movement with more temp
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
Well, the light is a little less than catt. light, I water at about twice
a week, and the temps here are pretty warm, for now.
prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Bob, amen on the watering! Ive kept orchids for nearly 20 yrs and I still
am not sure about watering!
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Bob--what sort of light levels do you recommend for artificial lights? 1000-2000fc?
I've heard Jerry Fischer say that 400-600fc of 16hrs of light is adequate?
Do you agree?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
We've bloomed just about every Paph species under fluorescent lights. I'd
say you want to get up to about 800-1000 for most. We always had burned
leaf tips because they were shoved right up against the lights. You will
occasionally find a clone that will resist blooming under lights, trade
it to someone with a greenhouse and get another that will.
NativeOrchid (Carol in Maryland)
I grow my Paphs under HID's....not burned leaf tips! I just bloomed a St.
Swithin (1st bloom) that I got from Krull-Smith as a 2" pot! I give
my brachy's about 1500 fcs...multiflorals, 2500.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
Carol, how long did it take?
NativeOrchid (Carol in Maryland)
LeslieV1, I think, 4 or 5 years.......The cats knocked it over when I brought
it upstairs and broke the spike in half...I HAD 4 buds!
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Bob--do you have any specific recommendations for the blepharopetalums?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Blepharopetalum is an older division of barbata, as I recall. I don't which
of the species are in the 'eyelash' group. I guess that's bougainvilleanum,
violascens and papuanum and wentworthianum.
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
I was wondering about light levels for violascens, zieckianum, sangii? It
seems that 800-1000fc may be a little much in my limited experience and
reading?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
The biggest concern with that group is water quality. Even with RO we reduce
the fertilizer level half again for them and flush occasionally.
Light levels of 800 - 1000 are fine in our experience. They do fine for us, but we are attentive to salt levels.
ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Bob, 2 1/2 years ago I got a seedling from Bergstrom called P. stonei var.
latifolium. in the AOS ad but the lable just said stonei jungle jem (or gem) x
self. My understanding is that all stonei latifoliums came from a clone
called 'Ruth Kennedy'. Jerry Fisher considers these plants a compact form
of kolopakingii. What are your thoughts on this critter???
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
As far a s stonei latifolium, I think that there have been clones such as
the Fred Cummings clone that were not derived from Ruth Kennedy. I would
agree that thay are not stoneis, but I also don't think that they are pure
kolopakingii. I think they are probably of hybrid origin originally.
sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida
Bob---how easy (or hard) is it for you to flower concolor, niveum, philippinense
and spicerianum?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Steve, none of those species poses any real problem to bloom. Some clones
of philippinense require fairly high light levels to bloom, should be no
problem in Florida.
sparkysteve
Thanks, Bob---I realize they are VERY simple for me---I was wondering about
the rest of the US.
ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Steve, the concolor and spicerianum are very easy for me here in MN. I don't
have a nivium and my philippinense is just a small seedling so don't know
about those yet.
sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida
Because of an early cold snap here my spicerianum (3 spikes) bloomed almost
3 months early this year.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
I think that all of my paphs were in 2" pots when I bought them. I
didn't realize when I bought them that it may take 10 years for them to
bloom!
marylois
Ah, Leslie - even those who know it buy 'em with hopes of getting an expensive
plants at lower cost. *s*
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
I guess you're right, Marylois. The cost of a blooming size plant is astronomical!
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Leslie, you can also bloom a lot of Paphs from a 2" pot in a year or
two.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
Which ones, Bob? Any multiflorals?
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
Pot size is deceiving. we have a spicerianum in a 2" pot with only
a 2 1/2-3" LS that threw up a bloom.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Generally multiflorals crossed to single flowered species will bloom pretty
quickly. Especially if smaller multiflorals such as wilhelminae or glanduliferum
are used.
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Bob--would you also agree that sanderianum clones need a high light level
to bloom?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Not necessarily, Mickey. There seem to be different populations in the wild
adapted to either high light or more shady conditions. Ours are under 70%
shade.
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
In particular do you know anything about the ever-popular progeny of the
Jacob's Ladder x Deep Pockets grex?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Mickey, we haven't flowered any of that grex yet.
NativeOrchid (Carol in Maryland)
I had to get five growths on my philippinense before it would bloom. Now
it gives me lots of flowers every year!
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Also, there are fairly compact clones of philippinense out there, and even
small clones of roth that seem to impart easier, quicker blooming on their
progeny.
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Carol--where do you grow your philippinense? GH or lights?
NativeOrchid (Carol in Maryland)
Mikey, I grow everything under HID's...my catts like them too.
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
I'm fascinated by your observation of what light levels work for you considering
the sunlight levels reported in the wild for sanderianum by Fischer et al.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Here's the ultimate Paph growing tip, I hear it from Lynn all the time.
Pay attention to your plants, watch and observe them closely. Grow good
roots first, if you've got good roots, you'll have a good plant.
If you observe them closely enough, they'll tell you if they need more or less light, if they have a calcium or magnesium deficiency, if they aren't drying out enough, etc.
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Quite true--however, trying to figure out what's making the unhappy ones
unhappy sometimes requires a lot of trial and error.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
When should you repot?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Leslie, repot any time. I've watched Lynn repot lowiis with five flowers
open on a spike. Repot before the mix breaks down significantly, or any time
something doesn't look right. I've also seen Lynn repot a plant three times
in one week because it wasn't potted just right. Water wasn't flowing through
the pot evenly, or the plant wasn't anchored well enough.
Andy NVA (Northern VA.)
Can I borrow, Lynn?
sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida
Bob---I have the complete opposite---I have a concolor that has been in
the same pot for 5 years and still OK.
LeslieV1 (From Parkland, Fla.)
What does a mag. deficiency look like?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Magnesium and calcium will both tend to give you a yellow cast to the plant.
One will be on the entire plant, the other will start at the lower leaves
because the nutrient is salvagable and transportable within the plant. I
never remember which is which with looking it up.
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Bob--on a more personal level--will you guys have any more tigrinums for
sale in the near future--they are about as difficult to find as hen's teeth?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
There'll be flasks available next year. They grow pretty fast from flask.
ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
I just repotted my largest roth - not because it was outgrowing the pot
but because root growth at the bottom of the pot was pushing the base of
the plant well above the rim of the old pot!
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Well, things seem to be calming down, any last questions for tonight?
send Orchids (Marla in Boise)
How large does a tigrinum need to be to be blooming size. Will it bloom
on a single growth or does it need more?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Marla, probably not on a single growth. Even if it does bud on a plant that
small, it would have a high probability of blasting. Our most consistent
success with tigrinums has been with plants 4-6 growths and up.
bmtorchids (Barbara from S.F. Bay area)
Bob, I have a niveum hybrid. The bloom is very clean and nice shape. Now after
in bloom for about 3 months, the bottom leaves turning brown half way. What
should I do?
KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif.)
A popular roth hybrid on the market now is 'Chester Hills' x 'Janet' something
or other.. is that an easy one to bloom?
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Kathy, I'm not experienced with either clone. I believe at least the Janet
clone is a fairly easy bloomer. A lot of the problems seem to go back to
Charles E and its progeny.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif.)
Are Eric Young's seedlings known for being twitchy? It seems like they are
not for the beginner.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Are you referring to the Phrags, Kathy? We've not had problems with them,
except for initial dehydration from shipping.
KB Barrett (Kathy in N Calif.)
No, I have a St Swithin cross and another, just having the dickens of a time
with them. Probably cause they were so small when I got them. It's a St Swithin
x sanderanianum and the other is transvaal x chamberlainianum. Just plain
failure to thrive.
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
You may notice a theme here, no two plants are alike. Don't give up on the
grex because of one!
bmtorchids (Barbara from S.F. Bay area)
Kathy, you may need to use good water for them.
ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Speaking of Roth clones, Bob, do you know when 'Rex' was awarded and what
its 'parents' were??
RWCandor (Bob in Upstate NY)
Rex was awarded a number of years ago, I forget what the story on it was
but there was an article in the Orchid Advocate a number of years ago about
it. It is a very large plant, and very lightly colored flower. We've bloomed
it, and I feel it is over rated. Big flower, though, with a broad dorsal.
I guess I'll sign off then. Goodnight all. I'll have Lynn edit the transcripts to catch my errors.
Mike 474 (Mickey in Chicago)
Goodnight all--happy growing
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