OrchidSafari ARCHIVES*

Present were 22:

Carol NativeOrchid
sparkysteve
marilyninOttawa
Sharon Ruckster1
ChuckMyr
Foxtail2
John H Neo.falcata1
Barbara bmtorchids
marylois
James 55SS
John Y JCY8S
AndyNVA
MargaretC - new
Gaillevy
AJHicks
Fleur
Paula
Ellen
graphicgreg
emf31
Susan prankster

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
Are we going to talk about Orchid Evolution?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Ooooh. Orchid Evolution. THAT was what I was supposed to babble about tonight. Anyone else read Arditti's book 3, the section on paleobotany of the Orchidaceae?

55SS (James in Fresno, where its been sunny for two whole days!)
The only thing by Arditti that I have partly read is Microprop of Orchids.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Why do they say that Cyps are the least evolved of the orchids?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
There's a lot of contention as to whether or not cyps, phrags and paphs are even "in" the Orchidaceae. I suppose a lot of it depends upon some kind of "proto-orchid" model, where everything has evolved from one single host. "Lucyorchid," for example. Accordingly, the ones that differ least from Lucy = the cyps.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
Why assume that there is a Lucyorchid? Parallel evolution from different sources? After all, I think some people I know are Aliens, not Homo Sapiens!

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Carol - I KNOW some that are definitely not from Earth!!!

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Well, there "is" no Lucyorchid; it's an excellent way to model it, though. With most groups, ancestral development is best analyzed by hypothesizing that there is a common ancestor, and working backwards.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
...and why make that assumption in the first place? Common ancestor? Nah! Too limiting!

Andy NVA (Northern VA.)
At what point does an orchid move from a variety to a species?

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Andy, isn't that the BIG question that causes so much discussion and argument?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Andy, depends upon whether you're a lumper or a splitter. :-) Splitters like to think that every variation makes it its own subspecies (or, if it differs enough, its own species). Lumpers do the opposite: variation does not a separate species make! Indeed, many people making rulings on taxonomy have no formal training- but this matters little, since nobody has to abide by anyone else's rules, anyway. :-)

marilyninOttawa
Aaron, perhaps you could comment on the possible bias in a seed bank brought about by seed donations from a very few limited sources.?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Marilyn. The Seedbank relies upon relatively few donors, to be sure; part of this is a function of how generous people are, as well as their own need for seed (since they get credit for what they donate). I suspect the heart and soul of it all is that most other groups have seed banks; the orchids never really did.

marilyninOttawa
Aaron. Do you request a seed pedigree from donors?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Kind of. Since I can't guarantee what I send people, I can't ask for a guarantee as to what I get. Plus, it'll be years before anyone finds out otherwise. Yeek! My saving grace is that all seed gets the same credit; therefore, there is no benefit for people to intentionally mislabel seed. On top of all of it, I'm getting quite good at telling (very roughly) what seed belong to what genera.

Fleur (Tasmania)
I thought evolution of orchids was when you buy one and then find you have hundreds of them. *grin*

Andy NVA (Northern VA.)
Good point, Fleur!!!

marilyninOttawa
What do you mean by 'groups'? Organizations? or Families of plants?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Plant associations: for example, the carnivorous plant 'group,' or the alpine plants 'group.' Ditto with cacti, succulents, water lilies, and so forth. The best way to circumvent international and other laws is by moving dry, live seed. Of course, with water lilies, "dry" live seed means it's dead. :-P

marylois
Yes! And why no "phyllum" in Orchidaceae?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
No phyllum because they are with the lilies and magnoliaphyta. :-)

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Are we promoting an evolutional direction when hybridizers try to stabilize such traits as peloric forms. These are simple malformations to me.

marilyninOttawa
Phragmipediums sometimes produce the 'missing' third anther.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
John, it is only an evolutional direction as long as the population is supported by people. Put those babies in the wild and their dead meat!

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
We're promoting direction (whether it's evolutionary or not, since we're not doing it for bringing them back to the wild) just by 'selecting' them. We purchase the largest, showiest specimens for sale, when this is not something that is selected in the wild. Who "knows" what turns on a pollinator? ;-)

marilyninOttawa
To me there is a "horticultural" direction which is more by whim and fashion AND the "conservation" direction which should be by random selection only.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
I know what turns on a few of my pollinator friends :)

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Marilyn, I thought the staminode of the cyps was a sterile stamen (modified filament without the anther).

marilyninOttawa
Yes, Chuck, but sometimes, admittedly rarely, the staminode produces a third anther toward the tip. I believe that this has been documented with the 'pouchless' Phrag. Sorry, I cannot remember the name. caudatum var. ?

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Phrag lindenii? (pouchless)

121133ellen
I think the phrag. you are talking about is lindenii, Marilyn

marilyninOttawa
I think that you are right, Ellen.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
I have the Bakers' book in front of me it is lindenii.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
"Hi. We're with the Taxonomy Police. Please turn in your plant tags immediately".

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Carol, I certainly hope so, for the peloric forms at least. I do not think that they are pretty and they definitely should not proliferate! (I really seem rather strident don't I? *VBG*)

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
Good question. I am making some big assumptions there, myself!

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Heck, species used to be defined as a kind of self-sufficient, "unable to breed with members of another species" (which is how people get away with breeding wolves with domestic dogs). But, with orchids, when we can hybridize between "genera"....

prankster d (Susan from Oregon)
Hi Folks! John, I agree with you about pelorics. I don't even care for splash petals.

marylois
How about listing classification nomenclature from species on up? *sigh* Each time I think I've figured it out, some other 'authority' uses the same categories differently.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
I think they're still kicking around Mexipedium, aren't they? Even though it was assigned to its own genus, CITES still covered it under Appendix I. *snork*

Tex1 Dan (Dan from Wharton, Texas)
Carol, I must admit we breed for our likes and desires, not necessarily for survival in the wild. But who knows!

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I fully agree, Carol!

marilyninOttawa
Hybrids can and do establish themselves when compatible species are brought together in a tropical garden environment. If the plants bloom at the same time and if the pollinator is not too fussy then boom... seeds. If the habitat will support seedling growth and if the mycorrhizal fungus to promote germination is present then boom... seedlings. And these will grow to blooming size. Whether they will reproduce themselves however is another matter.

121133ellen
I kind of came in in the middle, but we breed hybrids for size, color, etc., not the stamina needed for survival.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
And the myco fungi are ubiquitous, being (in many cases) potent plant pathogens.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
Ellen, more breeders should take stamina into consideraton! I'm tired of wimpy plants with beautiful flowers!

marylois
Hybrid vigor has traditionally been improved by backcrossing to the species - but are some of the species as vigorous as they once were?

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
marylois, I think so. In paphs, I see much more vigor with the newer selfings than with the jungle collected divisions.

121133ellen
The species are also being grown in greenhouse so they don't duplicate the same environment.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Lois, I would think those species under cultivation for some time would be more vigorous (in captivity) than their wild counterparts (in captivity).

marilyninOttawa
I have some evidence (as published in the NANTTOC Proceedings, that outcrossing of Cyp species promotes vigor while selfing or even near neighbor breeding is less productive of vigor. That is only with Cyps of course and may be quite different with other genera.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
Marilyn, is that due to the isolation factor of some populations?

marilyninOttawa
It may very well be that selected vigorous clones when line bred may
maintain this vigor. We will have to do the looong experiment.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Marilyn, that isn't surprising, Look what happens to people that mate with close relatives! I think the species anyway should be outcrossed more than they are. There sure are lots of x self plants out there!

marylois
Perhaps our hybrids are becoming too 'incestuous'? I mean, one breeder using the same clones over and over...sib crosses from a different breeder with a different line would likely bring more vigor, would it not?

Tex1 Dan (Dan from Wharton, Texas)
Marilyn, we see the same regression with selfing in corn parents we use to make hybrids. Back crosing causes inbreeding regression. Most plants and animals suffer from this problem, except rats. If you ever saw a field for seed production of corn, you would think it was a disaster. The resultant hybrid is very vigorous and can withstand a wide regime of environmental rigors.

emf31
You all were talking about selective breeding: for size, color, etc. The way most wild populations of plants have been disturbed irrevocably (evolution is nullified), it seems imperative that we breed for the heartiest plants, the biggest and best - Darwin's survivors

marylois
You put it much better, Chuck! *S*

Fleur (Tasmania)
I have been very lucky, the person I get my species flasks from always made outcrossings.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Using and reusing the same clone time and time again would certainly seem to be breeding for lack of vigor particularly if use use it on its own first crosses.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
I guess the advantage to selfing is that it tends to fix some desirable traits. As a result, the offspring are more predictable. Don't breeders get more of a mixed bag when they outcross?

marilyninOttawa
My rule of thumb is that if the populations are farther apart than the bee flies they are essentially isolated. Of course, wind may blow a pollinator astray on occasion and result in mixing, but this is probably rare. Some populations seem to be more self incompatible than others and these populations are not producing very many natural seedlings. The population with greater self-compatibility has many more seedlings and is growing. Mix the two populations (in the lab only, of course) and you get vigor which might be attributed to heterosis or a mixing of gene pools.

121133ellen
Breeders are looking for commercial success which is color and size, not stamina.

Fleur (Tasmania)
Chuck, I think that's an advantage of outcrossing, vigor and variety.

marilyninOttawa
I remember way back when I tried to grow Odonts and failed miserably. Thought it was my fault but when I switched plant source, I had great results. Food for thought.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Not to mention the fact that some plants (esp. orchids) may exist as very small populations, which are isolated from other members of the same species- or even the same genus.

marilyninOttawa
I think that we have to be careful in line breeding for a particular trait. What other hidden traits have we inadvertently selected for. Susceptibility to disease? Vulnerability to a particular pest? One of the most beautiful yellow cyps in my test population is susceptible to weevil while near neighbors are not.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Aaron, any thoughts as to the relative importance of the founder effect and genetic drift as opposed to full blown natural selection in orchid evolution (in the wild)?

emf31
Line breeding in thoroughbred horses has developed weak leg bones, many dog breeds carry bad hips, and don't forget 'The Deliverance'!

Tex1 Dan (Dan from Wharton, Texas)
When we look for new germplasm, we look for the isolated species for some novel trait. By producing a hybrid we add that trait or traits to the gene pool. Some hybrid combinations are just not compatible. Some are very fruitful. What your hoping is ... the combination of genes from both parents will be better than either parent singularly.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
*srednop* No clue. I plead ignorance. If I had to guess, I'd say that they are extremely important. The proliferation of orchids, as witnessed by their versatility, adaptability, and sheer number of species, has been such that we have witnessed the products of a very 'involved' family of plants: stanhopeas that bloom downwards, coryanthes that have fluid-filled flowers, species with male/female flowers on the same inflorescence, pseudocopulation orchids, and so forth. These developments are seemingly more freakish (or, I should say, THAT they develop makes them freaks) more than being "pushed" in a direction.

emf31
Man has tampered so heavily with evolution, some scientists have said we have basically eliminated it except where insects are concerned. (and humans-we are getting bigger).

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
emf31, I would say we have redirected it, not stopped it. As for humans, since we have eliminated many of our selective pressures, directional evolution has probably slowed (my opinion).

marilyninOttawa
I think that this is where seed banks and pollen banks will eventually come in handy. As reservoirs of genetic material to later re-introduce to the breeding pool.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Evolution with humans "has" slowed; evolution is most rapid in very tiny populations. With the advent of air travel and other forms of transportation that have brought down barriers, human evolution has effectively halted. *waits for someone to call him a racist*

graphicgreg (its springtime in Florida)
Hi Folks, I've been lurking for about a half hour...now I'm ready to put my two cents worth. Isn't ther a difference between botany and horticulture? Orchids bred for horticultural purposes only need to be vigorous enough to grow and flower in cultivation...not in the wild.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Yes; there is a vast difference between botany and horticulture. But a lot of us horticulturists that favor species are purist snobs, and want the end product (after several generations) to be identical to what we removed from the wild. :-)

graphicgreg (its springtime in Florida)
OK AJ, but that is a matter of honor. Look at what the Brazilians have done to the gene pools of C. loddigesii, walkeriana, intermedia...in their attempt to create 'super clones' which I for one, don't want in MY collection...they're downright UGLY !

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Bwuh? I agree with you, Greg. Arbitrary selection (or, more properly, selection of "representative" plants) is what conserves the genome. Not selection of the most spectacular flowers.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Aaron, I'm not sure I'm ready to say it has stopped, cultural evolution has the potential to shape organic evolution.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
For intents and purposes, it's pretty damned still if it hasn't stopped. One major plague will prove that. Influenza, 1918, anyone?

Tex1 Dan (Dan from Wharton, Texas)
Greg, that's not always true! It matters not if your breeding frogs, dogs or orchids. The problem with some of the weakness stated, is do to the eye of the breeder. Remember he has a concept of what he's shooting for. It doesn't mean it won't survive in the wild. Of course some may have gone the wrong direction in relation to survival. I'm just trying to say today's breeding is not bad. They are breeding for aesthetics. Or what sells in our market. It may or may not survive in the wild!

121133ellen
Dan, I agree, look at which plants are awarded at shows and then you see what trend is going to be successful commercially.

Fleur (Tasmania)
I would have thought that travel would increase the diversity within humans.

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Fleur - is sure seems that way VBG

emf31
Aaron - I like the point about barriers coming down - lines are no longer pure, or under stress to change. It's all in which genes mix with what. There is one fact - we are getting bigger, that needs to be addressed.

graphicgreg (its springtime in Florida)
One of the things that has always fascinated me about orchids, and is the challenge for the taxonomists, is where do you draw the line between species ? Where doesC. skinneri end and C. aurantiaca begin ? Someday there may be only a C. guatemalensis. I find this fluidity of speciation exciting. For us species lovers it means that there are indeed those natural super clones waiting to be discovered.

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
But perhaps, is it not all chance in the end? Can not the best parents (orchids here) throw ugly plants, and two blah plants give the best AOS awarded thing on the block? What 'chances' enter into things??

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
Depends upon whether or not the person who crossed the two "blah" plants was an AOS judge themselves. *ducks*

[*ouch* Commenting on this in archives; those on-line already know my view on this old saw of judges awarding one another's plants. First of all, the assertion that plants often yields spectacalar offspring is often true; however, stating the award depends on AOS-judge ownership is NOT true, but is an oft-repeated charge along the same lines as "commerical growers plants are the only ones awarded". In both instances, more plants are seen, bought, nurtured, and shown than by any other segment of orchid growers. That one fact "seen, bought, nurtured, shown" increases the ratio of awards...mlg]

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
It "does" increase diversity, but you need "specifics" for organisms to evolve. If everyone has the same genetic makeup, then the population would be decimated by disease. Instead, we have variations in a percentage of a population, and THIS is what punctuates evolution: catastrophes, not day-to-day mundanities.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
emf31 - better diet and better health care is why we are getting bigger.

AJHicks (That was low, Hicks.)
Taxonomy! Discussing when one species stops, and the next species begins. yeek! Fistfights break out among taxonomists. They're a fun bunch, but only when drunk.

emf31
Genetics controls evolution - in plants, animals, whatever - if a being cannot adapt to the environmental stresses around it, it won't survive, and these adaptations come strictly from gene material. Witness the sparrows of the Galapagos Is. Their beaks get bigger or smaller during times of feast or drought.

marylois
Sure wish movie stars were bigger! *G* Kidding aside, most heros (Arnold aside) a little guys...getting big is good food and vitamins. Notice how tiny the civil war uniforms and ladies apparel are? And the rock n' roll museum doesn't have any plus sizes. It's said that when times are bad, a man is proud of a fat wife, in good times he wants a thin one. (chew on that *giggle*).

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
Something to think about, Lois. Chuck - for some of us more diet is why we are getting bigger :-)

AJHicks (That was really low, Hicks.)
And the Constitution has such low doorways.... better nutrition did so much for the industrialized nations. Heh.

marylois
Hope we don't find out the hard way, Aaron...industries are disappearing in the good ol U.S., replaced by services. Not smart.

graphicgreg (its springtime in Florida)
These plants are evolving before our very eyes. We have a plant of a pink Epi. ciliare that is going around collections here in S. Florida. Some folks suspect that it is an artificial hybrid...I know damn well what it is; an intergrade between Epi. ciliare and C. skinneri, an evoloutionary step toward a new species.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Aaron, what about coevolutionary trends between predator and prey, parasite and host? Aren't these selective pressures at work every day? I do agree though that catastrophies are very important too, depending on what they are.

AJHicks (Scraping rock bottom...)
Hey, there's nothing wrong with plucking chickens. *shades of Perot*.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
...unless you are a chicken

AJHicks (Scraping rock bottom...)
Sure, there are essentials of evolution that occur on a day to day basis, but these are general trends. When catastrophe wipes out, say, 95% of a population, THAT is when evolution happens rapidly. Not only by selection of a very narrow segment of the population, but by the developments that occur in this smaller population as a result (smaller populations = more rapid change).

AJHicks (Thermonuclear hunka hunka burnin grapeseed)
Actually, artificial breeding programs will yield results several orders of magnitude faster than the general evolutionary trend, since we KNOW what we want. Sort of. Like with goldfish: overbred carp. :-P

emf31
Our orchid society show is this weekend. Looking to put together a list of orchid sites on the web to distribute. Can anyone recommend some URLs for inclusion? I can wait until the end of the discussion...

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
Fleur, that is a lovely photo! I saw Lois's new masd plants this last weekend. I had NO idea how small they were, the pics are all bigger than they are!

marylois
Sharon means the bloom size - she expected them to be bigger flowers.

Fleur (Tasmania)
Sharon, some of the Masd flowers are less than 1/4 inch, very tiny.

ChuckMyr (Chuck in Austin, MN)
Hmm, too bad orchids aren't marine organisms, then we would have a better fossil record of their evolution.

AJHicks (Got Sand (tm)?)
I need to bug out. My book... beckons to me, with a strange, leafy voice.

marylois
AJ, writing one - or reading one? :)

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
AJ will be famous one day, he is writing one, but will he tell us what, no, he will not, but we KNOW it will be strange and interesting...

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
Good nite, AJ! Thanks!

AJHicks (Aarons gettin weird)
Hasta la pasta, kemosabe. *implodes*

marylois
Many thanks, Aaron.

marilyninOttawa
Great news, Carol. Two sources for Cyp seedlings here in Ontario/Quebec. I should soon have some Masd. tovarensis seed to trade for that of other species. Lots of fat capsules just waiting to burst on cue.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Butthead)
Any anecdotes as to how well Masdevallia seed holds up under storage, Marilyn?

marilyninOttawa
Well Aaron, I discovered that it is best to let unused mature seed air dry at room temperature before storing it in the fridge. It is important to store it at about 28% Relative Humidity and not with dessicant. A frost free fridge runs about 28% RH.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Butthead)
Do you find that desiccants will kill it?

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
I have a pod on Tuberolabium escritorii, but I don't know when to harvest it!

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
Carol, what is a Tuberolabium, I have never heard of that one.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
Sharon, It is a cute mini. Spray of white flowers with a little purple on the lip. One of the parents of Tubaceum Snow Gem.

Fleur
[sic] I have Masd babies and cannot decide to let go of any. I have this big thing about wanting them to flower before I part with them. That way I get to keep the best and give the rest away.

marilyninOttawa
Exactly my approach Fleur, except that it can take a lot of space. You could try to determine which is the most fertile of the bunch.

Fleur (Tasmania)
Space and time too. I also have 50+ macrura and they grow BIG, but the caudata are not so bad.

marilyninOttawa
Aaron, if you examine Masdevallia seeds, you will see that they are very> fragile, sometimes the embryo is almost if not completely out of the seed coat.

Fleur (Tasmania)
Marilyn, what sort of magnification are you talking here?

marilyninOttawa
Magnification Fleur? 10x eyepiece + 10x objective. The testa is perhaps 6 cells long and the embryo consists of maybe 20 cells.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
Marilyn, AJ Are you storing seed out of pod? Since most folks I know do green pod flasking, loose seed would pose a problem. But I guess you cannot store pods!

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude)
Green capsule techniques should be discouraged until someone sits down and does a study to determine whether or not viruses are passed from momma to progeny by such techniques.

marilyninOttawa
I sow from entire capsules - much less work. Sometimes I have more seed than I need or wish to share it and so, on to storage. It is not a good idea to store entire fruits!

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
AJ, I agree about the green pod technique. But doesn't sterilizing loose seed, decrease germination?

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude)
Whenever we get capsules at the Seedbank (which I discourage, as it encourages fungal and bacterial growth while en route), I take them apart with an X-acto blade on the seed cutting board, and toss the bits into a desiccator with silica gel (which is not terribly hygroscopic, but has high holding capacity), with all of it wrapped in Mead tracing paper to retain seed as the capsule dries.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
AJ, I agree about the green pod technique. But doesn't sterilizing loose seed, decrease germination?

AJHicks
You may lose some viability as a product of drying, but when you have seeds best counted in orders of magnitude in number, who cares? :-)

marilyninOttawa
Right on about virus transmission Aaron. I use only mature but entire fruits just before dehiscence.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude)
I've discussed this with Arditti, and research on the subject needs to go BOTH ways: we don't know if dried seed transmits viruses, either, but all the evidence says not. Of course, this is true of the green stuff, too. :-P

marilyninOttawa
I haven't found surface sterilization of Masdevallia seed has decreased germination, at least in the species/hybrids I have worked with. I have used 1:10 bleach solution to rid a batch of seed of contaminating Penecillum spores.

AJHicks (Orchid Seedbank Dude, Socorro, New Mexico)
*nodnod* Reports are that masdevallias will take hypochlorite solutions with ease. Expect a good section on hypochlorite techniques in my book.

marilyninOttawa
If you have your plants virus-indexed before producing seed, chances of transmission should be greatly diminished.

graphicgreg (its springtime in Florida)
Listen folks, if I might digress for a moment. The vendor list is online for the Redland International Orchid Festival. Anybody who expects to be in SoFla second week in May don't miss this one. Great opportunity to snag plants from all over the world. button http://www.orchidworks.com/redland/webad/

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
graphicgreg, great poster! Did you do it?

marylois
Good work, Greg - would like to catch THAT wave!

Fleur (Tasmania)
Me too, love that surf

Neo.falcata1 (had your orchid today)
Greg, is that Mothers Day weekend? If it is the VCOS show is the same weekend.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
graphicgreg, I enjoyed the transcript on Orchids as Foliage plants. I think my 'puter was not co-operating that nite, shucks! I could have said a lot.

marylois
Yes, Carol - it was a very good evening...the transcript and photos are on line.