OrchidSafari ARCHIVES*

1. PRE-DISCUSSION MAILOUT

2. TRANSCRIPT

PRE-DISCUSSION MAILOUT

Doing your part for conservation.

We continue to explore the various avenues to conservation open to orchid hobbyists. I recommend that chatters take the opportunity to read the Executive Summary of the Orchid Action Plan at the IUCN Site.

One of the two conservation strategies advocated is the "promotion of trade of artificially propagated plants." Just how can we accomplish this? How can we go about supporting the artificial propagation of rare or new species in those countries where the species are native?

I look forward to this Wednesday, March 11, for an interesting and thought-provoking session.
Marilyn Light

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TRANSCRIPT

by Marilyn H. S. Light
WBS, Wed 11 Mar 98

Present were 19:

marylois
Exactly - how can the show chair decide who can show and who cannot and not risk litigation?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Miami show says NO BARE ROOTS

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
You miss my point, Lois. BUYERS can stop improper plant sales. We, each of us, can refuse to buy anything we suspect has been harvested illegally. Once the buck dries up the problem will cease to exist.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
But, Ed--it's all ready too late!! Plants are ripped off the trees!

JCY8S (John in Arcadia, CA)
I agree Ed, but realistically isn't that a little too much to expect?

55SS (James in Fresno )
Should we look for broken roots and such?

ABU CALANTHE
In most countries Government officials and Academicians are invited to sit on committees to deliberate on the CITES and the Quarantine regulations which goes hand in hand.

marilyninOttawa
At the Ottawa Orchid Show, we choose which vendors to invite. Space is limited as well. Our goal is to provide healthy, established stock to those who visit the show.

marylois
Sparky, that's a darn good start! Put it in the show schedule and police that. Must be announced when show is announced though, not just fine print in the show schedule.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Sparky, I applaud Miami for taking a stand. Years before CITES, I was partner in a firm well up in the top ten per cent of orchid importers. We never bought a plant from a source other than a commercial nursery and we never sold a plant that wasn't well established in a new growing environment. AND we never had a year we didn't make money. It can be done if one is determined.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Ed, would it be prudent to NOT buy bare roots from a vendor if the plants appear in less than perfect condition (e.g., raggedy, obvious torn areas, weedy, buggy, etc.)?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
But, Marilyn, you never know where they buy plants from.

NativeOrchid (Carol, Darnestown, Maryland)
A more reasonable approach is to get propagated species in the trade. We as orchid hobbyists will naturally be drawn to a well grown plant over one that looks horrible and is bare root. I am seeing this in Angraecums. More species are in the trade now than three years ago. ...and they sell out in a heart beat!

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Paula, would you buy any other orchid plant that was weedy, buggy and had torn areas?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
I still feel that by the time they get to the selling place it's too late---they should cover the areas where they are grown?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Paula buys ANYTHING!!!!!!!

foxtail2
Question: who should or is the one to establish or say who sell 'proper' plants and who is 'Charlie'? Is there a parameter that we call adhere to?

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Ed, I have purchased plants like that, but usually from commercial growers going out of business, or private collections being sold due to lack of care. But these were all potted, of course.

marylois
Steve, we cannot control what is going on in other countries, but we can control our personal buying habits...if the market dries up, there will be no incentive to harvest the forests.

ABU CALANTHE
Nodosa, Ever since I joined Orchid Safari the chats have most of the times been focused on orchid species. Little does everyone knows that the original plant or plants imported were through the blackmarket or illegally imported into the country. If the demand is so high for species the illegal import will continue. We in the orchid community has a say in this. Make sure that species bought are sibling or selfed crosed plants. Never ask for the original species for your breeding program.

marilyninOttawa
I agree, Sparky. Most of the vendors at our show deal in seed-raised material (mostly their own) or in blooming hybrid orchids that appeal to the public. We simply do not invite or invite back, vendors who sell primarily bare root plants that appear collected. We do of course permit unpotted but carefully packaged plants from e.g. the UK or from New Zealand where the material is clearly artificially propagated and merely removed from pots to accommodate shipping, handling and phytosanitary restrictions.

marylois
oops! Yes, Marilyn - those are good plants out of pot...how to word a show schedule?

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
And Steve is right - I do buy almost anything - I'm known in these parts as an orchid wh-re...!

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Think a minute, Steve. If bare root plants cease to sell, the system dries up right back to the source - in a hurry. None of these guys have production greenhouses. They can't hold the stuff and wouldn't know how to grow it if the did. CITES hasn't cured the problem in umpteen years but lack of sales will cure it in six months.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Thank you for such a thought provoking suggestion, Ed. Although the bare root tables are sold out quickly at the Redlands Orchid Fair, I won't be buying from them.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Abu, the orchid community is the whole say in this thing. Maybe some of the CITES committees should get some professional growers on their panels. I believe I can spot a seed-raised plant vs a jungle rip-off from any distance up to 100 yards.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Ed---I have to disagree---all they have to do is lower the prices and people will buy them---bare root damaged, buggy or whatever.

marilyninOttawa
In our show schedule we state:
The Show Chairman has the option to remove any plant or exhibit that shows a lack of respect for orchids, their environment or their range state. This will include: 1) Plants taken from their natural habitat solely for exhibition purposes and without due regard for their successful cultivation after the show; and 2) Plants that can be proven to have been legally imported without due adherence to CITES import regulations and/or the laws of the country of origin.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Steve, you may be right about the lower prices, but we, as 'enlightened' growers, should spread the word via shows, orchid societies, sales, etc.

ABU CALANTHE
Contd. These CITES committes are ignorant of what the CITES is and decisions made at these committee meetings are without reference to the floriculture industry without representation from the Orchid Bodies~Associations or Societies in each country. The committees main concern is that the integrity of the country's quarantine to protect everything under agriculture is not compromised.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
When I go to the Everglades and see someone with the 'intention' I just tell them that the rangers are checking camera bags, coolers, etc---had some strange looks!!!!!!

foxtail2
Education is the key tool, however, how does one overcome personal greed of others when staying at low price?

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Lois, I think a fresh division is a whole lot different than a bare root plant. One glance should tell you which is which. By the same token, I think the division, too, should be passed by. If it is good, the vendor should respect the plant and the customer enough to establish the plant and present it properly.

marilyninOttawa
Abu, I understand what you have experienced. When we purchase plants from other countries, we must respect our own country's requirements and those of CITES. For Canada, we require an Export Permit from the country of origin in order to import plants. This is not needed for flasked material.

marylois
Hmmmm, Marilyn - I believe we would find it hard to make people adhere to that statement...or to find someone willing to make those decisions.

marilyninOttawa
When we discuss species, I believe that we are talking about species versus hybrids and not necessarily species collected from the wild. Species remain species even though they are sib-crossed.

marilyninOttawa
Abu, Are you advocating that we encourage trade in hybrids rather than species?

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
I have a plant collected from the wild---it received an AM---does that mean I'm a bad person? (the plant was collected 15 years ago)

marilyninOttawa
Good point, Ed. How do you think we could dry up the trade?

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
I've had some private messages re this: yes, everyone in the trade gets an overture from a foreign shipper to fudge on documentation. Yes, we could have thousands of plants here in 30 days despite CITES controls. Yes, people still buy cheapies regardless. OK, but we are talking personal integrity and regard for orchids, not laws or CITES or government intervention. If the public has no concern about conservation, we can do nothing. They will get the plants. I hope some of us set a different standard and encourage a different message. Remember, however, CITES is just another form of prohibition and it didn't work, either.

ABU CALANTHE
Contd. With this in mind they had in the past recommended a total ban on export of orchid specis under Appendix I and II of the CITES, which is not correct. The CITES DOES NOT PROHIBIT EXPORT OF ORCHID SPECIES IF THEY ARE COLLECTED, PROPOGATED, IMPROVED UPON, MERISTEM AND THEN EXPORTED. CITES I and II ONLY PROHIBITS THE DIRECT EXPORT OF JUNGLE COLLECTED PLANTS OF WILD ORIGIN.

marylois
Bravo, Ed! Well said. Again, the place to start is always with oneself!

marilyninOttawa
This coming March 17, I as Canadian Orchid Congress Conservation Chair (representing hobbyists and member orchid societies, have been invited to address CITES related regulations being suggested for our country. I asked to be heard some time ago and they listened. We have to speak up.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
I think that circumstances should affect one's decision to purchase a wild collected plant... for example, I collected a clump of Enc. tampensis from a tree that was destined to be torn down for development. Do I regret it? No... that plant is now safe in my collection, naturalized on a tree on my property. I will never sell it. And, I drove by the spot where I collected it a few years ago, and it now is completely cleared of ALL trees.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
ABU---and if they plaque them and grow them for six months = then the export them and all's OK????

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Marilyn, I think we can substantially reduce illegal trade by informing the orchid public about what is legal or illegal. CITES simply took the position of saying everything is illegal, so people have ignored it and the public pressure on commercials is enormous.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Paula---I'm tellin' on you!!!!!! Park rangers at your door in the morning!!!!!

marilyninOttawa
I believe that some good progress is being made through the auspices of the Plant Committee - Orchids IUCN. They have been successful in having flasks delisted. Moves are afoot to have supermarket plants (hybrid phalaenopsis, etc) de-regulated much as has recently been done for potted Cyclamen, grafted cacti and Christmas Cacti. There is progress but I admit that it is slow.

marilyninOttawa
We initially wanted to discourage cyps being lifted and forced for spring shows. Now that seed-raised material is coming to be available this may not be as much of a concern. I agree that it is difficult to make a stand but we are all in this together.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Compare the taking of orchids to taking rocks from National parks----will it ever end---NO---only when ALL the rocks are gone!!

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Marilyn, I'd like to see felled trees harvested under controlled conditions. Slash and burn is being done because people are hungry and that is a hard thing to control, but we could permit harvesters who would then be required to grow the material six months or so before resale. Yes, experienced people can tell whether plants are established, and the guy who sells the plant better have a permit showing where and when it was collected. This should apply to many CITES plants, not just orchids.

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
Sparky, I agree, but I think Ed has the right idea...

marilyninOttawa
All orchids in cultivation other than hybrids, arose from wild-collected stock. We are more concerned with recent collection of native material.

nodosa (Ed in SAT)
Marilyn, you're saying then that anything discovered after say 1990 cannot enter commercial channels and cannot be legally sold?

ABU CALANTHE
Contd. From our research experience we found out that the only way the Govt of any country controls the export of prohibited plants is through legislation in the the Customs Act. The Customs are not plant friendly in relation to enforcement of the Law on prohibition of exports including orchids. this is where the present PROBLEM LIES. If you try to export species even meristem species you will if caught by the Customs will be classified as a Smuggler and the shipment destroyed. there is no argument in the interpretation of this Customs Regulations. It is already out of the hands of the Wildlife Department or the Quarantine Dept. the Customs Dept and its officers on duty which is ten times out of ten does not know what CITES IS NOR DOES HE CARE EXCEPT THE ORCHID PLANTS YOU ARE EXPORTING ARE PROHIBITED ITEMS.

marilyninOttawa
The public, at least the average visitor at our show, wants inexpensive, showy or perhaps odd-looking plants. They are not really interested in botanicals although they will buy cheap ones if presented with them. The money is to be made on flowering orchids whether they be Phals, Cymbids, Cattleyas or nobile-type Dendrobiums. It is the hobbyist that can be interested in the rare or unusual, the botanical. I know. I am one of those hobbyists who likes something different. The market is relatively small in the overall show context.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Abu---and AGAIN I SAY---MORE PLANTS ARE REMOVED!!!!

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
Marilyn, is it the hobbyist or the serious collector who is going to pay a smuggler or risk the customs man?

ABU CALANTHE
No, Steve, even after 6 months it is still a plant of wild origin as classified under CITES. THEY CAN ONLY BE EXPORTED IF THEY ARE COLLECTED AND MERISTEMED.

marilyninOttawa
Since one of the objectives of CITES is to monitor trade, permits are required for all orchid plants traded. Artificially propagated plants are certainly not banned from trade but some countries do ban all or most trade. The reasons remain obscure.

nodosa
Marilyn, most custom inspectors look only as far as the word orchid on the way bill. When that is seen, the shipment is suspect and if species orchids are identified, the shipment is illegal. Tough sledding for the honest shipper.

marilyninOttawa
Each of us must make decisions that reflect our own moral code. I understand where you are coming from Paula. One of my first orchids was a Schomburgkia sp. which I removed from its tree support shortly before the whole property was bulldozed. It was merely moved from danger to a tree down the street. I had no moral dilemma with this.

marilyninOttawa
How many of us have CITES or Orchid Conservation exhibits at our shows? We should make this a priority especially seeing that the next WOC in 1999 (Vancouver) has conservation as its theme.

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
Marilyn, can lobbying be done to get things 'changed' to reflect the 'saving' of plants here and abroad. I realize common sense and government do not co-exist, but...

marilyninOttawa
Good suggestion, Ed.

ABU CALANTHE
Marilyn, the reason is not obscure. It is the inclusion of the recommendations of Govt Officials to the Quarantine Committee of each country that is misleading. The Customs Dept merely enforces the act. The CITES is not wrong and their findings correct. It is at the stage of implementation that something had gone wrong.

nodosa
Marilyn, I hear you on CITES exhibits at shows and magazine article and all that good news. Still, the bottom line is CITES is not saving our native orchids from extinction. Leave them in situ is not a viable policy when in situ is being restructured. Orchids do not adapt in one growing season. Letting them die in a bonfire is NOT better than many alternatives, some of them commercial.

ABU CALANTHE
Ruckster, THE ORCHID COMMUNITY NEEDS A VOICE THAT CAN BE HEARD THE WORLD OVER TO TACKLE THIS ISSUE.

marilyninOttawa
Abu. Are referring particularly to exports from Malaysia?

nodosa
Marilyn, I don't want to belabor the point, but we must set a goal of saving orchids - not enforcing CITES. We're paying homage to the paper gods, not to the plants. An orchid in a jar of alcohol is just as dead as an orchid in a bonfire to me.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
An open question: In 1000 years where will there be a place for native orchids is situ be??????

ABU CALANTHE
Marilyn, I am not referring to exports from Malaysia only but also from other third world countries including Europe and even Holland where the Customs officer accused me of trying to smuggle orchids into Holland when I was taking my award plants from Orchidee 98 in Geneva home on transit through Amsterdam. Switzerland does not issue CITES permits or certifications.

nodosa
Sparky, re the millennium: check our greenhouse, we'll still be there with our grand little bunch. I remember the last millennium.........

ABU CALANTHE
Not much left, Steve, if we do not do something now.

marilyninOttawa
Sharon. I believe that most people want to be honest. They visit a show say in Florida. They know they need a permit to get the plant back into Canada but there is no permit issuing person at the show. They take a chance and maybe the plant pays the price by being confiscated and destroyed. We are trying to encourage streamlining of documentation so that hobbyists do not have to break laws and plants are not confiscated. certainly there will be a few individuals, and I believe it is a small minority, that have the money and wish the status that goes with an unique specimen. It is they who will smuggle or cause to be smuggled, what they earnestly desire. Again the plants pay the price if they are confiscated and destroyed. They also could pay the price if they are wild-collected and the grower does not know how to take care of them. The plant dies, they get another one.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Like I said, Ed----in due time---it's inevitable!!!!!!

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Ed, perhaps wild orchids collected from slash and burn areas can be sent to the newer zoos around the world and 'naturalized' in trees there for everyone to see and appreciate, just as the newer zoos display animals in 'natural' roaming exhibits today. Zoos have definitely undergone 'enlightenment' for the benefit of the animals there, so why can't orchids destined for destruction find sanctuary in zoos and botanical parks also?

ABU CALANTHE
Marilyn, The Cites and quarantine may be exceptional in Canada and USA. but they are not in the rest of the world.

nodosa
Marilyn, there are alternatives to the destruction of confiscated plants. When we managed the orchid collection at the San Antonio Botanical Garden, we helped to set up a rescue program where confiscated orchid plants were sent to us for the collection. The plants remained in bond, as it were, but could be conserved and displayed to the public.

marilyninOttawa
I agree that customs agents can be difficult. Perhaps it is because they are trained to be suspicious. I have never had major problems travelling with plants between countries although I strive to always have the correct documentation. Even then, the inspectors look for other illicit material. That is the way of our system. All we can do is be as correctly and completely documented as possible before transiting plants.

nodosa
Paula, the San Antonio Zoo has an impressive collection of naturalized orchid plants. We were not involved in that project, but it is an excellent one.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Ed and Paula---that's a good idea, but if there was a way to stop the poaching.....

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Well, Steve, just as banning the sale of ivory has greatly reduced elephant poaching, banning the import of wild-collected orchids could reduce the demand for them too.

nodosa
Marilyn, the customs people are not without their moment. Years ago, I carried a Laelia autumnalis in full bloom through airport customs and showed the agent a letter I had received - but not read - from an alleged friend at the University of Mexico. He had assured me that the customs man would pass me through on the strength of my academic credentials. They did, too, but the agent in parting felt constrained to say, 'By the way, that letter is in Spanish and advises the reader that under no circumstances should money be loaned to the bearer.'

marilyninOttawa
Abu. I believe that each of us should do what lobbying we can within our own countries. Regulations are an individual country's concern. Lobbying for change at the international CITES level can be done and is best passed through the IUCN orchid committee. They meet regularly to discuss proposals such as downlisting from Appendix I to II as in the case of Cattleya skinneri, or in the case of flasks not requiring CITES export permits.

ABU CALANTHE
Steve, slow down the demand for orchid species and the poaching and smuggling will also slow down. If its not lucrative enough, it will eventually stop. WE THE ORCHID COMMUITY HAS THE FINAL SAY IN THIS MATTER. THE GROWERS WILL NOT GROW IF THE ORCHID COMMUNITY DOES NOT BUY. HYBRIDS ARE ALWAYS BETTER THAN SPECIES.

marilyninOttawa
Ed. If you look back at transcripts of earlier conservation discussions (August and on) you will see what has been proposed.

nodosa
Abu, I agree on customer responsibility but there is absolutely no reason to keep species orchids out of the hands of collectors. Collectors don't buy them to kill them. The only hope many species have is to be taken into cultivation and nurtured there against the storm that is howling in situ.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
The time will come and you will see guards armed to watch the last remaining specimen in the wild, just like rhinos.

marilyninOttawa
Ed. We must live with CITES and other internal laws. If we are to practice conservation, i.e., making wise use of the orchid resource, locally and worldwide, then we need a comprehensive approach. I think that this has been well set out in the Plant Action Plan - Orchids. I posted the URL in the pre-chat material.

Ruckster1 (Sharon from Tejas)
Ed, have you ever thought of running for govt office? We need more minds like yours...

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Good suggestion, Sharon... I'd vote for Ed!!!

nodosa
Marilyn, I hope you are right. I just wish the Plant Action Plan didn't sound so like its initials!

nodosa
Sharon and Paula: you are very kind, but I fear if is perhaps thirty years too late for me to live up to the Clinton standard of public service.

marilyninOttawa
Abu. We may be developing a model here in Canada (maybe this is also happening elsewhere) whereby show plants will be issued a sort of passport. We asked for this type of device a few years back and now it is close to fruition. The key would be to have this internationally recognized. recognition between two countries is possible but it gets more complicated beween many countries as I am sure you understand. Still, it is a start. I will report back on this after our meeting next week.

ABU CALANTHE
Marylin, What I meant is exactly that. If the orchid community in each country will do what ever is necessary in their respective country and join hands with the rest of the world then we have a voice that is loud enough to be heard. Being isolated in your own country and not knowing what is happening in other parts of the world is also not good enough. The IUCN Orchis specialist group is still groping. The issue that they had brought up at the Lecture Program in Geneva is 'WHAT IS NEXT AFTER THE IUCN' Where do we go from here? Moderated by Eric Hagsater, Vinciane Dumont and Philip Cribb.

nodosa
What was the input of the commercial orchid community to these deliberations. Surely we have not always been the greedy enemy.

marilyninOttawa
Ed. This is another issue that we are about to address next week. Botanical gardens are overflowing and until these new proposals, were required to keep the plants given to them for safe-keeping without any opportunity for recompense or any right to propagate and sell to support what they had been given. I believe that this is about to change. We strongly feel that confiscated material must not be destroyed. It can be returned to the sender or it could be placed in a 'home'. This could be a public or private facility based more upon the plant requirements than on favoritism. After a period of say 3-6 months, the ownership would be transferred and the plants could be propagated, meristemmed or whatever is appropriate to ensure their multiplication and improve upon their survival.

nodosa
Well, folks, I believe I'll stroll out and look at some of the plants we rescued from Agent Orange or maybe the ones we got out of Burma before the revolution. CITES might do a lot more for conservation if they quit using so many trees for paper to write up their proceedings. Please try to keep a native orchid or two alive until common sense gets a turn. Good night, all, and thank you for a pleasant chat.

marilyninOttawa
Abu. How do you suggest that species are conserved? It is wise to maintain a gene pool. How should we approach this?

ABU CALANTHE
Nodosa, It is sad that the orchid growers in the USA are not united under one Association. The commercial growers would have a strong voice to approach Congress as the issues here affect a USD260 million industry in USA. We have such an association here in Malaysia and we have been able to convince our government to make the necessary changes which will be implemented this year (1988).

marilyninOttawa
Are you asking me, Ed? If so, our commercial orchid community is not large here in Canada.

ABU CALANTHE
Marilyn, my proposal is inside the six pages of extracts to Lois. We do not believe that leaving the orchids in their natural habitats will help totally. Habitats of species within a permanetn forest reserve gazatted by the govt is quite safe. But orchids in habitats within reach of development should be collected and replanted in suitable agricultural parks, botanical gardens, and lowland forest reserves. The most imprtant is that the growers be allowed to collec these species, imporve on the, propagate though hybridization or meristem them for sale to the local and would orchid community. In this way, the orchid species will never become extinct.

paulav (Paula in Boca Raton, Florida)
Abu, I agree completely. But who will monitor the collecting?

marilyninOttawa
Abu. I believe I understand what you propose. Epiphytes are generally more amenable to re-establishment than terrestrials which are the major concern of Europe, much of North America, etc. The conservation approach is therefore somewhat different.

ABU CALANTHE
Marilyn, what we have done here is to take CITES Appendix I and II out of the customs prohibition order and leave it on its own two feet under the quarantine regulations act. In this way, the customs dept no longer has jursidiction over the orchid plants under CITES I and II, only the quarantine and wildlife dept to regulate the issuance of the CITES certificate and the phytosanitary certificates. There will be freedom of trade and export of orchid species which has been manipulated by humans in accordance with CITES requirements. I will provide you with the details when the new regulations have been gazatted.

marilyninOttawa
Thank you everyone for a most interesting discussion. Lots of good ideas to mull over and hopefully integrate in local initiatives. Hope that everyone will try to have a conservation-oriented exhibit at their show. Good night.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Marilyn - a super round of applause for you!!!!

marilyninOttawa
Thank you, Steve!

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
Abu, see you on Saturday? Open chat night

ABU CALANTHE
Yes, Steve.

sparkysteve (of Boca Raton Florida)
See ya then! I'll turn the lights out *click*

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