Subject: Gender consciousness
Ok....
A request for some introspection to get things going...
(I'm not assuming that people's consciousness of what they do
acurately reflects what they do, but it is interesting)
Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the
list?
If so what intensifies or diminishes this consciousness?
Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write
to the list?
If so what intensifies, or diminsishes this consciousness
How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in
the other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels,
ICQ etc. that you frequent?
************************
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:21:38 -0500
From: Alan Sondheim
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 jmarshal@ol.com.au wrote:
> Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the list?
> If so what intensifies or diminishes this consciousness?
>
I can only answer this in relation to Drew Leder's The Absent Body coupled
with Merleau Ponty's writing somewhere about the speech stream. In point
of fact, I am not conscious of "identity" per se when I am writing; I am
conscious of the stream of words and their speaking as text; I type very
quickly, so there doesn't appear to be any mediation; of course that's
untrue, as I'll immediately correct any spelling or punctuation errors I
see.
But I doubt there are very many people who, in real life, and this is real
life as well, are conscious of their identity-as (gender, religion, age,
etc.) in general. One might chose _to write out of such an identity,_ for
example to _write-as-a-male_ - and others might find, say my writing as
_male-writing,_ but one tends to write, to walk, to do any number of
things, simply as being-there, often focused on speaking, listening, writ-
ing, reading, all together. And Leder's right I think in this respect; our
bodies might form a background, but it is backgrounded, distanced.
Finally and it's just a quick note to something else, it may well be anom-
aly that then foregrounds one or another characteristic; I might find my-
self arguing with someone, for example, and it might seem like an old pat-
tern, and I'll think, I'm writing too much as a male here.
> Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write to
> the list?
> If so what intensifies, or diminsishes this consciousness
This is anomalous in another way: Which others? If I'm writing in response
to a question, as I am now, I'm aware I'm writing in response to "Jon."
But I don't feel I'm writing to "male-Jon" or "Christian-Jon" etc.; that
would only come to the foreground if you presented yourself as such, if
there were a hinge to your identity which would be part of the reading I
would make of your post.
>
> How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in
> the other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels,
> ICQ etc. that you frequent?
On one hand, this list is much more informal than a lot of the other
mailing lists I'm on, and more formal than, say, IRC. And since I'm not
involved in any seduction routines, that is, I'm not writing with the
intent of presenting myself as available (for sex, for relationship,
etc.), the factors are somewhat equivalent. On the other hand, there are
certain lists, such as Nettime or 7-11, where, even with the presence and
(perhaps on 7-11) dominance of females, the list itself "feels male," by
which I mean it retains a sense of argumentation and head-butting that I
feel all too familiar with and associate, in myself, with being-male.
Alan
************************
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:13:59 -0600
From: Elizabeth Barrette
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
On 19 Jan 01, at 16:10, Jon Marshall wrote:
> Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the
> list?
Sometimes. I have a very fluid identity ... or perhaps you might
say faceted. There are male and female and other aspects of me,
not just parts of my personality but whole personae. These are
responsive to the environment. Often cyberspace does not trigger
engenderment in my thought processes, so you are often speaking
to a neutral-me or composite-me. However...
> If so what intensifies or diminishes this
> consciousness?
A particular thread of conversation may highlight aspects of
gendered interaction, so that I view it through a more masculine or
feminine or other lens. Talking about women's mysteries, I tune in
to feminine energy. Talking about confrontations, I tend to get
more masculine. Talking about gender itself (!) almost invariably
puts me in "other" mode, the part of me that understands gender
as a construct and likes to play with it. Talking about abstract
concepts tends to disengender my thoughts.
> Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write to
> the list?
Sometimes. I have some longtime friends whose gender I don't
happen to know. If it doesn't come up, I don't care about it. If I
spot telltale pronouns or other references, that's cool, but it's not
something I go out of my way to hunt for. I am perfectly
comfortable dealing with people in a disengendered way. Other
times I become suddenly very aware that a person's gender
experiences are *seriously* coloring their attitudes.
> If so what intensifies, or diminsishes this
> consciousness
Usually the other person's behavior. It's their choice. I have a
policy of allowing people to define their own gender. If they say
they're male, then to me they're male -- I don't particularly care if
they're wearing tits on the other side of the screen. If someone
describes jiself as a jiman, well, I'll almost certainly ask what the
heck that is because I love studying this stuff -- but it won't weird
me out or cause me to avoid the person.
> How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in the
> other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels, ICQ etc.
> that you frequent?
It varies. Most lists, newsgroups, and other venues are pretty
similar in terms of gender communication. Exceptions include
single-gender space like lists for discussing women's mysteries,
MOOs and other settings where people post in character, and IRC
channels and similar venues where dating is the topic. Then
people pay more attention to announcing, creating, and maintaining
their gender identity online. When it's not relevant, you might be
surprised how often people just forget to mention it.
Blessings,
Elizabeth
************************
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:49:54 -0500
From: Dominic Fox
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
>Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the
>list?
Not as an explicit theme of conscious reflection, or at least not normally.
However, I am conscious of other people's apparent genders. If the person
typing under Elizabeth's name turned out to be a man, for instance, I'd be
extremely surprised (less surprised than I'd be if s/he turned out to be
one of Ursula le Guin's gender-shifting aliens - see _The Left Hand of
Darkness_). So I'm socially conscious of gender in relation to others:
less "I'm a man" than "you're a woman and I relate to you *this* way".
> If so what intensifies or diminishes this consciousness?
Display of marked generic traits, anything that makes me conscious of
others' gender.
>Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write
>to the list?
I probably take it more for granted than I should; then again, within the
fictive context of the list you kind of are who you say you are (although
the fictive context overlaps with other contexts: compare a boy actor
playing a female character in male drag in a Shakespeare play).
Nikuko's a girl, right?
> If so what intensifies, or diminsishes this consciousness
>
>How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in
>the other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels,
>ICQ etc. that you frequent?
I'd like to say, less important ("and this is one of the things that makes
CM such a great place!"), but it isn't noticeably. There's a particular
range or spectrum of apparent genders here; not overly polarised (and this
is one of the things that makes CM such a great place!), not inclusive of
every conceivable variety either (where are the posturing macho men?). I
don't know how I'd begin to characterise the gender colouring of an on-line
forum; and maybe whatever I said would really be code for something else
anyway, e.g. how polite people were. Or how bonkers.
Dom
************************
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:47:04 +0000
From: Gothwalker
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:10:07PM +0000, Jon Marshall typed like the wind:
> Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the
> list?
*This* list, no.
When I write to tamson-house, I'm aware that 70% of that list
is nominally female, and that I may be misunderstanding.
However, neither is as.. neutral as the stance
I'd mentally take when writing to an unknown list,
or to usenet (which I haven't done in years...).
> If so what intensifies or diminishes this consciousness?
Subject matter. Writing this, I'm conscious of maleness,
along with the fact that I haven't had enough coffee yet,
and that the Solaris box on my desk wants attention.
Other times, I forget it - as much as I can forget it.
If we take the gender identity line as something like the Kinsey line,
I'm ninety-something at the male end.
> Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write
> to the list?
Yes. Almost always, but I'm aware of what they say they are,
not what hormones / organs / birth cert say.
I'm remarkably successful at ignoring these,
and going with what they say they are.
> If so what intensifies, or diminsishes this consciousness
Subject matter again. If we're talking about group houses,
I'll be less aware of it, if we're talking about linux,
I'll be almost unaware of it.
> How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in
> the other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels,
> ICQ etc. that you frequent?
Comfortable here. I feel, by and large,
that nobody's going to swat me for being overly masculine. [1]
This isn't always the case in, say, pagan fora,
where a lot of people are female and militant-feminist.
(Or perhaps they're louder...)
Gaming lists tend to be geek-gendered, rather than male or female,
and there are some folk there that I have never assigned gender to.
Drew.
[1] I am man, watch me scratch.
--
http://gothwalk.starflung.com/ [ gothwalk @ starflung.com ]
"I've never actually been horribly mutated." -- Oli
************************
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:42:32 -0800
From: catcher at times?=
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
--- Jon Marshall
> Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the
list?
That depends on my general state of gender consciousness.
> If so what intensifies or diminishes this consciousness?
Being adressed as F/M/O (female/male/other).
Someone stressing their own F/M/O state.
A F/M/O topic being discussed.
> Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write
to the list?
Sometimes. When my hormones are getting the better of me I tend to
think in gender. Also when people really, really annoy me, I hear
myself thinking things like "He's a patronizing pig ... she's a
stupid bitch", which seems to be gender-oriented.
> If so what intensifies, or diminishes this consciousness
My curiosity.
> How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in
the other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels, ICQ
etc. that you frequent?
On CM I'm generally not conscious of my gender, and I like that. My
brain seems to work better when I'm genderfree. Sometimes I get
backchannels which evolve into cybererotic communications, but that
doesn't change my "ungenderly" feeling onlist.
My own list is dominantly female, and I see myself behaving mostly
female there.
I stopped ICQ'ing because most people I met there seemed to to be
interested in M/F/O only.
And then there's been lists that would only function if one was
willing to discuss one's gender - I remember a psychology list
intended to help people with incest (and related) problems. At a
certain point one of the female members said she was actually male
and that almost blew up the list.
renata, very conscious of her gender right now (if only I knew which
one it is) ,-)
=====
Do I contradict myself?
Very well, then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
************************
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:24:50 +0000
From: Jon Marshall
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
The fact I ask questions doesn't mean i have to be articulate
answering them.
On 19 Jan 01, at 16:10, Jon Marshall wrote:
> Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the
> list?
Not really, I'm generally not that aware of my gender in general -
but this might be because I'm defined as male, and its relatively
easy to ignore prohibitions - except the emotional ones - and I
avoid the danger (combat-type) ones. However i'm sure there is all
kinds of subliminal stuff going on (particularly offline)
> If so what intensifies or diminishes this
> consciousness?
Like almost everyone, i'm going to say it depends on
circumstances - what the topic is (this one for example) - I'm more
aware of the gender of others than of my own. (Shamefacedly) I'm
possibly more likely to be easily aggresive towards males in
argument, more likely to be 'open' to women (most of my long term
correspondences, or contacts are with women, but in some ways
this is true off list as well), more likely to be sympathetic to
women, for a longer time.
> Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write to
> the list?
Not always, but the awareness is always there. If I don't know a
gender then it doesn't bother me.
> If so what intensifies, or diminsishes this
> consciousness
Levels of emotional response - though i'm not quite clear what i
mean by this.
> How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in the
> other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels, ICQ etc.
> that you frequent?
Gender was perhaps more of an issue where it is hidden - so more
of a concern on-moo - though again usually only in circumstances
of say openess, emotional intensity.....
Then again I've never been surprised on discovering someone's
gender - and I don't think this is because of 'my keen perception' or
anything - but perhaps because of suspension of judgement, or
waryiness or something. Or simply ignorance.
I avoid circumstances which are formally male only, for some
reason.
jon
************************
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:57:14 -0800
From: Caitlin Martin
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Jon Marshall murmured:
> Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the
> list?
This is an odd (to me) question since it assumes it is possible to
interface with the world in some sort of gender-neutral fashion & I'm not
sure I believe that's possible. I may, for instance, choose to write
using a gender-neutral moniker & the world may perceive me as it like, but
my body's gender doesn't change. I'm a grrl whether I tell you I am or
not. My world is colored by my eyes which view it through a specific set
of lenses, one of which is that of a nearing 40 female person.
> If so what intensifies or diminishes this consciousness?
>
I think the only time on this list I've felt that awareness intensified
was during a rather ugly debate on rape. I happened to be the only person
writing in the debate who'd ever experienced a rape firsthand & it was a
little lonely. I suspect, however, that this intensification had less to
do w/highlighting my gender & more to do w/highlighting the difference in
my life experience.
> Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write
> to the list?
>
Not much. I look at the name & somewhere in my head I say, "hmm, Mike,
probably a guy," but for the most part it doesn't register much.
> If so what intensifies, or diminsishes this consciousness
>
Nothing that I can think of off the top of my head.
> How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in
> the other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels,
> ICQ etc. that you frequent?
>
Gender on MOOs, MUDs, & MMORPGs is a little different (although pretty
much the same across all 3). Gender benders in the gaming community tend
to be guys playing girls & they're typically fairly easy to pick
out. They don't "feel" right. I was reminded of this last night while
playing Asheron's Call with a male friend w/a male avatar. He introduced
me to another friend of his w/a female avatar & w/in 5 minutes or so I
asked the "female" player if s/he was gender bending. S/he said that yes,
she was really a guy playing a female character & I wasn't
surprised. S/he didn't feel right. Hmmm.
c.
--
-----------------------------------
Caitlin Martin
caitlin@well.com
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside a dog, it's too dark to read.
************************
Date: : Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:18:59 +0000
From: : Jon Marshall
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
On 18 Jan 01, at 21:21, Alan Sondheim wrote:
> But I don't feel I'm writing to "male-Jon" or "Christian-Jon" etc.;
hmm, no-one has ever called me Chrisitian before :)
jon
************************
Date sent: : Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:41:41 +1100
From: : Esther Milne
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
Isn't that funny? When i first read this from Alan,
I thought 'hmm, i didn't know that about Jon' and it
(very slightly!) changed the way i was thinking about
Jon's 'identity'. And now i've got no idea what the
'facts' are viz religiosity!
But I guess that's a whole other book!
e.
Speaking of identity
>On 18 Jan 01, at 21:21, Alan Sondheim wrote:
>
>> But I don't feel I'm writing to "male-Jon" or "Christian-Jon" etc.;
At 16:18 23/01/01 +0000, you wrote:
>hmm, no-one has ever called me Chrisitian before :)
************************
Date sent: : Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:07:24 -0500
From: : Alan Sondheim
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Esther Milne wrote:
> Isn't that funny? When i first read this from Alan,
> I thought 'hmm, i didn't know that about Jon' and it
> (very slightly!) changed the way i was thinking about
> Jon's 'identity'. And now i've got no idea what the
> 'facts' are viz religiosity!
>
> But I guess that's a whole other book!
>
Or perhaps it's the same book, which is part of the point...
There's also a philosophical question, the relationship of meaning to
attributive-meaning (i.e. what is the meaning of "oui" in French? as
opposed to whether life has a Meaning - related to Being/beings re:
Heidegger etc.) - Alan
************************
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:14:03 -0600
From: "Christopher M. Massey"
Subject: Re: Gender consciousness
Dear all,
Hello. I only recently joined this mailing list, and am still catching up
on the various topoi indigenous to your bit-per population. I find this
discussion of online gender interesting. Is there a specific background
resource I should read? Now, on to my $.02...please excuse me if my
ignorance shouts out like it has Tourette Syndrome.
"Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the list? If
so what intensifies or diminishes this consciousness?"
Ordinarily, no. The body is absent in the online world, at least as much as
it can be. True, the biological realities of my sex often inform the way I
act and interact with others, but to suggest that I can't get beyond simple
biology to construct my own identity courts essentialist notions of what
gender is or is not. And gender is a social construct which has come to
enforce an unnatural dualism. Why is it that, for example, male archetypes
of the Restoration period consisted of the fop, the rake and the cuckold,
among others? Was it somehow related to the continuum between masculinity
and femininity? Not really. The rake...the highly masculine and sexual
hero of the time...often had some decidedly feminine qualities, while the
cuckold could be extremely tough and manly, but was ridiculed far greater
than even the fop (who might as well have been wearing a dress!). A cuckold
was in the power of his wife, who could do what she wanted with other men
and still keep the cuckolded husband on a short leash. Gender is, quite
simply, a set of assumptions which determine power relationships. Yet, in
the online world, I don't feel in anyone's power. The body people see is
completely within my power to create. And even with those out there
attempting to force my actual gender identity out of the closet, so to
speak, with Columbo-esque tenacity (Uh, there's just one more thing that's
been bugging me, Ms. Massey. What panty hose size do you wear?)--it's just
a matter of research. Of preparing for the part. And while some clues
might inevitably slip, it certainly is a lot easier than trying to convince
people in the offline world.
"Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write to the
list? If so what intensifies, or diminishes this consciousness?"
Only the professed gender-identity. I accept the person's expressed gender
without the need to dig beyond. I have dealt with enough people in the real
world who don't fit into the two-gender system--subtle inconstancies can
often indicate mere differences in life experience and personality, not that
the person is lying.
"How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in the
other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels, ICQ etc. that you
frequent?"
Pretty much the same in every instance of the online world...though in
role-playing environments, I do often arch an eyebrow at the beautiful,
bisexual woman who wants to have cybersex. Cybersex has never been my
thing, regardless, but I have no problem with it as a concept--if a 400
pound closeted gay male truck driver from Nebraska wants to take on such a
character, who is really hurt? Both he and the other guy that thinks he's a
woman are creating their own imagined picture. Things like reality don't
enter in--would it matter if the 400 pound truck driver were in actuality a
bisexual woman?
To those in the online world, the body _is_ absent. It is the perception of
body that matters.
Christopher
************************
[[There was a large delay before any further response, in which people largely discussed the relevance of gender issue. Then it began again.]]
************************
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:00:06 -0800
From: catcher at times
Subject: gender consciousness
I've been observing myself, rereading old posts etc ... funny
conclusion: I'm seldomly conscious of anyone's gender online
(including my own). The only mails I found that expressed interest
in gender were the cybersex oriented ones. The rest (most) of the
time I communicate without giving anyone's gender any thought.
My online attitude reflects my RL, I guess. I'm not really
interested in gender in a practical sense, I notice it like I notice
their hair colour or the way they dress.
Does this make everything I said on the subject untrue? No, gender
seems to interest me a lot, theoretically, both online and off.
Just read an article on the concept of beauty in the media, and how
people (mostly women it seems) feel they're expected to live up to
it. Reminded me of some time ago, here on CM, we've been talking
about looks and someone wrote he imagined me as being a petite
blonde with big boobs.
Online we don't have to live up to an image of beauty, but to which
other images do we feel we have to live up to?
renata, just thinking
************************
From: David Streever
Subject: Re: gender consciousness
I think I'm largely the same way. Race, gender, body, etc are just things
that are there. They help me determine whom I'm sexually attracted to, but
I guess a lot of that stuff doesn't matter on the net, unless you plan to
carry the cybersex into real life. I wouldn't sleep with an african
american woman (no prejudice, we just belong to different cultures, and I
genuinely can not appreciate the african american body form, though I see
african americans as being equal and worthy) but I don't think I'd care to
much if it came to cybersex.
>I've been observing myself, rereading old posts etc ... funny
>conclusion: I'm seldomly conscious of anyone's gender online
>(including my own). The only mails I found that expressed interest
>in gender were the cybersex oriented ones. The rest (most) of the
>time I communicate without giving anyone's gender any thought.
I have to agree with you on that too. I do not differentiate between
genders on line, or in real life, yet I also am theoretically interested in
gender as well. Strangely, a part of me is determined to ignore that their
may or may not be real, immediate ways in which males and females are
different (besides genitalia and chromosomes) yet a part of me believes
that their are fundamental differences in the way men and women think.
Actually, writing that last sentence, I came to a discovery. OF COURSE
there are these differences. I don't expect a muslim to think like I do,
why should I expect women to? Hell, I don't expect caucasian males (the
group I belong to) to think like I do, and yet I expect that (in general)
women will? Hmmm. Interesting. I think in a way men and women are different
culture groups, and while essentially the same, share fundamental mental
differences.
>Does this make everything I said on the subject untrue? No, gender
>seems to interest me a lot, theoretically, both online and off.
Attention! It's critical we receive attention. I don't know if any of you
notice 7-11, but there's a lot of attention seeking behaviour going on
there recently.
>Online we don't have to live up to an image of beauty, but to which
>other images do we feel we have to live up to?
>
>renata, just thinking
******************
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:54:10 -0800
From: catcher at times
Subject: Re: gender
--- Caitlin Martin
(about influence of gender)
> Please do! I'll share, too.
You asked for it:
1) For some reason I hadn't been menstruating for the last 4 months
- last weekend my body decided to give it a go again. I don't mind
the physical discomfort so much, but I hate it that my emotions are
totally mixed up. When people aren't extremely nice, I start to cry
- I can't think logically - I forget stuff - I feel disgustingly
primitive: all I want to do is lay in bed and carress my tummy. I
hate what hormones do to my brain.
2) In Flemish the only good curses are the ones that refer to male
sexual organs - I've tried to use the feminine ones, but nobody
understands me so they're not impressed.
3) I hate it that (both on- and offline) people think I should be
hurrying to find a partner because "if older women stay alone too
long they risk not finding anyone anymore".
4) Often when I'm just being nice to men backchannel, they assume
I'm desperate for cybersex.
5) I think most women are bad drivers - and I don't like myself for
thinking that.
6) Sometimes I think I'd be happier if I gave in to the "female
image" the media present me (don't like myself for that either).
renata
******************
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:38:19 +1100
From: Esther Milne
Subject: Re: Gender's consiousness - survey
A bit late i know - sorry. But maybe some others who have
not yet done the survey will be reminded too.
And well done on the website Jon - the 97 gender
discussion is v interesting.
At 11:50 30/01/01 +0000, Jon wrote:
>ok here it is again:
>
>Are you conscious of your gender identity when you write to the
>list?
Yes. Perhaps not more so than at other times but definitely not
less. I don't know what it means not to be conscious of my
gender identity. Those two words are VERY mixed up together
for me.
> If so what intensifies or diminishes this consciousness?
Discussions like these. Men who insist that gender doesn't matter.
>Are you conscious of the gender identity of others when you write
>to the list?
I am conscious of being curious about gender identity. But not
always. Sometimes i make mistakes about the gender of CM members
and that is always quite revealing (albeit in a slightly shame-faced way!)
> If so what intensifies, or diminsishes this consciousness
Certain patters of engagement that i might link with gender. The
most obvious are those CM people who appear to 'listen' quite
closely to others, to reply in comprehensive ways and who support
other members. Those characteristics (sorry chaps) are the ones
i identify with female CM members. But of course i'm not always
right!
>How do these factors feel, compared to other online experiences in
>the other mailing lists, newsgroups, MOOs, MUDs, IRC channels,
>ICQ etc. that you frequent?
What R U wearing? Sorry but that's pretty much my experience
of MUDS/MOOS
- Esther.
******************
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:06:05 -0800
From: Caitlin Martin
Subject: Re: gender
On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, catcher at times murmured:
> --- Caitlin Martin
>
> (about influence of gender)
>
> > Please do! I'll share, too.
Turn about being fair play, it's my turn.
> You asked for it:
>
> 1) For some reason I hadn't been menstruating for the last 4 months
> - last weekend my body decided to give it a go again. I don't mind
> the physical discomfort so much, but I hate it that my emotions are
> totally mixed up. When people aren't extremely nice, I start to cry
> - I can't think logically - I forget stuff - I feel disgustingly
> primitive: all I want to do is lay in bed and carress my tummy. I
> hate what hormones do to my brain.
heh. This I can definitely relate to although in a different way. I have
a physical condition which causes me to have extremely heavy periods. I
discovered this condition about 2 years ago when I damned near bled to
death during a period. The medical response was a kneejerk one -- have a
hysterectomy (at least I felt it was kneejerk) -- & I refused to do
that. I learned at the same time that I'm also sterile now (another side
effect of my current physical condition). It was a difficult time for me
& I was stunned by my reactions. I'd never considered myself much of a
"real girl" nor had I ever wanted another child (I have one child
already), yet suddenly the prospect of major surgery to remove my female
innards sent me in a tailspin. Likewise infertility ruffled my
tailfeathers. Suddenly all kinds of things were called into question for
me -- my sexuality, my attractiveness, aging, & on & on.
I didn't get a hysterectomy, but instead pursued other ways to tamp down
my flow to heavy but not deathly (which involved looking really hard at my
stress level, oddly enough, & making some pretty significant life changes
on that basis) & I live w/the rest. I'd like to say the experience has
made me feel celebratory on a monthly basis, but the physical realities of
it are still a hassle. I figure menopause will be pretty welcome,
although it's not something I want to hurry along. The experience itself
gave me a new set of perspectives on myself & my sexuality & my
"grrlness" (for lack of a better word).
> 2) In Flemish the only good curses are the ones that refer to male
> sexual organs - I've tried to use the feminine ones, but nobody
> understands me so they're not impressed.
Heh. English is much the same way, I think.
> 3) I hate it that (both on- and offline) people think I should be
> hurrying to find a partner because "if older women stay alone too
> long they risk not finding anyone anymore".
Oh feh. One of my grandmothers remarried in her 70's after being widowed
for over 20 years. She married for love, a man she met while traveling &
they had 10 years together before his death. My other grandmother died in
the arms of her husband of 25 years about a year or so ago. She & my
step-grandfather met in their 50s, left their respective spouses, & ran
away to San Francisco together. At assorted times in my life when I've
had the thought -- "No one will ever love me" -- I remember the two of
them & chill out.
> 4) Often when I'm just being nice to men backchannel, they assume
> I'm desperate for cybersex.
I've had that experience, too. Along with assorted other experiences that
are similar both online & offline. I wonder if men have similar
experiences. Anybody?
> 5) I think most women are bad drivers - and I don't like myself for
> thinking that.
heh. I don't drive.
> 6) Sometimes I think I'd be happier if I gave in to the "female
> image" the media present me (don't like myself for that either).
Sometimes I think that, too. Not for long, though.
As to my own experience (not mediated by your observations):
I cross a number of lines in my day-to-day life (& have for a long time):
I'm a woman in a primarily male-dominated profession (I'm a UNIX
sysadmin).
I'm a grrl gamer currently playing a girl with a sword on a MMORPG
(massively multi-player online role playing game) who's as big a "psycho
death teamer" (my boyfriend's description) as the boyz.
I'm a theatre director (those are usually male in the US).
I manage a band (also done mostly by guys, at least where I live).
On the other hand, I'm a bit of a Southern belle (okay, maybe more than a
bit) & prone yes, to leather, but also to lace. I shave my armpits & my
legs, can walk in 6-inch heels with a book on my head as well as get in &
out of a car in same w/out flashing my crotch to the world, wear
fingernail polish, & never leave the house w/out my earbobs (earrings --
in this I'm just like my late Great-Aunt Ruth, she also never left the
house w/out her earbobs).
I'm reminded during discussions like this of one of my favorite people --
male transvestite who taught me to pluck my eyebrows & put on makeup who
also fixed my boyfriend's motorcycle & car (all in the same week).
c.
******************
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:35:42 -0800
From: catcher at times
Subject: Re: gender
--- Caitlin Martin
> The medical response was a kneejerk one -- have a hysterectomy
>(at least I felt it was kneejerk) -- & I refused to do that.
Good on you!
Belgian gynaecologist's viewpoint on this: if you don't "use" your
uterus, you might as well get rid of it. This is so weird! Same with
breasts: there's a new tendency here to amputate the breast even
when there's only a suspicion of cancer. Somehow I think there's a
connection between this way of treating the female body and the fact
that most gynaecologists are men.
> I figure menopause will be pretty welcome, although it's not
something I want to hurry along.
Still, every month when my egg jumps (don't know a better term) I am
so beautiful and radiant! I'm gonna hate to miss that.
> The experience itself gave me a new set of perspectives on myself
>& my sexuality & my "grrlness" (for lack of a better word).
Wanna elaborate on this new set?
> At assorted times in my life when I've had the thought -- "No one
>will ever love me" -- I remember the two of them & chill out.
Can I borrow them for when I'm down?
(about people getting "nice" and "craving" mixed up)
> I've had that experience, too. Along with assorted other
>experiences that are similar both online & offline. I wonder
>if men have similar experiences. Anybody?
Yes - I'd like men's views on this - maybe we're all just meeting
the wrong people - we could figure out a system to match up the
craving ones so I could just be nice all of the time. ,-)
> never leave the house w/out my earbobs
Neither do I, also I wouldn't dream of going out without mascara. On
the other hand I mostly wear mountain boots.
renata
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